Our AP U.S. Government class - what to do?

[swimmermom3]

This week, my son's AP U.S. Government class work includes the following:

 

Ben Carson and Jesse Jackson on Ferguson

 

Ben Carson on Race

5 Facts on Feminism

Christina Hoff Summers: Feminism

 

Debating DOMA

Chuck Colson on Gay Marriage

Ted Cruz: Houston Mayor 'Should Be Ashamed' Over Subpoenas Sent To Pastors

Houston Mayor Drops Bid

Manhattan Declaration

Chuck Colson on Freedom of Religion

 

 

Critical thinking and analysis do not seem to be a product of this course, nor are they desired.

 

I think we are going to have to admit defeat.

 

The discussions that go with the questions are an academic level or two lower than anything we have ever seen come out of this provider.

 

 

[Paige]

Is there a chance that next week will include similar articles/readings from the opposite perspective?

[mommymilkies]

Some links aren't working for me right now.  Are these from a variety of perspectives and sources? Is this a private religious school?  Because without context to those articles, I would be really really upset.

[swimmermom3]

Is there a chance that next week will include similar articles/readings from the opposite perspective?

 

There is a chance, a small one from what I have seen, but possible.The students read the text chapter last week on "The Struggle for Equal Rights," so I am thinking they will probably move on to the next chapter next week.

 

I believe the text is considered to be presenting "the other side."

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

What fresh hell is that?

 

 

[chiguirre]

That's lame. I think I'd pitch a fit with the provider. I also think you need to name them so I don't sign up for this crap in a couple of years.

[swimmermom3]

Some links aren't working for me right now.  Are these from a variety of perspectives and sources? Is this a private religious school?  Because without context to those articles, I would be really really upset.

 

Hopefully I have fixed the links.

 

The provider serves predominantly conservative homeschoolers, but this has never really been an issue for us.  In fact, it has been good for my son, in that he has had to thoughtfully consider viewpoints often opposite from his own and respond to them. In all of the other classes he has taken, this has been a bonus. I have seen some remarkably skillful debates conducted among students with widely contrasting viewpoints.

 

Ds went ahead with the class because he is interested in international service/policy and felt that he needed to balance his own perspective.

 

Not all of the articles I linked are necessarily problematic.  The "Debating Doma" episode is from PBS and provides both sides.  Christina Hoff Sommers offered a lot of interesting points and we had had some great discussions. Some of the materials are problematic for me from an academic viewpoint. The Chuck Colson article pulls the "study after study after study shows..." trick.  What studies? Who conducted them? What was the methodology?  When countries embrace gay marriage, the marriage rates decline rapidly.  Which countries have experienced this phenomena?  Were marriage rates declining already prior to the adoption of gay marriage?  Was there a significant change in the rate?

What percentage of the population comprises the statistics for gay marriage?

 

I would ask this of any resource.

 

 

[Luckymama]

Lisa, I have to say, I read the info about that US gov class and the comparative gov class last winter and I just got this feeling that it would what Sailor Dude is experiencing.

[RootAnn]

I believe I know the provider, but as I'm not familiar with the teachers, is this a new teacher? 

 

Our family worldview probably skews in the direction of these articles, but I'd dislike any of my dc taking a high school AP class that consisted completely of skewed material without asking the kinds of questions you posed in post #7. I specifically build in multiple points of view once the kids get to middle school so they will be able to see multiple sides, debate perspectives, and question sources. 

 

It is definitely a lesson to learn about online (or brick-and-mortar) classes . . . I'm only two years into using outside providers & I've already learned two (one painful, one not as painful - but still lasting) lessons.  :thumbdown:

Um, thanks for learning it for the rest of us?  :mellow:  :gnorsi:

[swimmermom3]

Lisa, I have to say, I read the info about that US gov class and the comparative gov class last winter and I just got this feeling that it would what Sailor Dude is experiencing.

 

I know, but I was overly optimistic, I guess. :blush:

 

We don't need a confirmation of our viewpoints, and a intelligent,thoughtful deconstruction of them with some really good questions would be welcome.  Then, let's do it on the other side.

