If your child was planning career in Chemical Engineering or Electrical Engineering...

[housemouse]

If your child was planning career in Chemical Engineering or Electrical Engineering...

 

what should their math and science look like staring grade 8 (and high school).

 

This child is finishing off Saxon Algebra 1 about 3/4 way through 7th grade right now.

 

Thank you in advance.

[school17777]

This is what my ds is planning on declaring as his major once he's a jr (his school you don't declare until then). I would find out what the expectations are for the school that he is planning on applying to. I'd try to have him complete AP Calc, AP Chemistry, and Physics by his senior year.

 

 

Eta: Assuming Biology would be completed too.

Edited December 24, 2015 by school17777

[Shellydon]

I would make sure he/she completed math through Calculus, took Biology,  Chemistry, Physics then a 4th year of either Chemistry 2 or Advanced Physics.

[Arcadia]

My oldest is in 6th so obviously not BTDT.

 

Quoted below (copied from UCB website which is in-state for us) is the minimum that hubby and I are looking at. (ETA: all my cousins and nephews are engineering grads with one nephew currently undergraduate in industrial systems engineering. Hubby is electrical engin, I am civil engin)

 

"Freshmen must take the ACT Assessment plus Writing or the SAT Reasoning Test. Engineering applicants are also strongly encouraged to take the SAT Subject Test in Math Level 2 as well as a SAT Subject Test in science (Biology E.M., Chemistry or Physics) in order to be as competitive as possible."

 

"Since engineering admission is very competitive, applicants must do more than the minimum, particularly in math and science. Exceeding minimum requirements and doing well in these subjects will prepare new students for the rigors of engineering at the university level."

 

"A minimum of two years of laboratory science is required for admission. We strongly recommend completing physics even if the minimum has been completed. "

 

ETA:

Tentative Plan for math and science (most of his class are already outsourced)

 

7th - AP Physics 1 & 2, biology, aops precalculus review, calculus

8th - chemistry, physics review, aops calculus

9th - Physics C, calc BC

10th - AP chemistry, DE math

11th - AP bio or DE science, DE math

12th - DE science and math

 

ETA:

Your child can check for conference in the area and attend the panel sessions. My kids attend the panel sessions as family guests of attendees and no one will ask who you are a guest of.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Arcadia

[MarkT]

MATH

after Saxon Algebra 1 supplement with Foersters Algebra 1 or similar to finish the year

Geometry 

Algebra 2  - recommend Foersters over Saxon for Engineers

Precalc

Calc 1

Statistics

 

SCIENCE

8th grade - Physical science 

9th grade -  look into Clover Creek Physics or similar

Biology 

Chemistry

AP Physics 1 or C

AP Physics 2 or C

 

 

 

[cbollin]

My oldest is a sophomore in college, dual major electrical engineering and computer science. minor in math.

 

Math:  did the sequence recommended in MFW's stuff. (starting 8th grade....)  Saxon Alg 1, Jacob's Geometry, Saxon Alg 2, Saxon Advanced. 

then, 12th grade: used Sullivan's Unit Trig for self study fill in gaps on Trig topics, and  (non college credit) Calc we used a MOOC on coursera.  That way she was learning from lectures and meeting deadlines.    She was glad to take Calc 1 in freshman fall year even as review.   As a college freshman first semester, everything felt new to her so not being in Calc 2 for first semester a good thing.   She got A in Calc 1, 2 and diff eq.  and is a tutor in math center at her university (which is a top ranked regional school, with ABET accreditation)

 

Science:  ok, I"m not the WTM poster child here.  wink. We did (ready to gasp out loud)  Apologia. general, physical, biology, chemistry, physics.  12th grade, did a non credit coursera physics class.  Again, this helped her be ready for college lectures and deadlines.  She received A's in labs.  (in fact, she actually has 4.0 gpa after 3 semesters.. )

 

I know we did not apply to "fancy name", top 30 schools in the nation.  Her university is well respected in engineering in our area and is a top rank in the USNews regional rankings.   We did not have to have SAT subject, or AP to get in.   That apparently is going to be needed if your child applies to "wow them with the name" undergrad.

 

My daughter has not screamed at me for picking the wrong books. She was college ready. and I already bragged on her college gpa.  

