lack of remorse in 8-year-old boy?

[fdrinca]

A vent, and advice requested:

 

DS8 has never really shown remorse or guilt, even as a small child. Playing the "getting your kid to apologize" routine with him has always been a challenge. We model apologies, we apologize sincerely, but he refuses to show the level of remorse or guilt that I'd associate with a healthy range of emotions.

 

My other three children do demonstrate this ability to recognize they've done something wrong or made a mistake, and their instinct is to apologize. Sincerely apologize, not a knee-jerk "sorry." 

 

He also tends to cheat in games and physical contests, lie about petty things (brushing teeth, passing gas, eating treats), and shirk responsibilities. As the oldest, his personality dominates the play in the family, and it's not very generous.

 

I love him, but I increasingly dislike spending time with him. Moreover, his antagonizing ways exacerbate DS4's ASD, and between the two (and a two year old) my patience is frayed. I'm not able to contain my frustration with him as well as I'd like, so we spend this wasted time as a grumpy, snippy, unhappy family.

 

On a lark I googled "antisocial disorder in children" to see if it fits him, and the conditions listed (for conduct disorder, the more age-appropriate diagnosis) seemed to be far more outwardly-oriented than his actions now. He's not lighting fires or destroying property, although he does dissect backyard insects. No physical violence, just this very self-centered approach to life. 

 

So, advice:

Is my kid just a jerk? (I don't really mean this. I don't think.)

Any BTDT? 

How can I more effectively isolate his attitude from the rest of the family? Or is that even a reasonable goal? We've worked on his attitude, but to no effect as yet. I would like to reclaim the cheerfulness of our family, and keep the little kids from feeling too overly stressed by the arguments and the tension they generate between DH and myself.

 

Thanks!

[zoobie]

I would seek professional assistance. Your child, you, and your family are negatively impacted by his behavior. Early intervention in some personality issues/conduct disorders can be very helpful.

 

Have you looked into ODD? Not that a Google psych diagnosis is sufficient, but just another thing to read about on your path.

[Farrar]

I don't think anything you're describing seems way out of line for that age. Eight year olds are just... Well, there's a reason they made the kids on South Park 8 yos.

 

I think you likely got lucky with your others in terms of remorse. I'd keep working on it. I wouldn't demand apologies - I think it makes it worse when they're insincere. I'd try to play more cooperative games. I'd separate the kids when you can. I'd try to find opportunities for him to do good for others - maybe a volunteer opportunity?

 

Of course, if your gut says something is wrong, you can seek an evaluation or go see a therapist. Follow that instinct.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's not over the top.  It sounds challenging though. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would try to focus more on catching him doing things right and praising that instead of trying to get him to express remorse for what he does wrong.  

[catz]

I would seek evaluation for those types of behavioral issues if they seem that out of line to you.  Worst case they'll say it's the range of normal.  I do agree that sincere apologies out of a 2 and 4 year old would actually be unusual IMO. 

 

I don't know if any of the following will apply to your family so I'm just going to throw it out there from personal experience and you can feel free to ignore.  I would gently say that he is the oldest of 4, with one having special needs and another on the way.  That can be a hard role for a little boy.  8 is still pretty little.  I would try to make sure both your and your DH are attempting to connect with him in positive ways as an individual as you walk this path and not make the vast majority of your interactions negative or correction.  I would not be pushing him to be the big kid.  Whether or not he gets a diagnosis and ongoing treatment for something, it is important that he feels loved.  

 

The best advice someone ever gave me when dealing with a group of kids (I used to do daycare and have 2 kids almost 4 years apart) was to average the ages of the kids and demand that age level behavoir from the entire group.  Don't single out the big kid or baby the little.  It's much less likely to create an environment of competition or resentment. 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

My asd son had some of these things.

 

We treat with a naturopath. He's done swimming in the past and is now in martial arts. Both have helped him developmentally and with appropriate behavior.

He's also had a social groups class.

[Kim in Appalachia]

He sounds like a handful, but he also sounds "normal".  He wants to win (at games, contests), he doesn't like to admit he's wrong, and he trying to see what he can get away with. That sounds like an 8 year old. 

 

:grouphug:  4 young ones and one on the way is a lot.  

 

 

[Momling]

I agree -- if you really think something is wrong, talk to a psychologist or other mental health professional... but it's probably within the realm of normal emotional development and not pathological.  I'm not a fan of necessarily insisting young kids say sorry, because I think it's kind of insincere.