 

I think you were on my Hillsdale thread. We have really tried to keep an open mind and for the most part, several of the videos we've seen have been fine.  However, we still can't quite get over this part of Dr. West's commentary on Lecture 5:

 

To Secure These Rights: Economics, Religion, and Character  

 

34:48 - 36:17 is about how marriages were once child-centered, but now they are sentimental, and love-centered. (He mentions that Western childcare increasingly involves the transfer of funds mandated by the government from more productive fathers to less productive mothers who have chosen to live separately from their children's father.)

 

This is the graded discussion topic for this lecture:

 

"Morality as the foundation for the natural law

 

Dr. West discuss the concept that morality was the basis for the natural law and it was considered foundational to our formation.  In fact (at some level) all laws are moral laws that require restraint in some facet of your life.  Why or why not is this important?  Why do people have such a visceral reaction to this idea today?"

 

Would this be a usual question in an AP U.S. Government class?  The class has significantly covered what the founders meant by "natural law."

 

It's an interesting question and ds was looking for laws that didn't seem to meet a moral criteria, like those in 31 states that  allow rapists to get visitation rights to see their children that were products of rape.  He came up with a an interesting list of some rather bizarre laws, but that wasn't the direction the discussion was taking, so he dropped the idea. He argued that he had a problem with the premise of the question. That didn't go too well either. :D

 

 

[J-rap]

This does not seem like a government class to me.  A government class studies how the U.S. government came to be and how it works.  This seems like a class that pushes political opinions and then find sites that justify them.  (I haven't read all of the links, just some.)  I think I would be pretty livid.  How frustrating for you! 

[fourisenough]

Sounds NOTHING like the AP Gov class both of my older girls have taken in PS. I'd be very surprised if the students perform well on the AP test.

 

Edited to add: just re read OP. Maybe this isn't an AP class. Never mind.

[swimmermom3]

Sounds NOTHING like the AP Gov class both of my older girls have taken in PS. I'd be very surprised if the students perform well on the AP test.

 

Edited to add: just re read OP. Maybe this isn't an AP class. Never mind.

 

It is  an AP US Government class.  Thanks for pointing out that I should clarify that. The kids are answering questions regarding the Manhattan Declaration. They are basically required to summarize the main points without critical analysis, at least from the way we read the questions. Responses include things like "Woot, woot, preach it!" Definitely not college-level responses.

 

My son has always been careful and respectful in his discussions in classes with this provider, and overall has very much enjoyed the exchanges and learned from them. This again, is just on a completely different academic level.

 

It feels like two distinct classes:

1) What's on the syllabus for the AP audit

2) What's on a specific political agenda

 

I do appreciate that the unit test doesn't include information from the additional resources.  It's our fault for choosing the class, and if my son survives it, I will leave on the review that it is a class for very conservative students - read, affirmation of political positions, not analysis of political positions.

 

 

[SeaConquest]

This is so disheartening. I was hoping for more from PAHS. 

[swimmermom3]

This is so disheartening. I was hoping for more from PAHS. 

 

We have been very pleased with the other four classes my son has taken from PAHS in previous years. He is also taking the AP Comparative Government class this year from the same instructor and really likes it. He will finish high school with a total of 7 PAHS classes and only one of them isn't living/hasn't lived up to our expectations, but we certainly have a level of responsibility in that disappointment.

[Julie of KY]

Lesson learned.

In your original post you said you thought you were going to have to admit defeat - I read this as maybe dropping the class???

 

I guess you have a few choices:

- Drop the class and do your own thing

- Continue with the class as is - argh!

- Choose to use the class a resource. Pick and choose what you want to use but make yourself the primary teacher of the course and edit it to your delight. Create your own course using this class as a resource for some of the assignments and fill it in with your own. Create your own grading scale based on your course criteria. Not the way you want to go for a class you pay big bucks for, but I'd consider this over completely dropping the class. I'd probably also communicate to the teacher that you will be choosing to have your son ignore certain assignments and possibly you don't want any final grade for the course.

