Cowspiracy

[Mergath]

I'm watching this right now (the credits just started rolling as I'm typing) and I was curious if anyone else has watched it now that it's on Netflix. I looked and didn't see any threads about it.

 

I'm horrified. If you haven't heard of it, the documentary isn't about factory farm practices (though there's a bit of that addressed here and there) but rather is about how raising animals for meat and dairy- whether in a factory farm or through organic free-range farming practices- is the number one cause of environmental destruction worldwide, and that the major environmental groups are (possibly) being paid off by these pro-meat lobbying groups to cover it up. (Thus the "cowspiracy.")

 

Even if you don't think there's actually a conspiracy here, it's pretty hard to argue with the numbers, and that cutting way, way back on meat (or eliminating it all together) is really the only solution to many of our environmental problems.

 

Thoughts? I'm especially curious to hear what the people on high-protein diets that eat a ton of meat and dairy products think about this. I'm not vegan or vegetarian myself, but I'm certainly considering going that way after watching this.

[Word Nerd]

Oh, good grief.

[Guest]

I've been vegetarian since 1973 and vegan since 1992. I haven't seen that particular movie, but I read John Robbins' The Food Revolution this month so I am aware of the fact that things haven't exactly improved since Diet for a Small Planet was the newest hottest thing.

 

We aren't "tryn-dee" any more, so your Weston A. Price/Paleo friends aren't going to appreciate you being "out" about it and I'm typing this post out in blissful ignorance of any negativity from the Hive, lol.

 

I've found it helpful to bring homemade soy drink to Park Day in quart mason jars so that everybody thinks it's illegal unpasteurized cow's milk. The only questions I've ever had are, "Where do you get that?" and they're always satisfied with, "I'm not allowed to tell you."

 

There are a lot of good recipes here:

 

http://vegweb.com/

 

Vegetatarian Times magazine is still good if you like magazines, and it comes in both print and iThings varieties.

 

and you might well be able to connect with some like minded local folks by typing "vegetarian society" into your search engine.

 

There are some books out there for kids too if you type the relevant terms into the Amazon or B&N search engine. ds7 has picture books that help him feel good about doing something positive for the environment every time he has a meal, but they are age appropriate and don't scare him.

 

Even if you find it impractical to go veg full time, please feel good about doing what you CAN do, including posting an unpopular opinion on a internet forum.

 

((((((((((((((((((Mergath))))))))))))))))))

[Mergath]

Oh, good grief.

 

Care to elaborate with any actual facts or, you know, complete sentences?

[Aelwydd]

Ha! We just watched it, too. Honestly, none of the information presented was new to me. I'm already familiar with the tremendous toll agriculture takes on the environment. There are dozens of studies and credible reports to substantiate the claim that the environmental cost of eating meat is absolutely phenomenal.

 

Honestly, DH has been vegetarian-going-on-vegan for a few years now, mostly due to his disgust with how both people (workers) and animals are treated as commodities and horribly abused by Big Ag common practices.

 

For myself, I have already given up meat 90% of the time and working towards vegetarianism. What did it for me, is the complete contempt that industry has for Americans, whether they are workers, small farmers, or consumers.

 

So, they won't get my money.

[Guest]

Honestly, my first thought is, "great, one more thing to worry about and I can't do shit to fix it". Me going veg won't fix the problem and would probably cause health issues for me. So, that's my brilliant thought.

[Mergath]

I've been vegetarian since 1978 and vegan since 1992. I haven't seen that particular movie, but I read John Robbins' The Food Revolution this month so I am aware of the fact that things haven't exactly improved since Diet for a Small Planet was the newest hottest thing.

 

We aren't "tryn-dee" any more, so your Weston A. Price/Paleo friends aren't going to appreciate you being "out" about it and I'm typing this post out in blissful ignorance of any negativity from the Hive, lol.

 

I've found it helpful to bring homemade soy drink to Park Day in quart mason jars so that everybody thinks it's illegal unpasteurized cow's milk. The only questions I've ever had are, "Where do you get that?" and they're always satisfied with, "I'm not allowed to tell you."

 

There are a lot of good recipes here:

 

http://vegweb.com/

 

Vegetatarian Times magazine is still good if you like magazines, and it comes in both print and iThings varieties.

 

and you might well be able to connect with some like minded local folks by typing "vegetarian society" into your search engine.

