Hi, OP. I have a very similar 2E kid, same diagnoses plus anxiety. I started to write a much longer message and continue if you think details would help. But to your question--I did not and would not define mastery the same way. There is a such a delicate balance here: between making progress and managing frustration, between the need for repetition and the need for novelty, between mastery and boredom. I think it is so important for these kids, at least for my son, to gain confidence in themselves and rediscover the love of learning. He needs to be challenged in order to be engaged. However, he needed a lot of support in order to accomplish the simplest tasks. My son needed some years to find his strengths, allow them to develop, and feel good about them. For my son, who is exceptionally strong in math and truly did not need as much practice as my other kids, I certainly moved on and made no issue about careless mistakes. (Or rather, I tried to work on attention to detail separately, but I didn't hold him back on concepts because of it.) If I saw that he understood a concept and could do it correctly, I continued to practice but moved on. I also used a lot of math games to practice speed, computations, mental math in a varying, fun context. We did Singapore, we did Beast Academy, worked with manipulatives--a lot of variety. I worried about how much support was okay, and when to remove myself, for years. For example, I largely scribed for son for years in every subject, but there came a time when I decided that independence was the biggest goal. For us it was 8th grade but it was less about the age than about where he was emotionally and academically. I knew that he was "ahead" in all the subjects--and I knew that he was confident about his abilities--so we sent him back to a school. For us, the return to school was all about him learning to work completely on his own, without support. Even learning how to advocate for himself. I was happy to have him repeat Algebra, for example, if it meant he learned how to work through, relay, express everything on his own. But I couldn't have done this before 8th grade because he just wasn't emotionally ready for all the change and all the challenges... he had to be mentally ready to handle the little failures of life. As for the balance with other kids--I don't have a good answer. I try so hard to meet my kids where they are and support them when and where they need it. It definitely is not an equitable distribution, and it can be exhausting, but there are only so many hours in the day. I am happy to discuss more if you would like.

Thank you--I will look and see what is available.

Thank you! Open Tent has just what I am looking for but it doesn't start until April. I am hoping to find something that starts in Jan or soon after. I will check out Outschool. Thank you so much!

Hi! Can anyone recommend an on-line writing class, appropriate for a fifth grader, that starts in January/spring semester? My older kids have taken Well Trained Mind Academy classes and also some through IEW—thought they were great especially WTMA. I would love a similar class but am having trouble finding a class for just one semester. Would be grateful for any suggestions. Thanks in advance!

I have a twelve-year-old son like this, too. (And he loves the same novels!) He has a diagnosis of Dysgraphia -- it is so severe that he was diagnosed in second grade -- but later testers have used different language. One person called him Dyslexic, and wanted us to do a whole program starting from the beginning. The last person we worked with about a year ago, a very well-known and respected psychologist and psycho-educational evaluator in my area, calls it "Language-Based Learning Difference that manifests as" ... in my son's case, specific writing challenges. Basically this psychologist won't distinguish between Dyslexia and Dysgraphia because their origins are the same. What he says makes a lot of sense to me. My son had a lot of the same issues (problems crossing the midline, bilateral coordination) that dyslexic kids do but has always enjoyed reading. I find that Dyslexia is not a *useful* descriptor but I can believe -- I do believe -- that the early Montessori and then homeschool instruction he received helped him address work through potential decoding problems that he probably would have otherwise had. As for how to remediate: we have had a lot of success this past year addressing his writing/composition challenges (my son is also an elegant writer and is writing a novel in Tolkien's style), though his handwriting will never be useful. The two things that have helped with spelling -- we tried a lot of the same ones you did, too -- are years of Spelling City and the keyboarding program TTRS. Or maybe something just clicked in his brain?? I doubt that because I'll still occasionally see him write "multiplicashen" but generally his spelling is now actually pretty strong. Not on the level of the rest of his performance but a huge improvement relative to his past. We still have other writing challenges: lining up numbers properly in math, not being able to read his writing, or, more generally, his avoidance of writing in multi-step problems. These didn't cause problems in early grades but now that he is doing more advanced math, algebra this year, it is a constant issue. If you have any ideas for math besides graph paper, let me know!

