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Are you really a Christian? ... interesting article


Luanne
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Okay, I know several folks mentioned how "academic" the writing of this "article" is, but what it reminded me of most strongly was the Dr. Bronner's soap labels. I couldn't get through more than a few pages, even just skimming.

 

So, this one person takes it upon himself to write his opinions about the Bible and Christianity, and we're supposed to find it "interesting," let alone definitive?

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they should be the kind you think of when you think of Christians.  not the trumpeting types 

 

 

Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them."

 

 

Despite her trolling, I think a lot more highly of Christians than the rotten fruit falling from Luanne.

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Last hijack. I changed my avatar. Maybe Mommaduck will object still but I can't see how the Catholic church gets to own the pascal lamb symbol. It's even the emblem on Shane Clabourne's book, "Jesus for President." He's definitely not Catholic.

 

Meh. I don't see how the author of this tract gets to "own" christianity. 

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I'm going to jump into the fray here and go out on a limb. I agree 100% with this tract. I also want to say that all you commenting on how this sounds like a college paper are wrong. I actually personally know the author of this tract. We lived in close Christian community with him and his family. He has never been to college. In his teens he was a rich, pot smoking, surfer. He repented of this and went to a YWAM. Next he became a Calvary Chapel pastor but then grew convicted about his own lifestyle and started to preach that we ought to strive for righteousness. He now lives in community with several other families in OR. Our family would love to move there and join them but can't because of immigration issues. The tract is found through this site: www.walklikechrist.com . I personally know the man that made this site and some of the tracts and sermons on the site are produced by my own husband (Joel Mawhorter). I can assure you that you won't get a virus from any of the downloads.

 

Editted to add: Scott Schones (the author) is the most joyful person that I know. I told my dc that some of you thought that Scott that sounded joyless and they laughed and laughed. He is always singing and happy. Moody or joylessness is NOT Scott's weakness.

 

1.) Someone who says it sounds like a college paper to them are not "wrong" - they are simply expressing an opinion of the piece.  You may know the background of the author but it doesn't change how it sounds to others.  To me it came off as pretentious and not particularly well written (as in I believe it is unlikely to have the effect the author intended on those not already predisposed to his beliefs).

 

2.) Again, if the author comes across to some some as moody and joyless, that is again just expressing their opinions based on their knowledge of him.  They could possibly meet him in person and decide they were wrong...or they may determine that they were correct and think that you and your children are wrong.

 

When someone takes on the task of expressing themselves in writing, the insight of those that know the author personally can be helpful, but that insight does not automatically invalidate the opinions of the readers.

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Wow, nice slam. You misread what I wrote though. It's not MY objection and I never said that the Catholic Church OWNED it (however, they did create it). Please go back and reread what I wrote.

 

 

 

 

Given that the people listed on the site are extremely anti-Catholic/anti-Liturgical and given that most people I know that push Bercot's books are very iconoclastic, I would be given to think that you would not want that connection. However, the decision is obviously yours. I was actually trying to be very kind in my post about it. No snark, no "you can't do this". I simply gave you the background.

I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to offend you. I really can be dense sometimes. I can see what you were trying to say.

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Meh. I don't see how the author of this tract gets to "own" christianity. 

 

Oh goodness, whatever you do don't 'Meh' on the OP's thread. She'll label you a moral degenerate. 

 

 

On the other hand, I could use the company.   :coolgleamA:

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He lost me at the preface (and no, not at the misspelling of "bear" although that was humorous). 

 

One of the marks of true wisdom is that a person remains teachable their entire life.

 

I assume he means I still need to be taught (because I'm not a real Christian), although he's apparently safe on the other side because he's writing books to teach those that should remain teachable.  I don't know the man; maybe he is sincerely teachable still. But in the first 10 lines of the premise of his book, he's coming across as a bit arrogant (in other words, unteachable) and that contradiction right there will lose a lot of the readers he's trying to reach.  (Who don't really need to be reached the way he's reaching out to them, but I digress.)

 

Something Rosie said in another thread the other day really stuck with me.

 

The first thing seems to be to avoid creating a fiction with the false premise that you are a top bloke (or sheila) when you're very much not.

 

Words to live by. 

 

 

 

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Luanne, this is how *I* know. It's personal. It's not following someone's point by point paper. Others have their beliefs and views; I refuse to sit on God's Throne and declare some for heaven and others for hell. That is above my paygrade (and honestly, I believe it's above the paygrade of the person writing the paper). 

