hit a wall in SM3A

[mamamindy]

Hello.  Everyone else has received such great math advice, I'm going to ask for some. ;-)

 

My 8yo DD was chugging along fine, but we've hit some bumps near the end of Unit 3 in Singapore Primary Math 3A, we're in the review section.  (We're using Standards Edition, if that matters.)  It seems as though she's having trouble with division of large numbers and sometimes multiplication with large numbers.  It seemed to me like we were going along fine with smaller digit multiplication and division, and suddenly we have these huge numbers and algorithms, and it's just overwhelming to her.  I know she doesn't completely understand the algorithm yet, and we don't always use it.  It's more important to me that she understand what's really going on with the numbers anyway...but the numbers are getting on the larger side to use manipulatives easily, kwim?  In my gut, I don't really feel like she's ready to move on in the book until she has a better understanding of multiplication and division.  The unit following introduces the math tables for 6,7,8, & 9.  I am not looking to change curriculum, as we both like Singapore Math.  I am just not sure what to do in the meantime...

 

We've been working through a SM Intensive Practice book that's a year behind, to give her some confidence (she needs some, because this perfectionist girl really loses heart when she can't "get" something and shuts down) but it's pretty easy for her.  I've also had her working on her math facts using Wrap-ups.  I'm wondering if there's anything out there that may present these concepts a little differently than SM and may have follow up worksheets for practice?  (She LOVES her math WB and has missed it...weird, I know.)  Then maybe we could return to SM when she's had a chance to gain more understanding and maturity...

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you may have for me!

[matrips]

Maybe working with estimating for awhile for make sure she has number sense? Also a very good thing to teach and know!

 

So instead of big numbers with crazy digits, use big numbers with easily divisible numbers or easy to multiply numbers. Like instead of 54,243 x 435 use 50,000 x 300 or 2,222 x 33. That sort of thing.

[Miss Tick]

Maybe the appropriate MM book? It would re-present the topic with problems for practice. I think the individual books are inexpensive.

[sweetpea3829]

Is this multiple digit multiplication by single digit?  If so, does she know her multiplication facts really well?  If not, I'd start there.  

 

I love Singapore but I didn't love how they presented multiplication.  Not the way they teach it, but that they introduced multiple digit multiplication BEFORE having the students master ALL of their facts tables.  Last year, I happened to look ahead in DS's 3rd grade book and noticed this...so I spent time last summer having him memorize all of the multiplication tables.  I think it really helped.  

 

That said...DS did struggle a bit with learning the division algorithm.  We pulled it up on Khan Academy and that helped.  

[Ms.Ivy]

There are some videos on Education Unboxed that I found helpful when we hit this spot in 3A.  I also pulled some worksheet from Math Mammoth.  But one of the most helpful things for us has been to use graph paper to work the problems, and just lots of practice.

Here's one of the Education Unboxed videos/
 

[kateingr]

Math Mammoth uses an grid model (arrays of squares) to model multi-digit multiplication, rather than the place-value disks that Singapore uses. I personally find it a lot more intuitive and visual...perhaps your daughter would as well? MM's Blue series multiplication 2 only costs about five dollars and goes all the way through two-digit times three-digit problems.

 

I agree, throwing multi-digit multiplication and division at kids all at once in third grade is asking a lot (and a full year ahead of most other curricula). Slowing down to help your daughter really cement it makes a lot of sense.

[swainsonshawk]

I have taught Singapore math 3A for 4 different kids and I've got 2 more coming up.  My first piece of advice is to take a break and do something else for a while.  Perhaps with a MM section?  Or take a bit and review clocks or skip to the geometry or measurement sections of the book.  There is something gained sometimes from waiting for maturity/understanding.

 

But also, some of the understanding can come later.  On some level I am okay with just learning the algorithims for long multiplication and division and not worrying about "what it all means."  I know that my daughter has a lot of time with me to understand what exactly she is doing.

 

Not all of my kids needed to understand the "why" before they started the algorithm.  Some of them were very frustrated and just wanted to know what to do and never even retained all of my careful manipulative demonstrations that I carried out before and during the lessons.  They were focused on the what to do, and now that they understand the what, they are more receptive to the why behind it all. Depends on the kid!

