S/O "colorblindness" and what we SHOULD teach our kids?

[SparklyUnicorn]

It is hard. Some of the best advice I've gotten is to just push through the awkwardness of it all.

 

If your kids have really only ever had universally negative experiences with black people, I feel like I'd make a concerted effort to find a situation for them that wouldn't be like that. One of the reasons that I value some of our non-homeschool activities so much is that they're so much more diverse.

 

All of their regular activities are unrelated to homeschooling at this point. 

 

But that's another thing.  It seems whatever activities I choose that are open to the public don't attract diversity.  With the exception of the public pool (and that is where we have had lousy experiences).  I've tried library programs.  Park programs.  Community programs.  The only exception was the Boys and Girls club and my kids hate the place because it's like a zoo there.  They aren't used to that.

[Tanaqui]

But that's another thing.  It seems whatever activities I choose that are open to the public don't attract diversity.  With the exception of the public pool (and that is where we have had lousy experiences).  I've tried library programs.  Park programs.  Community programs.  The only exception was the Boys and Girls club and my kids hate the place because it's like a zoo there.  They aren't used to that.

 

Is this within your own neighborhood?

 

 

Something I've noticed is that some neighborhoods get more of this sort of activity than others, at least where I am. That's not exactly a race thing, it's more of a money thing... but money correlates pretty tightly with "being white", at least around here.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Is this within your own neighborhood?

 

 

Something I've noticed is that some neighborhoods get more of this sort of activity than others, at least where I am. That's not exactly a race thing, it's more of a money thing... but money correlates pretty tightly with "being white", at least around here.

 

No not in my neighborhood.  There is plenty of diversity in my neighborhood, but we don't have stuff like neighborhood activities.  I don't live in a financially well off area.  More moderate or low moderate.  Hard to explain I guess.

 

We do activities that cost money, but we have attended plenty of free activities at all sorts of places based on all sorts of different things. 

[Farrar]

All of their regular activities are unrelated to homeschooling at this point. 

 

But that's another thing.  It seems whatever activities I choose that are open to the public don't attract diversity.  With the exception of the public pool (and that is where we have had lousy experiences).  I've tried library programs.  Park programs.  Community programs.  The only exception was the Boys and Girls club and my kids hate the place because it's like a zoo there.  They aren't used to that.

 

Sparkly, don't you, like me, live in a pretty diverse urban area? My ds have a really nicely diverse soccer team. And one of my ds's marimba group is really diverse. One of the things that has helped most for them is now that they're old enough to go outside and be on their own and make friends that way, they've made more non-white friends in our neighborhood. No super close friendships, but our homeschool groups tend to have just a few non-white kids and none of them happen to be exactly our demographics (as in, live close enough, kids the right age, etc.) so it has added to the diversity of their experiences and I'm glad.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sparkly, don't you, like me, live in a pretty diverse urban area? My ds have a really nicely diverse soccer team. And one of my ds's marimba group is really diverse. One of the things that has helped most for them is now that they're old enough to go outside and be on their own and make friends that way, they've made more non-white friends in our neighborhood. No super close friendships, but our homeschool groups tend to have just a few non-white kids and none of them happen to be exactly our demographics (as in, live close enough, kids the right age, etc.) so it has added to the diversity of their experiences and I'm glad.

 

Ah yes.  Sports would definitely be one way.  Except my kids both hate sports.

 

The experiences my kids have had with kids in the neighborhood have been terrible.  Kids attacking my kids.  No parents around ever.  Parents lying to me about weird stuff. 

 

I believe you live in a much bigger city than I do. 

[Tanaqui]

 

We do activities that cost money, but we have attended plenty of free activities at all sorts of places based on all sorts of different things.