 

There are some books out there for kids too if you type the relevant terms into the Amazon or B&N search engine. ds7 has picture books that help him feel good about doing something positive for the environment every time he has a meal, but they are age appropriate and don't scare him.

 

Even if you find it impractical to go veg full time, please feel good about doing what you CAN do, including posting an unpopular opinion on a internet forum.

 

((((((((((((((((((Mergath))))))))))))))))))

 

Thank you for the info! I don't suppose you happen to know of any books titled, "How to get your meat-loving husband to watch documentaries on Netflix, do internet research, and subsequently make drastic decreases to his meat consumption"? I've suggested we cut back on meat before, and the look he give me was similar to how I imagine he'd look if I had kicked him in his delicate man-parts, lol.

 

I got a good chuckle from your story about the soy drink, btw.  :lol:  

[Minerva]

I haven't seen the movie but am aware of the terrible havoc that large farms are creating on our planet. To help, we eat a vegan diet two days a week in our house. We try to tread lightly on the other days. I don't know how much this is actually helping, but hopefully some. I do like meat and feel much healthier when I am eating it, but I haven't figured out any other compromise that works well for our family. 

 

I will definitely watch the documentary. 

[Mergath]

Ha! We just watched it, too. Honestly, none of the information presented was new to me. I'm already familiar with the tremendous toll agriculture takes on the environment. There are dozens of studies and credible reports to substantiate the claim that the environmental cost of eating meat is absolutely phenomenal.

 

Honestly, DH has been vegetarian-going-on-vegan for a few years now, mostly due to his disgust with how both people (workers) and animals are treated as commodities and horribly abused by Big Ag common practices.

 

For myself, I have already given up meat 90% of the time and working towards vegetarianism. What did it for me, is the complete contempt that industry has for Americans, whether they are workers, small farmers, or consumers.

 

So, they won't get my money.

 

I knew that animal agriculture was bad for the environment in a general sense, especially since the drought in California began and there's been so much talk about how much water cattle need, but I didn't truly understand the scale of it. I think in the back of my mind I always thought that environmental groups would focus on it more if it was that big of a problem, but now after seeing this, I doubt that's true. It was certainly disturbing that almost everyone he talked to, when he brought up animal agriculture, was either completely clueless or became very nervous. 

[Aelwydd]

Honestly, my first thought is, "great, one more thing to worry about and I can't do shit to fix it". Me going veg won't fix the problem and would probably cause health issues for me. So, that's my brilliant thought.

Such a decision never affects just you or your health. Your spouse, your children, your extended family and friends are all exposed to an alternative perspective on diet and health.

 

For me, with my knowledge of public health risk associated with things like salmonella, E. coli., etc, along with the environmental aspects, and finally the social/ human aspects of it, eating meat just has lost its appeal to me.

 

I do get how overwhelming such a decision is though. I don't pressure or attempt to convert others to my view.

[Mergath]

Honestly, my first thought is, "great, one more thing to worry about and I can't do shit to fix it". Me going veg won't fix the problem and would probably cause health issues for me. So, that's my brilliant thought.

 

:grouphug:

[*Lulu*]

Honestly, my first thought is, "great, one more thing to worry about and I can't do shit to fix it". Me going veg won't fix the problem and would probably cause health issues for me. So, that's my brilliant thought.

I get that. I feel like that about the garment industry. I absolutely count on Old Navy and Target clearance racks to keep our family clothed. The idea that some or all of those items are inexpensive to me because they are being produced by cheap labor makes me sad.

 

Our family eating style was very much meat driven. DH didn't feel like it was a meal unless there was a big hunk of meat sitting on the plate. We are still not vegetarians by any means, but we eat meatless 3-4 nights a week now. My goal for next year is, outside of our meals with extended family, for us to only have one meat based meal a week.

 

I can't fix anything. But I can make small steps in the direction I think most beneficial to my family. (Which includes leaving a the world a little better than it is for the next generation and beyond.)

[Aelwydd]

I knew that animal agriculture was bad for the environment in a general sense, especially since the drought in California began and there's been so much talk about how much water cattle need, but I didn't truly understand the scale of it. I think in the back of my mind I always thought that environmental groups would focus on it more if it was that big of a problem, but now after seeing this, I doubt that's true. It was certainly disturbing that almost everyone he talked to, when he brought up animal agriculture, was either completely clueless or became very nervous.

The only argument I have with the film is some of his calculations, such as 300+ lbs of meat per person. From what I have been reading, most Americans have reduced their meat intake over the last several years, mostly due a combination of health and economic reasons. The most recent figure I read was an average of less than 140 lbs meat per person per year. Still unsustainable, but much lower than his figures.