Hi, This model is working for my just turned 12-year-old, but he is doing only two online classes (through the Well Trained Mind Academy), which may be less than what you had in mind. I am signing him up for three next year (AOPS Algebra, Physics for Logic Stage, Writing). My son takes the school part seriously and does not surf the net. His two classes are writing and math. He has always been an independent kid when it comes to reading so getting other subjects done isn't a problem except when it comes to output. Because the two on-line classes are pretty demanding output-wise, i don't expect much more writing from him. For most other subjects, other than read-aloud and outdoor time, we have a plan and he works entirely on his own. As for the classes themselves, the lectures are live and he enjoys the class time very much. I am impressed with the instruction in both! One of his classes, AOPS pre-Algebra, is very challenging and often requires me to sit close by and poke him in the arm to make sure he is focused. He also likes me close by when he is working on the problems as well but I find that it is often for emotional support rather than actual help with the material! All that may sound annoying to parents of kids who do not have ADHD, but it is just normal for us. I think the ADHD (my son's is severe)/high IQ and intellectually curious kid is a difficult one to manage--but this year has been wonderful for us. My son also has severe dysgraphia. He was in a gifted program at school and was still absolutely miserable. He really wasn't supported enough (no one ever explicitly taught him how to write until we started homeschooling), nor was he challenged enough. He came home feeling exhausted and down on himself. The problem is that he really needed more in every way than our all-around solid public school could offer. He is so much more challenged, stimulated, happy at home--and these classes give us some structure that a) ensures that we are on the right track and b) allows us to practice executive functions skills in a step-by-step and less overwhelming way.

I live in Northern Virginia (Fairfax County) and the advanced track here has kids doing Algebra in 7th. I have heard that occasionally kids start earlier but it is rare enough that I do not know one child personally who has done that. Most children coming out of the Advanced Academic Program in Elementary School do Algebra in 7th or 8th. If anything, there is a push from teachers to make kids slow down in middle school. The requirements to be allowed to take Algebra in 7th are actually extremely high. So it really is not that different from before. That said, I constantly hear my son's friends saying that they did "Algebra" in their sixth grade classroom and, when I ask, it is clear that they got a little taste of algebra, in other words... a tiny bit of pre-algebra.

Thanks for these suggestions!

Hello! My eleven-year old is enrolled in a couple of on-line classes through the Well-Trained Mind Academy and is loving them. I would consider enrolling my 10-year-old fifth grader in a class or two, starting in January--if I can find something comparable for just the one semester. Ideally I'd love a writing class and a math class. (Both kids are strong in math but need a lot of structure in writing. Older son absolutely loves Art of Problem Solving.) In sum, I am looking for something very much the same style as the Well-Trained Mind Academy but for one semester only. Any recommendations?? Thanks in advance!

I have an eleven-year-old with dysgraphia as well. He was diagnosed at age 7. In more recent testing, psychologist said it is the most severe case he has ever seen. I second OneStepAtATime's comment that the most/only useful book-reading on dysgraphia is The Mislabeled Child. I don't have any great advice because we're in the throes of it now... I have posted before about our struggles with Math. My son is very strong in Math but we have reached a point where the dysgraphia is really interfering even in his strongest areas. I can tell you that, in our case, no amount of OT (two years of private OT weekly with no time off ever) or practice at home (daily for years and years) improved child's handwriting. This is not everybody's story, of course, but it can happen to some. The best decision I ever made was to start homeschooling in third grade and de-emphasize the physical act of writing. Homeschooling has allowed my son to grow in his areas of strengths and to gain back confidence academically. We can use different methods, there are no handwriting comparisons. One of my most important insights--and I think I got this from the Mislabeled Child, though I don't remember--is that my son, unlike so many people, not only does not learn through writing but rather the act of writing in fact impedes his learning. I repeat this message to myself again and again because... it goes so counter to my own learning style and education. But it is my son's reality. If i ask him to write down his Latin verbs, it will be an exercise in frustration and exhaustion that will lead to no learning. If I repeat them and mix -in some visuals, he learns easily. Of course, the struggle is always PRODUCTION. Has he really learned if he can't write it?? How much can he keep in his head with our methods?? how will this work in high school?? Still, I can't find any other way. I scribe for my son in every subject. When he has to write, he does as much as possible on the computer... which of course is slow-going. I'd be happy to talk more and share experiences...

Hello! Can anyone recommend a website with simple drills to practice Latin conjugations, declensions, and so on? I'd love for my son to do a few minutes every day of repetition and drill work and something on-line work much better for us than workbook/paper. He is in fifth and this has been his first year with Latin so we are still working on the early basics. Thank you for any suggestions!