 

Yeah, but knowledge about these activities is an issue, as is free time, transportation costs (I get so fed up with people saying that poor people are bad parents for not taking their kids to the museum! Even if admission is free, to go to the Met costs me $5.50 if I'm the only one paying a fare. Guess what, if I'm the only one paying a fare, my kids are breaking the law. Everybody does it at this age, but the fines will kill you if you get caught. No joke, a free student metrocard was a HUGE draw in my decision to homeschool for middle school), and also the fact that these activities aren't very diverse, so some families may think "my kids don't belong there" or "I don't want my kid to be the only one" and opt not to go even if the other issues aren't an issue.

 

I don't know of an easy way to diversify their activities, although I'm curious - on a tangent - about your kids "hating sports". Maybe there's a sport out there that they won't have a knee-jerk reaction to?

 

The experiences my kids have had with kids in the neighborhood have been terrible.  Kids attacking my kids.  No parents around ever.  Parents lying to me about weird stuff.

 

I'm really sorry to hear that.

 

[Farrar]

I honestly am not totally sure what I would do if my kids had never had any positive experiences with African Americans - I often fret that my kids have such a disconnect between our multicultural neighborhood and their homeschool friend group and what messages that might be sending and what I can do to counter that, but even thought my kids' closest friends are also white, they certainly have had many positive experiences with non-white kids, enough that I can't quite imagine that it could be that all their experiences were bad. I mean, even as preschoolers at playgrounds? Just never? I think if that's really the case, if it were me, I would make that a life priority to get some in some context, honestly, assuming I didn't live someone completely homogenously white that would make it naturally difficult.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah, but knowledge about these activities is an issue, as is free time, transportation costs (I get so fed up with people saying that poor people are bad parents for not taking their kids to the museum! Even if admission is free, to go to the Met costs me $5.50 if I'm the only one paying a fare. Guess what, if I'm the only one paying a fare, my kids are breaking the law. Everybody does it at this age, but the fines will kill you if you get caught. No joke, a free student metrocard was a HUGE draw in my decision to homeschool for middle school), and also the fact that these activities aren't very diverse, so some families may think "my kids don't belong there" or "I don't want my kid to be the only one" and opt not to go even if the other issues aren't an issue.

 

I don't know of an easy way to diversify their activities, although I'm curious - on a tangent - about your kids "hating sports". Maybe there's a sport out there that they won't have a knee-jerk reaction to?

 

 

I'm really sorry to hear that.

 

No I totally get that, but we do have some public transportation here.  And we have several library branches (to address the issue of transportation).  I think the library spends more money on real estate than books because they want to offer true access to everyone. 

 

And where I live the actual land size of the city is pretty small.  Nothing is far.

 

I will say though that I suspect most kids just attend activities sponsored by the schools.  We aren't allowed to participate, but they really offer EVERYTHING.  So I'm sure there is plenty of diversity there, but again we don't have access to that.  I'm sure this factor skews the situation as well.

 

Um no they hate sports.  And I can't blame them. We have tried.  If you aren't serious by the time you are 8, forget it.  There is nothing for you. 

 

I live in a small city.  Maybe I've given the wrong impression.  I only know what a Metro card is because I've vacationed in places with Metro cards.  LOL  We don't have any of that. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I honestly am not totally sure what I would do if my kids had never had any positive experiences with African Americans - I often fret that my kids have such a disconnect between our multicultural neighborhood and their homeschool friend group and what messages that might be sending and what I can do to counter that, but even thought my kids' closest friends are also white, they certainly have had many positive experiences with non-white kids, enough that I can't quite imagine that it could be that all their experiences were bad. I mean, even as preschoolers at playgrounds? Just never? I think if that's really the case, if it were me, I would make that a life priority to get some in some context, honestly, assuming I didn't live someone completely homogenously white that would make it naturally difficult.

 

I lived somewhere else when they were that little.  it was a much less diverse place.

 

But to get real, I can't force these things or generically create these things either.  Either it happens or it does not happen.  KWIM?

I think already my kids have had more diverse experiences in their short lives than I've had in all of my 40 years. So it's not heading in the wrong direction. 