 

She does seem to want to share that she would hope you would consider contacting any local colleges with IEEE groups and seeing about getting involved in pre-college special events they may offer.    She has had fun working with student in local high school who attend these events and olympiads and such.   Look for the outreach events and go to them.

 

I sometimes feel a little weird on this forum in that we did not do AP or dual enrollment.  But then again, my daughter wasn't interested in going to fancy name large school.  She's at a smaller place, well respected, ABET accredited. solid rep for graduates getting jobs.     She's actively involved in IEEE group and other stuff.

 

I'd say pick a strong college prep route.  make sure to be ready for Calc as a freshman in college. and make sure you get Chemistry and Physics done in high school.   They don't have to enter college as sophomores.   (She had some general ed requirements done via CLEP, and even that was not while in high school, but the summer after freshman year..  got that Literature requirement done.  )

 

I might be the fluke on it.  but seeing where my dd is..  it worked out

[regentrude]

I teach physics at an engineering school and can tell you : THE absolutely most important thing will be math. I would opt for the strongest math program and not care about "getting done" early.

It does not really matter whether the student had physics in high school (although it makes it easier) - engineering physics at college will be taught without assuming any prior knowledge. It is the math skills that ultimately decide student's placement, possible course sequence, and success.

I would try to get an intro to calculus in high school if possible, but retaking calc 1 and going through the complete calc sequence at college may not be a bad thing. OTOH, algebra needs to be rock solid. That's where most of our struggling students are lacking.  Find a curriculum that teaches good problem solving skills, not just rote procedures.

Edited December 24, 2015 by regentrude

[Hilltopmom]

My oldest is a sophomore in college, dual major electrical engineering and computer science. minor in math.

 

Math: did the sequence recommended in MFW's stuff. (starting 8th grade....) Saxon Alg 1, Jacob's Geometry, Saxon Alg 2, Saxon Advanced.

then, 12th grade: used Sullivan's Unit Trig for self study fill in gaps on Trig topics, and (non college credit) Calc we used a MOOC on coursera. That way she was learning from lectures and meeting deadlines. She was glad to take Calc 1 in freshman fall year even as review. As a college freshman first semester, everything felt new to her so not being in Calc 2 for first semester a good thing. She got A in Calc 1, 2 and diff eq. and is a tutor in math center at her university (which is a top ranked regional school, with ABET accreditation)

 

Science: ok, I"m not the WTM poster child here. wink. We did (ready to gasp out loud) Apologia. general, physical, biology, chemistry, physics. 12th grade, did a non credit coursera physics class. Again, this helped her be ready for college lectures and deadlines. She received A's in labs. (in fact, she actually has 4.0 gpa after 3 semesters.. )

 

I know we did not apply to "fancy name", top 30 schools in the nation. Her university is well respected in engineering in our area and is a top rank in the USNews regional rankings. We did not have to have SAT subject, or AP to get in. That apparently is going to be needed if your child applies to "wow them with the name" undergrad.

 

My daughter has not screamed at me for picking the wrong books. She was college ready. and I already bragged on her college gpa.

 

She does seem to want to share that she would hope you would consider contacting any local colleges with IEEE groups and seeing about getting involved in pre-college special events they may offer. She has had fun working with student in local high school who attend these events and olympiads and such. Look for the outreach events and go to them.

 

I sometimes feel a little weird on this forum in that we did not do AP or dual enrollment. But then again, my daughter wasn't interested in going to fancy name large school. She's at a smaller place, well respected, ABET accredited. solid rep for graduates getting jobs. She's actively involved in IEEE group and other stuff.

 

I'd say pick a strong college prep route. make sure to be ready for Calc as a freshman in college. and make sure you get Chemistry and Physics done in high school. They don't have to enter college as sophomores. (She had some general ed requirements done via CLEP, and even that was not while in high school, but the summer after freshman year.. got that Literature requirement done. )

 

I might be the fluke on it. but seeing where my dd is.. it worked out

Now I'm dying to know what college she attends:) but it's ok if you don't want to share too

[cbollin]

Hilltopmom.

 

I'll be a mix here of sharing and not sharing.  giggle.

 

look on UsNews ranking for this year.   go to south region.  number 27.  I thought it was 25.    (CBU)

It was an ideal fit for her.  Size was small (most classes 20 or fewer students per section).  She wanted to stay relatively local to home. (her preference).   Like I said, it's not a top 30 National Research university.   so my mileage could really be different.  Her ACT was enough to get their top non competition scholarship along with other scholarships/grants.   She was a runner up to the competitive full tuition one.   

