Full Curricula That Use Mostly Public Domain Texts

[Hunter]

What are the full curricula that use mostly pubic domain texts? 

 

Ambleside Online

 

Robinson Curriculum

 

Old Fashioned Education

 

I wish there was a full curriculum that used all eBooks, and that when a non-public domain book was used, that it was an affordable eBook available internationally. But that said, what do we actually have now, for guidance in piecing together an almost free eBook education that is available internationally?

 

 

[Spy Car]

Stripe originally posted about the Indian National textbooks being available online.

 

Unlike the woefully bad selections in AO and Robinson Curiculm that are filled with highly inaccurate and racist books out the dark past that should be an embarrassment to use or recommend, the Indian books are quite good (from what I've seen) and can be used for personal uses for free.

 

Last I looked they can be found searching for "NCERT" at the official site, or at the NoteMonk site.

 

The outstanding MEP math program is also free to use.

 

The moldy old anachronistic books with their bad science, inaccurate history, and racist attitudes are books that are better left behind. "Free" isn't much good if you are filling children's heads with misinformation and bigotry.

 

Bill

 

ETA: Potential users of NCERT books should check to see if the digital versions are "watermarked" or not. The early versions at the official NCERT site were not. Neither were the NoteMonk copies. Then the official site started "watermarking." There is "watermarking" which can't bee seen with the naked eys, and (on the other extreme) is highly obtrusive watermarking. The "official" versions I saw last were of the "obtrusive" type, so I would avoid those if possible. The last I downloaded from NoteMonk the copies were not watermarked (but it has been awhile).

[Farrar]

There's also CK-12 - the open source high school and college textbooks site.  And I understand there are other such sites.

 

I get that those and the NCERT books and so forth are all "just" textbooks - they don't have a full curriculum attached in most cases (MEP does have lesson plans though).  But I'm guessing there are at least some curricula built around them.  And in some cases, it's less necessary than others.  I know you're a fan of having good, free resources that are more like checklists of information than curricula sometimes, Hunter.

[roanna]

Thanks Hunter starting this, I have seen conversations like this before but now that we actually need a free curriculum I am paying more attention.

I went to NCERT and there was quite a bit of lag on their site.  Then it just said no page found on one I clicked for math.  Not sure that would be very reliable.  

 

I wouldn't want to start a wild conversation, but me and my husband are cultural people, both speak Arabic and other languages and have friends from all around and while I was reading D'aulaire to my son and there were pictures of slaves I thought it was an excellent opportunity to explain slavery and how people thought about others during that time.  I let my son watch shows that involve evolution being taught even though we do not hold to that and I explain to him why we do not believe that.  I know many people just don't want to deal with it but I find these excellent opportunities to talk about things instead of going around it or getting upset at what used to be acceptable.  Of course he is 7 so I have to know what he could handle for his age.  But I know him.  ( I just realized this conversation was from the other Ambleside thread) 

 

Gosh I hope this doesn't start someone throwing tomatoes at me.  

[Spy Car]

Thanks Hunter starting this, I have seen conversations like this before but now that we actually need a free curriculum I am paying more attention.

I went to NCERT and there was quite a bit of lag on their site. Then it just said no page found on one I clicked for math. Not sure that would be very reliable.

Try NoteMonk. There is a very broad range of textbooks in the older grades, in addition to math and English in the lower grades.

 

Bill

[Lori D.]

I know this is a little a-field of what you specifically requested (full curricula, all grade levels, using mostly public domain texts), BUT, in case it is of any help, I can contribute a list I compiled for my homeschool group of free resources for HIGH SCHOOL, which are on websites available to all:

 

 

 

OPEN SOURCE CLASSES (college and/or high school lecture series)

Online Education Database (OEDb.com) (college)

Academic Earth

iTunes U

UC College Prep (high school)

National Repository of Online Courses (high school /college)

 

TEXTS

Hippo Campus

Free High School Science Texts

Hoagies' Gifted Education list

PASS (Parallel Alternative Strategies for Students)

 

BOOKS

Gutenberg Project (view public domain books online for free)

Book Boon (download free books)

LibriVox (download free audio books)

 

VISUALS (Tutorials, Videos, Podcasts, Documentaries)

Khan Academy

Bright Storm

Learners TV

Annenberg Learner

The Top Documentary Films Website

YouTup Top 100 List (also do searches for specific instructors, subjects, tutorials)

Creative Live (free live streaming classes on visual arts topics)

 

INTERACTIVE ONLINE CLASS

Coursea (college; options to just watch, or turn in assignments and receive "peer grades")

 

TEST PRACTICE

Test Prep Review (all tests)

Online Math Learning (SAT, ACT, GMAT)

 

SPECIFIC SUBJECT RESOURCES:

 

English

Writing/Grammar

 

Literature Guides

Sparknotes

Cliff's Notes

Glencoe Literature Library

Penguin

Pink Monkey

Schmoop

 

Math

Online Math Learning

Derek Owens Math

Khan Academy

 

Science

Bozeman Biology

Derek Owens Physics

GPB Education (Chemistry,Physics)

Khan Academy

[momma2three]

There is a Social Group here about free curriculum options.  I'm a member but I haven't checked it out lately, but there were some really nice looking ones, particularly for the Sciences.

[momma2three]

Here's the Social Group.  Each thread is supposed to be a different subject area.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/groups/119-free-curriculum-for-the-price-of-printing/

[Melissa B]

Maybe Easy Peasy? 

[Ewe Mama]

I signed up for Gateway to the Classics, by the Yesterday's Classics crew, and have enjoyed using it for reading aloud to the children. It doesn't include math, but literature, history, geography, science, and some other topics are available. You can use their lesson plans or make your own. It is not free, but they do have periodic sales. It think it is regularly $99 for a year, but I joined for half off.

 

I have been using some of the books with SCM history modules and they go well together.

[Hunter]

I have a subscription to Gateway. It looks like they have started a full curriculum, but then stopped developing it? At least for this year, the 1/2 price subscription has been worth the 2 new ebooks each week, that are often books on the AO lists.

 

Easy Peasy links to individual free lessons that are constantly evolving, rather than full public domain texts at links that are long lasting.

 

The Indian texts are not public domain and often inappropriate for Western education.

