Article re: dishes, wrong hamburger, emotions

[maize]

I assume most blog readers are female.

So I did some googling and seems I was wrong; more male than female blog readers. Though it varies by type of blog.

[8circles]

All of these posts are spot on! It is one thing when chores are shared and one person is just picky. It is another thing completely when one person does all the chores and the others act like they live in a hotel. And as the one quote here says, if I let it go, I am only hurting myself, because the people I live with would literally NEVER do anything unless I told them. I am tired of being everybody's mommy. Trying not to do any husband bashing, but I must admit, I don't mind telling my girls what to do nearly so much as I mind having to tell DH. I am, after all, their mommy.

We aren't talking about one person doing all the work and the other doing nothing and then you freak out about the glass because its the straw that broke the camels back. The blogger was an ass who abused his wife.

 

As a parent, its your job to teach your children how to become functioning adults. Teaching them how to pick up after themselves is appropriate. Your spouse is theoretically already a functioning adult. It isn't appropriate to treat them like a child. If you have issues with your spouse regarding tidying up, you can address it like an adult, also treating your spouse like an adult. In healthy relationships this usually results in a compromise of sorts. It often requires one or both parties to work at changing habits or attitudes.

 

Leaving a glass next to the sink is not a universal sign of disrespect, even if one spouse would prefer it to be in the dishwasher instead.

[maize]

I agree that there needs to be a middle ground between acting as the family slave and trying to control the behavior of others. Where that middle ground lies will depend on the specific personalities and family dynamics involved.

 

Personally, I dislike telling people what to do, and my husband tends to get irritable if I do. I've figured out that the one thing he is usually willing to do without complaint is watch the baby or take the kids somewhere (library, park) so I can get stuff done around the house. So I accommodate him in my expectations of what he will do and he accommodates me by lowering his expectations for housekeeping and meals (there are limits to what I can manage on my own!)

 

It's not ideal, but it is a working compromise for our particular family and neither of us feels disrespected.

 

My kids are, to my delight, starting to take ownership for helping maintain their environment. My oldest three each have things they have chosen to pitch in with on a regular basis without being asked (I no more enjoy telling my kids what to do than my husband); dd12 often picks up and sweeps the living room, yesterday she cleaned the entire kitchen. Ds10 does laundry and tries to keep the basement clean. Dd8 clears and sets the table.

Edited January 25, 2016 by maize

[heartlikealion]

wait, did I miss something? The blogger was abusive? Where did that get determined? I saw people suggesting that he was but I thought it was all speculation.

[VaKim]

We aren't talking about one person doing all the work and the other doing nothing and then you freak out about the glass because its the straw that broke the camels back. The blogger was an ass who abused his wife.

 

As a parent, its your job to teach your children how to become functioning adults. Teaching them how to pick up after themselves is appropriate. Your spouse is theoretically already a functioning adult. It isn't appropriate to treat them like a child. If you have issues with your spouse regarding tidying up, you can address it like an adult, also treating your spouse like an adult. In healthy relationships this usually results in a compromise of sorts. It often requires one or both parties to work at changing habits or attitudes.

 

Leaving a glass next to the sink is not a universal sign of disrespect, even if one spouse would prefer it to be in the dishwasher instead.

Well, sorry I was talking about the "wrong thing." But I had no desire to investigate the blogger's life and was only addressing what many other posters in this thread did happen to be talking about. 

 

In an ideal world, things would work like you say. But not everybody lives in an ideal world. And as has been said on this board many times, just because you raise your children a particular way does not mean they are going to turn out that way!

 

And sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do to keep the peace. But that doesn't mean you have to like it. When you ask another adult to please do something (assuming reasonable and not picky), and they huff and puff and pout and act like you asked them to stand on their head in a tub of water, you eventually give up on asking.

Edited January 25, 2016 by VaKim

[8circles]

Well, sorry I was talking about the "wrong thing." But I had no desire to investigate the blogger's life and was only addressing what many other posters in this thread did happen to be talking about.

 

In an ideal world, things would work like you say. But not everybody lives in an ideal world. And as has been said on this board many times, just because you raise your children a particular way does not mean they are going to turn out that way!

Of course they don't always turn out that way. What does that have to do with anything here?

 

People who say if it bothers you, you should clean it are responding to the literal comments, attitudes, and implications that leaving a glass out is disrespectful and its obvious.

 

It isnt automatically disrespectful to leave a glass out at all, even if in someone's particular case it was.

Edited January 25, 2016 by 8circles

[8circles]

!

 

And sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do to keep the peace. But that doesn't mean you have to like it. When you ask another adult to please do something (assuming reasonable and not picky), and they huff and puff and pout and act like you asked them to stand on their head in a tub of water, you eventually give up on asking.

I'm sorry that someone in your home treats you badly. You would probably benefit from some sort of counseling to help you come to some mutually agreeable solutions.

[VaKim]

I'm sorry that someone in your home treats you badly. You would probably benefit from some sort of counseling to help you come to some mutually agreeable solutions.

Not necessary. I deal with it. Just like my mom, my mom-in-law, and nearly every other woman I know in "real life." That doesn't mean I don't ever complain. Complaining is my therapy. 

 

I am not intending to paint a picture of an unhappy woman who goes around thinking about how mistreated she is all the time. Most of the time, I just do things and don't think about it. But when people are discussing such things, I like to commiserate. I am sure it is human nature.

 

And I don't even have a dishwasher.  :tongue_smilie:

Edited January 25, 2016 by VaKim

[Samm]

wait, did I miss something? The blogger was abusive? Where did that get determined? I saw people suggesting that he was but I thought it was all speculation.

 

Just from his most recent Jan 20 post:

 

“I love how your way is so perfect and righteous, and my way is bullshit and makes your life miserable all the time,†I more-or-less said during several fights, feigning self-righteousness in a totally immature and belligerent tone. “If you’re so miserable living with me, why don’t you file the fucking papers and go find your new magic husband you’ll love being with so much more than me!â€

 

This is like throwing the allegorical glass several times at her face and expecting her to pick it up and put in in the dishwasher each time (and to ignore her face).

 

You don't throw glassware at people's faces and you don't reform yourself  by choosing to honor glassware you find ridiculous either.  By his analyses, his new love could be an embezzling money laundress and he would have to 'choose love'  by honoring the means to launder dirty money or some such.  

 

I hope he and his followers enjoy a good life.  That's all I can say.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Samm

[Guest]

The silver lining in all this arguing is that so many people think their marriages are successful enough to emulate <3 Unlike the blogger from the OP, who thought his mistakes were bad enough to avoid. /very good news.

[Cindy in FL.]

wait, did I miss something? The blogger was abusive? Where did that get determined? I saw people suggesting that he was but I thought it was all speculation.

I went back and read the blog post again, because based on some of the posts in this thread I must have missed something. I guess I'm still missing it. I don't see the abuse. I see a guy that thinks that if he had done a better job knowing/loving/respecting his partner then his marriage wouldn't necessarily have ended the way it did. It wasn't even about the glass ultimately.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Cindy in FL.

