Article re: dishes, wrong hamburger, emotions

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I don't know that it was intentional in that he expected me to pick things up. Then again, I don't know that he had any intention of putting things up either. I think, like you, his brain just moves on. I've seen him try so many things to get organized and nothing has really worked, yet. It's not his nature and his job isn't one that really allows you to be organized. I've have to become more flexible because of him and ds who is the same. It's made me more flexible which is a positive thing. We've tried to meet each other in the middle.

 

I still really, really want the dirty clothes in the hamper, though. That's my glass, I guess.

 

I hear you. Can you maybe pick one thing and make a strong but gentle stand on it? My one thing is the dishes in the dishwasher. This thread has really reminded why I hate it so much. DH's one thing was the closet doors. Maybe in a few months we'll work on something else :lol: 

[goldberry]

Right. Which is why this article about the glass is so ridiculous. If the person having the problem doesn't even know what the real problem is, why would you expect the other person to know that it isn't really about the glass?

 

 

In our case, I knew what it was about and communicated.  DH acknowledged.  There were some things I would say flat out, "I know this isn't a big deal, but for some reason it really bugs me. I need you to hear me that this really bothers me."  

 

Another example, I was *somewhat* bothered by DD leaving clothes on the bathroom floor.  I was INTENSELY bothered by her or DH leaving hair in the drain.  DH learned this early.  For DD, once she was old enough, I had a very specific conversation with her about the hair.  That for some reason seeing hair the size of a small animal in the shower drain totally disgusted me and sent me into an angry frenzy.  I explained that we all have "things" and that was one of my "things" and I needed her to respect and understand that.  Enough said.  She rarely-rarely forgot after that.

 

So no, I don't think it's about the "reasonableness" of the demand itself.  The reasonableness of not having *too many* demands, yes.

[goldberry]

I just remembered another situation giving advice to my newly married niece.  She was working long hours at the time, and her DH was often home during the day due to his schedule.  She was feeling very disrespected and unsupported because he didn't help out during the day. She would come home, for example, and the dishwasher would not even be unloaded. I asked her, "Have you talked to him?'  She said, "Does can't you ever even unload the g-d dishwasher count?" ;)  I informed her that no, it did not count.

 

How about, "I'm doing a lot of the outside work right now, and I really feel like you're not supporting me when you don't do anything to help with the house while I'm gone.  Can we talk about this?  Could you possibly do this and this? (specifics)"

 

I do think it's hard on men when they don't really know what they are doing wrong.  Women need to take more responsibility for communicating what they need.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

I do think it's hard on men when they don't really know what they are doing wrong.  Women need to take more responsibility for communicating what they need.

 

Yeah I think it does come down to this sometimes.  I just say what I want.  I wish I didn't have to sometimes, but what is worse?  Saying something and getting what I want, or saying nothing and remaining angry? 

 

And I think in some cases there are still many males being raised with the idea that certain tasks are the domain of women vs. men.  Even I have to remind myself to make my boys do various household tasks because I do not want them to think only women do them.  But in terms of modeling, they see that I do these things much more frequently than their dad does.  Although he is not bad.  He will do a lot of things without being asked (dishes, laundry, etc.). 

 

But then I also do stuff like mow the lawn or take out the trash.  My husband does those things most of the time, but again, I don't want my kids to think these are the only tasks required of males.

 

It's obviously not perfect though.  They probably will grow up with those ideas to a certain extent.  Even I have to fight that thinking because I was raised in a very traditional household. 

[MaeFlowers]

See, this is what I don't get. If you understand this about him, how could you also think it's disrespectful?

 

I was talking about the past. I just didn't understand the why. It took me time to understand that it was a combination of factors. I had never lived with anyone like him. I didn't get it.

 

Maybe because people want others to modify behavior to please those close to them? Or even those they just interact with a lot? Or... something like that.

 

I have time management issues. It takes a lot of work for me to be on time. If I am late and someone knows I'm chronically late, they still might consider it disrespectful. Because, well, I'm infringing on their time and should just get my act together lol.

 

I think we all modify behaviors to some degree in our marriages. I have changed some things that drove him nuts, too. Some things have changed just from living together for so long.

 

I hear you. Can you maybe pick one thing and make a strong but gentle stand on it? My one thing is the dishes in the dishwasher. This thread has really reminded why I hate it so much. DH's one thing was the closet doors. Maybe in a few months we'll work on something else :lol:

 

Well, I picked those battles long ago and let the rest go. It's all water under the bridge at this point.

[MaeFlowers]

Yeah, if I leave something out (yep, the lawnmower, almost every time I use it) it's not because I expect someone else to put it away. I got interrupted, I was planning to come back, I went to pull some weeds or feed the cat or play frisbee with the kids. It was out all week? I didn't notice, and if I did notice it didn't strike me as urgent.

 

For someone who isn't like this, it can be difficult to understand. Not the interruptions thing but the leaving it out for a week. I don't understand how someone simply doesn't notice. A big red lawn mower sitting in the middle of the yard would be pretty obvious to me.

 

Not being urgent, I get. To some level. To the point that it gets destroyed, no.