 

There is a cacophony of FREE FREE FREE resources, but so far it doesn't look like anyone has published a FULL curriculum whose FIRST priority is to use public domain and eBook texts.

 

I went back to using NtK for now, but I have not given up on the idea of a COMPLETE curriculum using almost nothing but what can be stored on my iPad and Android phone.

 

More and more publishers are publishing eBooks. I think in a few years there will be more options.

 

The first person to publish an affordable eBook curriculum that uses mostly public domain texts and a few affordable pdfs, is going to make some money.

 

I just want to click on grade 1 and have it be a decent plan. Not perfect, but decent. Then skim ahead and see that is continues to be organized and efficient and complete for each grade.

[momma2three]

The problem is that it takes time and money to develop a very good, professional-level curriculum.  The free ones that exist are either out-of-date textbooks that have fallen into the public domain, or subject-specific texts funded by grants or industry organizations.  These grants are almost always very specific ("to improve science education in grades 3-5 in resource-poor schools in South Africa"), and the industry organizations are pretty much all in the sciences (and probably have some very real bias issues).  The grants are a mixed bag in terms of bias, but it's easier to avoid things like "Coal: America's Green Energy Source (a science curriculum published by the Coal Producers of America)" or whatever.

 

So I'm not sure I'd bet on there being a comprehensive, free curriculum using entirely public domain texts, unless somebody wants to sponsor that AND the high-quality public domain texts.  And I'm not sure who would?  I also would not rely on any literature curriculum that didn't use any books written in the past 70 years.

[Hunter]

This is how I would like to see literature handled. All TEACHING about literature would be done using the free texts, and then there would be a supplementary reading list of more modern books available in Kindle form and widely available at most libraries. Skipping or substituting these books would not interfere with the LESSONS.

 

For science, public domain texts would be used with teacher notes about modern changes, and a supplementary list of modern topics that must covered, always with a link to a Kindle suggestion, and also an alternative of something widely available in libraries. Or something written by the author of the full curriculum.

 

The full curriculum wouldn't need to be free. Just affordable and in eBook format. If it was REALLY good enough, many people would pay $100.00 a grade for it. The point is that all RESOURCES used in the curriculum would be free and easy to aqcuire, and the entire education could be stored on a one pound device.

[Hunter]

There are some great old math texts. They just need a study guide that includes problems to be skipped, a few additional modern problems, and an answer key.

 

The Ayres spelling list and all it's free tests could be used with just a short supplementary list of commonly misspelled modern words.

 

Grammar texts could be used with a short supplement for modern punctuation and envelope addressing, and an answer key.

[MamaSprout]

Not on the kindle, but I have a set of these: http://www.amazon.com/Houghton-Mifflin-Reading-Literature-Experience/dp/0395610834

 

The series is 1st- 8th. They are pre NCLB, and are basically decent anthologies of children's lit. I would consider them a modern add-on if you were using out-of-copyright texts. I buy them for between .25-$4. I'm using the 8th Grade book "World's Apart" with a tutoring student along with WTM-style writing currently, and am satisfied with it.

 

I also put this together:

http://beansblues.wordpress.com/tag/homeschool/

 

http://beansblues.wordpress.com/

 

It does not use all public domain books, but does use some, with many others commonly available at most libraries. The "codes" are explained at the bottom of the .pdf. For us, most of the books on the list were less expensive at book sales/ library than on kindle, but likely could be digitally "checked out" of a library or gotten with Amazon Prime. Otherwise, any of the Yesterday's Classics could be subbed for history or lit titles. I choose STOW b/c it is available as an ebook, and I've seen paperback copies for around $1-5 at book sales.

 

We use Singapore, but MEP could be used. We did end up using Galore Park for science, but the student books run less than $20/ year and can be used stand-alone. We dropped French and added Latin. ETA: Also, Sunshine Math would be a good option if combined with living math/ older math books:

http://www.sabalpalm.leon.k12.fl.us/baumgartenn/Sunshine%20Math/Forms/AllItems.aspx

 

ETA: Thunderbolt Kids 4-6 free science: http://www.thunderboltkids.co.za/

 

I probably ought to update my schedule if I'm going to list it here. I'll do that and put another link in below the first one sometime soon. We've switched out more of the AO stuff after standardized tests last spring highlighted some weaknesses, and I also picked up a family for cottage classes.

[Farrar]

I like the idea of doing this.  I think open source textbooks, like the CK-12 that I mentioned above, are going to be the future of textbooks, at least at the secondary level.

 

But...  I also think authors are creators and workers who deserve to be paid for their work.  And that you often get what you pay for.  There's a reason that Robinson and Ambleside aren't great curricula - aside even from the views of their respective founders, the texts they have to work with are woefully deficient in some ways.

 

And I also think that at the primary level, we're better off with living books (outside of math) anyway.  And while some may be free, there's not a structure to make those free like there might one day be with quality textbooks.  And waiting for copyrights to expire isn't really a great method of getting the best books.

[Hunter]

I found an interesting curriculum today, called "Public School Methods" by Charles Alexander McMurry. There are 6 volumes and a Teacher Guide/Index. There is an older 1912 version and newer revised 1916 and 1921 versions.

Here are the links to the 1921 version at Google.

Volume 1
http://books.google.com/books?id=3Uyab_fYEtoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Volume 2
http://books.google.com/books?id=M2tbJqTAKN0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:iWtt9JSiG4cC&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0IF5UvekA-yhsASeyICQDg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Volume 3. 1916 version. I can't find a 1921.
http://books.google.com/books?id=W_0AAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:iWtt9JSiG4cC&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FIN5UpORKO3NsQSM64HwBw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Volume 4. I can't find a good copy at Google, but this Archive one looks good.

https://archive.org/details/publicschoolmeth04chic

 

https://ia700204.us.archive.org/1/items/publicschoolmeth04chic/publicschoolmeth04chic_bw.pdf

 

Volume 5
http://books.google.com/books?id=11ueMN0XF7sC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Volume 6
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z9RSrTTfzVQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:iWtt9JSiG4cC&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0IF5UvekA-yhsASeyICQDg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Teacher Guide/Index
http://books.google.com/books?id=CYoYUOy6KGoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

The books at Archive.org. Look for the ones that say "uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb."
https://archive.org/search.php?query=Public%20School%20Methods

[Hunter]

I also put this together:

http://beansblues.wordpress.com/tag/homeschool/

 

http://beansblues.wordpress.com/

 

It does not use all public domain books, but does use some, with many others commonly available at most libraries. The "codes" are explained at the bottom of the .pdf. For us, most of the books on the list were less expensive at book sales/ library than on kindle, but likely could be digitally "checked out" of a library or gotten with Amazon Prime. Otherwise, any of the Yesterday's Classics could be subbed for history or lit titles. I choose STOW b/c it is available as an ebook, and I've seen paperback copies for around $1-5 at book sales.

