Thoughts on the Robinson Curriculum?

[Guest stanleyfamily]

This is my first post, so please accept my apologies if I am using the forms improperly. I tried to find the answer I am seeking on past posts and could not find it. I think I am in the correct forum to ask this question. I hope.

 

We have 5 children, ranging from 3 to 12. All are homeschooled. However, we've never invested in a set curriculum. Now we would like to.

 

The cost of a curriculum for 5 children can be daunting in some cases. We're aware that there are free options, but most are too religion centric for our taste.

 

Some folks have suggested the Robinson curriculum, but I am a bit concerned. 22 CD's full of material, apparently most of which is recommended to be printed.

When it says it has things like a dictionary and encyclopedia I am at the same time interested and yet... "whatever". After all, we have perfectly good internet access to get to these types of resources.

Has anyone used it and if so could you please give me a better idea of what the material on the CD's really looks like? Frankly, the Robinson website and videos on the website look... dated... and I'm concerned that the material on the disks is the same.

 

Thank you in advance.

If you have any better suggestions on another curriculum, please feel free to offer it. $200 for Robinson that I can spread across 5 children (yes I know the math books are separate), is very doable for us, but the +$1000 a year per child type of courses are not. We would prefer a course that is more secular. How do I say this, religion courses are more than welcome, but not a curriculum that is religion based. Hard to express that properly without sounding narrow minded.

[Michael12]

Well, the books themselves are certainly "dated" - but that's kind of the idea. If you are looking for something new and shiny, I wouldn't think that this would fit the bill. The stress is on learning history by reading the original sources (in English translations).

 

Here's a site with much of the RC booklist linked to free web sources.

 

https://homeschoolfreestuff.wordpress.com/books-for-reading/robinson-booklist/

 

For the most part, the curriculum is not religion based, though a handful of the books are Protestant Christian (King James Bible, Young Folks Bible, Pilgrim's Progress, The Holy War, Institutes of Christian Religion, etc.). By no means is the science based on Creationism, if that's the concern.

 

There have been other threads on this here, so a search (or a site-limited Google search) might be helpful.

[skirch]

Hi Stanleyfamily, welcome to the forums.  :001_smile: 
Sometimes you have to be very specific in a search. It won't let me link my search, but if you do an advanced search (the little gear symbol by the tool bar) and search Robinson and choose Titles Only, you will get several past threads on the topic.

Hope that helps.

 

[HelenNotOfTroy]

I use Google to search the forums. Type your search terms followed by site:welltrainedmind.com

 

There are lots of options for materials that do not involve spending thousands of dollars to educate your children, including free options.

[ktgrok]

CLE (Christian Light Education) is inexpensive and their math and language arts are used by many non religious families. Add Story of the World and the Activity book for history for all the kids together?

[Spy Car]

The CDs are a money-making venture by Art Robinson to sell people old (and often culturally anachronistic) public domain books anyone can download for free. 

 

The man is a total wing-nut. The pedagogical methods he promotes are bunk. His racial views are contemptible. He believes exposure to radioactive waste is good for people, so nuclear waste from power plants should be mixed into concrete for housing and/or spread at sea. His "courses" include having High School student learn to survive thermo-nuclear war using duct-tape and aluminum foil. One could go on and on.

 

Run away from this guy. 

 

Bill

 

 

[kiana]

They're really dated and omit a huge amount of great modern literature. Don't waste your money on it. You can implement this just as well with library books yourself. Ambleside online has more books, better books (still a bit dated), and is free, but I would still add more modern books as well. AO is religiously based if you read their site, so you may have to pre-read (you can't just hand everything to your kids) but still a pretty good place to start.

 

Math: Consider MEP maths, which is a great program and free except for the printing. Math Mammoth is another very affordable alternative -- you can buy everything for under $200, covering grade 1 through pre-algebra, and it would be usable for all your kids. https://store.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=5KN_LIVE&page=Math_Mammoth_LightBlue_Series

[justasque]

This is my first post, so please accept my apologies if I am using the forms improperly. I tried to find the answer I am seeking on past posts and could not find it. I think I am in the correct forum to ask this question. I hope.

 

We have 5 children, ranging from 3 to 12. All are homeschooled. However, we've never invested in a set curriculum. Now we would like to.

 

The cost of a curriculum for 5 children can be daunting in some cases. We're aware that there are free options, but most are too religion centric for our taste.