[heartlikealion]

Just from his most recent Jan 20 post:

 

“I love how your way is so perfect and righteous, and my way is bullshit and makes your life miserable all the time,†I more-or-less said during several fights, feigning self-righteousness in a totally immature and belligerent tone. “If you’re so miserable living with me, why don’t you file the fucking papers and go find your new magic husband you’ll love being with so much more than me!â€

 

This is like throwing the allegorical glass several times at her face and expecting her to pick it up and put in in the dishwasher each time (and to ignore her face).

 

You don't throw glassware at people's faces and you don't reform yourself  by choosing to honor glassware you find ridiculous either.  By his analyses, his new love could be an embezzling money laundress and he would have to 'choose love'  by honoring the means to launder dirty money or some such.  

 

I hope he and his followers enjoy a good life.  That's all I can say.

I'm wondering if reading these words is supposed to shock me. She could have been yelling, "ugh, with the f'n glass again?! How hard is it to reach your arm over one foot and open the dishwasher? Heck, sometimes it's OPEN and you don't even put it in there." I mean really, we have no idea the back and forth that occurred leading up to this. They could have been equally abusive. I'm tempted to put abusive in quotes, but that's because I feel pretty desensitized by the notion of this or could imagine much worse.

[heartlikealion]

I went back and read the blog post again, because based on some of the posts in this thread I must have missed something. I guess I'm still missing it. I don't see the abuse. I see a guy that thinks that if he had done a better job knowing/loving/respecting his partner then his marriage wouldn't necessarily have ended then way it did. It wasn't even about the glass ultimately.

Someone updated with some info from the blogger's blog that wasn't included in the original link. I still have no idea how she spoke to him so it's a little harder for me to paint a picture of the dynamic. Not saying those words are healthy, though.

[Cindy in FL.]

Just from his most recent Jan 20 post:

 

“I love how your way is so perfect and righteous, and my way is bullshit and makes your life miserable all the time,†I more-or-less said during several fights, feigning self-righteousness in a totally immature and belligerent tone. “If you’re so miserable living with me, why don’t you file the fucking papers and go find your new magic husband you’ll love being with so much more than me!â€

 

This is like throwing the allegorical glass several times at her face and expecting her to pick it up and put in in the dishwasher each time (and to ignore her face).

 

You don't throw glassware at people's faces and you don't reform yourself by choosing to honor glassware you find ridiculous either. By his analyses, his new love could be an embezzling money laundress and he would have to 'choose love' by honoring the means to launder dirty money or some such.

 

I hope he and his followers enjoy a good life. That's all I can say.

I don't get this at all from reading the Jan 20 blog post. I must need reading comprehension training! He says feigning self-righteousness, immature, belligerent. He knows he was a jerk. ,he's sorry about it. He thinks he'd be a better husband now for what he's learned by going through the loss of his marriage. Hopefully he's apologized to his ex!

Edited January 25, 2016 by Cindy in FL.

[marbel]

We aren't talking about one person doing all the work and the other doing nothing and then you freak out about the glass because its the straw that broke the camels back. The blogger was an ass who abused his wife.

 

As a parent, its your job to teach your children how to become functioning adults. Teaching them how to pick up after themselves is appropriate. Your spouse is theoretically already a functioning adult. It isn't appropriate to treat them like a child. If you have issues with your spouse regarding tidying up, you can address it like an adult, also treating your spouse like an adult. In healthy relationships this usually results in a compromise of sorts. It often requires one or both parties to work at changing habits or attitudes.

 

Leaving a glass next to the sink is not a universal sign of disrespect, even if one spouse would prefer it to be in the dishwasher instead.

 

Yes.

 

I expect different things from my husband than from my kids. 

 

If my kids leave their plates on the kitchen table, they have to go back and deal with it (put it in the dishwasher or the sink if the dishwasher is running or full of clean dishes, etc). 

 

If my husband leaves his plate on the kitchen table, it's most likely because he ate and then had to run out to a meeting.  I'm not going to hassle him about his dishes.

 

My kids mostly see their dad clearing up his plates. When they were younger, they might have asked why I make them clear the table, but not dad.  It's not hard to explain why dad gets a pass sometimes but they do not.  They can understand that.

 

I tell them what to do as part of child training.  I ask my husband to do certain things because when he does not do them,  my job as homemaker is harder.  He can understand that and complies, mostly.  I try to make his life as paycheck-earner easier too. 

 

But sometimes we still manage to annoy each other.  :-)

 

 

[LucyStoner]

I'm sorry to be so obtuse, truly. But I don't get it. What does it look like to not afford to forget about a glass left out?

Are you talking about people who can't afford dishes? Is it a reminder to be thankful for what we have?

Well, here's an example:

 

I am the cook in the family. I cook 2-3 meals most every day. I can't afford to have the kitchen be a disaster because then, when I go in to cook for everyone, I have I spend 30-60 minutes cleaning up before I can start cooking. And then I am exhausted, hangry and not able to get the non kitchen crap I need to do or want to do done. Not as a matter of preference, as a matter of "I can't keep the meal train moving in a wreck" and "I can't do everything associated with the kitchen alone and still have time for my own mental pursuits."

 

I don't have the option to just get takeout all the time.

 

I don't have the option to not feed kids who lose their ever loving minds when hungry and who have food restrictions.

 

I don't have the option of working around a big mess because there's nowhere else to work.

 

I don't have the option of hiring someone to do the work for me.

 

I don't have the option of just letting messes sit because chaos comes at a high price in a home where more than one person has anxiety and ASD.

 

I'm not especially demanding and I have worked hard to overcome clinical OCD as well as break my associations between messes and my highly unsafe childhood. But everyone in this house knows that the dirty dishes need to (for the most part) be in the dishwasher or scraped and to the *right of the sink* for the next meal to be easy to prepare. Because if I am cooking, I should not have to clean up in order to do that. I am a person with my own goals that do not involve being a chore lackey. And because working together we do mostly keep the kitchen in the agreed on condition, when it's not and I do need to tidy before cooking, I know that's an exception to the rule and not their expected norm (perhaps due to illness or an extra load at school and/or work).

 

It is a privilege to just have food ready for you but not have to be involved in any bit of the work associated with that. If you leave your towel where it falls and never have to concern yourself with who is picking it up and hanging it or washing it for you so it's dry or cleaned the next time you need it, that is a privilege. If you leave your glasses wherever but never have to find them molding over, that is a privilege. If you are the one in the house to whom all of the menial cleaning tasks fall, you won't have adequete time for rest or your own work or other goals.