 

[Love_to_Read]

We hit a similar snag in 3A.  I noticed it behaviorally first, that something was off...trying to do multi-digit multiplication and division is stressful when you haven't even mastered the times tables!

 

What we did to get through it:

• I made a cheat sheet for each fact family, using a page protector and dry erase marker. That way, my child could still get some practice by filling in the answers periodically, but could mostly just look them up while focusing on how to do each of the large problems.
• We broke out the base ten blocks.  We have the Math-U-See blocks from a sibling, so red hundreds, blue tens, green ones. We didn't have quite enough base ten blocks to do the big problems, so I had to sub some smaller problems (2's, 3's, 4's) to get the hang of it during teaching sessions, then we switched to poker chips with the same colors.  If we didn't have them, I'd probably have opted to print enough base ten on colored paper/cardstock.  We've actually done that before for thousands.
• We did the problems with manipulatives until he knew the steps automatically, prompting him toward doing the same steps as the standard algorithm and talking through it clearly.  Then we connected that to the written steps AFTER he had the gist of it. .
• I made colored graph paper with a table in our word processor...green column for ones, blue column for tens, red for hundreds, a few extra white columns to write the symbols and such. 

We're still going to have to do some fact practice over the summer before we start 4A, but we survived.  3B is like a breath of fresh air by comparison.

[Lucy the Valiant]

We stopped there, too, and drilled multiplication / division facts until we were all comfortable to go forward. In hindsight, it was time well spent. We love Singapore, but they really don't "waste time" with a lot of repetitive drills (that some kids really benefit from).

[Love_to_Read]

We're going to try Making Friends With Numbers as a workbook to reinforce math facts, and Times Tales as a multimedia approach. Not sure if either one gets to the multi-digit algorithms, but both look like a different approach to getting those down solid.

[Alessandra]

We hit a similar snag in 3A. I noticed it behaviorally first, that something was off...trying to do multi-digit multiplication and division is stressful when you haven't even mastered the times tables!

 

What we did to get through it:

• I made a cheat sheet for each fact family, using a page protector and dry erase marker. That way, my child could still get some practice by filling in the answers periodically, but could mostly just look them up while focusing on how to do each of the large problems.
• We broke out the base ten blocks. We have the Math-U-See blocks from a sibling, so red hundreds, blue tens, green ones. We didn't have quite enough base ten blocks to do the big problems, so I had to sub some smaller problems (2's, 3's, 4's) to get the hang of it during teaching sessions, then we switched to poker chips with the same colors. If we didn't have them, I'd probably have opted to print enough base ten on colored paper/cardstock. We've actually done that before for thousands.
• We did the problems with manipulatives until he knew the steps automatically, prompting him toward doing the same steps as the standard algorithm and talking through it clearly. Then we connected that to the written steps AFTER he had the gist of it. .
• I made colored graph paper with a table in our word processor...green column for ones, blue column for tens, red for hundreds, a few extra white columns to write the symbols and such.

We're still going to have to do some fact practice over the summer before we start 4A, but we survived. 3B is like a breath of fresh air by comparison.

These are great ideas! We take a similar approach, using manipulatives and visual aids.

 

One book series I like is Visible Thinking in Mathematics. You can find samples on the SM website in the supplements section. RR sells it. VT is a great resource for reinforcing SM concepts.

 

Although I love Math Mammoth, dd found it difficult to transition from SM to MM as a supplement. The approach to math was similar, but the MM pages are much more crowded. You might want to download some free samples or buy a book to see if it is a fit for you before getting the whole set. (However, we do use MM when I want to focus on one skill, such as telling time or measurement.)

[kateingr]

 

One book series I like is Visible Thinking in Mathematics. You can find samples on the SM website in the supplements section. RR sells it. VT is a great resource for reinforcing SM concepts.

 

 

I'd never noticed these before on the SM website--they look fantastic! 

[Alessandra]

I'd never noticed these before on the SM website--they look fantastic!

I would say they are simpler than comparable level of SM, although they cover the same material. Lots of pictures, lots of open space. Great for my dd who needs extra hep. My mathy ds would have hated them, lol.

 

We also like the SM Process Skills books for help with word problems.