 

Some folks have suggested the Robinson curriculum, but I am a bit concerned. 22 CD's full of material, apparently most of which is recommended to be printed.

 

When it says it has things like a dictionary and encyclopedia I am at the same time interested and yet... "whatever". After all, we have perfectly good internet access to get to these types of resources.

 

Has anyone used it and if so could you please give me a better idea of what the material on the CD's really looks like? Frankly, the Robinson website and videos on the website look... dated... and I'm concerned that the material on the disks is the same.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

If you have any better suggestions on another curriculum, please feel free to offer it. $200 for Robinson that I can spread across 5 children (yes I know the math books are separate), is very doable for us, but the +$1000 a year per child type of courses are not. We would prefer a course that is more secular. How do I say this, religion courses are more than welcome, but not a curriculum that is religion based. Hard to express that properly without sounding narrow minded.

 

Welcome.  It would help a bit to understand what approach you've used before, and what you are looking for in a purchased curriculum.  Do you need to streamline planning, thus a "school in a box" approach (like Oak Meadow)? Or would different sources/texts/programs for each subject be acceptable (Singapore math, Prentice Hall science, Sadlier-Oxford vocabulary, and so on)?  Do your kids have any strong interests, special abilities?  Any challenges or disabilities?  Do you prefer things that can be done as a family (such as having everyone doing the same time period in history or the same theme in science, each at their own level, so you can do related field trips and other activities together)?  Do you want "open and go" texts where the child reads something, answers questions, gets it grades (or self-grades), then moves on, or do you want something more discussion-based or hands-on?  Are you aiming for the kinds of education that prepared kids for a highly selective college program, or are you more middle-of-the-road, or do you want the bare bones basics?  Do you have a decent library nearby, or at least one with a generous loan period and a decent ILL option?

 

I haven't looked closely at Robinson, mainly because I think a good, solid, rich, challenging education includes ever so much more than reading out-of-print books.  Certainly if your children are avid readers, there is much to gain from exposure to a wide variety of books - fiction and non-fiction, classics and modern works, and so on.  A good librarian can be of help in  curating an ever-changing family-book-basket of choices.  But reading on its own does not a good education make; some subjects (math, science, phys ed) have a considerable skill component that can't be gained simply by reading, and certain other intangibles (leadership, study skills, community awareness, financial responsibility, communication skills, respect for others, and so on) need to be experienced and practiced in the context of activities other than reading.

[JoJosMom]

They're really dated and omit a huge amount of great modern literature. Don't waste your money on it. You can implement this just as well with library books yourself. Ambleside online has more books, better books (still a bit dated), and is free, but I would still add more modern books as well. AO is religiously based if you read their site, so you may have to pre-read (you can't just hand everything to your kids) but still a pretty good place to start.

 

Math: Consider MEP maths, which is a great program and free except for the printing. Math Mammoth is another very affordable alternative -- you can buy everything for under $200, covering grade 1 through pre-algebra, and it would be usable for all your kids. https://store.kagi.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?storeID=5KN_LIVE&page=Math_Mammoth_LightBlue_Series

 

Seconding the recommendation of Ambleside Online as possibly a good fit.

 

I have no experience with MEP (although I know others have used and loved it.)  We used and loved Math Mammoth for elementary school math, and I wholeheartedly recommend it.

 

Good luck to you, OP!

[Farrar]

Run far away from this curriculum. Everyone should.

 

If you're not a religious based homeschooler, I think the suggestion of Ambleside is also way off.

 

If money is your main obstacle, I second looking at some of the inexpensive suggestions above... MEP math is free, Math Mammoth is very inexpensive. Story of the World is very inexpensive. Doing Writing with Ease from the book instead of the workbooks is very inexpensive. There are a boatload of free grammar programs out there like KISS grammar. Mostly, I think a library curriculum is the best, cheap thing out there.

[MomatHWTK]

Here are some free resources, I'm sure there are others:

http://www.onlypassionatecuriosity.com/free-homeschool-list/

[Lang Syne Boardie]

There's also Khan Academy for math, art history, and some science; free MOOC courses for older kids (for example, find Professor Freeman's course on Revolutionary War era history, Yale, on youtube); Teaching Company lectures sometimes available through the library; college texts available used for pennies on amazon and at alibris...

 

homeschooling can still be done on the cheap. Search here for the free curriculum threads.