 

I feel like while I see both sides of this conversation, there's a common thread that is bothering me and that is that people who need things to be sanitary and tidy (not neat as a pin, just sanitary and comfortable for all) are being labeled as unreasonable control freaks who should not have their whims catered too. Bluntly, people may have all sorts of reasons they can't live in a mess and those reasons are certainly no less real or valid than someone having EF deficits. I accomodate my husband's rather serious EF deficits- because I love him, understand that he has ADHD and because he's an awesome dude I am happy to be married to. It's not at all unreasonable that he accomodates some of my quirks and preferences as someone who grew up in filth and can't handle anything approaching that now. Because he loves me, because he understands my background and mental health picture and because I am a pretty awesome chick he's happy to be married to. If he just told me it it was my job to accommodate his EF deficits or whims to just leave his stuff wherever but that my desire for an orderly living space was something he was doing me a favor by disregarding and not "indulging", I'd be wondering how the frack I married a jerk.

 

Also because I am a damn fine cook. ;)

Edited January 25, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Carol in Cal.]

We aren't talking about one person doing all the work and the other doing nothing and then you freak out about the glass because its the straw that broke the camels back.

Actually, a lot of us ARE talking about exactly that.

There are multiple posts in this thread that stipulate that exact scenario, critically.

[8circles]

Actually, a lot of us ARE talking about exactly that.

There are multiple posts in this thread that stipulate that exact scenario, critically.

 

Yes.  But the people who are saying if it bothers you, clean it yourself are NOT talking about one cleaner & one slob.  If you are refusing to read the thread & hear what people are actually saying, I don't know what to tell you.  The WE I'm talking about are the ones who are being accused of advocating dormat-marriage.

 

It seems like people are responding here without actually having even read the blog post.  That's really frustrating.

Edited January 25, 2016 by 8circles

[LucyStoner]

What I don't understand is why people would allow themselves to be responsible for all the menial cleaning tasks ( unless they are single parenting with young children ).

 

I mean, I did not marry a house. I am not a housewife. The house is not my job. I make time for my own work, rest and other goals. Nobody except myself ( and a crying baby! ) is responsible if I choose the house over my time.

Exactly. I don't. At all. You carry your weight in this home. But if my husband refused to work with me and just chalked my need for a minimum level of cleanliness up to control freak OCD that he should just ignore for my own good? Or used his ADHD as an excuse to never clean the damn kitchen? That would be untenable. And yeah, it would feel pretty disrepectful of him. So I get why people are saying its disrespectful. Edited January 25, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Carol in Cal.]

Yes.  But the people who are saying if it bothers you, clean it yourself are NOT talking about one cleaner & one slob.  If you are refusing to read the thread & hear what people are actually saying, I don't know what to tell you.  The WE I'm talking about are the ones who are being accused of advocating dormat-marriage.

 

It seems like people are responding here without actually having even read the blog post.  That's really frustrating.

See, this is where I feel like the thread is going in circles.

There are lots of posts that postulate a preferred nuanced position of mutual respect; in fact, I have made a few of those myself.  But to deny the possibility that the blog post could easily be read to refer to the prototypical 'I'm the guy so housework is beneath me' attitude is lacking in basic reading comprehension, and that attitude in general needs to be surfaced and dealt with.

[Carol in Cal.]

Here is the crux of the blog post:

"But I remember my wife often saying how exhausting it was for her to have to tell me what to do all the time. It’s why the sexiest thing a man can say to his partner is “I got this,†and then take care of whatever needs taken care of.

I always reasoned: “If you just tell me what you want me to do, I’ll gladly do it.â€

But she didn’t want to be my mother. She wanted to be my partner, and she wanted me to apply all of my intelligence and learning capabilities to the logistics of managing our lives and household.

She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management."

[8circles]

Well, here's an example:

 

I am the cook in the family. I cook 2-3 meals most every day. I can't afford to have the kitchen be a disaster because then, when I go in to cook for everyone, I have I spend 30-60 minutes cleaning up before I can start cooking. And then I am exhausted, hangry and not able to get the non kitchen crap I need to do or want to do done. Not as a matter of preference, as a matter of "I can't keep the meal train moving in a wreck" and "I can't do everything associated with the kitchen alone and still have time for my own mental pursuits."

 

I don't have the option to just get takeout all the time.

 

I don't have the option to not feed kids who lose their ever loving minds when hungry and who have food restrictions.

 

I don't have the option of working around a big mess because there's nowhere else to work.

 

I don't have the option of hiring someone to do the work for me.

 

I don't have the option of just letting messes sit because chaos comes at a high price in a home where more than one person has anxiety and ASD.

 

I'm not especially demanding and I have worked hard to overcome clinical OCD as well as break my associations between messes and my highly unsafe childhood. But everyone in this house knows that the dirty dishes need to (for the most part) be in the dishwasher or scraped and to the *right of the sink* for the next meal to be easy to prepare. Because if I am cooking, I should not have to clean up in order to do that. I am a person with my own goals that do not involve being a chore lackey. And because working together we do mostly keep the kitchen in the agreed on condition, when it's not and I do need to tidy before cooking, I know that's an exception to the rule and not their expected norm (perhaps due to illness or an extra load at school and/or work).

 

It is a privilege to just have food ready for you but not have to be involved in any bit of the work associated with that. If you leave your towel where it falls and never have to concern yourself with who is picking it up and hanging it or washing it for you so it's dry or cleaned the next time you need it, that is a privilege. If you leave your glasses wherever but never have to find them molding over, that is a privilege. If you are the one in the house to whom all of the menial cleaning tasks fall, you won't have adequete time for rest or your own work or other goals.

 

I feel like while I see both sides of this conversation, there's a common thread that is bothering me and that is that people who need things to be sanitary and tidy (not neat as a pin, just sanitary and comfortable for all) are being labeled as unreasonable control freaks who should not have their whims catered too. Bluntly, people may have all sorts of reasons they can't live in a mess and those reasons are certainly no less real or valid than someone having EF deficits. I accomodate my husband's rather serious EF deficits- because I love him, understand that he has ADHD and because he's an awesome dude I am happy to be married to. It's not at all unreasonable that he accomodates some of my quirks and preferences as someone who grew up in filth and can't handle anything approaching that now. Because he loves me, because he understands my background and mental health picture and because I am a pretty awesome chick he's happy to be married to. If he just told me it it was my job to accommodate his EF deficits or whims to just leave his stuff wherever but that my desire for an orderly living space was something he was doing me a favor by disregarding and not "indulging", I'd be wondering how the frack I married a jerk.

 

Also because I am a damn fine cook. ;)

 

Admittedly, I'm reading this amidst the lunchtime chaos here, so I'm only going to comment on the bolded right now.  I agree with what you're saying - because what you're talking about it balance.  I think lots of people are also talking about balance but it is being ignored.  

 

As I've said before, people can be abusive to their spouse on either side of this argument.  We've had personal examples of both of these in this thread.  People also need to work on their own issues, on either side of this argument.  Sometimes needing the glass to be in the dishwasher is a symptom of a bigger problem & it should be worked on when possible.  Sometimes not ever putting the glass in the dishwasher is a symptom of a bigger problem that should be worked on when possible.