[idnib]

Do you think this is true everywhere?  We're in a predominantly white province and, from what I've seen so far, it looks like most people who are from places like Nigeria, Guatemala, etc. are very well off.  I think a lot of them come here because of the oil.  

 

What happens when kids grow up in a place where people of colour tend to be in most highly educated and affluent segment of the population?   

 

And with regards to orchestras - really?  Seems to me a lot of orchestras have a lot of Asian musicians. 

 

The orchestra study was about sexism, not racism, but yes, orchestra have become more diverse when they hold blind auditions. Here's an article about it.

 

Racism doesn't involve people just being poor or worse off. Positive stereotypes ("all the people from that country are rich") have a negative effect as well. I'm not saying you think that. but kids might perceive it as such if they're surrounded by it.

[LucyStoner]

The Teaching Tolerance website has some good (free) resources.

They will send you materials as well for teachers. I have some.

 

I read The Autobiography of Malcolm X when I was 12 and watched Eyes on the Prize before that. I don't think kids are incapable of grasping race and the nuances of cultural competency.

[AndyJoy]

Okay, let's back up. I don't know what she talks about with her kids. I know that I am very careful not to implicitly or explicitly define "racism" as "people who judge people based on their skin color and not their actions".

 

When people today are affected by racism, it is rarely overt racial bigotry. It's a pattern in society. It's the fact that black people with a clean record are only as likely to get a second interview as whites who have a felony charge. (How can you prove that it was bigotry and not actual lack of qualifications? And if it was bigotry, how can you prove that the HR person realized what they were doing?) It's the fact that orchestras that don't do blind auditions are less likely to hire non-whites and women. It's the fact that whites are less likely to get arrested than blacks for petty crimes like marijuana use - even though whites are more likely to use marijuana where it's not been decriminalized! And once arrested, for whatever crime, whites are less likely to be convicted and, if convicted, receive lighter sentences, even for the same crimes. It's the fact that infant mortality rates for black babies are twice as high as for white babies.

 

None of this has anything to do with "incidences of racism". They have everything to do with structural injustice and biases inherent in our society.

 

If you keep your focus on people being mean, you're going to send your child a false impression that racism is pretty much over, because even those people who are big ol' bigots usually have the sense to keep it to themselves in public. And it's not. This is how you end up with white people who are convinced that white Christian men are the most discriminated against group in the US, don't make me laugh. Better to not bring up race or racism at all than to say things that are not quite true.

I understand and agree, but this seems like it's a bit too abstract to attempt to explain right now for his age/maturity. He still doesn't even understand when someone is being mean to him or that when they hit him they are probably angry with him! He's encountered some "girls only" or "boys only" playground arguments and has been baffled. I told him we don't exclude anyone from playing with us for being different from us, and isn't it silly that some people think it matters if you're a boy or a girl? And then I threw in--or what color your skin is? He found it very odd that anyone would. I've mentioned American slavery and the Holocaust very briefly. I'm definitely not going to stop the conversation at overt acts of racism, but it seems like a starting point given his very concrete thinking right now. I feel like I have a much better grasp on how to talk to a 13-year-old but I want to know how to lay a good foundation now and not have it be a "big talk" at 13. Similar to how I'm teaching about sex.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I understand and agree, but this seems like it's a bit too abstract to attempt to explain right now for his age/maturity. He still doesn't even understand when someone is being mean to him or that when they hit him they are probably angry with him! He's encountered some "girls only" or "boys only" playground arguments and has been baffled. I told him we don't exclude anyone from playing with us for being different from us, and isn't it silly that some people think it matters if you're a boy or a girl? And then I threw in--or what color your skin is? He found it very odd that anyone would. I've mentioned American slavery and the Holocaust very briefly. I'm definitely not going to stop the conversation at overt acts of racism, but it seems like a starting point given his very concrete thinking right now. I feel like I have a much better grasp on how to talk to a 13-year-old but I want to know how to lay a good foundation now and not have it be a "big talk" at 13. Similar to how I'm teaching about sex.