 

(Hint: in your search engine, type ----> site:welltrainedmind.com "free curriculum" or "free math" etc.)

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

There are plenty of decent options that won't break the bank.  And with 5 kids you can reuse stuff.  So you might invest in something more expensive once, but get 5 uses out of it. 

 

I somewhat like the idea behind the Robinson stuff, but one thing that gives me serious pause is the heavy reliance on stuff like the Henty books.  Everyone who isn't of a particular race, religion, etc is talked about as if being a lower form of human.  I can't imagine a steady diet of that being so great.  It's certainly not the attitude I want my kids to have.

 

 

[Spy Car]

MEP (Mathematics Enhancement Programme) and MM (Math Mammoth) are both highly-regarded math programs. MEP is free to download, MM is low cost. The type of each is quite distinct, so it would be wise to get the feel of each.

 

Here is the link to MEP:

 

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/

 

I must dissent from the recommendations for Ambleside Online. AO's lists are very similar to Robinson's. Their American History text, This Country of Ours, is loaded from stem to stern with the worst sorts of racist characterizations and bigotry. It is a horrendous choice. The history is neither accurate, nor is it fit for the shaping of young and impressionable minds. The same racist and bigoted anachronisms are evidenced in most AO book selections. It is hard not to conclude this is a deliberate reflection of the Ambleside Online board's worldview. 

 

Bill

 

 

[momma2three]

What specific subjects are you looking for?  Do you want formal curricula for everything, or just for english/math?

 

I'm only into 3rd grade, but so far really like the Writing With Ease/First Language Lessons series for grammar and writing.  They're not free, but they're PDFs that can be reused for multiple kids.  I use the Zaner-Bloser handwriting workbooks: they're about $12 each, but last the year, and I tried to save money by just printing out worksheets and writing out copy work and decided that it was worth paying the money for a professional product.  But I'm also sort of anal about handwriting :)

 

MEP is great, but teacher intensive... we kind of gave up halfway through year 2.  Math Mammoth costs a little (buy it through Homeschool Buyer's Coop for a deep discount), but is great and I can't recommend it enough.

 

Pandia Press's science programs are great... I wouldn't call them cheap, but you could definitely buy one a year and use them with all of your kids... the older ones you might supplement with extra reading and maybe writing, but I think they'd still like the experiments.

 

Story of the World is great for history, and not expensive.

 

ETA: If you're not adverse to textbooks, I love everything that Galore Park publishes.  Their "Junior" series starts in about 2nd grade.  The books aren't terribly expensive, and are non-consumable so can be used by different kids (though they're paperbacks, so don't stand up to a ton of wear and tear).

[ElizaG]

I think we'd need to know more about what the OP means by "dated."  

 

If he has a strong preference for recent books across the board, then any discussion of RC vs. Ambleside vs. other public domain texts is moot. 

 

OTOH, if it's more a question of the dictionary and encyclopedia, those can be substituted easily.    

 

And if he's open to vintage texts in general, but concerned about bias in the literature, I'm sure there are many people willing to give their two cents worth.  We haven't had one of those threads in a while.  ;)

 

But I wanted to point out that older reference books are very helpful -- sometimes even essential -- for the study of classic literature and history.  The dictionaries often include older meanings that have been dropped from current ones.  (Even 100 years ago, words like "suggestive" and "quantitative" tended to be used quite differently from the way we'd use them.)   And since the encyclopedia entries were written from the perspective of the time, they're more likely to help us understand the author's or character's point of view.  Of course, you don't need to buy them on CD, but it makes sense to keep electronic or print copies, so that the children can use them without unsupervised access to the Internet. 

[Spy Car]

I think we'd need to know more about what the OP means by "dated."  

 

If he has a strong preference for recent books across the board, then any discussion of RC vs. Ambleside vs. other public domain texts is moot. 

 

 

If the OP's definition of "dated" means he doesn't want to use materials that portray all non-white non-Christians as  brutal, ignorant, and murderous savages, then the use Robinson Curriculum and Ambleside Online has no place.

 

Both build their foundations upon books that are spectacularly racist. AO is as bad as RC in this regard.

 

Bill

[Soror]

I'd agree with PP, I don't agree with it on principal and even if you did I think it is a huge waste of money, mentioned you could do better with a kindle downloading free public domain books and the public library. Not being sure your preferences, other than cheap and wanting to make it easier for you.....