[8circles]

See, this is where I feel like the thread is going in circles.

There are lots of posts that postulate a preferred nuanced position of mutual respect; in fact, I have made a few of those myself.  But to deny the possibility that the blog post could easily be read to refer to the prototypical 'I'm the guy so housework is beneath me' attitude is lacking in basic reading comprehension, and that attitude in general needs to be surfaced and dealt with.

 

I think it could certainly be taken that way.  I read the whole blog post, and a few others.  I think he's an ass who is using his "this is how guys are" excuse to cover for his assholesness.  

 

Only assholes think "eat shit, wife".

[LucyStoner]

Dunno. I guess.

 

I suppose it's either untenable, your spouse changes, or you change.

 

It's just always so much easier to change your own expectations, than it is to change other people.

No Sadie, it is not easy to change one's need for a sanitary home. The person who is fine with the mess is not more entitled to their way. I married a man who is willing to be a full partner domestically. But choosing to live in chaos is actually not an option, for many reasons. It is stressful to me and it is stressful for my son with ASD. That stress is real and doesn't need to just be "gotten over". Even if I wanted to, I couldn't fully. It's not for lack of trying.

 

It's really not for you to judge what someone else needs to feel safe and sane and happy.

[maize]

I am not trying to frame ADHD as an excuse; I am trying to help those without personal experience with executive function difficulties understand that (pardon the caps for emphasis, I'm on my phone and don't know how to do italics) THEY ARE REAL. For some of us, forgetfulness, distractedness, inattentiveness etc. have nothing to do with attitude or entitlement; they are simply the reality of our lives. If you ascribe motivations of disrespect or entitlement to our EF lapses you're wasting your energy and profoundly misunderstanding our reality.

 

May I use an analogy? My SIL is blind, and her blindness has profound effects on her family life. There are many things she can't do as well or as quickly as the average person, and some things she can't do at all. Would it be accurate or fair for her husband to attribute these deficits to her character or attitude? Suggest she shouldn't use her blindness as an excuse for, say, not driving the kids to school? Not properly sorting the laundry? Assume that if she just cared enough she could pick up and sort the toys as quickly as him? We all see the preposterousness of such assumptions. I submit to you that expecting a person with executive function deficits to act as if they had no such deficits is just as preposterous as expecting a blind person to act as a sighted person.

 

Now, the flip side. Would it be fair or right for my SIL to say: "I'm blind, therefore I am exempt from all household responsibilities and the rest of the family just had to deal with it"? Of course not! Blindness is not the totality of her being. There are a great many things SIL can and does do to contribute to the family and household. In some cases, she just needs to find a different way of doing things--maybe set up a system of identifying and sorting clothes that does not require sight, maybe arranging for carpools or a hired driver to get her kids to activities that she coordinates. The person with ADHD has an equal responsibility to work around his or her disabilities and to find ways to contribute positively to the household.

Edited January 25, 2016 by maize

[Guest]

The person with ADHD has an equal responsibility to work around his or her disabilities and to find ways to contribute positively to the household.

 

 

Right. So when someone tells the add person that they are dropping the ball some way...offering help, but having their own healthy, sane, logical boundaries on behalf of themselves and other family members..... getting super defensive about does nothing but erode the relationship.

 

Telling them you need something from them for whatever personal reason is between the two spouses and not for outsiders to judge is NOT the same as "expecting a person with executive function deficits to act as if they had no such deficits."

[maize]

Right. So when someone tells the add person that they are dropping the ball some way...offering help, but having their own healthy, sane, logical boundaries on behalf of themselves and other family members..... getting super defensive about does nothing but erode the relationship.

 

Telling them you need something from them for whatever personal reason is between the two spouses and not for outsiders to judge is NOT the same as "expecting a person with executive function deficits to act as if they had no such deficits."

I don't think I have argued otherwise.

 

I have argued against the idea that someone with EF issues drops the ball in, say, remembering to put things in the dishwasher, because they are coming from a position of privilege and assume someone else will pick up after them. A spouse who assumes such of their ADHD partner is likely to end up banging their head against a brick wall trying to change an attitude when attitude is not the problem. Same result if the spouse thinks that telling the person will or ought to result in them never forgetting again.

[Guest]

I don't think I have argued otherwise.

 

I have argued against the idea that someone with EF issues drops the ball in, say, remembering to put things in the dishwasher, because they are coming from a position of privilege and assume someone else will pick up after them. A spouse who assumes such of their ADHD partner is likely to end up banging their head against a brick wall trying to change an attitude when attitude is not the problem. Same result if the spouse thinks that telling the person will or ought to result in them never forgetting again.

 

Oh. I know.

 

But none of that negates the reasonable nature of the original request.

 

Have you read The ADHD Effect and Is It You, Me Or ADHD?

[maize]

Oh. I know.

 

But none of that negates the reasonable nature of the original request.

 

Have you read The ADHD Effect and Is It You, Me Or ADHD?

I haven't, I'll take a look when I have time.

[heartlikealion]

I never gave EF any thought really til this thread. Definitely food for thought. Dh and ds might both be ADD (or ADHD).

[Guest]

I haven't, I'll take a look when I have time.

 

When you have time. lol :laugh: :laugh: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: 

[heartlikealion]

I just got one of those books with my audible credit. Thanks!!

[Tsuga]

Whoa. That's a whole lot of judgment. I'm nearly positive even selfless missionaries to Ghana find a proverbial cup at some point in their relationships.

 

Yes, I'm judging her really, really hard.

 

I think she was a terrible person to do that to him.

 

"I didn't get my way with the cup so I'm leaving you and it's your fault because I made that my love language."

 

I am judging that so hard.

 

It's horrible, horrible to do to someone and I know because it's been done to me. You have to be destroyed as a person, like that blogger--"Now I can see that I didn't love her because I didn't do what she wanted with the cup" and come back "Wait, I AM lovable and there ARE women who will love me in spite of the fact that I don't do the dishes in the order they want, I AM LOVEABLE" to fully appreciate the anger you feel at someone hurting you like that.

 

And there seems to be a huge, huge assumption throughout this thread:

 

There is a right way to do the dishes, a right way to want a house, and if you don't want it that way and prioritize it, then you're sick.

 

 

But this brings me to another key point. Quite frankly, I think compatibility is massively underrated in today's society. One thing that I discovered with my partner is how important it is to simply be with someone who agrees with you, and whom you agree with. Like, it solves 99.9% of problems when you literally never have to argue about anything because you agree.

 

People say marriage is about work. And I do think there is a lot to work on when you are living with someone who you think is basically broken, disordered. How much you have to put up with!

 

Whereas, if you are living with someone like you, who loves you for who you are, you can both forget your keys and forgive one another. See, my partner forgets his keys and so do I. So we can really love each other not "in spite of the fact that you have a disorder" but seriously--just, the key thing is not even a factor in the equation. (Oh, how my ex-husband loved to tell me all the sacrifices he made to save our marriage because I was thinking about things other than the damn keys! How he loved to put me down about that!)