[mommy2ella]

When DD was struggling with long multiplication and division problems, I noticed it was (a) the sheer number of them that were on her sheet at once and (b) I was used to her working on her math completely on her own, so just left her to it once she got the basic concept.  Problem was, she was getting distracted in the middle of the problem and having a hard time finding her place again.  What I did was to split up the work so that she was only doing a couple of those types of problems at a time to solve problem a.  For the second issue, I talked to her about what she thought would help and she told me that if I just sat next to her while she worked she could concentrate better.  For the really long ones, she felt better if I watched and told her if she made a mistake in the middle so she could fix it at that point instead of getting all the way through and then coming up with the wrong answer.  That was just discouraging to her.  Now she's back to doing them independently again, but if she's feeling especially distractible and gets one of those problems on a review sheet, she will often ask me to come sit next to her while she does it.  

[Tanikit]

I would teach the multiplication facts first - you can add in skip counting as well. If she is good with her 2 and 3 times tables then you can teach the 6 times table as z x 2 x 3 and show her why it works like that. I know I had to teach my child to draw groups of whatever number she was multiplying by and then show her why 17 x 6 is the same as 7 x 6 + 10 x 6 by being able to group the numbers differently. Once this concept is understood multiplying by big numbers becomes a lot simpler mentally. 

 

Regarding multiplication facts - 2, 3, 5, 7 and 11 times tables are the most important because these are the prime number multiplication facts - the rest you can use other factors to multiply them out. (So x 4 is x 2 and then x 2 again) Naturally knowing them all speeds all calculations, but if there is a problem with memorising all the facts concentrate on these ones first. 

[ForeverFamily]

Like Sweetpea I was a frustrated that they were trying to have kids learn multi digit problems at the same time as trying to learn their multiplication facts.  For us I decided my Dd needed to get her multiplication facts down first, I knew it would make everything else easier.  I had her work her way through Timez Attack which, to my relief, really helped her learn her facts well.  After she had down most of her facts we then proceeded to go through the multiplication and division sections in SM. The concept of long division was still a little hard for my Dd to understand at first but I think not having to think hard about her multiplication facts helped a lot.  Taking some time to work on getting those down (and using parts of BA) put us a bit behind, we just started working through 3B, but I think it was time well spent. 

[Targhee]

I think 3A is where Singapore starts to actually be rigorous - 1 and 2 are great, but nothing that stands out.

 

As far as multiplication models, arrays are a valid explanation. So is groups. So is sets of each. So is scaling, repeated addition, fractals, combinations, skip counting, etc. but all of these are visually limiting when you get to big numbers (hence the place value disks, but you could use centimeter cubes/rods/flats/etc). The concept of multiplication needs to be pretty firm before moving on to using it just symbolically, and with large numbers.

 

So, I would work on seeing multiplication in different ways (like those above) first. Then, more practice with single digit multiplication. I am not one who requires rote mastery of facts at that age - they get a multiplication chart and can use it as needed, and they eventually internalize the facts from using them. I do require that they *get* the concepts before moving on.

 

Have you used EducationUnboxed at all - the videos present solid conceptual understanding using concrete models, and it's fun. Also check out Moebiusnoodles.com. Check out their whole site, but blog post 6 Ways to Collect Multiplication Pictures might be helpful.

 

Have fun! 3A will be there when your student is ready - no rush :-)

[jniter]

Interesting. My son just wrapped up 2B, so this is a good window into what he'll encounter soon.

 

First, a friend from Singapore managed to get me the My Pals are Here math books for 2B, which apparently is more popular in Sinagpore. Also they use Visible Thinking in Mathematics a lot for reinforcement. I was using 4 books and having my son go through 2B really slowly, reinforcing w/MPaH, VTM, Intensive Practice, and Challenging Word Problems. I think the SM expectation is that the child masters the math facts presented in each section, drilling as much as necessary. And while the multiplication facts in Level 2 are only the 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, you're really only missing 6*7, 6*8, 6*9, 7*8, 7*9, 8*8, 8*9, 9*9. The idea is that the child really understands the commutative property from an application stand point.