 

 

Interesting links and lists. Thanks!

[Hunter]

But... I also think authors are creators and workers who deserve to be paid for their work. And that you often get what you pay for. There's a reason that Robinson and Ambleside aren't great curricula - aside even from the views of their respective founders, the texts they have to work with are woefully deficient in some ways.

 

There are always going to be those that hunt through the vintage books and choose to use them. It would be nice if someone organized the best of the mediocre and the occasional gem into something of a "good enough" plan, that people can continue to tweak and refine.

[Hunter]

double post

[Tarreymere]

You know, I would imagine that if something like Hunter is interested could be created it would likely be created by people like those we have here responding to the OP. HInt hint.....

 

Either that or we'd end up arguing about it forever. 

 

Anyway, I'm personally working on a website to organize free resources beyond just listing a slew of links. It is far from complete and of course my priority is homeschooling my kids so the project is moving slowly. I'm also not exactly even remotely qualified to do something like this. I just thought it would be a good idea and it is something I wished someone else had done so that I could use it. I don't find lists of links or links to single page worksheets to be especially helpful. I do like the Old Fashioned Education website, but I wanted something more comprehensive.

 

My idea is to collect the links to as many decent free resources as possible (ongoing) and to offer some kind of review or critique of each one. The logical next step is to develop some kind of plan of education using selected free resources. My own sense of fairness suggests to me that such a plan  or plans should be offered for free, given that the material used to create the plan is free. I do have ads from adsense on the website, in hopes that just maybe once it is complete I'll make enough to cover expenses like the domain name. I also have an Amazon affiliate store and some links to that in case anyone is overcome by a mad desire to buy a kindle while looking over the site.

 

There is a contact form on the website if anyone would care to offer to assist or add content. Hint, hint. Please be gentle, since I already admitted I don't know what I"m doing and I don't have much free time to do it.

 

www.thestingyhomeschooler.com   

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I am having a hard time understanding what you are looking for exactly. 

 

If there are free vintage math texts available, then I think a teaching guide telling what problems to omit or add would be unnecessary- it would fall into "teacher's discretion".  It would be like making a TG for math mammoth and telling the teachers to skip the odd numbered questions.  Teachers can decide that for themselves.

 

Same with finding good, free, vintage texts.  One person's opportunity for discussion is another person's bigoted book to be burned.  There is no objective definition of a "good book" for grade X.  Even within my own family, I have personality differences that would make book selection different by over a full grade level from one child to the next. 

 

There are many, many, many websites with free curriculum.  All of them should be tweaked to individual families.  I don't really see a lack of free material, or even well-designed curricula using mostly free material.  So I'm confused by the question and what it is that is not satisfying about what already exists.

[roanna]

There are always going to be those that hunt through the vintage books and choose to use them. It would be nice if someone organized the best of the mediocre and the occasional gem into something of a "good enough" plan, that people can continue to tweak and refine.

It's funny you say this because I didn't think of it until now...I don't mind at all using old books and when I was in college it was a hobby of me and my friends to go to a used bookstore to look for the oldest book to collect.  I found some wonderful old theology books, a 1920 Girl Scout Handbook, hymnals 100 years old.  I thought I struck gold :)  So I guess I'm just weird like that.  

 

While people were commenting "I think there's something wrong with a curriculum that uses old books" I am saying to myself , Why?  I seriously couldn't figure it out.  :)   Of course we raid the library for all the good and fun current picture books too.

[Hunter]

I am having a hard time understanding what you are looking for exactly.

 

If there are free vintage math texts available, then I think a teaching guide telling what problems to omit or add would be unnecessary- it would fall into "teacher's discretion". It would be like making a TG for math mammoth and telling the teachers to skip the odd numbered questions. Teachers can decide that for themselves.

 

Same with finding good, free, vintage texts. One person's opportunity for discussion is another person's bigoted book to be burned. There is no objective definition of a "good book" for grade X. Even within my own family, I have personality differences that would make book selection different by over a full grade level from one child to the next.

 

There are many, many, many websites with free curriculum. All of them should be tweaked to individual families. I don't really see a lack of free material, or even well-designed curricula using mostly free material. So I'm confused by the question and what it is that is not satisfying about what already exists.

Of course a teacher CAN decide what to assign for themselves. But people pay a lot of money for year after year of weekly schedules using "open and go" resources/plans that students complete. With older resources there is even more of a need for a guide, as there are things that are not just superfluous, but worse yet, are outdated and inappropriate. And there often are no answer keys, as teachers were expected to know the material so well that they didn't need one.

 

Most people that use Math Mammoth do complete it start to finish. There are many math texts vintage and modern that are not meant to be completed. They are meant to be used as resources. When those books are used by correspondence courses, they come with a guide of lesson plans. Then the parent is usually also given a full answer key so they can also assign more problems if the student needs them.

 

Not everyone wants a full curriculum with schedules and lesson plans. But just because a person wants to use mostly public domain books, doesn't mean they don't also crave the opportunity to use a full curriculum.

[MamaSprout]

Memoria Press somewhat does what I think you are suggesting, but has reprinted the books rather than using ebooks.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Of course a teacher CAN decide what to assign for themselves. But people pay a lot of money for year after year of weekly schedules using "open and go" resources/plans that students complete. With older resources there is even more of a need for a guide, as there are things that are not just superfluous, but worse yet, are outdated and inappropriate. And there often are no answer keys, as teachers were expected to know the material so well that they didn't need one.

 

Most people that use Math Mammoth do complete it start to finish. There are many math texts vintage and modern that are not meant to be completed. They are meant to be used as resources. When those books are used by correspondence courses, they come with a guide of lesson plans. Then the parent is usually also given a full answer key so they can also assign more problems if the student needs them.