 

He is young.  Things do come up.  For sure.

 

When we moved to this area from where we used to live it was a bit of a change for us.  It's a much more diverse area.  I particularly like that.  But I found it weird that for the longest time my kids never asked questions or pointed things out.  I didn't know if they did not notice or what.  That's very possible.  But then one day one of my kids blurted out, "Hey Mom how come that guy has a black face!?"  We had seen a zillion black people before so what stood out at that moment boggles my mind.  So I just said well haven't you noticed that people come in different colors, sizes, etc.?  And he just said, "oh yeah!".  LOL

[Tanaqui]

I understand and agree, but this seems like it's a bit too abstract to attempt to explain right now for his age/maturity.

 

Oddly enough, it turns out not to be. I'm not saying that in a snarky way, either. At five, since I knew the girls had already noticed (indeed, had been noticing for a few years) that the media available to children has a distinct lack of diversity, I talked about it - and I didn't frame it as "how silly, some people do this!" but as "the people who wrote this book didn't think about black people reading it, or maybe they thought that white parents wouldn't read a book about black children and didn't care if that meant black children don't have a book to read about themselves. Sometimes people who are in the majority will decide not to read about people who aren't like them because they can do that" or "that show has a lot of white kids on it, but no black or Asian or Hispanic kids. You notice, because you don't look like ANY of the kids on the show, but if you did match them, what would that make you think about the world and how it should look?"

 

By five, we were past "how silly that some boys and girls don't want to play together!" and well into "Did you see that all these shows, the boys talk more than the girls do?" (that was their observation at this point, not mine) and "Why did they make three different types of boy on this game, but only one type of girl? How is it I can have green skin, and blue skin, and skin like a white person, but not dark brown skin?" (again, their observation) and "I didn't tell you Dora is for girls. How did you learn? Oh, so-and-so said. How do you think they learned that? Do you think his mom snatched the Dora doll out of his hands and said 'that's for girls'? Where do people get the idea that this is for boys and this is for girls?" (Okay, that was my discussion, but the point was to talk about where we get these hidden messages that we don't even know we're learning.)

 

I found the media a more helpful way of talking about racism in society than looking for individual acts of bigotry to comment on. As I said, overt bigotry is not all that common. It's not that it doesn't happen, but that is one positive change from the past, it's much rarer than it used to be.

 

[LucyStoner]

Wendy- we lived for a time in a neighborhood where my older son had negative interactions with some black kids who were mean-spirited. He wasn't socially savvy enough to break down the class barriers and they probably weren't accustomed to kids with autism. In his case, he has other relationships with black people, including his cousins. He was bullied by white kids in school so I don't think it occurred to him to generalize the mean behavior at the park to other black kids. I can see how what you describe would be tough. No answers, just commenting/commiserating.

 

ETA- it also probably didn't help that my son was obviously middle class in a mixed income area. Class matters.

[AndyJoy]

I think the most important thing at this age is to pay attention. I've got two biracial girls, and I promise you, at five years old they noticed that many of their books and library books didn't have characters that looked like them (and I tried, and continue to try very hard to have a diverse book collection), that people on TV and movies usually didn't look like them, that the nicer playground we went to (our neighborhood doesn't really have playgrounds, so we go out of our way to go to a wealthy neighborhood that's overrun with them) had a lot of kids who didn't look much like them. I remember years of the older kiddo being very upset because she didn't have "princess hair" - you know, long, blond, straight.

 

So, something to take away from this. You should definitely diversify your media. It takes a little more effort, but there are books about black kids, Asian kids, Native American kids, Hispanic kids, disabled kids, biracial kids, and so on. And they aren't all "historical", aka "about bad things that happened in the past". (That's another thing - when your only context for "racism" is "bad things that happened in the past", you're implicitly telling your child that racism ended sometime in the 1960s. This is not true. Don't do that. When it comes up, and it will, make sure to point out that this is an ongoing issue.) TV shows and movies and games are a little harder, but also not impossible - and you should bring it up explicitly as well. "Why is nearly everybody on this show white? Is that how your classroom is?" You don't have to say "It's bad that they don't have any speaking parts for PoC" (or "they only have one, and wow, what a stereotype!"), but you should make your kid aware of it, and aware that it's not some shameful thing to talk about race.