[*Lulu*]

Thank you for the info! I don't suppose you happen to know of any books titled, "How to get your meat-loving husband to watch documentaries on Netflix, do internet research, and subsequently make drastic decreases to his meat consumption"? I've suggested we cut back on meat before, and the look he give me was similar to how I imagine he'd look if I had kicked him in his delicate man-parts, lol.

 

I got a good chuckle from your story about the soy drink, btw. :lol:

I got my DH softened up by moving to meals that involved shredded meat or a meat component in a larger dish (soups, etc) then I showed him the grocery savings. Once he realized how much of our food money was being spent on meat I was able to convince him to do two meatless meals a week. After a year of that we moved to 3-4 meatless meals. Now when I say, let's try one meat meal/week he doesn't even flinch.

 

So, basically, I used the boil a frog approach. :P

[Mergath]

The only argument I have with the film is some of his calculations, such as 300+ lbs of meat per person. From what I have been reading, most Americans have reduced their meat intake over the last several years, mostly due a combination of health and economic reasons. The most recent figure I read was an average of less than 140 lbs meat per person per year. Still unsustainable, but much lower than his figures.

 

I wonder if the popularity of Paleo diets have boosted the numbers back up again over the last couple of years? Hmm. Off to google.

[SKL]

Decades ago I did my law school paper on deforestation / environmental incentives, and back then I learned that feeding beef cattle was the biggest motive behind deforestation.  I thought this knowledge was rather wide-spread by now.

 

My family eats very little beef, and not much of any meat, though we are not anything-arian.  It's just another "less is more" for me.

[mamiof5]

We do eat a lot of chicken and meat, also fish, and we do try tofu probably once every couple weeks. I am afraid that anything we do impacts our environment in one way or another...just the fact that we live on this planet affects our environment in a negative way. And we do love fruits and vegetables, but can't peacefully eat those, have to worry about all the pesticides and chemicals and we can't afford organic produce. We try to have a healthy diet, but it's not necessarily affordable or easy.

[Alessandra]

Thank you for the info! I don't suppose you happen to know of any books titled, "How to get your meat-loving husband to watch documentaries on Netflix, do internet research, and subsequently make drastic decreases to his meat consumption"? I've suggested we cut back on meat before, and the look he give me was similar to how I imagine he'd look if I had kicked him in his delicate man-parts, lol.

 

I got a good chuckle from your story about the soy drink, btw. :lol:

I have a suggestion, a documentary, Frederick Wiseman's film, Meat. I was a vegetarian for ten years after seeing it.

 

On agriculture in general, Richard Kirby's Animal Factory is a good read. Kirby is also the author of Death at Sea World.

[Mergath]

Decades ago I did my law school paper on deforestation / environmental incentives, and back then I learned that feeding beef cattle was the biggest motive behind deforestation.  I thought this knowledge was rather wide-spread by now.

 

My family eats very little beef, and not much of any meat, though we are not anything-arian.  It's just another "less is more" for me.

 

I think there are a lot of people like me, who have kind of a general idea that it's bad, but sitting down and seeing all the numbers and all the effects presented at once is shocking. 

[Aelwydd]

I haven't seen the movie but am aware of the terrible havoc that large farms are creating on our planet. To help, we eat a vegan diet two days a week in our house. We try to tread lightly on the other days. I don't know how much this is actually helping, but hopefully some. I do like meat and feel much healthier when I am eating it, but I haven't figured out any other compromise that works well for our family.

 

I will definitely watch the documentary.

I believe it definitely helps to reduce in any way possible. I respect that food is a heavily inculturated subject and involves a lot of emotions like comfort and it binds people together. I think that's another issue I had with the film, the statement that "you cannot be an environmental activist and consume animal products."

 

That all-or-nothing approach is a convert's mindset, and is not particularly helpful or practical in reducing reliance upon animal products.

[Aelwydd]

I wonder if the popularity of Paleo diets have boosted the numbers back up again over the last couple of years? Hmm. Off to google.

 

Maybe. But, one can still eat paleo and reduce meat intake. Nuts, eggs, legumes, mussells, and fresh veggies, are good diet staples.

 

Honestly, eating tons of meat is not really economically viable for many middle class families nowadays.

[chocolatechip]

Thanks for posting, Mergath. I don't have anything brilliant to add to the discussion, but it's definitely given me something to ponder.