 

No one in Singapore *only* uses the school issed text and workbook. When my friend went to the bookstore, there was an ENTIRE WALL of *only* elementary math books/workbooks. And it was no small wall, said she. The creator of the VTM series (Ammiel Wan) even has a website and conducts seminars in Singapore for parents on how to tutor their children in math. This is just to give you some context that the gov't mandated curriculum is heavily, heavily supplemented in Singapore.

 

And if anyone is curious, the MPaH is what Math in Focus is supposedly based on...and I do *not* prefer it to the Primary Mathematics series. The books have prettier diagrams, but it has fewer problems and even less word problems than Primary Mathemetics.

 

I think I'll stick w/to not start 3A until his multiplication facts are a little more automatic.

 

Edit: Commutative, not communitative! =P

[momof4babes]

We hit a similar snag going through. She understood the concept of division, but was getting lost going through the bigger questions.

 

I printed out this chart.

http://www.guruparents.com/multiplication-chart-1-100/

We also started doing big brainz multiplication drills.

 

I let her use the chart while she got the algorithm down. I printed extra long division worksheets from Pinterest for as much practice as she needed. We took a break from the text until she could do them without a problem.

 

I was really glad that we had done the extra mutiplication practice when we hit factors in 4A.

[mamamindy]

Wow, thank you for all the great advice.  We had some computer failure, and then a houseful of family for the weekend, so I am only just getting to read them all.  I appreciate it!

[mamamindy]

I think 3A is where Singapore starts to actually be rigorous - 1 and 2 are great, but nothing that stands out.

 

As far as multiplication models, arrays are a valid explanation. So is groups. So is sets of each. So is scaling, repeated addition, fractals, combinations, skip counting, etc. but all of these are visually limiting when you get to big numbers (hence the place value disks, but you could use centimeter cubes/rods/flats/etc). The concept of multiplication needs to be pretty firm before moving on to using it just symbolically, and with large numbers.

 

So, I would work on seeing multiplication in different ways (like those above) first. Then, more practice with single digit multiplication. I am not one who requires rote mastery of facts at that age - they get a multiplication chart and can use it as needed, and they eventually internalize the facts from using them. I do require that they *get* the concepts before moving on.

 

Have you used EducationUnboxed at all - the videos present solid conceptual understanding using concrete models, and it's fun. Also check out Moebiusnoodles.com. Check out their whole site, but blog post 6 Ways to Collect Multiplication Pictures might be helpful.

 

Have fun! 3A will be there when your student is ready - no rush :-)

Thank you for your suggestions!!

 

I LOVE the videos on education unboxed for my own education, and for a couple of my other children, but the daughter in question is very resistant to trying anything "new" or different…makes things difficult.  I often just work out the problems, using the rods like in the videos, for my own benefit while I know she's watching out of the corner of her eye, only to see her try it later on her own.  I guess you could call her issues pride…it's hard to "teach" this one.  Things work best when she feels like she's figured it out all on her own.  Very competitive girl by nature.  I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time explaining our dynamic...

 

All that to say, we've taken a break of 3A and have been working through a SM IP book.  I am wondering, how best to work on different ways of seeing multiplication?    I look forward to checking out the other website.  Thank you!

[Targhee]

Thank you for your suggestions!!

 

I LOVE the videos on education unboxed for my own education, and for a couple of my other children, but the daughter in question is very resistant to trying anything "new" or different…makes things difficult. I often just work out the problems, using the rods like in the videos, for my own benefit while I know she's watching out of the corner of her eye, only to see her try it later on her own. I guess you could call her issues pride…it's hard to "teach" this one. Things work best when she feels like she's figured it out all on her own. Very competitive girl by nature. I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time explaining our dynamic...

 

All that to say, we've taken a break of 3A and have been working through a SM IP book. I am wondering, how best to work on different ways of seeing multiplication? I look forward to checking out the other website. Thank you!

Have you tried Miquon? Very good for self discovery! Beast Academy is too. Best Wishes!

[Hottater]

Thank you for this post!!! 

 

[mamamindy]

Have you tried Miquon? Very good for self discovery! Beast Academy is too. Best Wishes!

I DO have Miquon on my shelf…I have been terrible at implementing it.  AND, I'm just really not sure where to begin with DD…  I will give it another look tonight.  And Beast Academy looks awesome.  I have considered giving her a placement test.  She's resistant to change, and likes the rhythm we had going with Singapore when we had it (although would much prefer skip any instruction part on my end…which really isn't an option).

