For regentrude--ADHD and time (a funny)

[maize]

Something that happened this afternoon reminded me of our recent discussion about folks with ADHD and their trouble with time. I was sitting at my kitchen table, across from the stove, and wishing I knew what time it was so I would know when to expect Dh home. Anyway, it was probably a couple of minutes later when my eye happened to wander over to the stove and I noticed the time. It was funny because I was happy to know what time it was but, in all my wondering about the time, it somehow hadn't occurred to me to look over at the clock on the stove.

 

Clocks and calendars and schedules and plans are only helpful to us to the extent that we can remember to use them consistently :)

 

I really do wish I had a magical solution, especially for my kids. Just got back from a neuropsychology appointment today at which I was informed two of them are at the 4th percentile for executive function ability; I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

[PeterPan]

You're not asking, but we use *alarms* extensively.  I set all the alarms in my ds' kindle and my phone, and they just go off.  They remind us to eat breakfast, lunch, go to classes, etc.  

 

You can also work actively on your sense of time by doing some activities with watching time and estimating elapsed time.  It's something you can actually improve.

[maize]

I need to figure out how to set alarms on the kindle, that could be useful.

 

I do want my kids to get the scaffolding and tools I never did, but gosh it's hard to even know where to start. I know what good EF skills look like from the outside, but I sure don't know what they look like on the inside...

[maize]

What stood out to me about this situation though wasn't about sense of time, or scheduling, or anything similar. It was that *given the problem of not knowing what time it was* I somehow failed to recognize and the obvious solution of looking at the clock.

 

And I don't know why, except that this kind of thing happens to me often--I do things that appear dumb and illogical (or perhaps more often fail to do things that should be obvious) because somehow I don't grasp in the moment things that should be obvious--not that I can't understand them (I mean, of course I know that clocks tell time!) but it's like there's some disconnect in my brain. There is just a lot of chaos in my brain, and I can kind of tell from the outside that a lot of people's brains are more orderly but I can't make mine be orderly.

 

I don't dislike my brain, it often puts things together in very creative and useful ways. But it really, really needs a secretary with a good filing and communication system.

Edited January 2, 2016 by maize

[Ellesmere]

I recently told my husband the wrong date and so he set the kitchen clock a day or two off. It has a date function and you would think I would have picked up my phone and checked the date but I was just so certain. And then I meant to go fix it but I got sidetracked and didn't fix it right away.

 

I grew up in a house where the clocks were different in every room. I never knew what time it really was (this was before cell phones and internet, and I knew one clock was correct but could never remember which) so that combined with my natural time dysfunction and ADHD made for an interesting childhood. I am not biologically related to the person who set the clocks all crazy in our home, either. We just both ended up being complete space cadets and living in the same house.

 

I often forget to set the alarms. And if I do remember to set them, I forget to turn the sound on my phone so that I would even hear it.

 

I do use timers because if I am timing myself or something I remember to put the volume on and start the timer on my phone. Usually.

 

I make the best plans and lists and have a hard time remembering to use them. Same with my calendar. I have gotten better now that I have stuck with a particular planner but it doesn't fit in my purse and I am afraid I will lose it if I take it from my desk to any other room anyway so it only helps when I am at the computer.

 

Sorry to ramble but it is nice to know I am not the only one that has trouble with time.

[maize]

I recently told my husband the wrong date and so he set the kitchen clock a day or two off. It has a date function and you would think I would have picked up my phone and checked the date but I was just so certain. And then I meant to go fix it but I got sidetracked and didn't fix it right away.

 

I grew up in a house where the clocks were different in every room. I never knew what time it really was (this was before cell phones and internet, and I knew one clock was correct but could never remember which) so that combined with my natural time dysfunction and ADHD made for an interesting childhood. I am not biologically related to the person who set the clocks all crazy in our home, either. We just both ended up being complete space cadets and living in the same house.

 

I often forget to set the alarms. And if I do remember to set them, I forget to turn the sound on my phone so that I would even hear it.

 

I do use timers because if I am timing myself or something I remember to put the volume on and start the timer on my phone. Usually.

 

I make the best plans and lists and have a hard time remembering to use them. Same with my calendar. I have gotten better now that I have stuck with a particular planner but it doesn't fit in my purse and I am afraid I will lose it if I take it from my desk to any other room anyway so it only helps when I am at the computer.

 

Sorry to ramble but it is nice to know I am not the only one that has trouble with time.