 

I have had to work on this for a long time. Having both a dh and a ds who are like this can be exhausting. Even though I can't think like they do, I try to understand. Like I said, it has made me more flexible and I think that's a good thing.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

I do think it's hard on men when they don't really know what they are doing wrong.  Women need to take more responsibility for communicating what they need.

I think that this implies that housework is something that women need and men do not.  It also puts the onus of remembering and coordinating it completely on women.  That's not really sharing responsibility, although it might be an improvement in some situations.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I think that this implies that housework is something that women need and men do not.  It also puts the onus of remembering and coordinating it completely on women.  That's not really sharing responsibility, although it might be an improvement in some situations.

 

While I do agree with Goldberry, I do also feel this way. I simply don't understand why men get a pass on this kind of thing anymore. When it became clear that our finances were in trouble because of things happening at DH's office, I started working. I didn't need anyone to say to me, "Hey, listen, things are getting tight and it would really help me if you found a way to make some extra money." Even though our division of labor is such that (for the most part) indoors is what I take care of and outdoors is what DH takes care of, when I see the plants in the front dying for lack of water, I water them--I don't just wait for DH to do it. When I start seeing DH putting his bathroom implements in a different place than I might usually, I figure he needs them there and switch accordingly. I don't wait for DH to tell me he needs undershirts--I see that there are a ton of them in the hamper and I do the laundry. I shovel snow when necessary, I spread salt on the sidewalks when the temp is dropping and DH hasn't been home to do it, I tie up the recycling when it's starting to overwhelm the garage. These are all things in DH's "realm," but when I see them needing to be done, I just think, "Oh, he's not here/busy/tired from work, I'll just do it quickly." Why does it seem like so many men don't think the same way? Maybe it's just the dynamic in our house, but based on conversations I see here, I don't think so.

 

I don't know. I find it so hard to believe [eta: not hard to believe, but very frustrating] we're still having these discussions as a culture. I chalk it up to "It's a male/female thing," but I really don't like thinking that way, and I hope that my daughters don't have to when they're old enough for relationships. 

 

ETA: 

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/01/06/gender_and_housework_even_men_who_don_t_work_do_less_than_women.html

Edited January 24, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[marbel]

I think that this implies that housework is something that women need and men do not.  It also puts the onus of remembering and coordinating it completely on women.  That's not really sharing responsibility, although it might be an improvement in some situations.

 

That's true but if a guy lived in a home where the woman did all that sort of work, he's not going to think to do it, even if he doesn't specifically hold to a philosophy that that stuff is "women's work."   It would be natural to think of it as something the woman does, if that's what he saw growing up.

 

LOL. When I was a kid my dad was the one who put the lights on the Christmas tree.  So when I got married I expected my husband to do that. He hadn't gotten that memo; his mom did all the Christmas decorating; his dad didn't care and did none. That first Christmas was a little tense till we got it figured out. 

 

Different from housework, of course.  But, similar enough (in my mind anyway) :-)

[heartlikealion]

While I do agree with Goldberry, I do also feel this way. I simply don't understand why men get a pass on this kind of thing anymore. When it became clear that our finances were in trouble because of things happening at DH's office, I started working. I didn't need anyone to say to me, "Hey, listen, things are getting tight and it would really help me if you found a way to make some extra money." Even though our division of labor is such that (for the most part) indoors is what I take care of and outdoors is what DH takes care of, when I see the plants in the front dying for lack of water, I water them--I don't just wait for DH to do it. When I start seeing DH putting his bathroom implements in a different place than I might usually, I figure he needs them there and switch accordingly. I don't wait for DH to tell me he needs undershirts--I see that there are a ton of them in the hamper and I do the laundry. I shovel snow when necessary, I spread salt on the sidewalks when the temp is dropping and DH hasn't been home to do it, I tie up the recycling when it's starting to overwhelm the garage. These are all things in DH's "realm," but when I see them needing to be done, I just think, "Oh, he's not here/busy/tired from work, I'll just do it quickly." Why does it seem like so many men don't think the same way? Maybe it's just the dynamic in our house, but based on conversations I see here, I don't think so.

 

I don't know. I find it so hard to believe we're still having these discussions as culture. I chalk it up to "It's a male/female thing," but I really don't like thinking that way, and I hope that my daughters don't have to when they're old enough for relationships. 

 

ETA: 

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/01/06/gender_and_housework_even_men_who_don_t_work_do_less_than_women.html

 

Yes! As for the indoor/outdoor I hear this a lot on these boards but it doesn't apply here. We seldom do outdoor tasks and we pay someone to mow the yard. I think that's part of the reason I want more help inside.

 

 

That's true but if a guy lived in a home where the woman did all that sort of work, he's not going to think to do it, even if he doesn't specifically hold to a philosophy that that stuff is "women's work."   It would be natural to think of it as something the woman does, if that's what he saw growing up.

 

LOL. When I was a kid my dad was the one who put the lights on the Christmas tree.  So when I got married I expected my husband to do that. He hadn't gotten that memo; his mom did all the Christmas decorating; his dad didn't care and did none. That first Christmas was a little tense till we got it figured out. 

 

Different from housework, of course.  But, similar enough (in my mind anyway) :-)

 

Yeah, I think this has a lot to do with behavior or expectations.