 

I'd break it down by subject, really you don't have to use an all-in-one curriculum:

math:

MEP

Math Mammoth-mastery

CLE- spiral but with a religious flavor

Miquon (only up to grade 3)- pretty cheap and Education Unboxed is a great free online supplement

Gattengo Math- up to Algebra- free online or purchased through Amazon but radically different than most math programs

Horizons math- Spiral- hint of religion in parts but not as overbearing as CLE

 

Mentioned above are all relatively cheap or free options; I'd just look and see what fits you. Personally I like Miquon and Gattengo for my current k'er and I like MEP but my dd1 just wasn't a fan(I never really tried it with my son although I think he would have liked it we went with RS which was a good fit but not cheap). My current 3rd grader is doing very well with Horizons math, which is very reasonably priced, especially looking for used options, on the plus side it is spiral, which MM is not, I can't remember enough about MEP to remember if it is or not. CLE is spiral as well.

 

Language Arts:

Peace Hill Press- Writing with Ease and Language Lessons; you can just buy student pages for both of these instead of buying all new books

Barefoot Ragmuffin Curricula- She has English Lessons through Literature which is a combo of writing and grammar- along with picture study

 

there are of course some options that are more like PS, if that is your preference, Galore Park mentioned above has I think every subject and is well-reviewed.

 

History:

Story of the World- most excellent and pretty cheap and easy to supplement with library books and movies from you-tube. If you buy the activity guide you have worksheets to go with it, along with suggested activities, library books, map work, comprehension questions, narration ideas and more. On the plus you can combine several kiddos at just let them work at their level.

 

All-in-one

Wayfarers- another Barefoot Ragmuffin curricula which has all subjects together and is for all grades

[....]

We have 5 children, ranging from 3 to 12. All are homeschooled. However, we've never invested in a set curriculum. Now we would like to.

 

 

Why do you want to buy a curriculum?  We put together our own stuff, too.  When I feel overwhelmed, I start looking into boxed curriculum.  We've been building our own curriculum for so long now, I know we won't be happy with a boxed curriculum!  When I get overwhelmed, I always stop and remind myself that...

 

Following The Well-trained Mind can be like a boxed curriculum... (maybe?)

 

If you're on a tight budget, there are a bunch of threads about homeschooling costs and ways people keep expenses down.  I spent less than 300 bucks (it was probably more like 200)  this year on my kids.  I don't always homeschool this way, but we're using a lot of used textbooks this year.  Our Lial's Algebra 1 text was 88 cents used...Holt Biology (used in high schools here) was about 5 bucks...I think our German textbook was also 5 bucks used...  We also use the library for everything history/literature-related.  Not sure what kind of library system you have, but our library has probably saved us thousands of dollars.

 

Not sure if that was helpful to you.  Good luck with your search!

[ElizaG]

This thread from 2013 went in a few different directions, but IMO there was some relatively interesting discussion:

 

Full curricula that use mostly public domain texts?

[Bluegoat]

It's a waste of money.

 

AO is of course religious, on the other hand, a lot of people use it as non-religious homeschoolers.  If you aren't wedded to it, it provides a nice outline to get you started - you can easily substitute texts you like better or happen to have on hand.   

 

But their suggestions for example for writing - copywork and dictation with an outline for grammar concepts to be covered with that - is very usable by anyone, as is their plan for art study, and their history progression.  They use A Child's History of the World as a history spine which I think is a better choice - and ultimately cheaper - as an elementary school history text. 

 

It's like the Robinson in that it is text based, and if you want you can find plenty of it free on the public domain.  But, you don't have to pay for it.

[FO4UR]

RC is a waste of money.  

 

 

The below is wise advise.

 

CLE (Christian Light Education) is inexpensive and their math and language arts are used by many non religious families. Add Story of the World and the Activity book for history for all the kids together?

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

CLE math includes questions like: We have two eyes, two ears, and [   ] God.

 

Not secular.

 

Worse yet, it is the poster-child for the sort of "traditional" math programs excoriated by Liping Ma in her seminal book on math education.

 

Bill

[MomatHWTK]

Christian Light Education isn't secular?  Stunning revelation.  

[JoJosMom]

Christian Light Education isn't secular?  Stunning revelation.  

 

 

:lol:

[Spy Car]

Yes, it is well named in every respect.

 

Bill

[abba12]

My mother in law used Robinson curriculum. Please don't. It's not just the books themselves (some of which are great, others are bad) but the teaching style and expectations (give a kid a book and have him tell you when he's all done, essentially...) 