[Aelwydd]

We do eat a lot of chicken and meat, also fish, and we do try tofu probably once every couple weeks. I am afraid that anything we do impacts our environment in one way or another...just the fact that we live on this planet affects our environment in a negative way. And we do love fruits and vegetables, but can't peacefully eat those, have to worry about all the pesticides and chemicals and we can't afford organic produce. We try to have a healthy diet, but it's not necessarily affordable or easy.

It's all about small steps, IMO. It also needs to be said that the US food system is not set up to be particularly helpful in making healthy choices. It needs to be recognized that any movement towards a fresh veggies and fruit oriented diet is going against the tide.

[*Lulu*]

It's all about small steps, IMO. It also needs to be said that the US food system is not set up to be particularly helpful in making healthy choices. It needs to be recognized that any movement towards a fresh veggies and fruit oriented diet is going against the tide.

It is a lot like homeschooling.

 

Because you homeschool you are a total nut to some

 

But

 

Unless you are anti-public schools you aren't hard core enough for some

 

And

 

If you use secular curriculum you aren't godly enough for some

 

But

 

If you use a religious based anything you are a religious nut

[Farrar]

I mostly feel what Moxie expressed. I'm aware of this... but I'm aware of a lot of the environmental worries out there and most of them feel insurmountable. We limit our red meat consumption a lot and rely on poultry more than anything else, which has less environmental impact (but is definitely more than eating veg). I was veg for a long time, but I don't feel willing to do it again. Sigh. No good answers there.

[Guest]

I cannot watch it; I bought some extremely beautiful steak today!

 

More seriously, I do have a general idea of how much less efficient land use is for grazing animals vs. If equal amounts of land were devoted to raising plant diet agriculture. So I do kinda know, but TBH, I know enough to know I don't care to dig deeper.

 

I was a veg for a year or two a couple of decades ago. I quit when I became pregnant and was concerned that I did not eat enough protein (and this was long before "protein" was so emphasized and everyone was telling us to avoid animal fats). I started eating tuna to get a good low-fat protein (this was also before the mercury recommendations in pregnancy, ironically). After I started eating tuna, I just decided that my reasons for eating veg were not well-defined and my knowledge of combined proteins was weak, so it would be better to eat all normal and natural food in a balanced way.

 

DH is a farm boy from way back. Over his dead body would he give up meat, or even reduce it in a meaningful way. He gets very whiney if/when I merely try to serve a lighter meal; when I serve a nice soup and salad and tell him I do not want to always eat like a fat American. ;) He is also not a reader/researcher/consumer of info the way I am, so I really have had no success ever trying to bring a very different way of thinking about things to his consideration, unless perhaps we are both naked and glowing. ;) Persuasion Tactic #47, unfortunately not widely applicable.

[awisha.]

I'm watching this right now (the credits just started rolling as I'm typing) and I was curious if anyone else has watched it now that it's on Netflix. I looked and didn't see any threads about it.

 

I'm horrified. If you haven't heard of it, the documentary isn't about factory farm practices (though there's a bit of that addressed here and there) but rather is about how raising animals for meat and dairy- whether in a factory farm or through organic free-range farming practices- is the number one cause of environmental destruction worldwide, and that the major environmental groups are (possibly) being paid off by these pro-meat lobbying groups to cover it up. (Thus the "cowspiracy.")

 

Even if you don't think there's actually a conspiracy here, it's pretty hard to argue with the numbers, and that cutting way, way back on meat (or eliminating it all together) is really the only solution to many of our environmental problems.

 

Thoughts? I'm especially curious to hear what the people on high-protein diets that eat a ton of meat and dairy products think about this. I'm not vegan or vegetarian myself, but I'm certainly considering going that way after watching this.

You should watch Earthlings next but with the warning that it is *extremely* graphic.

 

I'll be a vegan for one year 1st Oct, but I went vegan because meat started tasting bad to me. I've learnt SO much about how animals are treated, speciesm, agriculture practices, health etc that there is NO way I can go back.

There are a heap of good vegan cookbooks and you can veganise pretty much any recipe out there.

My husband is omni and, unfortunately, my kids are too but I have them using plant milks instead of animal milks. They eat 1-2 omni meals a week, and then whatever vegan food I make the rest of the week.

[Mergath]

I cannot watch it; I bought some extremely beautiful steak today!