Edited January 24, 2016 by heartlikealion

[Guest]

When you are married to someone with significant EF deficits, it sounds very nice when ppl say "just accept them for who they are."

 

And "just accept them for who they are" is what the ef-deficit person LOVES to hear. Afterall, THEY are super at "acceptance."

 

But just swallowing whatever someone you live with dishes out to you is a recipe for a myriad of personal disasters. Not to mention that once these ppl have children, they have just as much responsibility as anyone else to acknowledge their own problem areas and work steadily to improve.

 

It is absolutely NOT about perfection. It is 100% about the necessity of mutuality...of healthy give-and-take within personal relationships.

 

And I don't understand how ppl expect this dude to write his own blog from his ex wife's perspective. Of course it's one-sided. It's his blog!

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

When you are married to someone with significant EF deficits, it sounds very nice when ppl say "just accept them for who they are."

 

And "just accept them for who they are" is what the ef-deficit person LOVES to hear. Afterall, THEY are super at "acceptance."

 

But just swallowing whatever someone you live with dishes out to you is a recipe for a myriad of personal disasters. Not to mention that once these ppl have children, they have just as much responsibility as anyone else to acknowledge their own problem areas and work steadily to improve.

 

It is absolutely NOT about perfection. It is 100% about the necessity of mutuality...of healthy give-and-take within personal relationships.

 

And I don't understand how ppl expect this dude to write his own blog from his ex wife's perspective. Of course it's one-sided. It's his blog!

 

As the EF deficit person in this household, I agree with you. I do feel like I do most things wrong/unsatisfactorily, but if DH makes a strong case or expresses a strong need to me, I do my best to meet it. 

[Guest]

n/m too specific lol

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by OKBud

[MaeFlowers]

As the EF deficit person in this household, I agree with you. I do feel like I do most things wrong/unsatisfactorily, but if DH makes a strong case or expresses a strong need to me, I do my best to meet it.

This made me sad that you think you do things wrong/unsatisfactorily. You don't, you just have you're own unique way of doing things. ðŸ˜

 

It reminds me of dh, ds and I mow the lawn. I was just commenting to dh not too long ago about how their scattered-ness translates to mowing. I'm a linear thinker so I start at the right side of the yard and move left, then down the side and across the back.

Dh and ds are completely random. They will mow the lower right corner, then go over and mow the far left by the road, then maybe half the back, then maybe the front.

Anyway, it used to bug me (though I never said anything cause hey the lawn is getting mowed) because I didn't understand it. Now, I just think its funny in a good way. I love that they do it that way because I love them.

 

Edited because my phone kept correcting mow to now.

Edited January 24, 2016 by MaeFlowers

[SharonM]

I have found the biggest problem I have in my marriage is my expectations. If I don't hold my dh to MY expectations of how things should be done, then I am not disappointed. Nor am I feeling disrespected because he does things his way. Actually he has a bigger problem of things being done the "right" way.

I believe that the person doing the job gets to decide how it is to be done. If you want the glasses off the counter, take them off.

[Guest]

This made me sad that you think you do things wrong/unsatisfactorily. You don't, you just have you're own unique way of doing things. ðŸ˜

 

It reminds me of dh, ds and I mow the lawn. I was just commenting to dh not too long ago about how their scattered-ness translates to mowing. I'm a linear thinker so I start at the right side of the yard and move left, then down the side and across the back.

Dh and ds are completely random. They will mow the lower right corner, then go over and mow the far left by the road, then maybe half the back, then maybe the front.

Anyway, it used to bug me (though I never said anything cause hey the lawn is getting mowed) because I didn't understand it. Now, I just think its funny in a good way. I love that they do it that way because I love them.

 

Edited because my phone kept correcting mow to now.

 

With Executive Functioning issues, it's not a matter of doing things in different ways.

 

It's a matter of doing them at all.

 

It's not quirky and fun:

 

.A person's executive functioning skills make it possible for him to live, work, and learn with an appropriate level of independence and competence for his age

 

 

It's something the person, and their whole family, has to rally around to improve outcomes (lives) for everyone involved.

 

 

[goldberry]

I think that this implies that housework is something that women need and men do not.  It also puts the onus of remembering and coordinating it completely on women.  That's not really sharing responsibility, although it might be an improvement in some situations.

 

I wasn't talking about housework, that just happened to be the example.  I was talking about anything that is important to one person and (for whatever reason) is not as important to the other person.  Is it really that surprising, given how much variance we see on the board of how important some things are to some and how totally unimportant they are to others?

 

FWIW, I think that "he should have known" is the least productive argument/statement in the history of marriage.  When someone doesn't deliver something that we really need, there are really only three possibilities:

1. They don't know it's something we really need

2. They aren't capable of delivering it

3. They don't care enough to try.

 

The first place is the easiest to start.  So why not just start there by being honest about what is important to you?  Because let's face it, if you eliminate #1 as an option, and get down to #2 or 3, those are much bigger problems to deal with.  

 

If they honestly don't know, debate later about why they don't know (parents, society, immaturity, whatever).  At least you've eliminated option #1.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

This made me sad that you think you do things wrong/unsatisfactorily. You don't, you just have you're own unique way of doing things. ðŸ˜

 

It reminds me of dh, ds and I mow the lawn. I was just commenting to dh not too long ago about how their scattered-ness translates to mowing. I'm a linear thinker so I start at the right side of the yard and move left, then down the side and across the back.