 

I'm sometimes embarrassed that we didn't do the outside teachers (co-op) or AP or DE.   Her outside teacher letter of rec came from, get this.... Bible study/sunday school teachers.  She had the same 2 ladies teaching for that class for 5 years.  The other was a youth pastor.  That's who knew her academically away from home.

 

We followed the college prep path at our cover school. (which uses the state recommendations for college prep).    Picked science path of Biology chemistry and physics, and then pick a favorite in 12th.    She was in calc class last year with other freshman who didn't have any Calculus in high school.

 

mileage will vary.  some schools are way more selective and competitive and if one is going that route, do as much as you can. 

[linders]

Not answering your question (others will do that well), but a plug...

 

I am a Chem E grad (Masters) who ultimately went into an environmental remediation branch, ending up as a senior manager. Please, please, emphasize writing skills, especially skills in summarizing processes and results clearly. For years I managed other engineers, very bright people, who did some great work and who could not, for the life of them, convey their results, ideas, and issues to management. I spent most of my time talking to them to identify their key points, then rewriting their papers and presentations. I really couldn't teach a 40-something engineer how to write at that point in his life.

 

DC who intend to go into STEM fields do not need to be creative writers. In fact, creative writing can get in the way. They should be able to state the problem/issue in layman's terms, outline the steps taken to address it, convey the outcomes, and identify any followup needed. 

 

Thank you :)

 

 

Edited December 25, 2015 by linders

[KarenC]

Dd is a freshman in chemical engineering with a math minor.  She took Calculus at our local LAC and she took 1 semester of biology, 3 of chemistry, and 1 of physics all with labs.  I think math would be the hold up for most kids.  Have him take as much math as possible.

[KarenC]

Not answering your question (others will do that well), but a plug...

 

I am a Chem E grad (Masters) who ultimately went into an environmental remediation branch, ending up as a senior manager. Please, please, emphasize writing skills, especially skills in summarizing processes and results clearly. For years I managed other engineers, very bright people, who did some great work and who could not, for the life of them, convey their results, ideas, and issues to management. I spent most of my time talking to them to identify their key points, then rewriting their papers and presentations. I really couldn't teach a 40-something engineer how to write at that point in his life.

 

DC who intend to go into STEM fields do not need to be creative writers. In fact, creative writing can get in the way. They should be able to state the problem/issue in layman's terms, outline the steps taken to address it, convey the outcomes, and identify any followup needed. 

 

Thank you :)

I completely agree.  I think everyone should be a strong writer, regardless of major.

[housemouse]

Not answering your question (others will do that well), but a plug...

 

I am a Chem E grad (Masters) who ultimately went into an environmental remediation branch, ending up as a senior manager. Please, please, emphasize writing skills, especially skills in summarizing processes and results clearly. For years I managed other engineers, very bright people, who did some great work and who could not, for the life of them, convey their results, ideas, and issues to management. I spent most of my time talking to them to identify their key points, then rewriting their papers and presentations. I really couldn't teach a 40-something engineer how to write at that point in his life.

 

DC who intend to go into STEM fields do not need to be creative writers. In fact, creative writing can get in the way. They should be able to state the problem/issue in layman's terms, outline the steps taken to address it, convey the outcomes, and identify any followup needed. 

 

Thank you :)

Thank you for that particular point. That would be one point that my child will be very happy to hear. He is very short/sweet and to the point writer and absolutely despises anything that is creative writing.

[Pegasus]

I politely disagree with some of the recommendations already given and agree with others. It is NOT necessary to "take as much math as possible" and is much more important to be completely solid on math skills through precalculus.  I would much rather a student go into a freshman engineering program having solid math skills through precalc than a student who had done calculus in high school but was shaky in algebra or trig.

 

So, no rushing through math.  Take the opposite approach and take your time, ensuring solid understanding as you go.  Your student will be thanking you later.

 

Yes to the writing skills. My current job requires little true engineering from me; I'm too busy reviewing and re-writing the technical reports and publication manuscripts of co-workers who lack this ability.

[justasque]

...THE absolutely most important thing will be math. I would opt for the strongest math program and not care about "getting done" early.

...retaking calc 1 and going through the complete calc sequence at college may not be a bad thing.

..algebra needs to be rock solid.