 

Many of the books are available for free. Use it as a list of resources. But as a whole curriculum and teaching method I would never recommend it. 

 

There's plenty of low-cost and free curriculua, and you can write your own. Want to spend a year studying biology? There's a million and one things to read on the internet and in the library. 

[ktgrok]

CLE math includes questions like: We have two eyes, two ears, and [   ] God.

 

Not secular.

 

Worse yet, it is the poster-child for the sort of "traditional" math programs excoriated by Liping Ma in her seminal book on math education.

 

Bill

 

I didn't say it was secular. I'm pretty sure the name, CHRISTIAN Light Education gives that away. I said it was used by many secular families. And it is. It's not like a kid is going to catch cuties from a random word problem. I can think of maybe 5 religious questions out of a few years of using it. 

 

As for it being traditional math, yup. And I love it. I'm using the 1st grade book right now and have used as high as pre-Algebra with my oldest. Both are doing just fine in math, and have good mathematical understanding. In the "problems and mathematical reasoning" sections of standardized tests my oldest tended to get perfect scores. The kindergartener using the 1st grade level has a great understanding of place value already, just from the work we've done, and can apply the idea of base ten systems to pennies and dimes as well as when doing her math work. 

 

It's not Miquon, but if you are looking for independent and inexpensive it is just fine. 

 

I know "traditional" is not your ideal, but we had some amazing thinkers who put a man on the moon who learned traditional math. I think if it was good enough for that it is good enough for a lot of kids. 

[Sahamamama]

He explains it himself here:

 

[TKDmom]

Here's a thread with free curriculum ideas:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/109114-free-curriculum-list/

If you click on the tags at the top of that thread, it will take you to other, similar threads. Although that one should keep you busy for a while.

 

Welcome to the forums!

[FO4UR]

CLE math includes questions like: We have two eyes, two ears, and [   ] God.

 

Not secular.

 

Worse yet, it is the poster-child for the sort of "traditional" math programs excoriated by Liping Ma in her seminal book on math education.

 

Bill

 

 

Bill, you have one child.  The OP has several.  That makes a huge difference in what math to pick.  You know I am a conceptual-math teacher, and I will still recommend CLE for math (not for the other subjects).  I recommend for large families b/c it's a solid program with plenty of spiral review and it's format makes independence easy for kids who are ready for that independence...which means that Mom & Dad can use their precious time efficiently on the children & concepts that need teacher time.

 

MEP math x 5 kids = only math gets done...no reading...no writing...etc...and I LOVE MEP! 

 

It's more practical to start with a solid backbone (CLE) and supplement as needed with Miquon/Gattegno/Khan Academy.  Parents of many children have to Triage.

[TKDmom]

 

MEP math x 5 kids = only math gets done...no reading...no writing...etc...and I LOVE MEP! 

 

:iagree: I love MEP too, but I've only done it with 1 kid at time. And only in the middle years. The elementary lessons are very thorough and Intense and I don't have the time luxury to use it for everyone. I used MEP 4 to remediate a 6th grader and then moved her to MEP 7, which allowed a lot more independence. Then she got all worried about not following the American math sequence so I moved her to a more traditional program. My current 7th grader is now using MEP, with some Jousting Armadillos for fun (JA is not cheap...) If you're into doing math on an iPad (which ds12 is not) you can get a free app called Mastering Mathematics for the upper levels of MEP, and it can be used quite independently.

 

For elementary years, my default program is Singapore Math, but the Singapore method seems very natural to me (and Saxon Math makes my skin crawl). For a parent who understands math, but is baffled by the Singapore method, they can either spend a lot of time with the Home Instructor's guides or use a more "traditional" math. The best curriculum is the one that gets used...

[FO4UR]

:iagree: I love MEP too, but I've only done it with 1 kid at time. And only in the middle years. The elementary lessons are very thorough and Intense and I don't have the time luxury to use it for everyone. I used MEP 4 to remediate a 6th grader and then moved her to MEP 7, which allowed a lot more independence. Then she got all worried about not following the American math sequence so I moved her to a more traditional program. My current 7th grader is now using MEP, with some Jousting Armadillos for fun (JA is not cheap...) If you're into doing math on an iPad (which ds12 is not) you can get a free app called Mastering Mathematics for the upper levels of MEP, and it can be used quite independently.