I totally believe you that 5-year-olds notice whether there are characters like them. Of course since my son has access to materials with characters who look like him, he's less likely to notice the lack of POC. We do have a very diverse book collection and he watches (little kid) shows with people of various races. Our city is approximately 82% white, 23% Hispanic (of any race), 1.5% AA, less than 1% of others. I would estimate our neighborhood is more like 40% Hispanic, and his soccer league is 50-60% Hispanic. Obviously his daily contact with other races is limited by these demographics. We've talked a lot about disabilities lately and looked at pictures online because he's had questions about blindness, deafness, lack of limbs. He wanted to know if anyone ever was born without eyes so we looked it up. He has never asked anything about skin color, just mentioned matter-of-factly that people come in different shades. I have told him that since he was tiny. He described his biracial AA/Caucasian friend in CA as "the kid with the cool curly hair who runs really fast" before he could remember his name.

 

I definitely know racism is not just in the past. Our next door neighbor thanked us for not being Hispanic when we moved in :(. I think I'll find a way to tell my son about that one--he didn't witness it. Racism against Hispanic people is what he's most likely to encounter here.

[EmilyGF]

I bought my daughter a black, curly-haired American-girl knock-off doll (because the AGD only have straight hair). Her best friend is a beautiful young girl of Ethiopian heritage with amazing curly hair. She had been at our house and telling my daughter how she wished she had white skin like my daughter. It fairly broke my heart. That week I bought the doll. 

 

This is a hard topic, and the closer I come to it (and I'm about as close as it comes, now, living in a 90%+ AA neighborhood), the more intractable it seems. I feel like I'm playing whack-a-mole as new issues pop up.

 

My kids know what it is to be the only white on a baseball team. The only white in a ballet class. To have their hair touched without being asked (my daughter later said, "It is fine if they want to touch my hair, but I want them to ask first.") They have experienced the "all-look-same" phenomenon as the recipients. They go into groups where everyone remembers them but they don't know anyone else because they are the outsiders.

 

Yet, the more I know, the more I don't. 

 

Emily

[Tanaqui]

I definitely know racism is not just in the past. Our next door neighbor thanked us for not being Hispanic when we moved in :(. I think I'll find a way to tell my son about that one--he didn't witness it. Racism against Hispanic people is what he's most likely to encounter here.

 

Oh, yuck. And you've still got to live next to those people!

 

Of course since my son has access to materials with characters who look like him, he's less likely to notice the lack of POC.

 

That's why sometimes you have to bring it up, just get over the socialization that says "it's rude to mention race! you can't just ask somebody why they're not black!" That's actually how I was raised as well, as a white child with no non-white relations. I was raised, even at kindy age, to always notice and pay attention. Of course, my father spent his youth in the civil rights movement, so that's hardly surprising. We also talked about the news a lot (I mean a lot, that was also my father, current events was his major defining interest) and so you can be certain that anything like the situation in Baltimore right now, even at the age of five, would have been picked apart at the dinner table, no detail or greater context left unturned.

[Guest]

I totally believe you that 5-year-olds notice whether there are characters like them. Of course since my son has access to materials with characters who look like him, he's less likely to notice the lack of POC. We do have a very diverse book collection and he watches (little kid) shows with people of various races. Our city is approximately 82% white, 23% Hispanic (of any race), 1.5% AA, less than 1% of others. I would estimate our neighborhood is more like 40% Hispanic, and his soccer league is 50-60% Hispanic. Obviously his daily contact with other races is limited by these demographics. We've talked a lot about disabilities lately and looked at pictures online because he's had questions about blindness, deafness, lack of limbs. He wanted to know if anyone ever was born without eyes so we looked it up. He has never asked anything about skin color, just mentioned matter-of-factly that people come in different shades. I have told him that since he was tiny. He described his biracial AA/Caucasian friend in CA as "the kid with the cool curly hair who runs really fast" before he could remember his name.