No solutions, just joining you in the search. I don't find modmath user-friendly or intuitive either... I am sure it is to some, but I have been on the lookout for the ideal app for my ten-year-old for two years and can't find anything. I keep thinking we should go back to modmath and just get used to it... Generally I scribe for my son during math, let him do a lot mentally, and limit what he how much to write day-to-day. Our system works in that he has been able to continue to advance at a good pace in our program. However, he is not growing more independent. If anything, as the work gets more complex and likely to require multiple steps, he has become more reliant on my scribing than he was at age 8 because he can't count on his memory to do all the work. (And writing always increases the likelihood of all sorts of errors. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

We really like Dreambox. I think we bought a one-year family membership? I don't remember exactly what I paid but for my four kids, I definitely felt that it was reasonable.

I have done lots of different kind of logic puzzles with my fourth grader -- we started in third. He has done the Mind Benders, Balance Benders, and others, from Critical Thinking Co, Logic Safari puzzles, Visual Discrimination from Didax, Analogy and rhyming workbooks. I use them as warmups, first thing in the morning. He does them independently and really enjoys them.

My son, who is 10 and 2E (ADHD, Generalized Anxiety, and Dysgraphia), was a bit like your daughter at that age, especially with transitions. And so intense all the time! Therapy was incredibly helpful, especially the parent part where I learned how to manage him for lack of a better word. For my son, having a very consistent routine and being forewarned about all transitions, was incredibly helpful. At first my husband vacillated between slight annoyance at having to "prep" my son for everything--truly everything, all day long--and skepticism that something so simple would work. But it was shockingly and immediately helpful. For example, we would discuss how child is going to take X class, starting in a few weeks. We'd mention it calmly but in a positive way, regularly, for the following two weeks, possibly with inclusion of a small built-in reward (like, on the way home we'll stop and have a snack, etc). Then on the day of: In a couple of hours, we go to the first class! Ten minute warning, then Do it, even if it's kicking and screaming. I think that anxiety is a huge part of resistance to transitions and the knowledge of what's coming is extremely reassuring. We had to work so, so hard to get my son to do his favorite sport but now he is completely hooked and it is a huge part of his social life and a great source of joy and self-esteem. At age 10, he still is not a fan of surprises but handles them so, so much better. And the little transitions that used to be so hard are nothing! By the way, my son also hyperfocuses and has an amazing memory. I do think they are features of his ADHD, that have negatives and huge positives. It is great to be able to talk about both. The wonderful part about homeschooling a child like him is that, despite his severe challenges, he has true passions and interests. Sometimes WW2, sometimes Minecraft, and so on... all can be channelled into a home school lesson. I agree with OhElizabeth that homeschooling is not magical, and we have to work hard at it as parents, but I do think there is no better way to work with 2E children and meet them at their (confusing! ever-evolving! surprisingly advanced and surprisingly delayed!) level. Best of luck!

Wow... you all have touched on so many of our struggles. My son is in fourth grade, advanced in math and reading, also severely dysgraphic and severely ADHD (I think working memory was avg, but with large discrepancy, and processing speed low). His mental math skills are impressive and I encourage them to some extent, but I also, for years, have insisted that he write some of the work down precisely because I feared that, once things got more complicated, it would all fall apart. Well, it is starting to happen. We are in Singapore 5 and he is starting to make the mistakes that I feared all along! Sometimes they are careless, like skipping the final, real question of a multi-step word problem. Other times he messes up because he forgets the (correctly computed) answer to the first part of a problem and so the next parts are all wrong, even though his understanding and process are solid. And yet, often enough, when he writes all the steps down (he would only do this when forced--never voluntarily!), he actually has a GREATER tendency to make mistakes. I could give a hundred examples but, for example, the other day he actually forgot how to set up a long division problem... something he mastered over a year ago and thus could not go on in the problem. The act of writing absolutely disrupts his flow of thinking. As one of the PPs said, all of these issues disappears if I scribe. If I sit there, and act as a pencil, give zero feedback, he can do anything--and very easily. So, of course we scribe most of the time but I fear that I am over supporting him and that he will never be independent. I am really at a loss for what to do. To address your questions more specifically, I feel like on the one hand, the mental math capacity can be there, even with these issues, It is not a problem for us at all. I mean, maybe he is a little slower than kids with his same math abilities, but not in a way that I even notice. On the other hand, the more complex questions are getting, the more apparent his issues are becoming. I wish I had an answer. I will be following eagerly. I feel like there must an app out there to solve all of our problems but I haven't found it. As far as writing in Language Arts and other disciplines goes, we have finally pretty much given up on handwriting. We did two full years of private OT, years of dedicated regular practice at home, years of small motor and hand strengthening games and exercises... and his writing has actually gotten progressively worse. This fact has generally shocked teachers and OTs but some people very knowledgeable in dysgraphia have confirmed that it makes sense that as his thinking has progressed, he has even less attention and energy to give to handwriting. We made some progress with cursive and he was proud of himself but it is too slow to ever be practical. So as of January or so, we do absolutely everything on the computer. Sometimes he narrates and I scribe, sometimes he types on his own, sometimes he uses dictation software and then edits it. We are definitely making progress and I am happy about where we are. I am working towards independence and we are not there yet. For example, I still have to help him with dictation software, but I think we will get there. For writing programs, we did Writing with Ease in third grade and are doing IEW this year. Writing with Ease was great because it broke down the different tasks of writing. Towards the end of the year, though, he really wanted a change so I picked IEW. He doesn't like IEW but he doesn't hate it, so not bad! I think that it is an excellent program for a kid like him, very structured and organized and step-by-step. We alternate the formal writing program with more fun writing. I give him prompts in his areas of high interest, like "Who would win a battle between Thor and Hulk? Explain your logic." Or, I had him write a letter to his favorite soccer player and another one to the author of his favorite Minecraft books. Things like that. At least now he no longer thinks that he hates writing... as long as no pencil is involved. It is tough to gauge exactly where my son is writing-wise and I have to remind myself to be patient. His vocabulary and reasoning, and even style, are very advanced when I scribe, or when we use dictation, and probably ok/grade level when he types on his own. So, again, the independence part isn't there yet. More importantly, though, I am seeing progress and that is a relief. Good luck! I will keep following and maybe we can trade ideas.