[MarkT]

contact the head of 

http://www.aphomeschoolers.com/

 

and ask them how this class will make the students successful on the AP exam in May

 

if they can't answer then ask for a refund for failure of delivery of services

 

 

[yvonne]

off topic-sorry :)

Edited December 28, 2015 by yvonne

[Sebastian (a lady)]

How would a situation like this would play out on a transcript, especially if the student has taken other courses from the same provider?

 

1) If you used the outsourced AP course as a sort of "spine," but decided not to do certain assignments or to do a different assignment in place of the original, could you still designate the course as "AP" on the transcript, if that mattered to you? I would think not since the "AP" designation is based on following some pre-approved syllabus.

 

2) When you send your student's transcript to the college, it normally includes transcripts from all outside courses, right? If the student has taken other outsourced classes from the same provider, wouldn't the problem AP class also show up on the transcript? If the student hadn't done the assignments, it would affect his grade. Assuming it's possible to take an AP class for no grade, or for pass/fail, would a P/F or no grade be seen negatively on a transcript? Would a 4/5 on the AP exam outweigh a P/F grade or no grade for an AP class?

 

As my oldest move into outsourced AP classes, I've been mulling these questions.

I did not forward grade reports from outside sources that were not accredited. My course descriptions give info on outside courses including what provider was used. I have grade reports if they are requested.

 

So ds sent transcripts of his CC work but not from online language classes.

[nancy in nj]

I'm wondering if the discussion questions/responses being 1-2 levels below the normal PAHS AP classes isn't related to the fact that AP US Gov't is one of the less rigorous AP exams.  As I recall, this is one of the few AP exams in which the FRQ can be answered in bullet-point fashion.   I always viewed AP gov as a nice 9th grade starter AP and can definitely see how a senior who has already taken some of the writing/analysis heavy english or history AP's being disappointed with the caliber of discussion.  Is there a subset of other strong, experienced AP kids in his class that could maybe form a study/discussion group to explore the material at a deeper, more analytical level?  Sort of like the book clubs in some of the english classes?

[justasque]

I would talk to the provider (not the instructor) and ask if this is in line with their general expectations from instructors.  Since it sounds like the course is veering away from the syllabus into current politics and minimizing critical reading and discussion, and since you've been pleased with other courses, there's a chance that the provider is not aware that the instructor is going in this direction.  Give them a chance to make things right.

[swimmermom3]

Lesson learned.

In your original post you said you thought you were going to have to admit defeat - I read this as maybe dropping the class???

 

I guess you have a few choices:

- Drop the class and do your own thing

- Continue with the class as is - argh!

- Choose to use the class a resource. Pick and choose what you want to use but make yourself the primary teacher of the course and edit it to your delight. Create your own course using this class as a resource for some of the assignments and fill it in with your own. Create your own grading scale based on your course criteria. Not the way you want to go for a class you pay big bucks for, but I'd consider this over completely dropping the class. I'd probably also communicate to the teacher that you will be choosing to have your son ignore certain assignments and possibly you don't want any final grade for the course.

 

Julie, I think the part in bold is the way we will go. Thankfully, another board member shared their AP syllabus, so as a back-up I have an approved AP course for transcripts. More importantly, that syllabus gives ds some activities and ideas to explore that offer greater depth than what he is currently doing. I also have both the Lanahan Readings and Peter Woll's American Government book as well as the History of American Political Thought, which I bought for our U.S. History studies this year. Hopefully, if I use these and pull from current news articles, I should be able to offer a variety of viewpoints for analysis.

 

You are right, this is not the way I want to go for an expensive class. I am teaching three courses this year and two of them of very time consuming.  Sailor Dude has four AP courses and the work needs to be thoughtful and relevant. He would like to continue to be graded on the chapter tests because those contain the multiple choice and the FRQ's, but if he does that, he's going to have to accept the lower grade which results from not doing the other assignments. I can take his grade average from the class tests and his average from my work to get a grade.