 

If you live with someone else who doesn't care about the dishes, you can just go out to the show or go to the beach with the dishes sitting there. "Hurry, or we'll miss the sunset!" You can truly enjoy that person and not just "love them in spite of the fact that their mental disorder caused them not to understand that really, they should have done the dishes first". No, instead it is this pure joy in compatibility, "My god, how happy I am! How happy I am to have found someone who loves me!" You cannot imagine, if you are currently being loved "even though."

 

I mean, if you've ever been on the receiving end of that type of "love", you can understand how much it hurts. It doesn't feel like the kind of love that makes you happy.

 

And I think that what I keep hearing again and again is,

 

"But listen, Tsuga, you just have no idea what a pain in the a** you are. If you knew that, you'd agree that 'I love you even though you're broken' is the best you can ask for. I'm actually being nice with that. And you're a jerk to expect to be loved for who you are."

 

Well I have found better, myself. And I'm sorry I ever settled for "love even though you really aren't as awesome as I'd like".

 

Because remember, in that article, it wasn't that she resignedly came to a compromise in which she did something for him so he did the cup. No, she decided it meant he didn't love her, so she left. I'm not talking about asking someone to take up a chore chart because "Look babe, you don't need that done but I do, in order to cook, so please let's do this system." I am ALL for that. Or it wasn't that she said, that bothers me but I'm going to let it go. She just couldn't let it go. She had to choose the cup.

 

No, I am talking about the whole "if you don't do what I want it means you don't love me" thing.

 

 

 

She wanted me to figure out all of the things that need done, and devise my own method of task management.

 

But he had.

 

It wasn't as if he had been evicted from home after home due to hoarding and unsanitary conditions.

 

His standards just didn't match hers. She wanted him to figure out that she was right.

 

I get where Katie is coming from but to me, that is just saying--if you marry someone whose standards of cleanliness and idea of order are fundamentally and diametrically opposed to yours, then you are going to have to do a whole lot of work if you want to stay married.

 

And I would agree that is true.

 

However, this is where my marriage advice will differ from the (admittedly crappy) marriage advice I got. I was told, "Marriage is work! Marriage is a team!" I will tell my kids, "Marriage should be a joy--you should marry a person whose style of housekeeping, whose main aims in life, whose general interests and standards align with yours. Otherwise you will constantly be having to work at figuring out how to balance the different priorities, and that is work and it's not fun, and it takes a lot of goodwill. And you will never, ever, ever fundamentally change either one of you and you will never, ever, ever, get to completely be yourself. Marry your best friend. Don't think about how much you can put up with. Find someone you really, really like!"

 

Nobody in this world needs a spouse who merely puts up with them. That is the cruelest thing you can do to a person: pretend to love them and then bring it out, how you're just putting up with them. Lord your love all over them. "I love you even though... but you don't love be because you don't do what I need done."

 

I guess I didn't know how little I had settled for, in terms of love, until I met my partner. I think he actually loves me... not in spite of, but the real me. And I love the real him. For two people who up until the age of 33 had only been "loved" "even though", finding love that is love that comes from joy and which doesn't involve personal sacrifice brought tears to our eyes. What a relief!

 

I think people underestimate that a lot.

 

And for those who aren't talking about love, per se, but family functioning--well, all I can say is, that's different, because this poor sap had his wife tell him he didn't love her and then left him. That is not the same thing as saying, "I'm irritated at my husband because we came to a housework compromise since the baby came, I'm staying home but he's doing dinner, and he's not keeping up his end of the deal, help" type thing. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Tsuga

[Cindy in FL.]

No Sadie, it is not easy to change one's need for a sanitary home. The person who is fine with the mess is not more entitled to their way. I married a man who is willing to be a full partner domestically. But choosing to live in chaos is actually not an option, for many reasons. It is stressful to me and it is stressful for my son with ASD. That stress is real and doesn't need to just be "gotten over". Even if I wanted to, I couldn't fully. It's not for lack of trying.

 

It's really not for you to judge what someone else needs to feel safe and sane and happy.

For me, dirt and clutter make me feel edgy and not at peace. It's almost like noise in my head. I know that sounds kind of crazy, but there it is! Over the years, I have gotten better about allowing my family to "live" in their own home. I have learned to compromise in the ways that I can and they have learned to be neater than they naturally are. Sometimes that means I make someone's bed or pick up their clothes because it matters to me and not them. Sometimes it means they do it to help mom out. It is something that I could never just get over, though!

[LucyStoner]

Golly.

 

Anything else you'd like to get off your chest ?

 

Different people can have different perspectives on these things.

 

I am not judging you or your family, whom I don't know from Adam. Do what suits you.

Sadie, all I was pointing out is that your opinion as a leaver of cups isn't necessarily anymore valid or as you characterized it, healthy, than someone who is uncomfortable with mess.

 

I think it's abundantly clear that my husband and I work together in a positive manner that respects both of us, rather than one person's preferences, quirks and needs being dismissed as habits they need to break. That's an equitable, healthy and non-abusive marriage. Not deriding one person's feelings about neatness as neurotic or unhealthy.

 

You have a history of being quite sensitive to what others say but apparently don't seem to consider it valid for others to be sensitive to your words and gross overgeneralizations and sweeping assertions. Maybe I am mistaking your meaning somewhere but you are definitely not coming across for most of this thread to me as someone who is respectful opinions you don't share.

Edited January 25, 2016 by LucyStoner

[8circles]

Sadie, all I was pointing out is that your opinion as a leaver of cups isn't necessarily anymore valid or as you characterized it, healthy, than someone who is uncomfortable with mess.

 

 

I don't understand why it's assumed that someone who leaves cups by the sink is comfortable with mess or has really low standards or lives in squalor.

 

All of those things have been said in this thread.

 

I am a cup-leaver.  I am not comfortable with mess, even though with 4 boys home all day, we have mess.  We do not live in squalor - every surface in the entire house with the exception of the basement & garage is cleaned at least weekly, many daily.  My children have clean clothes on a daily basis, maybe once or twice a year we get behind enough that there is a laundry "emergency".  My children get food daily, 3 times even, cooked in a clean although sometimes cluttered kitchen.  

[fraidycat]

I don't get it.

 

I think it's incredibly crappy to demand that someone else turns into you and adopts your priorities to feel loved.

 

"Nope, sorry, you still don't love me--not if you left that cup by the sink!"

 

I would put up with anything and get over anything other than hitting for a marriage.

 

A cup? Just get over it. You literally left your husband because you couldn't feel loved without his doing exactly what you wanted with your cups. I don't care if you needed cup placement to feel loved. Was that in your vows?

 

Now he knows:

 

"In order to be loved, I can't really have my own priorities. I have to have hers."

 

Bullcrap.