One thing I do with foster kids who seem to be lacking in the empathy department is to be on the lookout for situations that we can talk about.  Like, if we're reading a book and something happens to a character or if somebody gets hurt at the park or I hear about something that happened at school, I might ask "how do you think he feels about that?" or "Gosh -- how would you feel if that happened to you?" or "I wonder why somebody might scream so angrily like that...?"  I'm no trained professional, but I figure that some kids might need more help in realizing that other people have feelings and understanding that there are reasons why people behave in certain ways. 

 

Also, I've had kids who attend a psych day treatment program and I know among other things, they often play games...  Maybe you can find a therapeutic board game intended to help develop empathy?

[Caribbean Queen]

DS8 has never really shown remorse or guilt, even as a small child.

 

He also tends to cheat in games and physical contests, lie about petty things (brushing teeth, passing gas, eating treats), and shirk responsibilities. 

How can I more effectively isolate his attitude from the rest of the family? Or is that even a reasonable goal?

 

It is not normal for an 8 year old to have never shown remorse.

 

A lot of 8 year olds cheat, lie and shirk responsibilities.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "isolate his attitude from the rest of the family."  I should think your goal would be to have him to have a good attitude, play fairly, tell the truth, and take care of his responsibilities. 

 

I don't tell my kids to do something unless I can remember to check that it got done.  "You can't expect what you don't inspect."  No shirking responsibilities here.  One of mine used to lie about petty stuff and we called him on it every lie.  We also wouldn't take his word for anything since he lied so much.  He hated that, and stopped the lies. 

[Storygirl]

Many of those behaviors can be present in children with ADHD. Even if you don't think that could be the cause, because he doesn't present as hyper, it is still possible. There are also inattentive and impulsive subtypes. I would raise these issues with your pediatrician. Make an appointment just to discuss these behavior issues instead of bringing it up at a regular checkup. If it is impacting your family life, it is worth consulting with a professional.

 

 

[Caribbean Queen]

 Moreover, his antagonizing ways exacerbate DS4's ASD, and between the two (and a two year old) my patience is frayed. I'm not able to contain my frustration with him as well as I'd like, so we spend this wasted time as a grumpy, snippy, unhappy family.

 

 

 

Do fun stuff together.  Kick a soccer ball.  Play Uno. 

Have quiet time in the middle of the day.  Your 8 year old doesn't need to nap.  He can read.  Make it totally quiet.   Even 20 minutes will be refreshing for you.

If he likes, let him play alone.  Block the others out with a baby gate or closed door.  Or maybe he can play in your yard while the others are inside sometimes.

fdrinca, quit work at a certain hour.  No more chores.  Any dirty dishes go in the fridge because you won't wash them.  Everybody needs breaks.

 

These things cut down on grumpiness.

[unsinkable]

Does he feel sympathy or show tenderness or sadness to others or animals in ANY situations? If other kids are crying, does he try to comfort them or show he cares?

 

If he hears a story of a hurt animal, does he feel badly?

 

Gently, I'd be worried based on what you've written and I'd reach out to professionals (child psychologist) for a consult.

 

I have seen some kids who don't show remorse as they get older bc of a combo of perfectionism and embarrassment, at first, but then eventually they do show remorse.

 

:grouphug:

[texasmama]

Whenever I read these threads, I always think that it could be within the range of normal or it could be that there is a diagnosable condition, even if it just ends up being ADHD. I would need to meet and evaluate this child face to face to say for sure.

 

With one ASD child in the family, it is likely that there may be others in the sibling group. Same with ADHD. And those two conditions often occur together or separately among siblings.

 

So, since you are concerned, I think you should take your son for an evaluation with a therapist who specializes in children. Then you will get some feedback about whether or not his behaviors are within the norm.

 

FWIW, none of my kids ever "went through a phase" like this. My ASD kid is unfailingly honest.

[jewellsmommy]

This can be hard to evaluate from just a few examples. It could go either way. So, if you see a significant difference between your little guy and other boys in his age range, then do NOT ignore that. If you felt the need to ask here, then there a reason to take the next step.