 

I loved that video mommaduck, thanks so much for the link. There are not really any orthodox churches with english sermons in my area I can go to (most of the few that exist are foreign language), but I am finding I agree with a lot of what you Orthodox posters have to say and you have led me to re-consider many of the beliefs I grew up with. I consider myself non-denominational so I guess I can believe the same things without the label. 

 

I get what the person writing the article is saying, and I get what Luanne is saying, and I actually agree with the boiled down essence of what they're trying to say. Modern lukewarm christianity is quite happy to say 'yes I'm saved' on a sunday, and go on living life without even thinking of Christ the rest of the week. They're happy to say 'I believe in the bible' on a sunday, and then go home to actions and lives the bible calls sinful and feel no remorse because they're 'saved by grace' during the week (of course we all fall short, we all sin, it's the 'no remorse' part I am emphasizing here). I also agree that if we have truly accepted Christ then it will be shown in our fruits and we will have no choice but to begin to change our lives and live for him, that faith shows itself through works and, while we can in no way earn our salvation, people who live for the Lord will walk in his ways by nature of what real salvation is. Someone who truly loves God will want to try and live by his commands, even while they will fail many times over, because that's what loving God means, 

 

But, this is NOT the way to communicate this message, neither it's wording/tone, or it's method of delivery. The article was entirely judgemental, leaving no room for grace at all. Many Christians judged me early in my Christian journey because I was still doing obviously sinful things, without realizing those sinful things were a whole lot LESS sinful than where I began! It's a journey, not an event! But I believe if I had died back then my place in heaven was assured, because God knew my heart and my attitude. The point is an attitude of living for the Lord, of seeking Him in every decision, not a checklist of proofs that you have 'made it' to salvation. Faith without works is dead, but the works expected of a middle class adult-child of a Christian family are likely very different to those expected of a homeless drug addicted prostitute who just found Christ. God knows our hearts, our attitudes, our minds.

 

I think people who remorselessly continue to sin, or choose to sin knowingly despite claiming the name of Jesus, are in a bad place and may possibly not have salvation despite believing in Jesus (even Satan 'believes in' Jesus), because they are not following him. But I try to witness to them through my actions and my life, not by beating them over the head with rules. Checklists of what we need to do to get to heaven are definitely not part of the deal, because we will ALL fall short, NONE of us are sinless, even after we are saved. And giving an article to a bunch of strangers is going to change nobody, and possibly turn many further away from the truth. Talking to people you have built relationships with, preaching it from the pulpit to people who are open to listen, yes. But preaching to a bunch of strangers from diverse backgrounds and cultures in an arrogant and judgemental way? nope, doubt you've influenced anyone here. Ultimately, you can't reach anyone who isn't already open and listening. and if they are open and listening they will also be looking themselves and will be observing you, as I have been observing the orthodox posters on the forum in recent months. Without any preaching or judgment I have come to consider some of my ideas by seeing how they live out their faith.

 

I'm writing all this not to debate with anyone but to try and explain to Luanne how she can be a more effective witness through actions and relationships than through judgmental preaching, perhaps a wasted effort but I have to try heh. 

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I'm not looking for a reaction.  I am seriously concerned about the people in the world in general who think they are a Christian and yet know nothing about the Bible or what it truly says.  ...

 

 

But dear, the Bible says that only God can know the heart of any man, and that only God can stand in judgment.  Further, the Bible sets forth only one requirement for salvation and it takes about 2 lines- not 25 pages.  Jesus himself told us that if anyone, even He, came forward to claim that more was required they were not to believed.  I would be more concerned about the one who caused others to doubt their faith than about those who having accepted Christ fail to meet the author's standards. 

 

I hope this also answers the question of posted upthread as to why some of us can immediately say we won't read a document titled "Are you really a Christian?"  It is simply not in the authority of the author to ask such a question nor to provide the answer. 

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they should be the kind you think of when you think of Christians.  not the trumpeting types 

 

Wait a minute. Xians can decide for themselves what "real xianity" is... except for people like Luanne? Her xianity doesn't count?

 

Why shouldn't someone like me think of the trumpeting type? They've been representing xianity far longer than the liberal type. They've got perfectly sound support in their book. Their theology is every bit as sound as anyone else's. 

 

What is it about the trumpeting xian that makes it not "real xianity," and by what method is this determined? 

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