 

For elementary years, my default program is Singapore Math, but the Singapore method seems very natural to me (and Saxon Math makes my skin crawl). For a parent who understands math, but is baffled by the Singapore method, they can either spend a lot of time with the Home Instructor's guides or use a more "traditional" math. The best curriculum is the one that gets used...

 

 

I'm going to have to check out Mastering Mathematics.  Sounds promising!

[athomeontheprairie]

I've never looked at rc or ao, but I'm really surprised to read some of these reviews. I know people who use them, or portions of them. They've never mentioned these issues

[FO4UR]

I've never looked at rc or ao, but I'm really surprised to read some of these reviews. I know people who use them, or portions of them. They've never mentioned these issues

 

 

There are several old threads discussing the merits of old public domain books, which is what RC is made of.  AO uses many of them as well.

 

I'm fairly sensitive to bigotry and hatred, but I do use many of the "blacklisted" books...for the same reasons I use mythology and fairy tales and teach about Hitler.  I teach my children to THINK and DISCERN.  You cannot teach those skills if you only give a sanitized view of the world.  Ex.  My kids know that when they see a word like "savage" that that is a red flag, telling us about the author's bias.  They can then read the passage with a critical eye.  The author says _______, but is that true?  (The awesome thing is that they pick up on these same sorts of things in real life.  A little friend called a child ______, but is it true?)

 

jmpov

[Spy Car]

With many of the AO selections I'm thinking one could spend the vast majority of time talking about the author's obvious racism and bigotry.

When the author calls them niggers, is that OK?

When he call them savages who have the minds of children, is he showing a bias?

When she says that American Indians are unfaithful drunks fueled with blood-lust, what about that?

Mormons all horse thieves? Muslims all murderous? Chinese all crafy?

Where the hell does it end?

Bill

[Hunter]

AO, I can't figure out; I don't try. They represent a certain branch of Christianity that I don't understand, and the curriculum choices reflect that culture I don't understand.

 

I have existed at the edges of so many cultures. I am tired. I don't try to understand or join anymore. I just accept them for what they are and remain "other".

 

Robinson, I actually understand a bit. Even when I don't agree. Even the nuclear stuff. I spent a good chunk of my life existing at the edges of a culture similar to Robinson. Including the nuclear.

 

Times have changed. Especially technology. We need a revised Robinson. It won't be for everyone. It might even be " wrong" in general; I wouldn't know as I no longer believe in the concepts of right and wrong.

 

Robinson no longer delivers what it promises, if it ever did. But...people look at it for a reason. And nothing else has even been put on the market to deliver what Robinson promises. Especially the self-teaching part.

[Hunter]

Robinson has an ungraded reading list with books listed in order of reading difficulty, rather than being awkwardly forced into a chronological history rotation. This is something I really want to explore this winter.

 

With my total severance from right and wrong and my disbelief that we can find cause and effect within all the conflicting accounts of hiSTORY, I have been freed to look more closely at reading difficulty levels and students being able to handle a book on their own without me holding their hand.

[Hunter]

I found this book last night while doing some research.

 

Five Hundred Books for the Young

https://books.google.com/books?id=NgppAAAAIAAJ&source=gbs_similarbooks

 

What is interesting about this list is that the books are listed by the reader the student is using. This list equates with the REVISED McGuffey, not the older Mott Media set.

 

This list is from 1892, so doesn't cover 3 more decades of public domain books, or all the non public domain books after that, but I find the division of books by school reader helpful and interesting.

[FO4UR]

With many of the AO selections I thinking one could spend the vast majority of time talking about the author's obvious racism and bigotry.

 

When the author calls them niggers, is that OK?

 

When he call them savages who have the minds of children, is he showing a bias?

 

When she says that American Indians are unfaithful drunks fueled with blood-lust, what about that?

 

Mormons all horse thieves? Muslims all murderous? Chinese all crafy?

 

Where the hell does it end?

 

Bill

 

Of course, those things are deplorable!

 

Don't we see similar in today's culture?  What's the difference between calling someone a savage and calling someone a Redneck or Right-Wing Radical or Dirty Liberal or Pig or AO Advisory (LOL)?

 

Isn't it much better to have these tough conversations at home, in the context of a book written long ago, rather than at the park (or store or school) in the context of a real-life child spewing the hate right then and there?