 

Neither my partner nor I believe this--having lived with people who did--and we are extremely happy together. Mainly because we can be our real selves. So he wants the floor mopped just so. Okay. So I want the table cleared just so. Put on your big girl panties little doll and accept that loving you doesn't mean doing whatever you want.

 

And if a cup is that important to you, get the hell over yourself. No, really. You are not a flipping princess. Go on a mission trip to Ghana for a year, come back, and tell me how you can't feel loved if he doesn't put his cup where you want.

 

There are cups by the sink right now. We have people over frequently. I'll let you all know when we all die of consumption, lack of love. This is not a life or death issue no matter what you want to believe.

 

You don't get to tell yourself that because you don't get what you want, that means he doesn't love you so you can leave.

 

That's not what love is!!!

 

She did leave him over a cup. She decided that his behavior about that cup was what would, in her mind, show her love. It could have been literally anything. His job, anything she wanted, she could have said, "I just feel like if I don't get my way you aren't listening and agreeing and that means you don't love me."

Holy burning flames of anger. And poor comprehension.

 

The blog post is not written by the screaming shrew of an ex-wife about the effing glass he didn't put away.

 

It is written BY THE MAN. It is HIS realization that her request was NOT UNREASONABLE, but his own (admitted) IMMATURE reaction was.

 

How you can judge the woman in this example as being "bullshit" and "overly demanding" is beyond me. Just because he takes responsibility, does not mean she was an abusive overlord who created a submissive little mouse to take responsibility. Maybe he really was a jerk who deserved it. By his own admission that seems to be the case here.

 

And again. The glass is only symbolic of all the ways this dude did not honor and respect the other human he was living with. She did not leave JUST BECAUSE OF A GLASS. Guaranteed.

Edited January 25, 2016 by fraidycat

[8circles]

Yes, I'm judging her really, really hard.

 

I think she was a terrible person to do that to him.

 

"I didn't get my way with the cup so I'm leaving you and it's your fault because I made that my love language."

 

I am judging that so hard.

 

It's horrible, horrible to do to someone and I know because it's been done to me. You have to be destroyed as a person, like that blogger--"Now I can see that I didn't love her because I didn't do what she wanted with the cup" and come back "Wait, I AM lovable and there ARE women who will love me in spite of the fact that I don't do the dishes in the order they want, I AM LOVEABLE" to fully appreciate the anger you feel at someone hurting you like that.

 

And there seems to be a huge, huge assumption throughout this thread:

 

There is a right way to do the dishes, a right way to want a house, and if you don't want it that way and prioritize it, then you're sick.

 

 

But this brings me to another key point. Quite frankly, I think compatibility is massively underrated in today's society. One thing that I discovered with my partner is how important it is to simply be with someone who agrees with you, and whom you agree with. Like, it solves 99.9% of problems when you literally never have to argue about anything because you agree.

 

People say marriage is about work. And I do think there is a lot to work on when you are living with someone who you think is basically broken, disordered. How much you have to put up with!

 

Whereas, if you are living with someone like you, who loves you for who you are, you can both forget your keys and forgive one another. See, my partner forgets his keys and so do I. So we can really love each other not "in spite of the fact that you have a disorder" but seriously--just, the key thing is not even a factor in the equation. (Oh, how my ex-husband loved to tell me all the sacrifices he made to save our marriage because I was thinking about things other than the damn keys! How he loved to put me down about that!)

 

If you live with someone else who doesn't care about the dishes, you can just go out to the show or go to the beach with the dishes sitting there. "Hurry, or we'll miss the sunset!" You can truly enjoy that person and not just "love them in spite of the fact that their mental disorder caused them not to understand that really, they should have done the dishes first". No, instead it is this pure joy in compatibility, "My god, how happy I am! How happy I am to have found someone who loves me!" You cannot imagine, if you are currently being loved "even though."

 

I mean, if you've ever been on the receiving end of that type of "love", you can understand how much it hurts. It doesn't feel like the kind of love that makes you happy.

 

And I think that what I keep hearing again and again is,

 

"But listen, Tsuga, you just have no idea what a pain in the a** you are. If you knew that, you'd agree that 'I love you even though you're broken' is the best you can ask for. I'm actually being nice with that. And you're a jerk to expect to be loved for who you are."

 

Well I have found better, myself. And I'm sorry I ever settled for "love even though you really aren't as awesome as I'd like".

 

Because remember, in that article, it wasn't that she resignedly came to a compromise in which she did something for him so he did the cup. No, she decided it meant he didn't love her, so she left. I'm not talking about asking someone to take up a chore chart because "Look babe, you don't need that done but I do, in order to cook, so please let's do this system." I am ALL for that. Or it wasn't that she said, that bothers me but I'm going to let it go. She just couldn't let it go. She had to choose the cup.

 

No, I am talking about the whole "if you don't do what I want it means you don't love me" thing.

 

 

But he had.

 

It wasn't as if he had been evicted from home after home due to hoarding and unsanitary conditions.

 

His standards just didn't match hers. She wanted him to figure out that she was right.

 

I get where Katie is coming from but to me, that is just saying--if you marry someone whose standards of cleanliness and idea of order are fundamentally and diametrically opposed to yours, then you are going to have to do a whole lot of work if you want to stay married.

 

And I would agree that is true.

 

However, this is where my marriage advice will differ from the (admittedly crappy) marriage advice I got. I was told, "Marriage is work! Marriage is a team!" I will tell my kids, "Marriage should be a joy--you should marry a person whose style of housekeeping, whose main aims in life, whose general interests and standards align with yours. Otherwise you will constantly be having to work at figuring out how to balance the different priorities, and that is work and it's not fun, and it takes a lot of goodwill. And you will never, ever, ever fundamentally change either one of you and you will never, ever, ever, get to completely be yourself. Marry your best friend. Don't think about how much you can put up with. Find someone you really, really like!"

 

Nobody in this world needs a spouse who merely puts up with them. That is the cruelest thing you can do to a person: pretend to love them and then bring it out, how you're just putting up with them. Lord your love all over them. "I love you even though... but you don't love be because you don't do what I need done."

 

I guess I didn't know how little I had settled for, in terms of love, until I met my partner. I think he actually loves me... not in spite of, but the real me. And I love the real him. For two people who up until the age of 33 had only been "loved" "even though", finding love that is love that comes from joy and which doesn't involve personal sacrifice brought tears to our eyes. What a relief!

 

I think people underestimate that a lot.

 

And for those who aren't talking about love, per se, but family functioning--well, all I can say is, that's different, because this poor sap had his wife tell him he didn't love her and then left him. That is not the same thing as saying, "I'm irritated at my husband because we came to a housework compromise since the baby came, I'm staying home but he's doing dinner, and he's not keeping up his end of the deal, help" type thing. 

 

I'm not sure if you are painting an accurate picture of the blogger's ex-wife but I think what you are actually saying is spot-on.  I think it's applicable to anyone who thinks leaving a glass out is disrespectful or somehow symbolizes love.