 

I appreciate your comments and suggestions.  Thank you!

[mamamindy]

I think 3A is where Singapore starts to actually be rigorous - 1 and 2 are great, but nothing that stands out.

 

As far as multiplication models, arrays are a valid explanation. So is groups. So is sets of each. So is scaling, repeated addition, fractals, combinations, skip counting, etc. but all of these are visually limiting when you get to big numbers (hence the place value disks, but you could use centimeter cubes/rods/flats/etc). The concept of multiplication needs to be pretty firm before moving on to using it just symbolically, and with large numbers.

 

So, I would work on seeing multiplication in different ways (like those above) first. Then, more practice with single digit multiplication. I am not one who requires rote mastery of facts at that age - they get a multiplication chart and can use it as needed, and they eventually internalize the facts from using them. I do require that they *get* the concepts before moving on.

 

Have you used EducationUnboxed at all - the videos present solid conceptual understanding using concrete models, and it's fun. Also check out Moebiusnoodles.com. Check out their whole site, but blog post 6 Ways to Collect Multiplication Pictures might be helpful.

 

Have fun! 3A will be there when your student is ready - no rush :-)

I am SO SORRY to keep picking on you!  I'm just a newbie, really.  I haven't really heard of anyone who doesn't require memorization of the math facts.  (Albeit my homeschooling 'friends' are mostly the wonderful ladies on this board.) And when I looked into Math Mammoth, that is the whole second half of the multiplication book -- memorization of the times table.  I never memorized them myself, but I'm also not great at math and trying to memorize them now, to help myself.  Just wondering your thoughts on this.  Again, I have really appreciated the advice.

[Targhee]

I don't feel picked on because I am pretty secure in what we do for math. I know what we do isn't the solution for everyone, but since you were asking for outside input I gave you mine. :-) I never said that my kids didn't learn their math facts. They learn them.

 

I do not require my kids to memorize multiplication facts in order to continue to bigger concepts in math. Once they understand multiplication conceptually, have created their own table as we go through fact families, and begin multiplication problems they get to keep their times table chart as long as they need it. They also learn, thanks to Singapore, a lot of great mental math tactics which help them use the fact famies they know to do calculations (eg my 2nd grader can see 7x6 and compute (5+2)x6 because she knows those families. She will one day get tired of that and choose to commit the sevens to memory.

 

This works for my kids, who generally have been ready to understand concepts in advanced of their ability to recall facts. We "drill" facts not in isolation, but in actually solving real math problems. And through games (not "math" games, but well designed and fun games which also happen to use math). My oldest used her table up until she was 11. About a year later and she is completely AoPS Algebra A, and doing extremely well at it. My middle used his until he was 9. My third is still learning concepts and will get a table later when we cover fact families (part of Beast Academy 3, which she's currently using). By using the math facts, in meaningful context of other problems - word problems, puzzle problems, area problems, etc - they begin to know them, and their use of the times table chart is cumbersome enough they soon enough memorize it through looking up the same facts over again. It turns from a crutch into a fetter they cut loose themselves, because they want to do more interesting math.

 

In the mean time their taste for math hasn't been deadened by distasteful drill. That distaste almost ruined my oldest's taste for math. It's her favorite subject now - and she is really excelling!

 

That being said, you obviously have to figure out what works for your child. That is always tricky, and we have come a long way to find out what works for us. Best Wishes!

[mamamindy]

I don't feel picked on because I am pretty secure in what we do for math. I know what we do isn't the solution for everyone, but since you were asking for outside input I gave you mine. :-) I never said that my kids didn't learn their math facts. They learn them.

 

I do not require my kids to memorize multiplication facts in order to continue to bigger concepts in math. Once they understand multiplication conceptually, have created their own table as we go through fact families, and begin multiplication problems they get to keep their times table chart as long as they need it. They also learn, thanks to Singapore, a lot of great mental math tactics which help them use the fact famies they know to do calculations (eg my 2nd grader can see 7x6 and compute (5+2)x6 because she knows those families. She will one day get tired of that and choose to commit the sevens to memory.