 

My point is that we swim in the exact same water. The names have changed, but the hatred is the same.  You aren't eradicating the hatred by blinding yourself and your child...you are perpetuating it, actually.  Throw it out into the open, and shine a light upon it.  Then you will see it in our modern context also.  Then we might raise a generation that actually does eradicate the hatred!

 

 

I think this post will fall on deaf ears, sadly...b/c this is the water we swim in.  Admitting that I use those old books pegs me into a category...probably complete with a dirty name.  Oh well, those dirty names describe the author's bias, not mine.

[Michael12]

I've been perusing a 1939 "500 Books for Children" (http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED542492.pdf), and it's striking how different that list is from the Hardy one, less than 50 years later.

[Hunter]

I've been perusing a 1939 "500 Books for Children" (http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED542492.pdf), and it's striking how different that list is from the Hardy one, less than 50 years later.

Thank You!!!!!!

[ElizaG]

This book was published right in between those two, and goes a long way toward explaining the differences in emphasis:

 

The Children's Library:  A Dynamic Factor in Education (1917)

 

To put it briefly, the older idea was that libraries should promote literary culture.   The pragmatists, led by Dewey, had a different goal:  to get ordinary workers to use the library to solve work-related problems.  To train children in this direction, they wanted them to get used to reading books to solve problems relating to their hobbies, which were seen as a sort of practice for adult work.

 

So all those progressive references to the child "following his own interests" have to be read in this context.  

 

And to think, I used to imagine that it "just happened" that there were hordes of authors and publishers in mid-century who just somehow, spontaneously, out of the goodness of their hearts, wanted to help grade schoolers learn how to keep fish tanks and do papier-mache crafts!  ;)

 

Everyone who puts together a book list has an agenda, whether conscious or unconscious.  Often, several agendas at once.  We have to be discerning.  If we toss out all the lists except the "pure" ones, we'll be left with nothing. 

[Hunter]

Eliza, thanks for the link! I can't really read that unless I get to a hotspot, but it looks good.

 

Yes, curriculum writers have agendas. And if they don't realize they have an agenda and what their agenda is, they are just the blind leading the blind.

 

Books are written by humans and humans are a pretty nasty species that I no longer am certain has the right to exist. But I'm a human teaching humans and at least for now have decided not to remove myself from the earth.

 

So I wade through the nasty stuff written by nasty people that is still available to me after the great roach infestation.

 

I had to take some time off teaching. I was just so overwhelmed in general and with some worldview changes.

 

It makes no sense, not even fully to me, but a Halloween costume and a set of fake pearls kinda sorted some things out in my head. :lol:

 

I feel like I have a direction to head in now. I have some things to research and save up for. I have some work to do that I think is worth doing.

[Michael12]

Excellent - another great source. I was initially thinking more about the picture books. Authors like Lenski and Bemelmans and Seuss weren't around until the 1930s, and I daresay the evolution of printing processes constrained what was possible in two and four colors. This greatly enhanced the chances for literary culture to be pushed.

 

Totally agree that things don't just happen out of the blue. Another hidden factor with children's books was the much later (1965) Elementary and Secondary Education Act that the U.S. government passed. Schools had piles of money to spend on their libraries, and publishers struggled to keep up with the demand. There are a lot of wonderful, innovative, late-1960s books out there which might never have existed.

 

Unfortunately, much of today's library world has no sense of history (or even of quality) and has weeded all the great stuff to make room for things that are thought to be good simply because they are new.

[Hunter]

Just adding a link to chronological snobbery in case anyone has missed hearing that term.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronological_snobbery

[Spy Car]

Of course, those things are deplorable!

 

Don't we see similar in today's culture?  What's the difference between calling someone a savage and calling someone a Redneck or Right-Wing Radical or Dirty Liberal or Pig or AO Advisory (LOL)?

 

Isn't it much better to have these tough conversations at home, in the context of a book written long ago, rather than at the park (or store or school) in the context of a real-life child spewing the hate right then and there?

 

My point is that we swim in the exact same water. The names have changed, but the hatred is the same.  You aren't eradicating the hatred by blinding yourself and your child...you are perpetuating it, actually.  Throw it out into the open, and shine a light upon it.  Then you will see it in our modern context also.  Then we might raise a generation that actually does eradicate the hatred!

 

 

I think this post will fall on deaf ears, sadly...b/c this is the water we swim in.  Admitting that I use those old books pegs me into a category...probably complete with a dirty name.  Oh well, those dirty names describe the author's bias, not mine.