Following discussion and learning a lot! What age would you say for this book?

4 was a hard time for my very sensitive child. I think, for him, it had to do with asynchronous development. He was developing so fast in some areas, not just intellectually but in his awareness of himself and the world, and not as much in others. He hadn't developed the emotional strategies to deal with how much, and how deeply he perceived everything. Also for him, sensory processing has always been very closely linked to anxiety. When his anxiety is lowered, he is much less sensitive, or over-reactive, to the physical environment.

I aim for about 10-20 minutes a day with my fourth grader so that he does about an hour a week. We use it as a supplement for Singapore. My younger kids do it for fun every once in a while.

I remember this section presenting the first real challenge for my son who loves math and is very intuitive about it. My son completely understood the concepts but could not remember the steps in the algorithm. There were some threads on this last year, too--I think a lot of people struggle at this point. What we did was sort of take a few weeks off from progressing in the book and work in a variety of ways on multiplication facts. And every single day, I would assign a couple of long division problems and I'd walk him through the steps. There was no magical clicking moment. For us it took a lot of handholding and repetition until he was proficient

My son, who has ADHD (not medicated), also gets transient tics. I think that once you see one neurological issue, the likelihood of another increases. My son's tics seem related to allergies, at least when they appear. Then they typically go away on their own. Many people report that magnesium helps with anxiety, adhd, and tics. I am not sure that it does in our case but i have run it by our clinicians and they have approved it so we use it.

I second getting an evaluation. If he doesn't have dysgraphia, you may find that he makes progress very quickly with targeted practice with a good OT. If he does have dysgraphia, you might need a different approach with established accommodations throughout the school day. I know everyone is different but, for what it's worth, I did push my -year-old son, despite his incredible reluctance. We did years of private OT, year-round, plus daily practice at home. His handwriting, which was horrible in K, actually deteriorated as he got older and his ideas became more sophisticated. His first-grade teacher was flabbergasted. Some people will not improve with practice and often people with dysgraphia will seem to get worse. The developmental pediatrician, who diagnosed my son with severe dysgraphia, basically said to stop making him write. Scribe everything. Make homework oral. Just make sure his writing challenges don't impede his intellectual progress in math/writing/critical thinking, etc. We started homeschooling last year in third, and I haven't totally done that, but almost. We started cursive, slowly and with loads of encouragement, and he does a lovely job with it but it is totally impractical. It takes him sooooooooo long to try to be neat. It is almost like he needs to figure out each letter as he goes along. You said you think with your son it is mental and with mine it is as well. His brain knows what it wants him to write but can't get the message to his hand. Unfortunately, it is also physical. After a few words, his hands hurt. I know keyboarding is my son's future but of course progress is slow at this age in that area. Anyway, I think the best thing is to make sure that you know what you are dealing with. My son is also very bright, a voracious reader and a curious child, and this particular challenge has been extremely frustrating and humiliating to him to the point of really affecting his self-esteem.