Dh and ds are completely random. They will mow the lower right corner, then go over and mow the far left by the road, then maybe half the back, then maybe the front.

Anyway, it used to bug me (though I never said anything cause hey the lawn is getting mowed) because I didn't understand it. Now, I just think its funny in a good way. I love that they do it that way because I love them.

 

Edited because my phone kept correcting mow to now.

 

 

Aw, you made my cry and laugh at the same time! Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I'm trying to look at it that way more myself, especially because it's apparent that my youngest has pretty much the same issues I do. 

 

:grouphug:

 

I have found the biggest problem I have in my marriage is my expectations. If I don't hold my dh to MY expectations of how things should be done, then I am not disappointed. Nor am I feeling disrespected because he does things his way. Actually he has a bigger problem of things being done the "right" way.

I believe that the person doing the job gets to decide how it is to be done. If you want the glasses off the counter, take them off.

 

For the most part, I agree with you. However, DH and I rely on each other--we are inter-dependent. I can't imagine staying in a marriage where the underlying premise was, "Eh, what you need doesn't matter to me. If it matters so much to you, do it yourself." It might work for some people, but it definitely wouldn't work for me. Someday, maybe, if I live alone again, I can be that entirely self-sufficient. Until then, four of us live here, and in this family, we all need to work together to make a harmonious household. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I don't think it's particularly respectful to enable unreasonable expectations. 

 

The problem is, who gets to decide what's reasonable and what's not? 

[goldberry]

 

I don't know. I find it so hard to believe [eta: not hard to believe, but very frustrating] we're still having these discussions as a culture. I chalk it up to "It's a male/female thing," but I really don't like thinking that way, and I hope that my daughters don't have to when they're old enough for relationships. 

 

 

 

See, I don't see the having to communicate needs because of a male/female thing.  It's because people are (and will always be) different and have different priorities.  

 

I have a girlfriend who actually doesn't like when her husband tries to help with house-type stuff, because she feels like he doesn't appreciate her efforts.  He thinks he's trying to be a modern man and helpful.  Most of us would like it, and in fact expect it.  She doesn't.  They need to communicate and do what works for THEM.  That is what marriage is.

[Laura Corin]

Me, obviously :)

 

I'd actually say the partner with the 'good enough' approach is the more reasonable, 

 

Perfectionism kills love.

 

The thing is, I'm not hearing perfectionism on the wife's part in the blog post, I'm hearing lack of empathy in the husband.  The glass  mattered to his wife (we don't know if she was a perfectionist - maybe she had only a few quirks) and he couldn't see it from her point of view.

 

In my relationship, I would have explained, my husband would have understood that it mattered to me, then he would have tried to accommodate me.  It wouldn't have to be 100% - just an honest try that denoted caring for my point of view.  And vice versa.

[Rosie_0801]

At the same time, if it isn't about the glass, or about the ground beef, or about the toilet seat, or about the socks on the floor, then don't make it about that.  If someone doesn't feel loved or respected in their relationship, why on earth would they argue about glasses or meat or socks or toilets?  

 

Perhaps they are straws breaking the camel's back, so to speak. 

 

Perhaps they will be able to cope with the rest of the stuff they shoulder, trying to prevent their marriage from collapsing, if only their spouse would put their own dishes in the dishwasher/ turn lights off when they leave the room/ whatever the pet peeves are.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Me, obviously :)

 

I'd actually say the partner with the 'good enough' approach is the more reasonable, 

 

Perfectionism kills love.

 

Ha! Again, though, what is "good enough"? I'm a Type A with EF deficits (as we've established!), so my house is a mess--mostly clutter (mail!!!) but some things are actually on the grosser side of what I'm comfortable with. I just can't catch up right now (I'm working, having health issues, about to have surgery, dealing with a kid who needs weekly doctor's visits and one who is desperate for social activities). I know DH dislikes it intensely. He wants the house in better shape, and I'm mostly comfortable in a place of "This is the absolute best I can do right now without having a nervous breakdown." Yet, DH is the guy who embodies "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" (mirrors cleaned with streaks, counters wiped but still greasy in places, shoes thrown in front of the closet instead of in it, etc.). 

 

That's a hard middle ground to find! Each version of "good enough" looks quite different. And he thinks it's good enough to drop dishes in the sink, and I think it's a basic good habit (and basic respect for the cook/kitchen staff) to put your own dirty dishes in the dishwasher. Is that an unreasonable request? Who gets to decide?

 

I don't think it's as simple as saying "good enough" is the common ground. Plus, I've seen other people's version of good enough, and I don't even want to sit in their houses, let alone eat in them. Absolutely disgusting. And I say this as someone who currently has hamster pee in a corner of her kitchen floor. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[goldberry]

 

In my relationship, I would have explained, my husband would have understood that it mattered to me, then he would have tried to accommodate me.  It wouldn't have to be 100% - just an honest try that denoted caring for my point of view.  And vice versa.

 

Exactly this.