 

Yes, it is nice to know there are others who are just as spacey :)

 

The call-out to regentrude in the title was because of an earlier discussion where she wondered why ADHD folks with a poor sense of time didn't just compensate by looking at clocks more often (at least, that was the gist as I remember it); my failure to think of looking at the clock when I wanted to know the time reminded me of that conversation and what I had tried to explain at the time--the the entire ADHD/poor executive function package makes such seemingly obvious solutions quite difficult :)

[Ellesmere]

Oh, I have been trying to remember that thread because I think I remember reading regentrude being puzzled or wondering about people - - something about why would time feel differently for anyone? I can't remember exactly but I do remember lurking and thinking - - she would not know what to make of people like me (and dh... and our kids, so far :(). I know I sound really dim but yeah, just no sense of time here and I realize the clock is as available to me as anyone else.

 

And I so admire people like regentrude (hope that doesn't sound creepy--I read way more than I post) and wish I were normal or organized but still... I don't know. Like you said, there is a nice creative side to it.

 

I do actually manage to be early almost all the time for appointments because I have so little sense of time and hate that feeling when I am late. But otherwise, story of my life - - lost in time and space, losing things, not doing the seemingly obvious. I am doing slightly better now that I am on meds but I imagine earlier intervention would have helped more. I grew up with no one like me (the crazy clock setter is only weird with clocks, otherwise normal executive function skills) and was diagnosed a bit late. Sorry to ramble more! It has been on my mind, with the new year and wondering if I bother setting organizational goals.

 

Anyway, good luck. If I had a magic spell for my kids, I would give them the EF skills. I do have one that seems much less inattentive; time will tell.

[PeterPan]

Maize, I don't know how much you want to talk about it.  If somebody gives a person information or ideas and they aren't ready for them, it's just a waste of time, kwim?  When I read your description, yes several explanations popped into my mind.  There could be even more, as I think about it.  One that has nothing to do with disabilities is just low thyroid.  That would create brain fog.  ADHD also has executive function deficits.  

 

Then when you walk through those, then you start to get into the more interesting stuff.   :)  Like peripheral vision.  You don't really think about your peripheral vision much, but there are some people who posit that a lot of the cognitive rigidity about locations is because the people have poor peripheral visions and literally don't have the things in their field of vision, even when they're relatively close!  I have that issue (rituals on location, rigidity), and in fact it turns out that's the case for me.  You can do vision therapy exercises to improve peripheral vision.  It can be part of an explanation, kwim?  I don't think it has to be just *one* explanation.  The clock could have been out of your field of vision (even when looking at something very close to it!), thus it wasn't on your radar as an option.

 

What you were describing also sounded like initiation and problem solving.  I don't know how many labels (in DSM) that's associated with, so I won't talk labels.  I'm just sayign that's what it sounded like.  And that does happen, where the person is there, attending, but their brains aren't going through the steps to initiate the movement or response.  So you'll get scenarios where the person isn't responding to speech or a problem or whatever.  I'm not sure that this particular thing has much of a do about, and I certainly don't consider it a moral issue.  It can be sort of humorous if we realize it's happening and start to watch for it more and maybe self-monitor.  Then you can realize how often you're not responding.

 

The kindle has a clock app included.  It's stock with the machine, not something separate you had to download.  Look in the apps.  We use it a TON on my ds' kindle.  It's not perfect, but it's adequate and worth trying.  My ds has 10-15 alarms set.  Seriously.  You can make them all different and have them ring on just the days you need them.  LOVE. To me it's like Sherlock.  Some things just need to drop so your brain can focus on more important things.  I do tons of alarms, so I don't have to remember ANYTHING like that and can let that stuff drop.  

 

There's some thought process that working on ANY area of EF will stimulate the EF portion of the brain and give an overall boost.  I think this explains a lot of the function boost people get with VT.  So basically, you could do ANYTHING for EF and probably get some improvement.  Linguisystems has workbooks.  You can do a hack/homemade version of Interactive Metronome.  Whatever you want.

 

Edited January 2, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Minerva]

This reminds me of a time recently when I had something in the oven set at 350 degrees. My husband asked me what time it was. I read the digital clock on the stove, and I told him it was 3:50. A little while later he asked me again what time it was and I said 3:50. At this point my dh realized what was going on, but I still had no idea. He asked me again a short time later and to me it was still 3:50.

[Grantmom]

I use alarms on my phone a lot.  Mostly because I just have such a crazy schedule that varies so much from day to day.  I don't want to get distracted and forget that I have to leave the house at 2:00 to make it to the meeting, or whatever it is, so I use alarms for stuff like that a lot!

[RootAnn]

Just a general comment ... people who don't have EF issues or who aren't closely related to people with some sort of learning challenge / special need just don't get that things aren't always as obvious/easy as they think.