 

I definitely know racism is not just in the past. Our next door neighbor thanked us for not being Hispanic when we moved in :(. I think I'll find a way to tell my son about that one--he didn't witness it. Racism against Hispanic people is what he's most likely to encounter here.

Your neighbor sucks.

[idnib]

I bought my daughter a black, curly-haired American-girl knock-off doll (because the AGD only have straight hair). Her best friend is a beautiful young girl of Ethiopian heritage with amazing curly hair. She had been at our house and telling my daughter how she wished she had white skin like my daughter. It fairly broke my heart. That week I bought the doll. 

 

There are two kinds of AGDs, the historic kind and the ones that look like the kids who buy them. Some of the latter have curly hair. You can see them here. There are a couple of dark dolls with curly hair, one long and one short. Just FYI, for the future. 

[LucyStoner]

 

I definitely know racism is not just in the past. Our next door neighbor thanked us for not being Hispanic when we moved in :(. I think I'll find a way to tell my son about that one--he didn't witness it. Racism against Hispanic people is what he's most likely to encounter here.

You do have to wonder what people are thinking when they feel it's ok to say stuff like that. And it's hard to respond. You're welcome might be a good smart aleck response.

[AndyJoy]

Oddly enough, it turns out not to be. I'm not saying that in a snarky way, either. At five, since I knew the girls had already noticed (indeed, had been noticing for a few years) that the media available to children has a distinct lack of diversity, I talked about it - and I didn't frame it as "how silly, some people do this!" but as "the people who wrote this book didn't think about black people reading it, or maybe they thought that white parents wouldn't read a book about black children and didn't care if that meant black children don't have a book to read about themselves. Sometimes people who are in the majority will decide not to read about people who aren't like them because they can do that" or "that show has a lot of white kids on it, but no black or Asian or Hispanic kids. You notice, because you don't look like ANY of the kids on the show, but if you did match them, what would that make you think about the world and how it should look?"

 

By five, we were past "how silly that some boys and girls don't want to play together!" and well into "Did you see that all these shows, the boys talk more than the girls do?" (that was their observation at this point, not mine) and "Why did they make three different types of boy on this game, but only one type of girl? How is it I can have green skin, and blue skin, and skin like a white person, but not dark brown skin?" (again, their observation) and "I didn't tell you Dora is for girls. How did you learn? Oh, so-and-so said. How do you think they learned that? Do you think his mom snatched the Dora doll out of his hands and said 'that's for girls'? Where do people get the idea that this is for boys and this is for girls?" (Okay, that was my discussion, but the point was to talk about where we get these hidden messages that we don't even know we're learning.)

 

I found the media a more helpful way of talking about racism in society than looking for individual acts of bigotry to comment on. As I said, overt bigotry is not all that common. It's not that it doesn't happen, but that is one positive change from the past, it's much rarer than it used to be.

I suspect my son is not quite as far along as many 5-year-olds in some regards. He is quite literal/clueless/unobservant/innocent/distracted compared to most kids I know his age. We have conversations about everything all the time (he hardly stops for breath, ever) but he just isn't as mature/complex/nuanced in his understanding of social stuff as most peers. It is probably due to a combination of personality, ADHD, boy social timetable, whatever. He quite happily picked out a pink sparkly wallet at the thrift store because of the dogs on it. Using media as a springboard is a good idea--he certainly loves it :)! I will look for more opportunities to talk about race.

 

I remember subbing for a K class and there were 3 girls (black, white, and Hispanic) fighting over who could play which roles in their reenactment of HS Musical during free play. The boys were using dinosaurs to knock over block towers. This is one reason I'm glad I can homeschool, to keep him from being in over his head socially!