 

Not everyone wants a full curriculum with schedules and lesson plans. But just because a person wants to use mostly public domain books, doesn't mean they don't also crave the opportunity to use a full curriculum.

 

Ok, this is making more sense to me.  You want something like TOG or Sonlight, but entirely from free resources? 

[Hunter]

Ok, this is making more sense to me.  You want something like TOG or Sonlight, but entirely from free resources? 

 

YES! and obviously it can't be ENTIRELY from free, but with the attempt to use as many public domain ebooks as possible, and then with the attempt to use affordable and widely available modern eBooks after that, and then some widely available library and yard sale books.

 

It's not just about low cost, but also about storage and international homeschoolers. There are just a variety of people who would benefit by a good enough K-8 curriculum that is ultra affordable, can be downloaded internationally, and is mostly self contained on a tablet.

[Spy Car]

While people were commenting "I think there's something wrong with a curriculum that uses old books" I am saying to myself , Why? I seriously couldn't figure it out. :) Of course we raid the library for all the good and fun current picture books too.

I'll tell you why. I went down the same path Hunter is on now about 10 years ago. I started looking at all the vintage materials I could find hoping to find gems of value.

 

Instead I found seriously inadequate books. There were science books that were uselessly out of date. Math books that were unworthy of use today. History books that were widely inaccurate, many of which were filled with bigotry and racism.

 

So I'm not at all sanguine about finding a "best of" out of print books suitable for use today.

 

Bill

[raptor_dad]

I'll tell you why. I went down the same path Hunter is on now about 10 years ago. I started looking at all the vintage materials I could find hoping to find gems of value.

 

Instead I found seriously inadequate books. There were science books that were uselessly out of date. Math books that were unworthy of use today. History books that were widely inaccurate, many of which were filled with bigotry and racism.

 

So I'm not at all sanguine about finding a "best of" out of print books suitable for use today.

 

Bill

 

I'm all about vintage and OOP gems. However most of what I have found useful is from the late '50s-'70s. So these are out of print and often cheaply available but not free out of copyright resources. I don't understand the fascination with free vintage texts beyond some sort of neo-victorianism. It ends up costing as much to print as just buying a $5 shipped used book on Amazon.

 

To take an example, I have several 1890's algebra texts from previous threads. They are great but I also recently bought 1962,1965 copies of Dolciani Structure/Method 1 and 2, and a 60's Jergensen geometry text for under $25 shipped. Thats ~$8/book or $8 per year for excellent, rigourous books. Yes, I don't have or need solutions, but older books often don't have these either. No matter how limited your resources, I think you would be better using Dolciani vs trying to cobble together a course using texts from the 1890's.

 

Older textbooks are insanely cheap. I have conceptual physics, tarbuck's earth science, etc etc and haven't paid over $10 for any of them. At the younger ages, I appreciate older resources for their narative style but in general I find using pre-1920 resources to be too limiting.

 

I think using older OOP, cheaply available used resources can make sense but limiting it to free PD resources

is likely to end up costing only marginally less with printing and require substantially more time and judgement for the parent to adapt.

 

[Vida Winter]

Try NoteMonk. There is a very broad range of textbooks in the older grades, in addition to math and English in the lower grades.

 

Bill

 

Bill, do you need to download an entire textbook in order to preview?

[roanna]

I would have no desire to use old science or math books.  Even though my son actually likes Ray's.  

I'll be honest, when I was reading Just So Stories to my son last week and read the "N" word to myself before I read it out loud --thank goodness-- I was appalled and had to take a second to think about using the book.  Pictures of slaves was one thing but using a word like that was way out there to me.  I had to make a choice.  I decided, obviously, to not use the word but to keep reading the book to my son because he was enjoying the stories even though I thought they were a bit whacky and abstract for my enjoyment.  I have made a decision to not throw the baby out with the bathwater and just be careful.  It is a part of our history that even well meaning people during that time were mislead by pride and superiority.  

 

 

At this point I am just glad there is free stuff out there that is of quality for me to use in school because I simply cannot buy anything right now.  

 

 

[Spy Car]

Bill, do you need to download an entire textbook in order to preview?

I can't remember. Sorry.

 

Bill

[momma2three]

My experience is the same as that of a few people here... I love the idea of old textbooks, and have been collecting them for ages now because I thought that they were cool, and some have lovely art, and I admit to a bit of that neo-Victorian romanticism.  I always imagined using some for my own kids, but when I started homeschooling my oldest daughter I started looking through them and there was so much that needed to be taken out and moved that it just wasn't worth it.  Even things like spelling lists... there are so many new words in the Engish language than there were 80 or 100 years ago, and so many of them are pertinent to children... and a surprising number of words on the list are not likely to be needed anytime soon (I'm looking at you, "fag=a bundle of sticks").  And the composition book that I loved starts off with a photograph of black children picking cotton in a field and the text was really not something I was going to discuss with a modern child.  Yeah, no way am I using that.  I had a Science book too that I really liked... some sort of Dick and Jane knockoff... where they travel the US and learn about plants, but even with my own poor Science background I could see that it was heavy on story and really light on what we consider elementary school science now.

 

 

There are free modern resources available, even if they're not all gathered in one convenient package.  The social group that I mentioned earlier has lots of options.  There are particularly some great math (we use MEP) and science ones (funded by university grants mostly), but many textbook publishers put up their language art curricula.  You can get spelling lists from most of the major spelling programs used in schools by googling "[name of publisher] spelling list, and one publisher (Houghton Mifflin?  Can't remember) has a complete K-6th grade language arts workbook series available as PDFs on their website.  .

 

I would never, EVER, use a public domain history book... new research changes our understanding of history all the time, and I can't imagine foisting an early 20th century view of history on a child and then sending them out in the world with it.  I think that you could do elementary school history inexpensively if you have a really good library, because there are soooo many fabulous picture books and elementary-school-level books coming out all the time, but I would be certain to only use the most recent.  But I think it's hard to even have a book list, because lots of good books are pretty interchangeable... there are a ton of non-fiction picture books for kids about Stonehenge, for example, and IMO it doesn't really matter which one your library has for reading about it with your kids.  It's always annoying when you have a curriculum that has an "additional reading..." list at the end, and half the books are out of print. 