 

My mother, on the other hand, is still stewing over things my dad has done for 50 years because "he should know, I shouldn't have to tell him."   :rolleyes:   

[Rosie_0801]

See, this is what I don't get. If you understand this about him, how could you also think it's disrespectful?

 

Didn't you post a thread the other week about the difference between knowing something and feeling it? (Could have been someone else, but I'm pretty sure *someone* did!)

 

You may know someone isn't intending to be disrespectful, but you still feel like they have little respect for you.

[MaeFlowers]

With Executive Functioning issues, it's not a matter of doing things in different ways.

 

It's a matter of doing them at all.

 

It's not quirky and fun:

 

 

It's something the person, and their whole family, has to rally around to improve outcomes (lives) for everyone involved.

 

I do understand that. I understand the struggles. My ds has been diagnosed with ADHD, combined type. He really needs more thorough testing. I can check off way too many things on that website. Dh is the same way (though he has never been diagnosed with anything) It can be very hard.

 

But, that being said, what's wrong with having a sense of humor and appreciating a person for who they are? I would definitely say they are quirky and a sense of humor helps deal with the stress that comes with it. I have panic disorder. It isn't fun but I try to laugh at it when I can. Otherwise, I would cry way too much and beat myself up. I don't want my dh, my ds, or anyone else to feel like they are wrong or bad. It doesn't accomplish anything.

[goldberry]

 

Making a partner and children worry about how quickly they've done a task - oh god, did I forget to put the glass away just now ? She's going to go off at me/us - to me suggests dysfunction.

 

 

 

Yeah, I think you're talking about something different.  There should never be a walking on eggshell feeling.  To me that indicates dysfunction as well.

[Guest]

I do understand that. I understand the struggles. My ds has been diagnosed with ADHD, combined type. He really needs more thorough testing. I can check off way too many things on that website. Dh is the same way (though he has never been diagnosed with anything) It can be very hard.

 

But, that being said, what's wrong with having a sense of humor and appreciating a person for who they are? I would definitely say they are quirky and a sense of humor helps deal with the stress that comes with it. I have panic disorder. It isn't fun but I try to laugh at it when I can. Otherwise, I would cry way too much and beat myself up. I don't want my dh, my ds, or anyone else to feel like they are wrong or bad. It doesn't accomplish anything.

 

You are very nice, and sensible :grouphug:

[goldberry]

If you know for a fact someone isn't intending disrespect, but you feel disrespected, it's up to you to deal with your feelings. 

 

 

 

But if my spouse *tells* me that something I am doing is causing him to feel disrespected, then even if I did not intend it, I want to stop doing it.  Because I care about his feelings.  To continue doing something that I know makes him feel bad, is not a kind thing to do in a marriage.  (exceptions and limitations, obviously.)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Me, obviously :)

 

I'd actually say the partner with the 'good enough' approach is the more reasonable in most situations in that it causes least stress within the family.

 

Perfectionism or 'nothing at all' are both equally damaging, imo. But two people accepting a common minimum, and then also accepting that things done above and beyond will be done differently ? Fine.

 

I could expend a lot of energy on ds not putting his clean clothes away. He leaves them stacked at the bottom of the bed. I could attach my worth to his not putting the clothes away.

 

But hey! He doesn't leave them there to be disrespectful. He leaves them there because having clothes in the cupboard isn't a priority to him. Fair enough. It wasn't a priority to me when I was 12 either. 

 

However, he puts dirty clothes in a hamper and empties it regularly. That's our common agreed minimum. It's fine. 

 

Ah, you edited your post after I replied. 

 

IMO, it's not about attaching our self-worth to things--at least, that's not the angle I'm seeing the issue from. My self-worth is soooooo not attached to how neat my kitchen is :lol: That's not why the dirty dishes bother me. They bother me because when people walk PAST the dishwasher to put their dishes in the sink, they're doing it for one of several reasons:

 

1) They can't be bothered to peek inside the dishwasher to see if it's clean or dirty. But it's ok if I have to have to do it.

2) They don't want to deal with fitting things in among the dishes already there. But it's ok if I have to do it.

3) They don't want to have to deal with touching the sticky, dirty dishes. But it's ok if I have to do it. 

4) Dealing with the dishwasher will take a few extra minutes that they don't feel like spending. But it's ok for me to spend my time on it x 4.

 

All of these things are disrespectful to me in the extreme. I'm not the hired help, just waiting with all my free time for the delegation of all undesirable jobs. But no one else who seems to live here seems to see it that way. 

 

This kind of discussion is how the common agreed minimum comes about. I've had the discussion several times, from several different angles. Everyone looks mopey and sad and says they'll stop, but no one does. Who is to say it's unreasonable? Some people probably think so. Some are probably up in arms on my behalf right now. But there won't be a common agreed minimum unless I get really, really pissy about it at this point. And sometimes that's what it takes. I don't get pissy about all the other things. But someone has to draw the line somewhere. DH got to draw his at the closet doors. At some point, I have to draw mine. 

 

And that's how it becomes a glass on the counter. 

[Rosie_0801]

So no, I don't think it's about the "reasonableness" of the demand itself.  The reasonableness of not having *too many* demands, yes.

 

It is very hard to avoid having too many demands, when one's spouse thinks they are doing you a personal favour if they turn the shower off properly when they're done.