...Find a curriculum that teaches good problem solving skills, not just rote procedures.

 

 

...be completely solid on math skills through precalculus.  

...no rushing through math.  ...take your time, ensuring solid understanding as you go.  

 

All of the above.  Your student should be able to lay out a problem well - labeling the work with page and exercise number, listing knowns & unknowns, defining variables, drawing a sketch if appropriate, proceeding with the work logically down the page, showing "sidebar" calculations off to the side, labeling any graphs (axis variables and scale, ordered pairs for important data points, etc.), giving an answer complete with applicable units and to the appropriate number of decimal places, expressing the answer to a word problem in a complete sentence.

 

Your student should have a lot of experience with a variety of word problems, mixed up rather than just all-of-a-kind (to avoid "If we're in the chapter on linear inequalities, I probably have to use a linear inequality to solve it.").  They should be able to articulate a variety of problem-solving techniques - draw a picture, use a formula, guess-and-check, make a table, and so on - that they can try if they're not sure where to begin.  They should know, in their bones, that problem-solving is not a linear thing - it's ok to go down a road that might not turn out to be fruitful; they are not expected to know how to solve a problem instantaneously, rather, they are expected to have a toolbox full of skills and processes they can draw on to approach any problem they may be given.  They should be very agile with algebraic skills, and have a good number sense (being able to quickly determine if a fraction is more or less than one-half, knowing how to tell if a large number is evenly divisible (by two, three, five, nine, ten), and so on.

[laundrycrisis]

Not just good at math but in particular word problems - especially those requiring multiple steps of calculations.  A good thing to learn is how to write a problem statement, list assumptions, and show calculations clearly with all units labeled.  I felt that once the general requirement classes were done, engineering school was 3+ years of word problems.  

Edited December 27, 2015 by Laundrycrisis2

[mbrady]

Do you think a strong proof-based geometry class, such as Jacob's geometry, is important for future engineers?  My son is on the Saxon track with geometry built into algebra 1, 2, and advanced math.  Is that enough?

[justasque]

Do you think a strong proof-based geometry class, such as Jacob's geometry, is important for future engineers?  My son is on the Saxon track with geometry built into algebra 1, 2, and advanced math.  Is that enough?

 

I won't comment on Jacobs specifically, as it's been some time since I taught it, but I do feel that a strong experience with proofs is valuable preparation for an engineering field of study.  The very strict rules of having to prove something before using it, and having to have a clear understanding of what is given/known vs. what may seem obvious or able to be assumed but in fact is not actually known or proven yet, is excellent experience for all kinds of problem-solving and trouble-shooting - something that engineers do all the time.  Proofs require you to poke at the parameters of a problem, to see if they are firmly fixed or can be altered as part of a solution.  They may require you to ask, "What happens if I...." and try a number of different paths  before you get to a solution.  They help you see that sometimes there is more than one path to the solution, or perhaps the parameters are such that there is no solution at all.  And of course the visual-spatial thinking is useful.  

 

I know that some folks have done Saxon all the way through and found it useful preparation for college-level math work.  I, however, am in the camp that says the more problem-solving the better, ideally including a wide range of complex problems that push the student to think beyond what has been explicitly taught.  While Saxon may do some of this, I feel there are other texts that are a better choice. 

[Arcadia]

Do you think a strong proof-based geometry class, such as Jacob's geometry, is important for future engineers? My son is on the Saxon track with geometry built into algebra 1, 2, and advanced math. Is that enough?

This thread would answer your question

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/457455-how-critical-are-formal-proofs-in-geometry-for-a-future-engineer/

[GoodGrief]

It seems to me that the important bit is knowing how to find information, and then a general solid well rounded education. Don't ignore language arts to fit in an excess of science and math :-)

 

It remains to be seen how my current senior will perform in her engineering courses, but she's been accepted into a number of programs, which I suppose is the first step.

 

She was always a motivated math student, and has completed math through Calc 3 (dual enrollment for Calc 2 and 3), and is currently doing AP Stats. I don't think that much math is necessary, but she enjoyed it. She did Alg 2 in 8th, precalc in 9th, AB in 10th, then Calc 2 and 3 over the summer and through her junior year.  We used Teaching Textbooks through Alg 2, and then Derek Owens.