 

More seriously, I do have a general idea of how much less efficient land use is for grazing animals vs. If equal amounts of land were devoted to raising plant diet agriculture. So I do kinda know, but TBH, I know enough to know I don't care to dig deeper.

 

I was a veg for a year or two a couple of decades ago. I quit when I became pregnant and was concerned that I did not eat enough protein (and this was long before "protein" was so emphasized and everyone was telling us to avoid animal fats). I started eating tuna to get a good low-fat protein (this was also before the mercury recommendations in pregnancy, ironically). After I started eating tuna, I just decided that my reasons for eating veg were not well-defined and my knowledge of combined proteins was weak, so it would be better to eat all normal and natural food in a balanced way.

 

DH is a farm boy from way back. Over his dead body would he give up meat, or even reduce it in a meaningful way. He gets very whiney if/when I merely try to serve a lighter meal; when I serve a nice soup and salad and tell him I do not want to always eat like a fat American. ;) He is also not a reader/researcher/consumer of info the way I am, so I really have had no success ever trying to bring a very different way of thinking about things to his consideration, unless perhaps we are both naked and glowing. ;) Persuasion Tactic #47, unfortunately not widely applicable.

 

This is where I was before I watched Cowspiracy. Seeing all the info like that gave me the boost I need, I think, to actually make changes as opposed to just sitting around worrying that I should make some changes. And I think we must be married to the same man. ;) I'm allergic to shellfish and have oral allergy syndrome, dh is allergic to poultry, and neither of us much care for pork that isn't in the form of bacon, so we eat more red meat than even the average American. Though we do have a garden that we started this year, and that helped us eat a lot more fresh produce. 

[Mergath]

Dh just texted me from work. His machine is down so he's playing on his phone, and he saw my post on FB about this and he actually wants to watch the documentary. So that's a start, at least.

[Guest]

This is where I was before I watched Cowspiracy. Seeing all the info like that gave me the boost I need, I think, to actually make changes as opposed to just sitting around worrying that I should make some changes. And I think we must be married to the same man. ;) I'm allergic to shellfish and have oral allergy syndrome, dh is allergic to poultry, and neither of us much care for pork that isn't in the form of bacon, so we eat more red meat than even the average American. Though we do have a garden that we started this year, and that helped us eat a lot more fresh produce.

It worries me, though, to even consider going veg again, because I am pretty much Paleo now and so many things have improved in my general health. I had to quit the dairy because of lactose intolerance, and clearly feel much better with lower carbs overall. My father is diabetic and I am so afraid of that disease, straight up. When I was veg, I ate carbs by the boatload. I think I feel so impaired from being able to just plan a normal week's worth of food as it is...I just do not want to know more, making me paralyzed about what the hell to eat now; it is already tricky enough not eating dairy, with a family of dairy-eaters, and eating GF grains or no grains, when I am the only one who needs this.

 

Some of it also goes back to the thing Moxie said - it is like trying to contemplate the national debt. I cannot fix it. Even if I could do something, I cannot make any appreciable dent. It does feel hopeless.

 

I just watched a FB video my vegan friend posted, about a little Spanish-speaking boy screaming, "No! no!" And clinging to his little goat when he realized the goats are being slaughtered. Of course that breaks my heart! But I know I can't rationally never eat meat again because a sad Spanish boy saw his goat get killed for food. This is where I feel like I just can't even know...I can't even know how bad things are because I don't want to be in turmoil over my meals.

[Mergath]

It worries me, though, to even consider going veg again, because I am pretty much Paleo now and so many things have improved in my general health. I had to quit the dairy because of lactose intolerance, and clearly feel much better with lower carbs overall. My father is diabetic and I am so afraid of that disease, straight up. When I was veg, I ate carbs by the boatload. I think I feel so impaired from being able to just plan a normal week's worth of food as it is...I just do not want to know more, making me paralyzed about what the hell to eat now; it is already tricky enough not eating dairy, with a family of dairy-eaters, and eating GF grains or no grains, when I am the only one who needs this.

 

Some of it also goes back to the thing Moxie said - it is like trying to contemplate the national debt. I cannot fix it. Even if I could do something, I cannot make any appreciable dent. It does feel hopeless.

 

I just watched a FB video my vegan friend posted, about a little Spanish-speaking boy screaming, "No! no!" And clinging to his little goat when he realized the goats are being slaughtered. Of course that breaks my heart! But I know I can't rationally never eat meat again because a sad Spanish boy saw his goat get killed for food. This is where I feel like I just can't even know...I can't even know how bad things are because I don't want to be in turmoil over my meals.