 

I'm always so grateful to people like the OP who aren't afraid to explain their own brand of special to everyone else. Sometimes, it helps some of us have a light bulb moment about ourselves or one of our dc because we can't imagine anything different than what we've experience until someone explains it to us.

[Cosmos]

Just a general comment ... people who don't have EF issues or who aren't closely related to people with some sort of learning challenge / special need just don't get that things aren't always as obvious/easy as they think.

 

I'm always so grateful to people like the OP who aren't afraid to explain their own brand of special to everyone else. Sometimes, it helps some of us have a light bulb moment about ourselves or one of our dc because we can't imagine anything different than what we've experience until someone explains it to us.

 

Very true. My ds has some EF challenges that are just foreign to both dh and me. It's difficult not to get frustrated when something seems so easy and obvious to us -- like, LOOK AT THE CLOCK.  :lol: For my ds it might be something like starting work on an assignment without reading the assignment first.  :huh:

 

There is one area that all three of us are really weak at, and I'm never sure whether that's good, because it helps us empathize with each other, or bad, because nobody can pick up the slack.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't have any likes left but like what RootAnn and Cosmos said. 

[Arcadia]

My dad doesn't remember he is wearing his watch when outside. He would look around for a wall clock. I understand the disconnect. He can have all the required documents and still find fill in the blanks for income tax stressful. My brother is milder but anything off schedule is hard.

[Sahamamama]

You're not asking, but we use *alarms* extensively.  I set all the alarms in my ds' kindle and my phone, and they just go off.  They remind us to eat breakfast, lunch, go to classes, etc.  

 

You can also work actively on your sense of time by doing some activities with watching time and estimating elapsed time.  It's something you can actually improve.

 

I agree with this, and it's a skill worth working on. I've thought about this all year, especially in relation to one of my daughters, who can really lose track of time. So we've been working on it.

 

One activity I have her do is to take her Daily Work List and look over the whole thing before she starts to work on any of the assignments. She's learned to estimate the amount of time each piece might take, schedule in any transitions and/or breaks, and basically figure out where she should be and when. She writes in target times for some things. This has been so helpful for her (and me).

 

Another thing we do is to "guess the time." Without looking at a clock, I'll say, "Does anyone know what time it is?" and then we all guess. I'm usually within about ten minutes of the actual time, and the girls are amazed that I can consistently do this. It's funny, because I have never worn a watch (can't stand the feeling on my wrist), but have always been able to estimate the time. The girls are getting better at doing this, so it can improve with practice.

 

Every evening, as a family, we go over what we did that day and what is coming up. We'll say something like, "Today was Wednesday, Month Date, and we did X, Y, and Z. Tomorrow will be Thursday, Month Date, and our goals are to do A, B, and C." Then we briefly outline the rest of the week, perhaps the weekend, and into the following week. Since my husband travels for work, this is helpful for all of us to gain a sense of how the next few days and weeks will flow.

 

We're like Elizabeth's family -- we set alarms to remind us to stop doing school work, so we can eat in time, get our "stuff" pulled together in time, and leave on time to wherever we're going. LOL.

 

My sister, at 50, still loses her keys all the time! I think, "Can't you just get a hook to put them on?" Turns out she has the hook, but forgets to put the keys on it.

[The Girls' Mom]

The smart phone has been a huge blessing for us.  My oldest dd and I use alerts and alarms from our phones extensively.  It is the only way dd has been able to show up at work or school on time.  She even sets an alarm for "Stop hanging out with your friends at school, it is time to go home!" lol.  

She has issues with sensing how much time has passed as well.  15 minutes for her may as well be 2 hours.   

ETA:  My dh totally does not get our scattered minds.  For example, my dd's gas gage is no longer working properly.  His solution?  Reset the odometer every time you fill up the tank.  Which in theory works just fine, but in practice is something that dd and I would never remember to do.  He just looked at me dumbfounded when I informed him that we could never manage to do that.

Edited January 3, 2016 by The Girls' Mom

[maize]

 

My sister, at 50, still loses her keys all the time! I think, "Can't you just get a hook to put them on?" Turns out she has the hook, but forgets to put the keys on it.

Yep. Dh does this even more than I do--he's got a spot for his keys and wallet, but they frequently end up elsewhere. The thing with me is that it often doesn't even register in my brain that I am putting my keys down--I don't remember to put them on their hook because I'm not even aware that I am holding them.

 

We naturally tend to assume that the people around us are experiencing life pretty much the way we ourselves do. The reality though is that different brains can result in very different experiences.