 

For science, she did physics-9, chem-10, AP Bio-11. Physics and Chem were Apologia, with an outside lab class taught by a retired hs science teacher. He had a past student win a Nobel prize in science, so felt like we were in good hands. ;-) Bio was with AP Homeschoolers. We had her do the SAT subject tests for chem and physics, and the AP exam for bio, just to validate her grades. For senior year, she's doing AP Comp Sci, which I've been told is more math than science. :-)

 

I also agree with the advice to work on writing. My daughter did an advanced comp class for 9th grade, AP Lit for 10th, and AP Lang for 11th.

 

 

 

 

[linders]

Do you think a strong proof-based geometry class, such as Jacob's geometry, is important for future engineers?  My son is on the Saxon track with geometry built into algebra 1, 2, and advanced math.  Is that enough?

 

I am not familiar with the various geometry options, but yes, a strong proof-based course would be highly valuable. Proofs require the same type of logical approach as engineering calculations, step-by-step, providing the assumptions for your work at each step.

[Pegasus]

 Students from our high school, w/o a year of calc, don't get into CO Mines. 

 

From the Colorado School of Mines webpage on admission requirements (http://www.mines.edu/NewFreshmen):

 

4 years of college prep/advanced mathematics (including trig)

[justasque]

...Students from our high school, w/o a year of calc, don't get into CO Mines.

 

From the Colorado School of Mines webpage on admission requirements (http://www.mines.edu/NewFreshmen):

 

4 years of college prep/advanced mathematics (including trig)

For competitive schools, doing the minimum is often not sufficient for admission. According to Wikipedia, Mines' acceptance rate in 2014 was only 36.5%. For competitive schools, the admissions advice is usually to take the most rigorous course of study offered at your school. If a student's school only offers through trig, and the student might have a chance at admission. But if a STEM-aspiring student has access to calc but hasn't taken it, it raises some red flags. In many instances, it may indicate that they have taken lower-level math all four years. There's a BIG difference in pace, rigor, scope, and depth between honors/AP math classes vs. gen ed (and in some schools "college-prep") ones. (There's also a difference from school to school - a school with more STEM-bound students can offer a wider range of rigorous courses. On the flip side, one with few such students may only offer the one rigorous math class/track each year.) If you can't rock an honors/AP high school math class, you won't survive engineering classes in college. Obviously there may be exceptions based on the rest of an individual student's story, but in general I think Margaret's observation about her local high school is likely to be very accurate.

[laundrycrisis]

What I am going to say has nothing to do with admissions.  I fell into engineering as a student transferring in from another major only so I could drop an English class with a jerky unreasonable professor.  Anyway - 

 

I went to college with a terrible math track record.  I had failed Algebra I and had to retake it, so I never even made it to trig in high school.  I had HS chemistry but no physics.  At college, I took college algebra, then business calc, then a remedial trig class.  After that, I transferred into engineering and took two 5 hours courses of calculus, plus diff eq, linear algebra, discrete math, and calculus-based physics.   It was fine to be learning these things at the university.  Not having them mastered before college didn't impact my success in engineering classes.  I know that if someone is looking for admissions criteria, it's best to already have this level of math before college, but I didn't, and I still managed to get into an engineering program and get through the classes.  It took me longer and was probably more expensive this way,  but not having reached this level of math in HS doesn't automatically eliminate someone from engineering. 

[EmilyGF]

I politely disagree with some of the recommendations already given and agree with others. It is NOT necessary to "take as much math as possible" and is much more important to be completely solid on math skills through precalculus.  I would much rather a student go into a freshman engineering program having solid math skills through precalc than a student who had done calculus in high school but was shaky in algebra or trig.

 

So, no rushing through math.  Take the opposite approach and take your time, ensuring solid understanding as you go.  Your student will be thanking you later.

 

Yes to the writing skills. My current job requires little true engineering from me; I'm too busy reviewing and re-writing the technical reports and publication manuscripts of co-workers who lack this ability.

While rushing through math is a bad idea, calculus before college should be a goal for anyone who wants to major in engineering. That can mean extra math in the summer, or doubling up Geometry and Algebra II in one year (since they often don't depend on each other). 

 

Emily

[Pegasus]

This is an excellent discussion and Margaret in CO brings up some very good considerations.  The student's specific goals are critical to planning their high school courses and sequence.  I appreciate learning a bit more about the experiences and observations for the more selective schools and programs. I encourage all potential engineers to research the specific college programs that they are interested in.