 

:grouphug:  You should eat what you need to eat to be healthy. I don't think anyone here would recommend eating in a way that makes you sick. I also think if the country as a whole is aware of the facts and makes the choices best for their families, well, that's the best any of us can do. 

[Rosie_0801]

I find I can do without meat very well if I eat beans two or three times per day.

 

That's not realistic with our current schedule. Maybe the time will come that I can get back to it. It suits me better. 

[SarahW]

It all depends on how it's done. Feeding ruminants grains in close quarters and mismanaging the waste is an enormous waste of resources. Historically, livestock were raised on "marginal" lands which were unfit for farming. In many parts of the world, this is still the case. But American conceit from an overabundance of fertile land in the heartland, and Big Ag which only cares about profit, has caused livestock to become an environmental problem. But livestock themselves is not a problem.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/actually-raising-beef-is-good-for-the-planet-1419030738

 

I'm low income, but at least 3/4th of the meat I eat is grass or pasture-raised. Sometimes it's local. If you make a commitment to it, it can be done.

 

WAP/Paleo also advocates grass and pasture-raised meat. Honestly, the vegan scaremongering about all meat pisses me off. Meat is nutritious and calorically dense. The anti-meat message is going global, and it really hurts those who still practice traditional livestock grazing and have food instability. And those traditional gazing practices are not hurting the planet at all, they are sometimes critical to the overall agriculture. 

 

Veganism is a conceit of the western world. Shall I go into how many bugs die every year due to raising vegetables? Even in an organic farm? Did you know that scientists are getting worried about the status of the insect population? If you really want to help the planet with your plate, consider the entire system of agriculture and put your food dollars to the system which respects the health of the whole planet, animals, plants, humans, and insects. 

[Mergath]

It all depends on how it's done. Feeding ruminants grains in close quarters and mismanaging the waste is an enormous waste of resources. Historically, livestock were raised on "marginal" lands which were unfit for farming. In many parts of the world, this is still the case. But American conceit from an overabundance of fertile land in the heartland, and Big Ag which only cares about profit, has caused livestock to become an environmental problem. But livestock themselves is not a problem.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/actually-raising-beef-is-good-for-the-planet-1419030738

 

I'm low income, but at least 3/4th of the meat I eat is grass or pasture-raised. Sometimes it's local. If you make a commitment to it, it can be done.

 

WAP/Paleo also advocates grass and pasture-raised meat. Honestly, the vegan scaremongering about all meat pisses me off. Meat is nutritious and calorically dense. The anti-meat message is going global, and it really hurts those who still practice traditional livestock grazing and have food instability. And those traditional gazing practices are not hurting the planet at all, they are sometimes critical to the overall agriculture. 

 

Veganism is a conceit of the western world. Shall I go into how many bugs die every year due to raising vegetables? Even in an organic farm? Did you know that scientists are getting worried about the status of the insect population? If you really want to help the planet with your plate, consider the entire system of agriculture and put your food dollars to the system which respects the health of the whole planet, animals, plants, humans, and insects. 

 

If you watch the documentary, much of the environmental harm occurs whether you're eating factory farmed beef or grass-fed beef. Grass-fed cows still produce massive amounts of methane. They still require huge amounts of water. They still take up a ton of land that could produce much, much more food if it was used to grow produce for humans to eat. Grazing cattle on marginal lands may have worked at one point, but that's not going to be possible again unless everyone drastically cuts back on meat consumption. 

 

Is grass-fed beef nutritious? Of course it is. Is that nutrition worth the cost of producing it? That I'm not so sure about. I still have a lot of research to do, but more and more I'm starting to think that for me, it would be better from a health and an ethics viewpoint to go vegetarian, or at the very least to eat meat only occasionally, instead of every day. Even if you don't think grass-fed beef is a problem, it's hard to make the argument that most Americans need as much meat as we consume.

[Ausmumof3]

I haven't watched the video but the argument that crops are more efficient than grazing for food production annoys me. Most of the meat producing country in Aus is totally unsuitable for cropping that is why it is good for meat production. Secondly areas that are used for cropping require culls of native animals regularly to protect the crops so if you think less animals are killed by not eating meat you are naive.

 

What I do believe should change is the fact that people only want beef or chicken. Many other kinds of meat can be produced more sustainably. Also it would be great to see a change towards more small scale local production as it is far less stressful for animals etc.