[LucyStoner]

I don't understand why it's assumed that someone who leaves cups by the sink is comfortable with mess or has really low standards or lives in squalor.

 

All of those things have been said in this thread.

 

I am a cup-leaver. I am not comfortable with mess, even though with 4 boys home all day, we have mess. We do not live in squalor - every surface in the entire house with the exception of the basement & garage is cleaned at least weekly, many daily. My children have clean clothes on a daily basis, maybe once or twice a year we get behind enough that there is a laundry "emergency". My children get food daily, 3 times even, cooked in a clean although sometimes cluttered kitchen.

I am not assuming that. I was using an example that Sadie used- her husband being upset that she left cups around the house. Not by the sink. I leave my cups by the sink too. ;). All I am saying is that someone who is stressed by messes left here and there has just as a valid claim to quirks and limitations as the person with EF issues. It's unhealthy to frame one person's preferences as neurotic crap they need to get over and the other's as totally understandable EF limitations.

 

In our home, to the best of our ability, we don't leave personal messes for others to clean up. Because if we did, the shit hits the fan stress wise. And fast. It has a palpable impact on my sons' behavior and my own level of energy.

Edited January 26, 2016 by LucyStoner

[fraidycat]

To be fair to Tsuga, I think she's just expressing how toxic the glass-nut can be, if you're on the receiving side.

 

They both sound like pieces of work to me.

 

I don't get all admiring of men who write about how they realize all their mistakes, after they made them, that's for sure. That's basic human, 101. It doesn't get special applause. We all do it.

 

But yeah, the glass lady ? Where the freaking glasses go - safety issues aside - is just so low on the totem pole of things to care about, even as a metaphor.

No admiration or applause here. Just reading exactly what was written.

 

I lived with a "glass nut". One of my parents is almost OCD neat freak about certain areas of the home. I'm not. I still respect that it really, really bothers this person when certain messes are left in those areas and as a fellow human I respect those "quirks", try my best to accomodate them, and love them for all the great things they contribute to my life while cleaning up after myself. (Not an unreasonable expectation, really. Ever.)

 

One of the areas my parent cannot stand mess: the kitchen. This story is quite literal to me. I have been on the receiving end of a yelling session or two about such messes as a kid/teen. You know what: it was deserved. We were lazy and disrespectful. We should have cleaned up our own damn messes. Period. End of story.

Edited January 25, 2016 by fraidycat

[EmseB]

No admiration or applause here. Just reading exactly what was written.

 

I lived with a "glass nut". One of my parents is almost OCD neat freak about certain areas of the home. I'm not. I still respect that it really, really bothers this person when certain messes are left in those areas and as a fellow human I respect those "quirks", try my best to accomodate them, and love them for all the great things they contribute to my life while cleaning up after myself. (Not an unreasonable expectation, really. Ever.)

 

One of the areas my parent cannot stand mess: the kitchen. This story is quite literal to me. I have been on the receiving end of a yelling session or two about such messes as a kid/teen. You know what: it was deserved. We were lazy and disrespectful. We should have cleaned up our own damn messes. Period. End of story.

 

To be honest, I rarely think anyone in a family deserves to be on the end of "a yelling session or two".  I say this as a yeller who tries really hard every day to change, especially trying to change not yelling at people about little stuff like kitchen dishes.

 

Even when someone is being lazy or disrespectful, I don't think they deserve to be yelled at.  But yelling is a whoooole 'nother thread.

 

At any rate, I certainly don't think two adults in a marriage should feel like somehow the other one deserves to be yelled at.

[LucyStoner]

I'm not sure if you are painting an accurate picture of the blogger's ex-wife but I think what you are actually saying is spot-on. I think it's applicable to anyone who thinks leaving a glass out is disrespectful or somehow symbolizes love.

Just to be very clear, I don't take the things my husband forgets to do as a sign he doesn't love me. Our love for each other is not in question. And because most of the time we keep the house flowing and clean enough, I don't take the night he doesn't do the dishes to be disrespectful. What I think people are talking about is that if it were EVERY SINGLE glass or EVERY SINGLE NIGHT of undone dishes, it very well may feel disrespectful.

 

The example I use is this. I used to leave my towel where I dropped it again and again. It drove my husband insane. He learned to be less stressed by it but I also learned that I could take an extra 10 seconds to throw my towel on the rack. Do I always put my towel on the rack? Uh no. But most of the time I do and if I didn't at least honestly try, if I ignored how much it bothered him, that would be callous and disrespectful. I wouldn't say it meant I didn't love him but love is not enough to make a marriage, or any relationship work. My parents loved each other and loved me and vice versa...that didn't make the family function.

[fraidycat]

To be honest, I rarely think anyone in a family deserves to be on the end of "a yelling session or two". I say this as a yeller who tries really hard every day to change, especially trying to change not yelling at people about little stuff like kitchen dishes.

 

Even when someone is being lazy or disrespectful, I don't think they deserve to be yelled at. But yelling is a whoooole 'nother thread.

 

At any rate, I certainly don't think two adults in a marriage should feel like somehow the other one deserves to be yelled at.

You're entitled to your opinion, obviously. But really, truly, my siblings and I were spoiled and disrespectful at times. Yelling did not hurt us. Usually we snickered and rolled our eyes. See: disrespectful, spoiled.

 

Pretty much all that was asked of us was to clean up after ourselves. We really wanted for nothing. Clothes, food, activities, material goods, love and affection. Nothing.

 

The parent was perfectly within reason to yell a few times. It was not always. Just occassionally in a "the straw that broke the back" kind of fashion. There was/is never any doubt that I'm 100% loved, 100% of the time. And a raised voice/display of emotions got us off our lazy duff and kept us reminded for awhile.

 

I agree that every day yelling would not have the same effect.

Edited January 25, 2016 by fraidycat

[maize]

lol it's almost like I personally have been going around flinging spaghetti sauce in people's kitchens and upending their trash, then running away laughing

Oh was that you? I thought it was ds3...

 

;)

[EmseB]

You're entitled to your opinion, obviously. But really, truly, my siblings and I were spoiled and disrespectful at times. Yelling did not hurt us. Usually we snickered and rolled our eyes. See: disrespectful, spoiled.

 

Pretty much all that was asked of us was to clean up after ourselves. We really wanted for nothing. Clothes, food, activities, material goods, love and affection. Nothing.

 

The parent was perfectly within reason to yell a few times. It was not always. Just occassionally in a "the straw that broke the back" kind of fashion. There was/is never any doubt that I'm 100% loved, 100% of the time. And a raised voice/display of emotions got us off our lazy duff and kept us reminded for awhile.

 

I agree that every day yelling would not have the same effect.

 

Well, I have often found that the more I yell, the less respectful my kids become.  It seems to be an ineffective parenting tool at best.  It is what I do when I'm feeling angry, frustrated, and impotent.  My kids are young, but the older two at least seem to understand that when mom yells it's because I'm totally powerless.  Their eyes glaze over and they check out when I yell.  And I don't yell daily, but perhaps monthly.  As for disrespectful, I think it's just as disrespectful to yell at someone (anyone) as it is to snicker or roll ones eyes.