 

[Spy Car]

I'm all about vintage and OOP gems. However most of what I have found useful is from the late '50s-'70s. So these are out of print and often cheaply available but not free out of copyright resources. I don't understand the fascination with free vintage texts beyond some sort of neo-victorianism. It ends up costing as much to print as just buying a $5 shipped used book on Amazon.

 

To take an example, I have several 1890's algebra texts from previous threads. They are great but I also recently bought 1962,1965 copies of Dolciani Structure/Method 1 and 2, and a 60's Jergensen geometry text for under $25 shipped. Thats ~$8/book or $8 per year for excellent, rigourous books. Yes, I don't have or need solutions, but older books often don't have these either. No matter how limited your resources, I think you would be better using Dolciani vs trying to cobble together a course using texts from the 1890's.

 

Older textbooks are insanely cheap. I have conceptual physics, tarbuck's earth science, etc etc and haven't paid over $10 for any of them. At the younger ages, I appreciate older resources for their narative style but in general I find using pre-1920 resources to be too limiting.

 

I think using older OOP, cheaply available used resources can make sense but limiting it to free PD resources

is likely to end up costing only marginally less with printing and require substantially more time and judgement for the parent to adapt.

 

I'm 100% with you. I had one Dolciani math books and thanks to the generosity of Jane in NC recently acquired two more. They are marvelous!

 

I've also found two versions of Campbell's Biology (the full college level book, and one pitched younger) each of which I got for about $5. These are world-class textbooks.

 

Another free (but probably not public domain in a technical sense) resourse are the electronic versions of the textbooks produced by the School Mathematics Study Group (SMSG). These are the best of the 1960s "New Math." I know "New Math" has a long history of being lampooned in the popular culture, but for mathematically inclined people there is a great deal that can be gleaned for the SMSG materials. These were produced by first-rate mathematicians.

 

The problem with many of the "vintage" books is that there use is often not promoted accidentally or because they are inexpensive, or because they are good (which is rarely the case), it is because many of the modern-day proponents are reactionaries who favor the racist and sexist attitudes in these old books, and who share the bigotry. It is often not "thrift" that motivates their use, but "worldview." This is one of those "sad but true" realities in the dark corners of the home schooling world that few people wish to acknowledge.

 

Bill

[Farrar]

I'm with you, Bill. There are a few gems in vintage books, but they don't add up to a full, well-rounded curriculum for today.

[Tarreymere]

I think you're missing a big part of the picture. MEP and NCERT books are not 'vintage' or out of print. There is currently a veritable explosion of Creative Commons licensed free educational material out there. Khan Academy and CK12 are great examples of some of the excellent contemporary content available for free. Vintage books are only a small part of what is available. 

 

It is of course, perfectly possible to adapt or update vintage material if one is so inclined. There certainly are vintage texts that would be candidates for the effort involved to update them or to at least add some commentary about the social context of the times. Mark Twain's classic novels, for example, contain a slew of currently unacceptable social ideas but I don't often hear folks insist we should ditch Tom Sawyer because of those ideas. Even in our relatively enlightened times we still can find something of value in the past. I know that for my kids understanding that something like racism or sexism existed in the past is a pretty vague sort of thing, but encountering examples of it in literature really brings home the true impact of that kind of thinking. 

 

I think it would be a great benefit for the homeschooling community if there were a directory of free material along with some suggested schedules or plans. Some people would likely really prefer some kind of schedule or plan even to use content from Khan Academy or CK12. 

 

I also have to say that those of you with educated opinions on the published material that you consider to be the best example of whatever subject don't seem interested in sharing your opinions with the average homeschool family, unless said family is savvy enough to sift through the posts on a board like this. Where does the average home educator come by the knowledge that Dolciani is a great text? How does the average person, like me, find out about what you folks recommend? Maybe I should add 'great WTM forum thinker's curriculum picks that you might find at a discount' to my website. 

 

[momma2three]

I have a hard time imagining anyone young enough to have school-aged children thinking that you need any particular kind of savvy to participate on a message board like this?   :confused1:  I don't think I understand what you mean by that comment.  There are lots of other homeschool-related internet forums, too.  And Googling "free homeschool resources" brought up 3,850,000 results.  And I bought a book called "Homeschool Your Child For Free" a few years ago, and still see it at Barnes & Noble.  I don't think anyone is trying to hide expert opinions from the masses or anything.  But since everyone has different opinions about what's good and what works for their family, I don't think you're ever going to be able to come up with some definitive list of the "best free resource to use for every subject."

[Spy Car]

I think you're missing a big part of the picture. MEP and NCERT books are not 'vintage' or out of print. There is currently a veritable explosion of Creative Commons licensed free educational material out there. Khan Academy and CK12 are great examples of some of the excellent contemporary content available for free. Vintage books are only a small part of what is available.

 

It is of course, perfectly possible to adapt or update vintage material if one is so inclined. There certainly are vintage texts that would be candidates for the effort involved to update them or to at least add some commentary about the social context of the times. Mark Twain's classic novels, for example, contain a slew of currently unacceptable social ideas but I don't often hear folks insist we should ditch Tom Sawyer because of those ideas. Even in our relatively enlightened times we still can find something of value in the past. I know that for my kids understanding that something like racism or sexism existed in the past is a pretty vague sort of thing, but encountering examples of it in literature really brings home the true impact of that kind of thinking.

 

I think it would be a great benefit for the homeschooling community if there were a directory of free material along with some suggested schedules or plans. Some people would likely really prefer some kind of schedule or plan even to use content from Khan Academy or CK12.

 

I also have to say that those of you with educated opinions on the published material that you consider to be the best example of whatever subject don't seem interested in sharing your opinions with the average homeschool family, unless said family is savvy enough to sift through the posts on a board like this. Where does the average home educator come by the knowledge that Dolciani is a great text? How does the average person, like me, find out about what you folks recommend? Maybe I should add 'great WTM forum thinker's curriculum picks that you might find at a discount' to my website.

Mark Twain's books, like Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, skewer racists and racism, they don't endorse it. It is true that in skewering racism Twain's characters freely employ the term "nigger." This can make the works problematic for people (and schools) because the term is so loaded. But Twain's "ideas" are not racist, they are anti-racist.

 

This is quite a contrast with (for sake of example) the novels of GA Henty. When Henty says "nigger" he means it. The ideas and attitudes reflect the worst sort of Victorian attitudes. But his works, and others like them, are re-published or scheduled by Doug Phillips (the disgraced former leader of Vision Forum), Art Robinson ( a man who is off his rocker), and AO ( whose complicity with this I do not understand).