 

It is important to keep in mind, however, that failure to be admitted to the most selective engineering programs is not a roadblock to becoming a successful engineer. I went to a run-of-the-mill state university, graduated with my two engineering degrees, and was hired by a large engineering/construction company where I worked side-by-side with folks who graduated from much more prestigious programs/schools.  We earned the same salary at first and had the same benefits.  When it came to promotions, raises, and layoffs, our alma mater mattered not at all.  

 

 

[laundrycrisis]

There were also quite a few nontraditional students who were engineering majors at my school - adults who came back to college after not being successful the first time, or who just started later in life, or who were changing careers.  And after I graduated, I worked with someone like this.  His age and life experience were advantages for him and led to promotions.  

[wapiti]

. 

 

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti

[Arcadia]

Wapiti,

 

For those place in Algebra 1 at 8th, they could take geometry for credit the summer before 9th and then take algebra 2 at 9th. Some take summer class for credit later. The private schools give their students priority for summer academic class for credit then others can enroll if there are vacancies.

 

For DE, kids can do that after they are done with Calc BC but some districts might want kids to finish AP Stats at school as well since they pay for DE at the assigned community college.

 

The high school has credit recovery in summer. So a child who did not pass math in the year can make up the credit in summer and continue with his/her cohort instead of repeating a year of math.

 

ETA:

The AoPS Vol 1 & 2 are worth afterschooling with if you aren't already using AoPS textbooks.

My youngest tend to growth spurt physically, mentally, emotionally. It is hard to tell for kids how fast they may suddenly absorb.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Arcadia

[wapiti]

Thanks Arcadia!  Oddly, it is extraordinarily difficult to find a summer-before-9th geometry for credit in my area.  I looked everywhere for dd's friend.  All the local courses are remedial only, strictly for students who have taken it before.

 

On calc AB vs BC, it seems that here, it depends on the school.  Some schools teach the AB portion and BC portions entirely separately, spreading that second half of BC over a whole school year.  However, at those schools, the stronger students just take BC and self-study the AB portion over the summer before or something.  I'm not entirely clear as there are official math track policies usually available online and then there are unwritten ones heard only by word of mouth or by teacher recommendation or something.

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti

[Arcadia]

Wapiti,

 

Teacher recommendation has more weight here as long as the student pulls a C and above in the prerequisite course.

 

The thing with school placement test here is that it is YMMV even for public schools. A lot of times it is testing the waters by word of mouth then going to the teacher during any open house event and having a chat with them with your children present. Be prepared for the teachers to interview your child, something we didn't know to expect at open houses.

[wapiti]

The AoPS Vol 1 & 2 are worth afterschooling with if you aren't already using AoPS textbooks.

My youngest tend to growth spurt physically, mentally, emotionally. It is hard to tell for kids how fast they may suddenly absorb.

 

Thanks for this suggestion!  That's a good idea, even in another couple years.

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti

[Arcadia]

I am a shy person but I am not afraid to suggest AoPS texts for possible elective courses to the young new math department chair.

I would suggest AMC8, AMC10 because those are individual so no hassle of forming school team, then MathCounts and MOEMS which are more team based. I would suggest AoPS after those.

Also be prepared to volunteer to head the afterschool math club.

 

Also have a good grounding in logic. My engineering dean would say that a BEng is to train us how to think. We can pick up content skills easily and handle postgrad if we want to. Logic is very useful in engineering.

[MomsintheGarden]

Dh and I each have a BSEE, our oldest double majored in CS and math at Virginia Tech (CS in the engineering dept), and our second oldest double majored in biochem and math.  That said, I feel hesitant to reply here because I am not up on the current status of EE and ChemE degree admissions.  Following are some things I do know from experience.

 

I consider Virginia Tech a top engineering school, both now and in the dark ages (the '80s) when dh and I attended, especially for EE and ChemE.  It is most certainly not as theoretical an education as someplace like MIT or Stanford, but graduates have a good job placement rate, etc.  Math at VT for engineers is taught as problem solving to provide tools for the engineering courses.  You are expected to have a good basic understanding of math, a "feel" for it.   VT has a large number of students who come from the DC metro area (Northern Virginia, or NOVA) and Albemarle County/Charlottesville (where UVa is located).  Many of these students have rigorous (at least on paper) high school math and science educations.  One of Ds's roommates had MV calc in high school, not DE, and he was from a town MD near U of Maryland.  Many others have similar backgrounds, especially those who attended Thomas Jefferson HS, which still has a rigorous program.