 

I'm glad I don't live with that any more.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

But if my spouse *tells* me that something I am doing is causing him to feel disrespected, then even if I did not intend it, I want to stop doing it.  Because I care about his feelings.  To continue doing something that I know makes him feel bad, is not a kind thing to do in a marriage.  (exceptions and limitations, obviously.)

 

Also, what she said.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

He who dislikes it must be the one to fix it!

 

If dishes in the sink bothered me, I'd either leave the dishes in the sink, or I'd just accept my own preference is just that - a preference - and put them in the dishwasher. 

 

Good luck with your upcoming surgery.

 

As I said to Sharon, I won't live in a marriage/family that treats each other that way. I don't accept THAT. I go out of my way to treat my kids and DH with respect and care. I won't accept less for myself, and I wouldn't allow my kids to think they should accept that for themselves. That's a pretty empty relationship, IMO. 

[Guest]

That's true but if a guy lived in a home where the woman did all that sort of work, he's not going to think to do it, even if he doesn't specifically hold to a philosophy that that stuff is "women's work." It would be natural to think of it as something the woman does, if that's what he saw growing up.

 

LOL. When I was a kid my dad was the one who put the lights on the Christmas tree. So when I got married I expected my husband to do that. He hadn't gotten that memo; his mom did all the Christmas decorating; his dad didn't care and did none. That first Christmas was a little tense till we got it figured out.

 

Different from housework, of course. But, similar enough (in my mind anyway) :-)

Yes, this. Also, I think it is better from an efficiency standpoint if the partners gravitate to their own domains. If that falls along traditional roles and everybody is happy about it, there's nothing wrong with that. It's much better than always wondering who is going to do what or have to have a specific conversation about a hundred things because there isn't a well-defined domain line.

 

I never wonder if DH paid the electric bill. Know why? Because I am the bill-payer. If there is some reason why he needs to pay a bill, or if there were a reason he had to take on all the bill-paying for some period of time, then we would have to have a convo about it, but it is easier to know who does it because it is one person de facto. I never wonder if he fed the dog. Unless he asked me to do it for some reason, I can assume the dog is fed if he's been let out in the yeard.

 

Garga said this earlier, but it bears repeating: the Bible verses in Corinthians about love are a really good reference, no matter how you feel about the Bible generally, or whether you ascribe to that faith or not. (i just realized it was in a different thread that Garga said that, though.) Anyway, it says that "Charity suffers long and is kind." I think if each partner can be long-suffering, it goes a long way. As I said before, I am the mate with the persnickety tendencies; DH is the big-picture-forgot-the-details guy. Sometimes, I am "suffering long" when he can't be bothered with details. Sometimes he is suffering long when he explains for the tenth time that it does not matter how one does this or that as long as it happens in the end.

[maize]

My self-worth is soooooo not attached to how neat my kitchen is :lol: That's not why the dirty dishes bother me. They bother me because when people walk PAST the dishwasher to put their dishes in the sink, they're doing it for one of several reasons:

 

1) They can't be bothered to peek inside the dishwasher to see if it's clean or dirty. But it's ok if I have to have to do it.

2) They don't want to deal with fitting things in among the dishes already there. But it's ok if I have to do it.

3) They don't want to have to deal with touching the sticky, dirty dishes. But it's ok if I have to do it. 

4) Dealing with the dishwasher will take a few extra minutes that they don't feel like spending. But it's ok for me to spend my time on it x 4.

 

 

or 

6) their mind was elsewhere and the dishwasher never even entered their thoughts. In fact they weren't particularly conscious of holding the dishes or doing anything with them.

[Carol in Cal.]

or 

6) their mind was elsewhere and the dishwasher never even entered their thoughts. In fact they weren't particularly conscious of holding the dishes or doing anything with them.

But see, they can have that luxury because of their privileged position.  Which is pretty demeaning to the other party.

[maize]

But see, they can have that luxury because of their privileged position.  Which is pretty demeaning to the other party.

 

In what way am I privileged?

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Idk. I'd probably just quit doing it. Natural consequences. I'd handwash my own stuff. If they don't want to eat off clean plates, not my problem. 

 

I think we are viewing this issue from opposite sides - the person who feels disrespected, the person being accused of being disrespectful. But I hear what you are saying. And I hope they hear you and pick up their game, because you don't sound at all unreasonable in your expectations.

 

I sometimes find it worthwhile to experiment with time expectations, rather than job expectations. I might want the bathroom cleaned today, but someone else in the house might be prepared to do it three days hence. I can choose to do it now, or I can allow them the time to do it as it is convenient to them.

 

I've toyed with the idea, but our kitchen is very small, with about 18 square inches of counter space. After a certain point, I wouldn't even be able to wash my own dishes. I did threaten at one point to put all their dirty dishes in their beds to deal with, but DH didn't like being reprimanded and got upset. I didn't know where else to go from there that wasn't punishing me too. 

 

I certainly agree about things like the bathroom. But again, we've reached the minimum common ground there. It's actually DD13's responsibility, and she gets to decide when she does it. That's usually right before her friend is coming over weekly. If she wants be responsible for crisis cleaning it, that's up to her. The kitchen seems to be the main sticking point at the moment. 

 

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I'd personally describe it as a different model, rather than an empty one.