[Mergath]

I haven't watched the video but the argument that crops are more efficient than grazing for food production annoys me. Most of the meat producing country in Aus is totally unsuitable for cropping that is why it is good for meat production. Secondly areas that are used for cropping require culls of native animals regularly to protect the crops so if you think less animals are killed by not eating meat you are naive.

 

What I do believe should change is the fact that people only want beef or chicken. Many other kinds of meat can be produced more sustainably. Also it would be great to see a change towards more small scale local production as it is far less stressful for animals etc.

 

That was one of the arguments made in the doc- that you should eat what your local environment is suited to producing. I think it was in reference to Brazil, that if you have to destroy a rain forest to raise cattle, you probably just shouldn't eat beef. If you have a lot of land that's perfect for grazing cattle and not much else, it would be silly to tell you that you shouldn't raise cattle on it. 

[Julie Smith]

I have never seen the documentary, but I think it likely covers the same information as this webpage.

 

http://www.vegetarismus.ch/info/eoeko.htm

[fraidycat]

Big-agra is crap-tastic for sure. All big business is. Our economy revolves around it, though. So it isn't going to change any time soon.

 

Eating vegetarian does nothing to save people from shitty working conditions and exploitation. Vegetables have to be harvested. If anyone believes that it is better on humanity, I might have a bridge for sale.

 

Soy is bad news.

 

Legumes and grains poke holes in guts.

 

The amount of veggies required to meet caloric and nutritional needs AND satiate a person is not sustainable nor affordable if you remove the above "replacer" components.

 

I'll eat my pastured meat, thanks. I'm all for getting rid of big business and feed lots, and going back to small farmer, sustainably raised.

 

Maybe we need to get out of cities? Paving everything in sight and taking wild land away from animals does nothing helpful for the environment. Stop using so much electricity and quit killing all the birds with the wind farms? Ban non-green cleaning products? Go back to outhouses and stop wasting perfectly good water on our bodily waste?

 

IOW, there is not one thing that can be changed to make things better. MANY things need to change if we want to stop being TERRA-rists pillaging our planet beyond repair.

[Ausmumof3]

Big-agra is crap-tastic for sure. All big business is. Our economy revolves around it, though. So it isn't going to change any time soon.

 

Eating vegetarian does nothing to save people from shitty working conditions and exploitation. Vegetables have to be harvested. If anyone believes that it is better on humanity, I might have a bridge for sale.

 

Soy is bad news.

 

Legumes and grains poke holes in guts.

 

The amount of veggies required to meet caloric and nutritional needs AND satiate a person is not sustainable nor affordable if you remove the above "replacer" components.

 

I'll eat my pastured meat, thanks. I'm all for getting rid of big business and feed lots, and going back to small farmer, sustainably raised.

 

Maybe we need to get out of cities? Paving everything in sight and taking wild land away from animals does nothing helpful for the environment. Stop using so much electricity and quit killing all the birds with the wind farms? Ban non-green cleaning products? Go back to outhouses and stop wasting perfectly good water on our bodily waste?

 

IOW, there is not one thing that can be changed to make things better. MANY things need to change if we want to stop being TERRA-rists pillaging our planet beyond repair.

Interestingly a recent study showed that in some areas big cities actually have more biodiversity than big farms as people have a huge variety of plants in the garden some of the friendly to native species. Whereas big farms only have one!

[Rosie_0801]

 

 

Legumes and grains poke holes in guts.

 

Or maybe they don't if they are treated properly.

 

Bleaching and ramming them full of hydrogenated oils sure isn't proper treatment.

[Mergath]

Big-agra is crap-tastic for sure. All big business is. Our economy revolves around it, though. So it isn't going to change any time soon.

 

Eating vegetarian does nothing to save people from shitty working conditions and exploitation. Vegetables have to be harvested. If anyone believes that it is better on humanity, I might have a bridge for sale.

 

Soy is bad news.

 

Legumes and grains poke holes in guts.

 

The amount of veggies required to meet caloric and nutritional needs AND satiate a person is not sustainable nor affordable if you remove the above "replacer" components.

 

I'll eat my pastured meat, thanks. I'm all for getting rid of big business and feed lots, and going back to small farmer, sustainably raised.

 

Maybe we need to get out of cities? Paving everything in sight and taking wild land away from animals does nothing helpful for the environment. Stop using so much electricity and quit killing all the birds with the wind farms? Ban non-green cleaning products? Go back to outhouses and stop wasting perfectly good water on our bodily waste?