 

Works like Twain and Henty are not comparable in terms of "ideas" even if both authors use "niggers" in their works.

 

Bill

[Tarreymere]

I have a hard time imagining anyone young enough to have school-aged children thinking that you need any particular kind of savvy to participate on a message board like this?   :confused1:  I don't think I understand what you mean by that comment.  There are lots of other homeschool-related internet forums, too.  And Googling "free homeschool resources" brought up 3,850,000 results.  And I bought a book called "Homeschool Your Child For Free" a few years ago, and still see it at Barnes & Noble.  I don't think anyone is trying to hide expert opinions from the masses or anything.  But since everyone has different opinions about what's good and what works for their family, I don't think you're ever going to be able to come up with some definitive list of the "best free resource to use for every subject."

In the end, it will be my own opinion of what those 'best free resources" are. I do hope to research well enough to offer a list of resources of acceptable quality and I will be very happy to solicit and include commentary from other people who offer an opinion on an individual resource. This is hardly a new idea and it is one that other people, like Cathy Duffy for example, have done quite well with. 

 

I have never found lists of free links to be helpful and those thousands of google results include mostly either lists of links or links to  individual projects, worksheets, or unit studies. It takes hours and hours to sift through those, and most of us with children don't have the time or the inclination to sift through all of that if it isn't strictly necessary. You are welcome to do so if you prefer, of course.

 

While I am, barely, young enough to have school-age children, I apparently do not move in the same circles you do because most of the homeschooling families I know personally (with much younger parents) don't surf homeschooling forums. Some of the adults are aware that homeschool forums exist but tell me they don't really have time to spend reading them. They either don't know which forum to do a search on, or they may not know how to search posts on a forum. Some people have trouble coming up with a good query to search with. These people aren't going to spend time doing a search on WTM to find a recommendation for a not-quite-vintage biology text, especially since they don't spend enough time on a forum to know that some out of print but not out of copyright texts are considered to be an excellent resource. I'm not suggesting that this information is 'hidden', but it certainly isn't common knowledge.

 

Quite a few homeschooling families, rather than use a forum, tend to google for specific results. They really are not aware of how much is out there. Googling for specific results tends to result in those thousand of links you refer to, and I'm told that generally one's interest wanes after checking out a half a dozen or so. Consequently a good number of perfectly acceptable resources are never investigated. 

 

The book "Homeschool your child for free" while helpful was basically a compilation of links without commentary and is sadly out of date today. 

[Tarreymere]

Mark Twain's books, like Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, skewer racists and racism, they don't endorse it. It is true that in skewering racism Twain's characters freely employ the term "nigger." This can make the works problematic for people (and schools) because the term is so loaded. But Twain's "ideas" are not racist, they are anti-racist.

 

This is quite a contrast with (for sake of example) the novels of GA Henty. When Henty says "nigger" he means it. The ideas and attitudes reflect the worst sort of Victorian attitudes. But his works, and others like them, are re-published or scheduled by Doug Phillips (the disgraced former leader of Vision Forum), Art Robinson ( a man who is off his rocker), and AO ( whose complicity with this I do not understand).

 

Works like Twain and Henty are not comparable in terms of "ideas" even if both authors use "niggers" in their works.

 

Bill

That is exactly the kind of information that people need to know, and encountering Henty's social views in context is more revealing than just about anything else besides entering a time capsule and personally living through those times. It is one thing to know intellectually that that kind of racism existed in the past but reading this kind of literature, with proper guidance, gives the reader the closest thing to an opportunity to experience it. For some people, this kind of thing is so far from their normal experience that it is difficult to comprehend. 

 

It is certainly the choice of any family to only allow their kids to read books with a social context the family finds acceptable. I'm more of the opinion that in order to properly appreciate the kind of social culture we aspire to it is enlightening to see the reality of where we've come from. 

 

Again, this is a choice that needs to be made by the individual family and in regard to an individual text, for whatever purpose or reason the family deems appropriate. Not everyone who reads Henty does so in hopes their kids will grow up as racists.

[Spy Car]

That is exactly the kind of information that people need to know, and encountering Henty's social views in context is more revealing than just about anything else besides entering a time capsule and personally living through those times. It is one thing to know intellectually that that kind of racism existed in the past but reading this kind of literature, with proper guidance, gives the reader the closest thing to an opportunity to experience it. For some people, this kind of thing is so far from their normal experience that it is difficult to comprehend.

 

It is certainly the choice of any family to only allow their kids to read books with a social context the family finds acceptable. I'm more of the opinion that in order to properly appreciate the kind of social culture we aspire to it is enlightening to see the reality of where we've come from.

The problem (from my perspective) is that some groups (and families) read books like Henty not to explore the racist attitudes of the past (in a cautionary way) but to create and perpetuate those antiquated attitudes in a new generation.

 

Doug Phillips (Vision Forum) and Art Robinson use Henty books as a core of a "values education." They embrace these books and the values within. Understand that.

 

Bill

[Tarreymere]

The problem (from my perspective) is that some groups (and families) read books like Henty not to explore the racist attitudes of the past (in a cautionary way) but to create and perpetuate those antiquated attitudes in a new generation.

 

Doug Phillips (Vision Forum) and Art Robinson use Henty books as a core of a "values education." They embrace these books and the values within. Understand that.

 

Bill

Yes, I do understand that. I think it is an excellent thing to caution people about. I also think that some people, looking for free books, find Henty and other similar writers and offer those books to their kids and have no idea what their kids will be reading. That's exactly why I wanted to make a different kind of website for free resources, one that isn't just a list of free stuff, exactly because I want to include that kind of information. Even in my version of  homeschool, one or two Henty books are plenty to get the point I"m interested in making across to the kids. 

 

So, the big idea for my poor website is to list the free resource, describe the resource, and  list some kind of informed pros and cons of the free resource so families can make that informed choice. It's exactly why I don't think lists of links are helpful to most homeschooling families, because those links aren't accompanied by some kind of independent critique of that resource. I'm sure I'm not the only homeschooling parent who just doesn't have time to pre-read everything my kids read. My own introduction to the pitfalls of free vintage books came about a few years ago when I tried to do a read aloud of the comparatively innocuous Bobbsey Twins and ran smack into racism on the very first page. I wasn't prepared for it, and instead of listening to a family friendly story we ended up in a much deeper discussion that took a lot longer. 