 

Further, I would rather not have people changing their behavior around me because they are afraid I might explode, least of all my kids or spouse.  Gosh that would be a horrible way to live.

 

But if one wants to yell at their spouse every now and then to motivate their partners to do the dishes and that works for their marriage, I guess, who am I to say?  I can't imagine yelling at my husband or most other adults...I mean, hardly ever.

Edited January 25, 2016 by JodiSue

[LucyStoner]

In specific response to the blog post I commend the author for being self reflective and for taking some responsibility for his failed marriage. That said, abusive spouses are rarely fully reliable narrators and who knows if his wife left him over a cup. I think he was probably using that as an example as he mulls through the personal work he nueeds to do to hopefully not repeat the same abusive crap the next marriage around.

[BooksandBoys]

In specific response to the blog post I commend the author for being self reflective and for taking some responsibility for his failed marriage. That said, abusive spouses are rarely fully reliable narrators and who knows if his wife left him over a cup. I think he was probably using that as an example as he mulls through the personal work he nueeds to do to hopefully not repeat the same abusive crap the next marriage around.

Yes, the glass was just an example. I've read through a bit of his blog since this thread began. He wrote other posts about how he did not support her when she had PPD, that he left her, despite her crying and begging him to stay, at the hospital post c-section so he could go home to sleep, and that he often chose watching sports or hanging out with his friends over doing things with his wife and son. He writes that for his marriage, those were all very bad decisions (but that other marriages might have survived).

 

He seems to be using the blog to evaluate the various places ways he made mistakes in his marriage. He also doesn't seem to use the blog to point fingers at his ex wife. I'm sure she did plenty of things that he found to be unacceptable, but that doesn't appear to be the point of his blog.

[fraidycat]

Well, I have often found that the more I yell, the less respectful my kids become. It seems to be an ineffective parenting tool at best. It is what I do when I'm feeling angry, frustrated, and impotent. My kids are young, but the older two at least seem to understand that when mom yells it's because I'm totally powerless. Their eyes glaze over and they check out when I yell. And I don't yell daily, but perhaps monthly. As for disrespectful, I think it's just as disrespectful to yell at someone (anyone) as it is to snicker or roll ones eyes.

 

Further, I would rather not have people changing their behavior around me because they are afraid I might explode, least of all my kids or spouse. Gosh that would be a horrible way to live.

 

But if one wants to yell at their spouse every now and then to motivate their partners to do the dishes and that works for their marriage, I guess, who am I to say? I can't imagine yelling at my husband or most other adults...I mean, hardly ever.

To be fair, the yelling was never AT us. As in personal. It was more "I'm so damn tired of being the maid of the house, and being taken advantage of" said loudly, in our vicinity. It was about the yellers feelings, not our personal failings. That person has every right to feel feelings AND express them. Especially when they're true. And it worked as a reminder that we were being selfish little clods.

 

Not once ever was there an element of fear of my parents actions/reactions growing up. Like, based on stories I hear/see/read of families and interactions and childhoods - I was raised on another planet. My childhood WAS all sunshine, rainbows, lollipops, and unicorns in comparison. To this day my family is super close, emotionally.

[EmseB]

To be fair, the yelling was never AT us. As in personal. It was more "I'm so damn tired of being the maid of the house, and being taken advantage of" said loudly, in our vicinity. It was about the yellers feelings, not our personal failings. That person has every right to feel feelings AND express them. Especially when they're true. And it worked as a reminder that we were being selfish little clods.

 

Not once ever was there an element of fear of my parents actions/reactions growing up. Like, based on stories I hear/see/read of families and interactions and childhoods - I was raised on another planet. My childhood WAS all sunshine, rainbows, lollipops, and unicorns in comparison. To this day my family is super close, emotionally.

 

Ok, but the OP and most of the thread is about two married adults, and so I guess I'm confused on how the sort of passive-aggressive "yelling" you're describing fits into any healthy relationship.  I'm still baffled by it.

 

I know no one is perfect, and I do get in a snit, but ideally I would not express that by yelling about how damn tired I am of doing x,y, and z.  That doesn't seem (to me) to foster good communication or family relationships, with your exception noted.  I mean, if someone is going around my house doing that, I'm going to feel like they are being nasty and what they are saying isn't true because they are not the only ones cleaning up around the place.  So, I don't think someone in my house would be justified in doing that, including myself.

 

And how do you see if someone's being a "selfish little clod" or if the person yelling is simply being a martyr or abusive or has unreasonable expectations?

 

If my one of my parents yelled loudly about how put upon they were as a pointed jab at me, and if I was a selfish little clod (or my parents taught me that I was and that's why they were yelling), then I wouldn't be considering things to be all sunshine and rainbows, so I'm having a hard time understanding what you're writing.  Maybe we just have a different vision of family harmony?

[fraidycat]

Ok, but the OP and most of the thread is about two married adults, and so I guess I'm confused on how the sort of passive-aggressive "yelling" you're describing fits into any healthy relationship. I'm still baffled by it.

 

I know no one is perfect, and I do get in a snit, but ideally I would not express that by yelling about how damn tired I am of doing x,y, and z. That doesn't seem (to me) to foster good communication or family relationships, with your exception noted. I mean, if someone is going around my house doing that, I'm going to feel like they are being nasty and what they are saying isn't true because they are not the only ones cleaning up around the place. So, I don't think someone in my house would be justified in doing that, including myself.

 

And how do you see if someone's being a "selfish little clod" or if the person yelling is simply being a martyr or abusive or has unreasonable expectations?

 

If my one of my parents yelled loudly about how put upon they were as a pointed jab at me, and if I was a selfish little clod (or my parents taught me that I was and that's why they were yelling), then I wouldn't be considering things to be all sunshine and rainbows, so I'm having a hard time understanding what you're writing. Maybe we just have a different vision of family harmony?

Yelling only came up because I was talking about MY personal experience as a teen. You told me it was bad. I'm saying it wasn't. We weren't contributing. Only one person was doing all the work. No one told us we were selfish clods. It is a conclusion I drew myself, in retrospect. None of this has anything to do with a marriage. I was relating my personal experience with a "glass nut" in response to another posters assumption that personal experience with such a person would change my opinion.

 

Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's annoying. And I'm not being abusive, nor a martyr for stating that. Even if I were to do it emphatically.

 

ETA: Family harmony is just that. 100% love and acceptance. Support. Good times. We actually LIKE getting together for the holidays and spending time together whenever possible. Very little drama, and only between my sister and I, if any - small potatoes stuff. Real, true harmony with actual respect for each person's feelings and personality "quirks".

 

My overall childhood can still be sunshine and rainbows even if my parent got upset once or twice. Literally. It was a rare event, thus a respectably valid complaint.

Edited January 25, 2016 by fraidycat