 

OK. 

[8circles]

Didn't you post a thread the other week about the difference between knowing something and feeling it? (Could have been someone else, but I'm pretty sure *someone* did!)

 

You may know someone isn't intending to be disrespectful, but you still feel like they have little respect for you.

No lol! That wasn't me. I saw it but I don't think I weighed-in on it. I may have read a couple posts but I stayed out of that one.

 

Ftr, yes, I think you can know & feel different things. :)

 

It isn't that people feel like glasses left out is disrespectful, but that they indulge that feeling, instead of addressing the actual problem. In many cases it turns out there is a reason why glasses are being left out, coats are not hung up, socks are left on the floor. And in many (most, all?) cases isn't because of disrespect.

 

There are situations of abuse that can manifest in things like glasses left out. On BOTH sides.

[8circles]

For someone who isn't like this, it can be difficult to understand. Not the interruptions thing but the leaving it out for a week. I don't understand how someone simply doesn't notice. A big red lawn mower sitting in the middle of the yard would be pretty obvious to me.

 

Not being urgent, I get. To some level. To the point that it gets destroyed, no.

 

I have had to work on this for a long time. Having both a dh and a ds who are like this can be exhausting. Even though I can't think like they do, I try to understand. Like I said, it has made me more flexible and I think that's a good thing.

Have you ever watched Brain Games? I always think I'm going to notice the things and my brain will show how superior it is lol. Nope. I am always amazed at the things that I will not see that seem so obvious when they point it would it later. It like that. Only worse.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

or 

6) their mind was elsewhere and the dishwasher never even entered their thoughts. In fact they weren't particularly conscious of holding the dishes or doing anything with them.

 

Sure, that's entirely possible. But after I have expressed a need and a strong emotional reaction to the situation multiple times, I expect some consideration and a move toward change from the people who love me. Habits can, in fact, be changed. When oldest DD expressed frustration that we were just walking into her room without knocking a few years ago, we took her concerns seriously, and out of respect for her, we started knocking and waiting for her to invite us in. When DH told me how he felt about the closet doors, or when he asked me to start making lower-carb dinners because he's trying to eat more healthfully, I started closing the doors and steered my meal planning and shopping habits in a different direction. When youngest DD, who is an extreme extrovert, was feeling depressed and lonely because she spends most of her time with two introverts, DH and I actively made changes to meet her needs better.

 

None of these changes came easily, but yes, I do expect that family who loves you will care enough to work toward making changes so that everyone's needs are met more efficiently. I honestly cannot fathom living in a family whose members don't do things like this for each other.

[8circles]

I don't think it's divided along gender lines. I would definitely be the glass-leaver in any relationship. Dh would be more likely to be able to adapt.

 

While I do agree with Goldberry, I do also feel this way. I simply don't understand why men get a pass on this kind of thing anymore. When it became clear that our finances were in trouble because of things happening at DH's office, I started working. I didn't need anyone to say to me, "Hey, listen, things are getting tight and it would really help me if you found a way to make some extra money." Even though our division of labor is such that (for the most part) indoors is what I take care of and outdoors is what DH takes care of, when I see the plants in the front dying for lack of water, I water them--I don't just wait for DH to do it. When I start seeing DH putting his bathroom implements in a different place than I might usually, I figure he needs them there and switch accordingly. I don't wait for DH to tell me he needs undershirts--I see that there are a ton of them in the hamper and I do the laundry. I shovel snow when necessary, I spread salt on the sidewalks when the temp is dropping and DH hasn't been home to do it, I tie up the recycling when it's starting to overwhelm the garage. These are all things in DH's "realm," but when I see them needing to be done, I just think, "Oh, he's not here/busy/tired from work, I'll just do it quickly." Why does it seem like so many men don't think the same way? Maybe it's just the dynamic in our house, but based on conversations I see here, I don't think so.

 

I don't know. I find it so hard to believe [eta: not hard to believe, but very frustrating] we're still having these discussions as a culture. I chalk it up to "It's a male/female thing," but I really don't like thinking that way, and I hope that my daughters don't have to when they're old enough for relationships.

 

ETA:

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/01/06/gender_and_housework_even_men_who_don_t_work_do_less_than_women.html

[8circles]

When you are married to someone with significant EF deficits, it sounds very nice when ppl say "just accept them for who they are."

 

And "just accept them for who they are" is what the ef-deficit person LOVES to hear. Afterall, THEY are super at "acceptance."

 

But just swallowing whatever someone you live with dishes out to you is a recipe for a myriad of personal disasters. Not to mention that once these ppl have children, they have just as much responsibility as anyone else to acknowledge their own problem areas and work steadily to improve.

 

It is absolutely NOT about perfection. It is 100% about the necessity of mutuality...of healthy give-and-take within personal relationships.

 

And I don't understand how ppl expect this dude to write his own blog from his ex wife's perspective. Of course it's one-sided. It's his blog!

I have ef deficits. I don't expect not to work on my issues and do my best to improve. But I absolutely expect to be accepted as a person who has faults and given grace when I am doing my best, even if my best isn't that great.