 

I do think that there are some great vintage books out there. While I'm not informed well enough to know what the actual experts would consider to be a great resource, I do try to pay attention and I'd like to offer those kinds of opinions along with the list of links. 

 

I do think that between Creative Commons material and out of copyright material there is enough 'good stuff', and that the potential to create some kind of preferred free program of study exists. Ideally, that will mean schedules and maybe even lesson plans to make it easier for the average person like myself. 

 

Maybe, as an exercise in possibility, we could list what we think might be a decent program of study using free resources either vintage or contemporary. Or, we could list a program of study that uses those special out of print but not out of copyright resources for a 'not quite free but close' program of study. Anyone interested? I hope so because I'd like to take notes. 

[momma2three]

Have you checked out the social group that I keep mentioning?  There are a bunch of suggestions there.

[Walking-Iris]

The problem (from my perspective) is that some groups (and families) read books like Henty not to explore the racist attitudes of the past (in a cautionary way) but to create and perpetuate those antiquated attitudes in a new generation.

 

Doug Phillips (Vision Forum) and Art Robinson use Henty books as a core of a "values education." They embrace these books and the values within. Understand that.

 

Bill

 

I understand what you're saying. Although I wouldn't want to make assumptions on what values other homeschoolers that I don't know personally are embracing when they read a particular book. It's a sore spot for me.

 

For example...I have been blasted from one particular friend IRL forever because I truly enjoy Atlas Shrugged. He can't seem to wrap his mind around the thought that a person could read that book, like it, enjoy it, think about it, ponder it, learn from it, use it to pass the time---whatever, without being a raging right wing Tea Party/ Libertarian/GOP/ Koch Brother Worshiper---(or something!) I'm still confused on exactly what his problem is...LOL.

 

I've read one Henty book. The Cat of Bubastes. I found it more boring rather than anything else. I did however have the feeling that it may be enjoyable to one of the kids at some point, so it's there on the shelf if ever it wants to be read. I can't comment on any other of his books because I haven't read them, and I don't consider them "necessary" that I would search them out. But I certainly wouldn't fault others who did want to read them. I'm more critical of what is in actual homeschooling curricula, programs/textbooks or books written detailing the education of children than I am of individual books (literature/nonfiction) written by individual authors.

 

I'm very anti-censorship however. Both my dh and I have the belief that no book---regardless of what it is---should be restricted, or white washed, or dumb downed. We have our own personal tastes and our purchases for our home reflect that, I assume other families are the same. I've read all the Just So Stories aloud to my children, and I'd do it again. I don't feel that reading it will somehow turn my children into racists. I feel the same about Twain. I will never have an edited version of that book. It's ridiculous. I can't stand any form of censorship. I actually feel the same about D'Aulaire books. I however don't read those any longer because they were pretty distasteful to me personally. Again I don't fault others for reading them. 

 

The point of the D'Aulaire books in my mind is their artwork---a kid can get a good feeling for that from the Norse and Greek myths books. We'll get our history elsewhere thank you. 

 

I also don't have the feeling that I need to moralize everything we read. There's too much of that these days. No need to stop and discuss every thing that might be "wrong" with what's read. 

 

Certainly there are plenty of curricula and homeschooling groups out there that have possible ulterior motives for choosing a book on a reading list. Not much can be done about that, unless books start getting arbitrarily banned to prevent others who "may" be racist reading something they "may" agree with. I can't decide what's worse though---racism in a book that may influence a reader's thoughts, or banning books?

 

You know there's plenty of books that I personally hope my kids never read---but if they did, wanted to, I wouldn't be overly concerned about it. I respect education and literature enough to see value in all kinds of the written word.

 

This is where critical thinking skills come in handy rather than just flat out restricting access.

[Korrale]

If you are thinking portable, especially with iPads have you considered apps rather than textbooks?

I don't know what is out there for older kids but there are some amazing resources for the K-3 crowd that are cheap, not always free, and chock full of information.

Granted, I know it would be hard to find a single entire curriculum. But with the use of several quality apps you could do a lot.

 

The TeachMe apps are good for the young ones.

I have a few great informative science apps from Nth (something)

Apps by Super Duper are pretty good also.

Splash Math has a complete curriculum of worksheet style math for reinforcement. You can then couple that with YouTube videos if one does not desire to use direct teaching methods.

There are also a plethora of language apps.

I have a few great geography apps by Kids Maps and Nth (whatever it is... fusion maybe?)

K-12 have some literary apps. I haven't explored too much. But I they do have one that measures fluency and comprehension.

I also believe that major contemporary text book publishers Houghton and Mifflin, plus Pearson have apps also. I haven't looked too much into those. There is a lot that could be researched, and I do believe with a little digging around the App Store, YouTube access and some guidance one could cover a curriculum for more than a few grades.

[Korrale]

And I know that it is subscription based but sites like A Time For Learning are meant to be full curriculums.

[Spy Car]

I understand what you're saying. Although I wouldn't want to make assumptions on what values other homeschoolers that I don't know personally are embracing when they read a particular book. It's a sore spot for me.

 

For example...I have been blasted from one particular friend IRL forever because I truly enjoy Atlas Shrugged. He can't seem to wrap his mind around the thought that a person could read that book, like it, enjoy it, think about it, ponder it, learn from it, use it to pass the time---whatever, without being a raging right wing Tea Party/ Libertarian/GOP/ Koch Brother Worshiper---(or something!) I'm still confused on exactly what his problem is...LOL.

 

I've read one Henty book. The Cat of Bubastes. I found it more boring rather than anything else. I did however have the feeling that it may be enjoyable to one of the kids at some point, so it's there on the shelf if ever it wants to be read. I can't comment on any other of his books because I haven't read them, and I don't consider them "necessary" that I would search them out. But I certainly wouldn't fault others who did want to read them. I'm more critical of what is in actual homeschooling curricula, programs/textbooks or books written detailing the education of children than I am of individual books (literature/nonfiction) written by individual authors.