 

I know all too well what you are worried about and the sooner you get help (if this is outside of the norm) the better you may be able to deal with it. At 8 he would likely be given the diagnosis ODD. Typically, conduct disorder is 12ish to late teen and then Antisocial PD is late teen and up. But, at 8 you have time to intervene and possibly prevent those later labels. And, of course, it may be that he is not out of the norm, and he just a little more difficult to parent. Even then, a professional may be handy for some guidance. The best of luck to you. :grouphug: 

[fdrinca]

Thank you for your feedback. I really appreciate the gentleness. I admit I wrote my post in post-conflict hormone angst.

 

- My son can be so, so sweet with other small children. He likes to take care of them (example: pushing kids on swings). He also knows appropriate emotions (example: crying at Pixar movies). 

 

- My expectations for him probably aren't developmentally appropriate. I keep forgetting how small 8 is, especially as he's the oldest of our family and seems so capable. 

 

- I wouldn't be surprised at an ADHD diagnosis. The correlations between these behaviors are interesting, and a good place to start with the ped. 

 

- Unsinkable, you mentioned the combination of "embarrassment and perfectionism" - I could see that. 

 

We've been doing so much therapy and diagnosis with DS4 that the thought of starting again feels exhausting. But, at the same time, the weekly tension in our family is far more exhausting.

[fdrinca]

I should add that family tension aside, the reason I'm concerned is that I can see how this behavior could be socially isolating for him as he grows up. I'd like him to have fulfilling interpersonal relationships, but his attitude seems to put up a wall between himself and others. I don't see sociopathic behavior! but I do see how self-centeredness makes it hard to have real friends. But then again, being self-centered probably is an evolutionary trait of being 8, right?

[Guest]

He sounds like he is having a jerk phase. Some kids are way more prone to them, and for a lot longer periods of time. It's probably normal but that doesn't mean a professional might not be able to help. For us it's been having the child in question grow out of if, nothing else really worked.

 

What *didnt* work was me getting fed up or frustrated and giving the kid a 'reason' to feel self righteous.

[zoobie]

Thank you for your feedback. I really appreciate the gentleness. I admit I wrote my post in post-conflict hormone angst.

 

- My son can be so, so sweet with other small children. He likes to take care of them (example: pushing kids on swings). He also knows appropriate emotions (example: crying at Pixar movies).

 

- My expectations for him probably aren't developmentally appropriate. I keep forgetting how small 8 is, especially as he's the oldest of our family and seems so capable.

 

- I wouldn't be surprised at an ADHD diagnosis. The correlations between these behaviors are interesting, and a good place to start with the ped.

 

- Unsinkable, you mentioned the combination of "embarrassment and perfectionism" - I could see that.

 

We've been doing so much therapy and diagnosis with DS4 that the thought of starting again feels exhausting. But, at the same time, the weekly tension in our family is far more exhausting.

He very well may be in the range of "normal," but if you are stressed that often, go talk to someone. Maybe you need different tools in your toolbox for dealing with a challenging personality. I have done grad school in child development, and we have sought assistance for dealing with one of mine. That's what the pros are for! :)

 

"Normal" in quotes because who knows what that is exactly. ;)

[Chris in VA]

Just wanted to give you a :grouphug: .

 

I remember those years, and sometimes they were hard. We were always trying to figure out our kids. There was so much angst and upset in me--I was dealing with ASD but no one knew that was the diagnosis. Later, there was mental illness and other things, and we didn't recognize stuff early. I just knew something was off, and I knew we weren't experiencing the joy I thought we had a right to.

 

So, I guess I just want to say, hang in there, and if you are going to do some research or look for answers, do it with support, because all the info can be overwhelming.

 

Here's to more happiness and contentment in your family. :grouphug:

[albeto.]

Just a thought to consider, but...

 

never showing remorse should not be confused with never feeling it.

 

:grouphug:

 

Some of our kids simply cannot articulate what they feel. Heck, some of our kids can't articulate it to themselves. How can they share what they can't quite identify?

 

I'd suggest you find a play therapist. At the very least, they'll help your child gain the skills he'll need to identify and articulate his feelings. This will help his interpersonal relationships as well. 

 

[Farrar]

I think the thing from your OP that makesme wonder if your expectations are on track is saying that he never showed remorse "even as a small child." The thing is, young children are by nature selfish for the most part. Remorse and empathy develop as they gain autonomy and see that others' needs and emotions are not the same as theirs.

 

From your second post, I really think he sounds like a normal kid who is putting you through tough times. If you seek therapy, it doesn't have to be the rigmarole that it was for your ASD child - it can just be calling up a therapist to get some short term help and arming you with more tools for dealing with this behavior.