[8circles]

This made me sad that you think you do things wrong/unsatisfactorily. You don't, you just have you're own unique way of doing things. ðŸ˜

 

It reminds me of dh, ds and I mow the lawn. I was just commenting to dh not too long ago about how their scattered-ness translates to mowing. I'm a linear thinker so I start at the right side of the yard and move left, then down the side and across the back.

Dh and ds are completely random. They will mow the lower right corner, then go over and mow the far left by the road, then maybe half the back, then maybe the front.

Anyway, it used to bug me (though I never said anything cause hey the lawn is getting mowed) because I didn't understand it. Now, I just think its funny in a good way. I love that they do it that way because I love them.

 

Edited because my phone kept correcting mow to now.

I mow like your dh. It never occurred to me until now that it might be weird. Lol

[Carol in Cal.]

In what way am I privileged?

If you're the one who can afford to just forget about this completely, because someone else will clean up after you, that's a high privilege.

[Rosie_0801]

I have ef deficits. I don't expect not to work on my issues and do my best to improve. But I absolutely expect to be accepted as a person who has faults and given grace when I am doing my best, even if my best isn't that great.

 

I think, when you live with someone, it's usually obvious when someone is trying and when someone is not.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I don't think it's divided along gender lines. I would definitely be the glass-leaver in any relationship. Dh would be more likely to be able to adapt.

 

 

My post with regard to that was more in response to Goldberry's, and then Carol's, posts about how women expect men to just know what they need in regard to housework, not so much the glass on the counter. We've had a million discussions here over the years with women saying that we have to specifically tell men what we need in regard to help around the house because they're not psychic or they "just don't see that stuff like we do." But I'm mystified by the idea that men still just don't see a full dishwasher or a floor with mud tracked on it or whatever. 

 

I mow like your dh. It never occurred to me until now that it might be weird. Lol

 

That's how I clean the house when people are home :lol: It's so inefficient! When I'm home alone, I get on like a house on fire. If there are people here with me, I'm a wreck!

[Carol in Cal.]

There are strategies to compensate for ADHD, and I suspect that some of them would be helpful to those with EF issues as well.

 

One is the Threshold Pause.  Every time you cross a threshold, you look back to see whether you left something undone behind you, just a quick visual scan of the room.  Is that a peanut butter jar with the lid off?  Should that wad of gum on the counter be either in your mouth or in the garbage?  Stuff like that.

 

Another is the Every Five Minute Signal.  You either hear a chime or feel a buzz on your watch every five minutes, and you stop and think, "Is there something I should be doing?"

 

Another is just setting a timer whenever you start doing something tedious, or whenever you start something that will require attention when it's completed.  So, for instance, if you put a pot of water on the stove to boil, you set the timer for 10 minutes and it reminds you to check the stove at that point.  Bonus points if the timer is actually attached to the stove so you have to go back to turn it off. 

 

I'm not saying that everyone should live like this every minute of every day, but in the same way that I compensate for my atrocious and utter lack of a sense of direction by really concentrating, by printing out maps, and by carrying phone numbers and a cell phone with me, so as not to inconvenience others with my problem, it is a kindness to at least try to compensate for EF or ADD issues that effect other people one lives with.

[BooksandBoys]

Yes we all have our little things. In some relationships those will only ever be little things. It started out like that at my place, and some years later adequate food and sleep were being classed as little things that shouldn't have to be the way *I* thought they should be.

 

 

I think people's perceptions on this are going to vary considerably depending which side of the very fuzzy DV line people have lived on.

Exactly.

 

I completely understood the article. I can guarantee that my good friend would be shaking her head at the absurdity of the same article. We have different life experiences and different marriages built on those life experiences.

 

Edited because I CAN spell.

Edited January 24, 2016 by BooksandBoys

[8circles]

I do all of these things. I still miss things. There are only so many hours in a day that I can be on this high alert. I make it through most mornings, if I've slept well. Afternoons are hit or miss, depending on several factors.

 

There are strategies to compensate for ADHD, and I suspect that some of them would be helpful to those with EF issues as well.

 

One is the Threshold Pause. Every time you cross a threshold, you look back to see whether you left something undone behind you, just a quick visual scan of the room. Is that a peanut butter jar with the lid off? Should that wad of gum on the counter be either in your mouth or in the garbage? Stuff like that.

 

Another is the Every Five Minute Signal. You either hear a chime or feel a buzz on your watch every five minutes, and you stop and think, "Is there something I should be doing?"

 

Another is just setting a timer whenever you start doing something tedious, or whenever you start something that will require attention when it's completed. So, for instance, if you put a pot of water on the stove to boil, you set the timer for 10 minutes and it reminds you to check the stove at that point. Bonus points if the timer is actually attached to the stove so you have to go back to turn it off.

 

I'm not saying that everyone should live like this every minute of every day, but in the same way that I compensate for my atrocious and utter lack of a sense of direction by really concentrating, by printing out maps, and by carrying phone numbers and a cell phone with me, so as not to inconvenience others with my problem, it is a kindness to at least try to compensate for EF or ADD issues that effect other people one lives with.

Has anyone said that people with ec issues should get a pass? Because I'm not hearing that. People have started discussing ef issues because lots of posts were equating leaving out a glass with disrespect, assuming that everyone's brain works the same.

Edited January 24, 2016 by 8circles