 

This works for my kids, who generally have been ready to understand concepts in advanced of their ability to recall facts. We "drill" facts not in isolation, but in actually solving real math problems. And through games (not "math" games, but well designed and fun games which also happen to use math). My oldest used her table up until she was 11. About a year later and she is completely AoPS Algebra A, and doing extremely well at it. My middle used his until he was 9. My third is still learning concepts and will get a table later when we cover fact families (part of Beast Academy 3, which she's currently using). By using the math facts, in meaningful context of other problems - word problems, puzzle problems, area problems, etc - they begin to know them, and their use of the times table chart is cumbersome enough they soon enough memorize it through looking up the same facts over again. It turns from a crutch into a fetter they cut loose themselves, because they want to do more interesting math.

 

In the mean time their taste for math hasn't been deadened by distasteful drill. That distaste almost ruined my oldest's taste for math. It's her favorite subject now - and she is really excelling!

 

That being said, you obviously have to figure out what works for your child. That is always tricky, and we have come a long way to find out what works for us. Best Wishes!

Thank you so much for that great explanation of how the math facts are incorporated for your kids.  I appreciate it!!  Really, it lines up with a lot of my own ideas about how math should be taught…this is just my first go-through and I'm still learning.

 

I really like how Miquon has the kids make their own tables.  My DD really liked doing that (though she's not using Miquon) and having her keep it in her school box when we pick back up in 3A is a great idea.

 

I want to look into Beast Academy….  I guess I thought it was a bit more advanced than Singapore… I will have to check it out more.

 

Would you mind sharing what games (not "math") you're referring to?  I have tried math games here with little success because they were viewed as math, work, or a chore.  It would be nice if they were games even I wanted to play. :-)

 

Again, I really appreciate the time you've taken to help me out. 

[TKDmom]

I had the same problem in that section of SM 3A with 3 different children. With the first two, I jumped ship (Math Mammoth for dd and BA for ds). With 3rd child, we took a short break from SM, used some other math books that I had on the shelf, and found online games to solidify long division. Then we moved on to the next unit. He's in 4A now, and he just finished the unit on multiplication and division. It was much easier this time. Moving on gave him time to mature and learn math facts naturally and digest information on how to do division. You've already got some good advice, but I just wanted to add my encouragement that it will get easier if you don't give up! 

[Targhee]

Thank you so much for that great explanation of how the math facts are incorporated for your kids. I appreciate it!! Really, it lines up with a lot of my own ideas about how math should be taught…this is just my first go-through and I'm still learning.

 

I really like how Miquon has the kids make their own tables. My DD really liked doing that (though she's not using Miquon) and having her keep it in her school box when we pick back up in 3A is a great idea.

 

I want to look into Beast Academy…. I guess I thought it was a bit more advanced than Singapore… I will have to check it out more.

 

Would you mind sharing what games (not "math") you're referring to? I have tried math games here with little success because they were viewed as math, work, or a chore. It would be nice if they were games even I wanted to play. :-)

 

Again, I really appreciate the time you've taken to help me out.

As to Beast Academy being more advanced, I think it requires a different way of thinking about math which includes struggling with problems, using intuition, and quickly using the thing you just learned in more difficult problems to learn something else. It teaches the same math topics (in fact, it is Common Core aligned), it just teaches them with different methods. Singapore uses concrete-pictorial-abstract sequence to help kids understand, and that is what the place value disks you mentioned are for. BA does very little concretely, so students need to be able to work with pictures and with symbols and word problems. Usually this means they have already had a strong grounding in basic math concepts using concrete manipulatives. I will say that I pulled out manipulatives on several occasions to help DS in the first two books of BA 3. Oh, and

3A begins assuming you don't have your facts memorized.

 

One game the kids love which uses lots of multiplication (though usually just the facts up to 6x6) is an old (out of print?) card game called Earthquake. Also Mythmatical Battles (that's a bit more overtly mathy, but the myths and the battles are fun enough the kids don't care). We play board/Table top games as diverse as Lost Cities, Dominion, Yatzee, Farkle, Pig... Really, I look first for games that are engaging and have a good mechanic. If they also have math that's even better. I can point you to a file I made of math games later - I'm running out the door to co-op.