 

IOW, there is not one thing that can be changed to make things better. MANY things need to change if we want to stop being TERRA-rists pillaging our planet beyond repair.

 

I don't know if pavement is the problem- only three percent of land in the US is developed. Over forty percent is being used as grazing land. https://www.westernwatersheds.org/watmess/watmess_2002/2002html_summer/article6.htm

 

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/america-land-cattle-grazing/

[Ausmumof3]

Forgive me ignorance but didn't us have large prairie areas and buffalo before white people? How would that compare to the current grazing situation?

[Aelwydd]

Veganism is a conceit of the western world.

 

I don't know much about the history of veganism. I do know that the Indian cuisine my DH makes for us is based upon the Hindu lacto-vegetarian diet, which permits milk, but no eggs or meat. That certainly is not a modern or western contrivance.

 

Frankly, after having Thai and Indian cruisine as the basis of our diet, most other cuisines are very bland by comparison. American cuisine typically depends on meat, not spices, for flavor. We don't miss meat, although I definitely would miss dairy and eggs.

 

DH is more interested in becoming vegan, mostly because he has had malignant hypertension and high LDL in the past. Since he gave up meat, his blood work has drastically improved.

[fraidycat]

I live in the newest and furthest reaches of a large city, literally on the edge of a wildlife preserve. Five to ten years ago the spot my house is now was 5 miles "out into the wilderness". It's all pavement and cement and 20ish toilets per building now. There are a LOT of buildings with more still being built.

 

So 5 miles x 10ish miles of what was very recently wild-land. There were animals here that are no longer "welcome", thanks to us. It's heat-trapping pavement, swimming pools and 20 sq. ft "greenscapes" dotted here and there between buildings.

[Aelwydd]

Forgive me ignorance but didn't us have large prairie areas and buffalo before white people? How would that compare to the current grazing situation?

Of course. But now we have millions of Americans, in a landscape carved up by cities, spawling suburbs, industry, and monoculture farming . We have (barely) enough water and land for that, or for millions of buffalo, but not both.

[Jasperstone]

That was one of the arguments made in the doc- that you should eat what your local environment is suited to producing. I think it was in reference to Brazil, that if you have to destroy a rain forest to raise cattle, you probably just shouldn't eat beef. If you have a lot of land that's perfect for grazing cattle and not much else, it would be silly to tell you that you shouldn't raise cattle on it.

Ahhhh. .... can't imagine eating Skippy!

 

If I had to, then I'd become a vegetarian again. Though B 12 is a huge problem for me.

 

I don't think fecal matter injected into the bloodstream is the answer either- if that's truly what it's made from.

[Jasperstone]

https://healthfree.com/view_newsletter.php?id=50&key=b

 

 

According to this ↑↑↑↑, it is. Yuk!

[fraidycat]

Interestingly a recent study showed that in some areas big cities actually have more biodiversity than big farms as people have a huge variety of plants in the garden some of the friendly to native species. Whereas big farms only have one!

Hence, part of the reason for my opinion that big-agra is not good. They are no better for the land/environment than grazing animals. Guaranteed.

 

I've actually seen it with my own eyes, as I am originally from a grain producing area and my family is still there. The land is far from healthy. Biodiversity is not welcome. Higher yields for more money is the name of the game. Accomplished via more and more chemicals to "fertilize" and kill weeds.

 

Just make sure you wear proper hazmat equipment while handling because it's deadly. /sarcasm

[Mergath]

Of course. But now we have millions of Americans, in a landscape carved up by cities, spawling suburbs, industry, and monoculture farming . We have (barely) enough water and land for that, or for millions of buffalo, but not both.

 

Not to mention that the population of buffalo at its peak was something like fifty million in all of North America. Right now we have just under ninety million cattle in the US alone, and apparently that's a low number. It used to be more. And it looks like cows produce a lot more methane than buffalo, too.

[Mergath]

Hence, part of the reason my opinion that big-agra is not good. They are no better for the land/environment than grazing animals. Guaranteed.

 

Though a good chunk of the crops grown are used as feed for cattle. Reduce the number of cattle, and that will reduce the number of acres we use to grow corn for cattle feed.

 

No matter what I look up, it always seems to come back to beef being the root cause of the problems. Which makes me sad, because I really like beef. I had just found a recipe on pinterest for bacon-wrapped mozzarella-stuffed meatloaf. It looked amazing. :(