 

Keep in mind that at many engineering schools the students are required to take a math placement exam at the beginning of freshman year, no matter what classes they took in high school, or what their AP scores or DE grades are.  Many students took a placement exam at VT and found they didn't remember enough of Calc I or II to place ahead.  Also keep in mind that if a student cannot be in lock step with the math sequence at a university, that student will become behind in prereqs for engineering courses and will probably (or most certainly) not be able to graduate on time.  Lots of engineering students are on the 5-year plan, taking reduced loads for 10 semesters so they can maintain a gpa, work a campus job, just keep up, etc.

 

It is much harder to be admitted to VT's engineering program than to the university at large or to even the honors program.  Ds has a friend who was homeschooled through high school, taking some DE classes at the CC, who was accepted to VT and its honors program but rejected from engineering because he had taken no calculus or physics.  The engineering dept said that all the other accepted students that year had taken both.  Ds's friend ended up going to the CC for a year before transferring into the engineering program at UVa.  He graduated successfully, albeit on the 5-year plan, as an ME.

 

Back in the day, DH had only math through precalc through his rural high school.  I had through calc AB and placed out of Calc I at VT.  Calc II was HARD.  I did ok but it took me a while to figure out how to do college math because the pace was twice as fast as at high school.  AB spreads out Calc I for an entire year, so taking Calc II in one semester was a big adjustment.  Plus, my instructor had a chip on his shoulder about women in math/engineering (iow he was an unhelpful jerk).

 

I believe that it is very important for admissions for a potential engineering major to get in a calc class in high school, but I believe it is even more important to be absolutely rock solid in Algebra and Precalc.  I would say that most of the errors students have in Calc are from algebra and trig.  If your student can score at least a 700 on the SAT II Math Level 2 exam (800 or close to it would be better), then you can safely say he/she is ready for Calc.  If not, it is time to review and solidify concepts and skills.

 

The other thing that I believe is very important for a pre-engineering student is to make sure he/she really wants to be a engineer.  Does the student want to work in a chemical or pharmaceutical factory (Chem E)?  How about staring long hours at a computer screen designing a chip for a cell phone?  Does the student have what it takes to stay in the lab for many, many hours of unpaid overtime making sure a project works, or cleaning up the mess of a senior (but inept) engineer's design?  Please make sure the realities of an engineering job are ok with your student.  Also, make sure your student is taught to be careful and detail oriented.  I've seen a lot of messy engineers make their lives and the lives of those they work with miserable because they are sloppy and careless.

 

Just my $0.02, fwiw.

Edited January 3, 2016 by MomsintheGarden

[daijobu]

 

 

...I believe it is even more important to be absolutely rock solid in Algebra and Precalc.  

 

Can you remind me what exactly is PreCalc?  I never took it at my high school.  I went straight from my junior math class (advanced algebra, I think?) to Calculus BC.  

 

What topics are covered in PreCalc?  

[MomsintheGarden]

Can you remind me what exactly is PreCalc? I never took it at my high school. I went straight from my junior math class (advanced algebra, I think?) to Calculus BC.

 

What topics are covered in PreCalc?

I didn't take precalc in high school, either; we had a semester each of advanced algebra and trig. That's basically what Chalkdust, the program we use that uses the Larson precalc book, does, but Larson includes analytic geometry as well. I didn't have analytic geometry until calc. You can check out the list of precalc topics on Chalkdust.com - sorry, I don't know how to link from my iPad. The Larson book spends quite a bit of time reviewing algebra I and II, which I like. We skip the last chapter on limits because it is the same as Chapter 1 of the Larson calc book. Limits are not precalc.

 

The college-prep Larson books do not have stats, so when our 3rd dc prepped for the SAT II Math 2 exam, he made sure he learned the handful of stats concepts from a prep book. I wouldn't say the stats is precalc, but you could also check out the topics for the SAT II Math 2 exam.

 

Both of our oldest two dc did very well as math majors, so they felt they were well prepared by Chalkdust. Dd also thought logic was excellent prep as well. She did feel CD was heavy on computation and said she would have benefited from more proofs. That made me laugh because geometry proofs were a struggle with her. She loved her college proofs class, though! Go figure.