My son (9) has been diagnosed with severe ADHD and generalized anxiety. At its worst, it was a huge struggle to get him to leave the house. At a more functional but high state, it reminds me of how you describe your child. I agree with so many of the comments above and I just want to add to a couple made by OhElizabeth. Rigidity definitely goes hand-in-hand with anxiety. I think it is extremely common for children who feel out-of-control to try to exert control over their environment; and for children who feel unstable to try to make their environment stable and predictable. In our experience, the lack of flexibility was a more serious sign of my child's anxiety than specific fears (the dark and so on). My son's anxiety has fluctuated a lot in the last few years and his rigidity has been intimately aligned. When the anxiety is low, the rigidity disappears. In other words, I think, the you are right to see her bedtime habits as signs of anxiety, to take them seriously, and to try to address the underlying anxiety. I also wanted to address a small point you made, that your daughter seems like she is half-joking. When my son's anxiety is extreme, he is unable to think of anything else and is overcome by it. But otherwise, he is a lot like our daughter. I think the half-joking is their way of showing that they are aware that they are different, that they are embarrassed, they know what they are feeling isn't "normal." But I don't think--even though in the moment sometimes I am tricked by it--that it means they are making up their feelings or just trying to get attention or not really upset. I have learned to always take my son's anxiety seriously, even when it seems most absurd or misplaced to me. I have to remind myself that he isn't making it up--why would he??! it is no fun for him!--and I am better able to support him when he knows I believe him. We have taken pretty much every approach that exists to address my child's anxiety. There was a time when he needed to be medicated. I am thrilled that that time is over but I don't regret it. We probably waited too long because of my reluctance to resort to medication ... my son had gone from highly anxious but functional to practically opting out of childhood, unable to participate in school, activities, sports, social experiences, etc. We saw a wonderful therapist for years and that was enormously helpful. In the last year my son has made enormous strides in every imaginable way. My family, neighbors, friends remark on it every time they see us. I can proudly say that he has become a polite, compassionate, bright and curious boy--of course he will always be intense and somewhat anxious as well. He has never been more social nor more successful at sports activities. I attribute this change primarily to homeschooling, which addresses the ADHD and intellectual needs much better than school ever did (we never medicated for the ADHD). And the good feelings and success have led to more good things. But we have also been doing nutritional supplements forever, as well as neurofeedback for a year now. It is hard to parse the results, but since things have never been better, I am pretty happy with these interventions and think they are worth exploring.

My son is 9. He is most definitely over-sensitive emotionally! He used to be very much over-sensitive as far as sensory processing goes, too. Too many people, loud noise, a lot of activity, etc, would get him extremely excited but eventually would become so overwhelming that he would kind of turn off his systems and shut down. I think anxiety has always been the primary challenge for him and so the sensory responsiveness would fluctuate with his level of anxiety. And it still does to some extent but he also kind of grew out of the sensory over-reactiveness around ages 6-7. He is on the sensitive side now but much closer to norm. The psych uses a few different approaches. They are all passive, I think, and quite intuitive. I ask a lot of questions but I only remember the name of the system I used myself (and that was active... I had to concentrate to raise the level of a bar to the top of a thermometer... it was hard for me!). My son plays a video game where he controls the speed of the car. I think this part of the session focuses more on emotional regulation. Most of the time, though, he watches a movie, where the screen goes blank and the sounds lowers when he loses focus. I hope I can do more myself! I'll find out more specific so we can keep discussing and compare notes!

What does the OT say about the fatigue?? It sounds like your daughter is really responding to the therapy, which is amazing, but maybe it is too much? My son has been doing neurofeedback once a week since the fall. We do it at a family psychologist office. The psych asks for verbal and written feedback from me every week and adjusts the plan depending on what I say. Sometimes he will target a particular problem (and one part of the brain) but then he might tweak the timing, do it for a shorter or or longer time. Sometimes he'll alter his plan altogether. We had to discontinue one approach because my son was very emotional for the first couple days after sessions. Our psych does have a fully stocked office with numerous machines so maybe that gives him extra flexibility, but I do think that there is a lot the practitioner can do to make adjustments. Re: fatigue, my son is usually sluggish and exhausted for about fifteen minutes, to the point that he flops around and leans on me on the way out. But in a very short time, he perks up and generally seems more organized and happy. He almost always has a good day. I have done neurofeedback a couple of times and felt extremely relaxed and alert, not fatigued at all. The fatigue you describe sounds extreme--I wonder of there is something the OT can do about it.