[camino]

I didn't realize so many people have had the same kind of problem. We ended up taking an entire month off from Singapore to 1) master the multiplication tables and 2) practice long division and multiplication, just 4 or 5 per page. I could tell we needed to slow down. My son has always loved math and grasps concepts very easily. The long division algorithm is the first major challenge he has ever encountered in math. I think part of the problem was definitely not having the multiplication facts mastered, but I think he also struggled with using a multiple-step algorithm that wasn't entirely intuitive to him. It really helped and, I have to say, he has absolutely flown through 3b. We are using Beast Academy, too, and I think it is a truly amazing program to get kids to think differently and creatively. 

[jniter]

I love AoPS and used it to tutor HS kids when I was still teaching. These were kids that wanted an edge for math competitions. I'll have to check out Beast Academy now that my son is probably approaching the 3A level (he's doing the pre-assessment as we speak).

[jniter]

Mm....just got my Visible Thinking in Mathematics 3A and Primary Mathematics 3A materials...

 

Don't know if I'm going to bother w/the Primary 3A. I can see why it is problematic. Topics are broken down more and rearranged a little in the VTM...

[SeaConquest]

We are about to hit this in SM 3A, so I appreciate the OP giving a head's up. After looking through SM 3A more closely, I can see that this issue will likely cause trouble for my son (he has been breezing along fine to date, but multi-digit multiplication and long division seem like a really big jump). For those that also use BA, at which point in BA did you circle back to SM 3A? We have done the first chapter in BA 3A concurrent with SM 3A, but I am not sure at which point we should go back and finish SM 3A if we take a BA detour for awhile.

[sweetpea3829]

We are about to hit this in SM 3A, so I appreciate the OP giving a head's up. After looking through SM 3A more closely, I can see that this issue will likely cause trouble for my son (he has been breezing along fine to date, but multi-digit multiplication and long division seem like a really big jump). For those that also use BA, at which point in BA did you circle back to SM 3A? We have done the first chapter in BA 3A concurrent with SM 3A, but I am not sure at which point we should go back and finish SM 3A if we take a BA detour for awhile.

 

Right now, we are using BA as a follow up to SM.  I started Beast 3 last summer as a bridge from Singapore 2 to 3.  We did the fractions chapter in 3D as well as all of 3A and some of 3B.  We finished 3B concurrently with SM 3A in the fall.  

 

It was challenging for sure, but DS didn't have too many issues with it.  

 

At this point, now that we've completed all of SM 3A and 3B, I kind of wish we had waited on some of those Beast chapters that we had completed last summer.  Particularly the fractions one.  

 

THIS summer, we are completing Beast 3C and the rest of 3D.  I am going to buy Beast 4 and start working on it when DS completes Singapore 4.  

 

I may pause in certain sections of SM 4 and complete the corresponding Beast chapter right after the Singapore chapter.  Depends on how quickly he moves through SM 4.  

 

In general, I prefer seeing the topic in SM first and then following up with Beast.  

[Targhee]

As to Beast Academy being more advanced, I think it requires a different way of thinking about math which includes struggling with problems, using intuition, and quickly using the thing you just learned in more difficult problems to learn something else. It teaches the same math topics (in fact, it is Common Core aligned), it just teaches them with different methods. Singapore uses concrete-pictorial-abstract sequence to help kids understand, and that is what the place value disks you mentioned are for. BA does very little concretely, so students need to be able to work with pictures and with symbols and word problems. Usually this means they have already had a strong grounding in basic math concepts using concrete manipulatives. I will say that I pulled out manipulatives on several occasions to help DS in the first two books of BA 3. Oh, and

3A begins assuming you don't have your facts memorized.

 

One game the kids love which uses lots of multiplication (though usually just the facts up to 6x6) is an old (out of print?) card game called Earthquake. Also Mythmatical Battles (that's a bit more overtly mathy, but the myths and the battles are fun enough the kids don't care). We play board/Table top games as diverse as Lost Cities, Dominion, Yatzee, Farkle, Pig... Really, I look first for games that are engaging and have a good mechanic. If they also have math that's even better. I can point you to a file I made of math games later - I'm running out the door to co-op.