 

Paula, we life in Los Angeles. My child is not blind to racism and lives in a real and highly diverse world. Reading racist clap-trap is not a good way to feed his young mind. 

 

AO is not shining light on bigotry, it is extending it to further generations by design.

 

Bill

[Farrar]

Of course, those things are deplorable!

 

Don't we see similar in today's culture?  What's the difference between calling someone a savage and calling someone a Redneck or Right-Wing Radical or Dirty Liberal or Pig or AO Advisory (LOL)?

 

Isn't it much better to have these tough conversations at home, in the context of a book written long ago, rather than at the park (or store or school) in the context of a real-life child spewing the hate right then and there?

 

My point is that we swim in the exact same water. The names have changed, but the hatred is the same.  You aren't eradicating the hatred by blinding yourself and your child...you are perpetuating it, actually.  Throw it out into the open, and shine a light upon it.  Then you will see it in our modern context also.  Then we might raise a generation that actually does eradicate the hatred!

 

 

I think this post will fall on deaf ears, sadly...b/c this is the water we swim in.  Admitting that I use those old books pegs me into a category...probably complete with a dirty name.  Oh well, those dirty names describe the author's bias, not mine.

 

First of all, while I dislike stereotyping and name calling, calling someone a liberal pig or a right-wing radical is name calling based on political ideologies. Ideologies are chosen and while those aren't "nice" terms, they're not downright offensive to me. Some right-wingers are proud to be right wing, some liberals are proud to be "bleeding hearts." I don't find that anywhere near as offensive as some of the racism or sexism in these old books. And I find the comparison almost apples and oranges, honestly. Racism can include name calling, of course, but the names are indicative of much deeper set attitudes and problems.

 

Second, I don't think teaching about racism in the context of old books actually is all that useful. So, no, I don't want my kids to learn about racism reading old books. Learning about it on the corner from that child spewing hate is more useful. Racism in older books tends to be pretty blatant, which conveys the message that racism is blatant and easy to identify. Not always true today. Understanding racism and sexism today requires a very different approach, IMO.

 

Finally, It's also just incredibly complex to try and explain to a young child how to read all the various levels of racism in some older books. Some use terms that we don't consider acceptable today but espouse attitudes that were at the time very progressive, others use words that are less offensive but have attitudes that are worse... there's a lot of layers to understanding how to talk about, say, a person who is progressive for their time and yet is racist by today's standards. And it's a trial to pick out all that racism from books about other cultures that are deeply misrepresented.

 

A few older books with racist attitudes are totally worth the time to sit and explain these things because they're of such literary quality that it's worth it. However, typically those are books like the Little House books, where, while racism is deeply embedded in some ways, it's not the constant focus or message of the stories. It's worth reading them and then also reading books like The Birchbark House to balance that. However, the vast majority of the books that are discussed on threads like these - the vast majority of the books on the RC and the problematic AO books - are not in that category. They're just not. If someone came here with a - which books *are* worth the effort, then I think that's a worthy question. But to use this stuff wholesale and claim that you can just talk it through would mean that either it's not really being talked through, or some of these families have the most versant 8 year olds in nineteenth century racism on the planet because it's basically the entire focus of their whole homeschool.

[Michael12]

Are the "vast majority of the books on the RC" really racist? The G. A. Henty books are often mentioned (and is it really all of them or just some?) - but vast majority? Are the math and science and economics and law books all racist? Is it all the literature and all the history? Is this a case of "guilt by association"?

[Hunter]

Are the "vast majority of the books on the RC" really racist? The G. A. Henty books are often mentioned (and is it really all of them or just some?) - but vast majority? Are the math and science and economics and law books all racist? Is it all the literature and all the history? Is this a case of "guilt by association"?

I'm going through the Rainbow Curriculum right now trying to pick out which books are blatantly racist and which books are subtly racist.

 

I'm not looking for sexism, because sexism is just as prevalent in modern books.

 

Every book is in the public domain. I'm still reading through this list, even the books I read as a child, because racism didn't jump out and smack me in the face like it does, now, so I don't trust my memory. I don't see this as a racist list.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9Fvf4FXKZtoZ1UtTXpZMlJ0SFE/view?usp=docslist_api

 

Do others see this as a racist list? I'm curious. I don't want to debate. I'm just curious if this is viewed as a racist list of books. And which ones are the worst offenders.