 

I am trying to come up with a diplomatic way to address this with the instructor. I respect her beliefs and her background, but I am not exactly sure how to say "It's one thing to propose over and over that certain legislation be passed, but in a college-level course, I also expect that the proposed methods of implementation, enforcement, and potential economic, social, and human rights outcomes are analyzed."

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Julie, I think the part in bold is the way we will go. Thankfully, another board member shared their AP syllabus, so as a back-up I have an approved AP course for transcripts. More importantly, that syllabus gives ds some activities and ideas to explore that offer greater depth than what he is currently doing. I also have both the Lanahan Readings and Peter Woll's American Government book as well as the History of American Political Thought, which I bought for our U.S. History studies this year. Hopefully, if I use these and pull from current news articles, I should be able to offer a variety of viewpoints for analysis.

 

You are right, this is not the way I want to go for an expensive class. I am teaching three courses this year and two of them of very time consuming.  Sailor Dude has four AP courses and the work needs to be thoughtful and relevant. He would like to continue to be graded on the chapter tests because those contain the multiple choice and the FRQ's, but if he does that, he's going to have to accept the lower grade which results from not doing the other assignments. I can take his grade average from the class tests and his average from my work to get a grade.

 

I am trying to come up with a diplomatic way to address this with the instructor. I respect her beliefs and her background, but I am not exactly sure how to say "It's one thing to propose over and over that certain legislation be passed, but in a college-level course, I also expect that the proposed methods of implementation, enforcement, and potential economic, social, and human rights outcomes are analyzed."

 

 

I might ask it something like this:

 

"I understand that teachers who are passionate about government are usually also passionate about particular forms they would prefer our government take.  I am concerned that the time spent on investigating one particular viewpoint may reduce the time spent on topics that will dominate the exam.  I am also concerned that the exam will expect a familiarity with several points of view that may not be covered in class.  For example, questions about civil rights and landmark court decisions may expect the student to be able to articulate arguments that don't line up with a traditional conservative view of the role of government or limitations inherent in the US system.  I would appreciate it if class links could include more varied points of view that relate to the topic under discussion."

 

If I thought that a course was significantly diverging from the expected framework of the course, I would not hesitate to write a course description that said the student participated in an online course in the subject in order to have a group participation outlet, but that I added my own materials in order to balance out the course and fill holes.  But I've also put several home grown AP courses on our transcript.

[Julie of KY]

I would try your best to diplomatically communicate with the teacher your goal of continuing the course but choosing to have your son not do all of the assignments as you will be assigning other work at home. I'd ask for a listing of the test grades without a final grade for the course so that you can determine how to incorporate all of the work done into your grading system. (I'd do this after writing something similar to what Sebastian suggests.

[swimmermom3]

I might ask it something like this:

 

"I understand that teachers who are passionate about government are usually also passionate about particular forms they would prefer our government take.  I am concerned that the time spent on investigating one particular viewpoint may reduce the time spent on topics that will dominate the exam.  I am also concerned that the exam will expect a familiarity with several points of view that may not be covered in class.  For example, questions about civil rights and landmark court decisions may expect the student to be able to articulate arguments that don't line up with a traditional conservative view of the role of government or limitations inherent in the US system.  I would appreciate it if class links could include more varied points of view that relate to the topic under discussion."

 

If I thought that a course was significantly diverging from the expected framework of the course, I would not hesitate to write a course description that said the student participated in an online course in the subject in order to have a group participation outlet, but that I added my own materials in order to balance out the course and fill holes.  But I've also put several home grown AP courses on our transcript.

 

If I could give you my daily quota of "likes" for this post, I would. You have eloquently addressed my concerns and I think this would be both a diplomatic and an appropriate approach.

 

Thank you too for addressing the course description. That document has taken me forever and your suggestion is timely as I am about to submit it, finally. 

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Lisa, I'd love to hear an update, if you'd care to share.  :)

 

 

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Yikes, this makes me worried since I am thinking of PAHS for ds for highschool classes. Please tell me this class was an single anomaly. I would want my money back too if this happened:(