 

For a long time I believed that all my little failures were just the result of insufficient effort, that if I could somehow manage to try hard enough I could overcome the disorganization and general chaos the was so disruptive to my life. I've finally learned that it doesn't work that way. Lack of effort never was my problem, I'm just working within the limitations of my own brain. I need to find the right tools and build the right scaffold to make my life work given the constraints I having because willpower and effort are not going to make the underlying difficulties go away.

[ktgrok]

Alarms don't work for me. I hear the alarm go off, and think "oh, it's time to go start dinner! I'll do that as soon as I finish folding this load of laundry. I'm almost done and if I walk away now I'll forget to finish it later." I then proceed to finish folding the laundry and totally forget to start dinner, or whatever the alarm was for. This almost ALWAYS happens. The only reason I don't burn the house down is I have trained myself to check if the oven is on pretty much every time I walk in the kitchen. 

 

I have found having my fitbit on my wrist, with the time, helps me a bit. But I certainly do forget to look at it. And for me,if I'm not seeing time elapse it didn't happen. 

[PeterPan]

Alarms don't work for me. I hear the alarm go off, and think "oh, it's time to go start dinner! I'll do that as soon as I finish folding this load of laundry. I'm almost done and if I walk away now I'll forget to finish it later." I then proceed to finish folding the laundry and totally forget to start dinner, or whatever the alarm was for. This almost ALWAYS happens. The only reason I don't burn the house down is I have trained myself to check if the oven is on pretty much every time I walk in the kitchen. 

 

I have found having my fitbit on my wrist, with the time, helps me a bit. But I certainly do forget to look at it. And for me,if I'm not seeing time elapse it didn't happen. 

I don't know if you're actually asking, but the way to deal with that is to have routines.  Why are you starting laundry when it's close to dinner?  Get a bigger washer (front-loader) and run it at a non-dinner time.  For instance, my dh washes his clothes and ds' (just being honest, lol) on Sundays when he gets home from church.  We eat lunch while they're washing, he pops them in the dryer, he putzes around for a bit, hangs them up, then he goes to nap.  It's a routine to solve the problem.  As you say, if you have working memory issues (or just a lot of stress and tons to do!), things are going to drop.  

 

I had forgotten how much time regular top-loader washers and dryers take till we were using them at the assisted living this week.  They take a LONG TIME!  If that's what you're using, going to a high-efficiency top loader could be a real treat.  A load of quick wash (your clothes, not your muddiest muddies) will wash in 25 minutes and dry even faster.  

 

There is a professional called an education therapist, and there is a certifying org for it.  They help people with the EF skills for their lives, school work, etc.  And yes, I would agree that the alarms can't help you if you don't give them power and authority.  

 

PS.  If the laundry isn't put away, just dump it on the person's bed.  That way they (hopefully, lol) don't forget!   :D

Edited January 3, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[ktgrok]

Laundry was just an example. My point was more that when the alarm goes off I think, "oh, okay...I'll do that in a minute" and then forget. My son does too..many times he's made food in the microwave, heard it beep, then forgotten to go get the food out. An hour later he'll still be hungry and confused as to why!

[MerryAtHope]

Laundry was just an example. My point was more that when the alarm goes off I think, "oh, okay...I'll do that in a minute" and then forget. My son does too..many times he's made food in the microwave, heard it beep, then forgotten to go get the food out. An hour later he'll still be hungry and confused as to why!

 

LOL, just the other day my son did this! Thankfully I went to make a cup of tea not long after, and saw his lunch in the microwave!

[8circles]

I've done so many of these things.  It's nice to know I'm not alone.

[ktgrok]

I will say the biggest help is a routine. Once the routine is broken it all is over. But even getting into a routine that works is hard. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I will say the biggest help is a routine. Once the routine is broken it all is over. But even getting into a routine that works is hard. 

Yes, this.  If I can get outside scaffolding in place to help me create the routine in the first place, and can get it really established, it works out well, especially if I also have alarms on my smart phone for every single thing.  If that routine gets derailed it is soooooo hard to reestablish it.  The alarms don't really work without the routine and the routine doesn't really work without the alarms but if both are in place we do well here.  I have to have something besides just the alarms to get the routine going in the first place, though.  

 

My mom thrives on routine and is really rigid about it.  I used to find that annoying and wondered why she was so rigid about her routine.  It wasn't until I was older and realized just how non-functional she is without routine that I realized why she is so rigid.  Her EF issues are worse than mine by a long shot.  Routine is the only way her bills get paid, her house gets clean, etc.