:blushing:  Totally forgot about this.  Here's a link.  The file was prepared for my co-op math circle.  There are a lot more games out there.  Really, anything that uses computation skills can benefit their facility with math facts.  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9wr6an9C20RYmtzQTdwdERybnM/view?usp=sharing

[TKDmom]

We are about to hit this in SM 3A, so I appreciate the OP giving a head's up. After looking through SM 3A more closely, I can see that this issue will likely cause trouble for my son (he has been breezing along fine to date, but multi-digit multiplication and long division seem like a really big jump). For those that also use BA, at which point in BA did you circle back to SM 3A? We have done the first chapter in BA 3A concurrent with SM 3A, but I am not sure at which point we should go back and finish SM 3A if we take a BA detour for awhile.

 

I'm late coming back, but the chapter on long division was the one chapter where I would really recommend using the HIG. It breaks up the lesson, and has several activities to do before starting on the textbook work.

[kristin0713]

Can someone link to the Visible Thinking in Mathematics books? I can't find them on RR or SM site.

 

We had the same problem when we hit long division in 3A and I did two things after searching threads here on this topic! One, I bought the MM division book and began working though that with her which helped a TON. Two, we came back to the division in 3A and I have just been doing the work with her, giving her the steps one at a time. I printed out a multiplication table that goes up to 15's and as I give her the steps, she uses the table to solve the problems. I didn't want to just stop and park at drilling facts because there are other things in 3A/3B that she is totally ready for. So as we go through level 3, we are drilling facts as well and I'm just talking her through the steps.

 

ETA

Nevermind, I found them!!

[Runningmom80]

We took a break and did some LOF elementary books, and when we went back, maybe 6 weeks later, it was all good.  (He practiced multiplication during that time, which I think helped tremendously.  He could focus on the operation of division instead of worrying about the products at the same time.)

[strawberryjam]

Check out Times Tales!! It did wonders for my kid (really quickly too). We use Singapore as well.

[Tiramisu]

The jump to multi-digit multiplication and division was especially hard for two of my kids. I made it manageable by not having them do more than two types of those problems a day until they were used to it. We also used the Does McDonalds Sell Cheeseburgers thing that I learned her many years ago for long division. DMSC is divide, multiply, subtract, compare. 

 

FWIW, both of my kids who had a hard time with this also wound up having convergence and tracking issues, which could explain the difficulty with lining numbers up while remembering the new algorithms, because conceptually they were strong.

[Ausmumof3]

So glad to find this thread as we have just hit this wall too. Someone should make a sheet up with warnings on the chapters in singapore where these crazy leaps happen as we hit one pretty much every year and I start wondering if it's time for school each time... Some kind of warning would be great!

[fdrinca]

If math facts are well internalized (even if you haven't memorized the full set, as presented in Singapore), multi-digit multiplication should be OK. Division, too. It could be an issue with understanding and using place value. My son stumbled with long division until we broke apart each problem and solved it by place value - hundreds, then what's left over? Tens, then what's left over? Ones, then what's left over? After he understood the process, working through the standard algorithm was much easier.

[Ausmumof3]

If math facts are well internalized (even if you haven't memorized the full set, as presented in Singapore), multi-digit multiplication should be OK. Division, too. It could be an issue with understanding and using place value. My son stumbled with long division until we broke apart each problem and solved it by place value - hundreds, then what's left over? Tens, then what's left over? Ones, then what's left over? After he understood the process, working through the standard algorithm was much easier.

I think we have done this like 20 times. So far no joy...

[aprilleigh]

I think you hit the nail on the head in your original post. She doesn't understand the algorithm and you don't use it consistently. I get that you want her to understand what's going on with the numbers, but if she already does that for smaller quantities (and you are the best judge of whether or not she gets that), it's time to move from concrete to "abstract" and ask her to extend that understanding to numbers larger than are practical for concrete manipulation. This is typical for math progression, and is an important step that she needs to make before she can go on to more advanced maths.

 

In short, use the concrete (math with manipulatives that let her "see" what's happening) to show why the algorithms work, then ditch the manipulatives and do the math. The idea is to wean her off the need for manipulatives, not use them as long as possible. If she's not ready for that then Singapore may not be the best fit, as they rely heavily on concrete —> abstract fairly early in the curriculum compared to other publishers.