 

I'm very anti-censorship however. Both my dh and I have the belief that no book---regardless of what it is---should be restricted, or white washed, or dumb downed. We have our own personal tastes and our purchases for our home reflect that, I assume other families are the same. I've read all the Just So Stories aloud to my children, and I'd do it again. I don't feel that reading it will somehow turn my children into racists. I feel the same about Twain. I will never have an edited version of that book. It's ridiculous. I can't stand any form of censorship. I actually feel the same about D'Aulaire books. I however don't read those any longer because they were pretty distasteful to me personally. Again I don't fault others for reading them.

 

The point of the D'Aulaire books in my mind is their artwork---a kid can get a good feeling for that from the Norse and Greek myths books. We'll get our history elsewhere thank you.

 

I also don't have the feeling that I need to moralize everything we read. There's too much of that these days. No need to stop and discuss every thing that might be "wrong" with what's read.

 

Certainly there are plenty of curricula and homeschooling groups out there that have possible ulterior motives for choosing a book on a reading list. Not much can be done about that, unless books start getting arbitrarily banned to prevent others who "may" be racist reading something they "may" agree with. I can't decide what's worse though---racism in a book that may influence a reader's thoughts, or banning books?

 

You know there's plenty of books that I personally hope my kids never read---but if they did, wanted to, I wouldn't be overly concerned about it. I respect education and literature enough to see value in all kinds of the written word.

 

This is where critical thinking skills come in handy rather than just flat out restricting access.

I hope you understand that I have not advocated banning books or censoring them. But there are groups that definitely have ulterior motives when they promote the use of some of these books. I was naive about that once, but not anymore.

 

As for Atlas Shrugged, I read it in Middle School. In addition to the reprehensible (from my point of view) morality/immorality of Ayn Rand that clogged the work, her "characters" had to be some of the thinnest and least developed ones in any book I've ever read. And it is not like there was lack of time or space in the massive waste of paper for some character development. As "literature" it is a very low merit IMO. She is not much of a stylist. The plot is ridiculous. And the whole thing reeks of an extremist ideology. What's to like?

 

Bill

[Hunter]

Rainefox, are you most interested in collecting written reviews of as many resources as possible, or in helping to produce a complete curriculum that uses carefully chosen and scheduled public domain and creative common resources as the core of the curriculum.

 

AO only uses ONE Henty book, and does not advocate the Henty books for character development; AO uses Plutarch for character development. The Henty book used by AO is also used in many other history/literature based curricula that are very popular here, and is available at most public libraries, even in audio format. AO should not be singled out for using that title. That's not fair.

 

A core curriculum does not have to be everything a child learns. It can merely be the core, that is then supplemented with WHATEVER a family has available to them. It needs to cover the 3Rs, and some very basic content, and some interesting things to keep the students and teacher engaged. And many homeschooling families thrive off of a schedule and the ability to interact with other families following the same schedule.

 

Once a curriculum is established, multiple families can test-drive it and then it can be tweaked. And after that, the weaknesses can be listed, and individual families can address those weaknesses in their own way. They often have sufficient energy and money to work at those FEW weaknesses, if the core curriculum took care of the BULK of the skills and topics that needed to be covered.

 

If you have your base curriculum, and then are told by other users that the February science on earth science topics is missing any information on plate tectonics, the mom knows months in advance that she needs to collect something to cover that topic. Or she can decide that she has no idea what that even is, and that if she got this far in life not knowing, she has bigger things to worry about right now. If her kids tested 5 years above grade level, read so widely and independently she doesn't even know if they HAVE read about plate tectonics, and are thriving in every way, it really isn't that big of a problem.

 

We can worry so much about the details that we don't get the core done. I believe the core can be complete with mostly public domain and creative common eBooks, and a very few modern eBooks. I believe that once the core is covered, just a little unschooling can make up for the difference.

 

EBooks do not always need to be printed! Technology is quickly reducing the need for paper. The older books were often read aloud to students or were just TMs that the teacher used for reference to write on the blackboard and to lecture. Vintage texts were often shorter and don't always require much paper when they are printed. Some parents teach math using the "Math on the Level" method by writing problems on paper.

 

I don't print the vintage texts I use. I use a lot of Waldorf, Principle Approach, CM and MOTL methods where the student does not see the texts, and I read them on my iPad Mini.

 

For families overseas, with steep shipping fees and taxes and customs fees, download is always better even if they do decide to print.

[Spy Car]

AO only uses ONE Henty book, and does not advocate the Henty books for character development; AO uses Plutarch for character development. The Henty book used by AO is also used in many other history/literature based curricula that are very popular here, and is available at most public libraries, even in audio format. AO should not be singled out for using that title. That's not fair.

 

AO does use This Country of Ours, one of the most inaccurate, out of date, racist, and bigoted works imaginable, for it's multi-year American history spine for children. They deserve rebuke for that. How they justify that is beyond me.

 

Bill

[Walking-Iris]

I hope you understand that I have not advocated banning books or censoring them. But there are groups that definitely have ulterior motives when they promote the use of some of these books. I was naive about that once, but not anymore.

 

As for Atlas Shrugged, I read it in Middle School. In addition to the reprehensible (from my point of view) morality/immorality of Ayn Rand that clogged the work, her "characters" had to be some of the thinnest and least developed ones in any book I've ever read. And it is not like there was lack of time or space in the massive waste of paper for some character development. As "literature" it is a very low merit IMO. She is not much of a stylist. The plot is ridiculous. And the whole thing reeks of an extremist ideology. What's to like?

 

Bill

 

I I didn't mean to imply that you did, but I was suggesting that sure there are these books that people read and they may agree with the ideas...but what exactly is to be done about it?

 

And your comment about Ayn Rand---you've sort of proven a good point although I doubt you meant to.

 

Who exactly nominates certain people to pass down all -knowing judgement about the types of books that people choose to read or enjoy? Who cares what you think you about it? Seriously? Who cares?

 

It's absolutely fine that people hold an opinion about a book by the way. It's fine you feel that way. (Although literary analysis of Ayn Rand is not the point of this thread---I'm sure we all appreciate your advanced analysis skills remembered from middle school....albeit a strange middle school....)

 

My point in sharing that example was in hopes to share how extremely annoying it is when people who disagree with some book for whatever reason get a holier than thou trip about it. 

 

Definitely banning books is bad----but basically making it seem that those who do read certain books are somehow your intellectual inferiors is good?