[Joanne]

Maybe I'm naive, but I tend to believe that actions speak louder than words. Although conversations are important, treating people as though you are colorblind yourself would seem to go the farthest.

 

Color*blind* is racist and uninformed. It disregards history. We are not in a post-racist society. Racism exists, in abundance.

 

To teach color*blind* as the ideal is to dismiss the reality of not being the majority race.

 

It is awkward and difficult to teach about racism and ignorance and bigotry. It starts with getting informed, truly informed, as adults before we teach our kids. It continues when we don't dismiss when people report being offended. It continues when we don't poo-poo "political correctness." It means never, ever using or believing the term "reverse prejudice." It means not denying institutional racism exists - again, in abundance. It means not lauding the progress we've made - because we are so, so far from where we should be.

 

What to DO?

 

1. Be open

2. Research

3. Be willing to search your own soul/thinking

4. Learn

5. Be outraged at the state of racism in our country

[Tanaqui]

 

To teach color*blind* as the ideal is to dismiss the reality of not being the majority race.

 

Indeed. Did you ever read Lathe of Heaven by Ursula LeGuin? The main character can alter the world via his dreams. This doesn't always work so well. At any rate, at one point, at the urging of his therapist, he dreams that the world has no racial strife. His subconscious turns this into a world where everybody is a uniform grayish color with very little distinction in facial features - and his girlfriend pops right out of existence entirely because there was no room in this world for her. There was no way anybody could grow up to have her personality without growing up black in the US and experiencing racism.

[SKL]

Yeah that is basically what I do.  That's a hard thing for a kid to understand.

 

The problem I see with telling kids "it isn't that black people are violent, it's the poverty (etc.)" is that, no, poor doesn't equal violent either.  Neither does fatherlessness, weak IQ, etc.

 

I do tell my kids about insecurity and how it impacts the way people see each other.  If you feel badly about yourself, you're more likely to see other people and things in a negative light.  People can feel badly about themselves for all sorts of reasons.  (And people from all sorts of backgrounds can feel good about themselves.)

 

Do your kids see all these bad incidents by people of a certain race with their own eyes, or do they hear about them from other sources?  Because the latter could be due to selective reporting of only the "bad stuff."  If they go out looking for the good stuff they will probably find it in all skin colors.

[Farrar]

I understand and agree, but this seems like it's a bit too abstract to attempt to explain right now for his age/maturity. He still doesn't even understand when someone is being mean to him or that when they hit him they are probably angry with him! He's encountered some "girls only" or "boys only" playground arguments and has been baffled. I told him we don't exclude anyone from playing with us for being different from us, and isn't it silly that some people think it matters if you're a boy or a girl? And then I threw in--or what color your skin is? He found it very odd that anyone would. I've mentioned American slavery and the Holocaust very briefly. I'm definitely not going to stop the conversation at overt acts of racism, but it seems like a starting point given his very concrete thinking right now. I feel like I have a much better grasp on how to talk to a 13-year-old but I want to know how to lay a good foundation now and not have it be a "big talk" at 13. Similar to how I'm teaching about sex.

 

Honestly, I think it sounds like you're doing a great job. You're thinking about it. You've purposefully chosen diverse books. You've brought it up in small ways a few times to expose him. The only thing I would say... and this is my own philosophy about sex too, but I respect that that's personal to families... as is this... just sort of musing... I think 13 is too late for many kids to really make a difference. With something like sex, kids are developing and noticing and thinking new things at that age (though I would argue just before puberty is better than in full swing) so I think there's more of a difference to be made. By age 13, I'm pretty sure kids have already developed their core views on race.

 

Since no one has posted it yet, I do think anyone who has never read the Nurture Shock chapter on race should. It's available online and I'm pretty sure it's only slightly shortened:

http://www.newsweek.com/even-babies-discriminate-nurtureshock-excerpt-79233

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't care for the term colorblind.  I think most people have good intentions.  But it sounds to me like, "Let's overlook your color."  What if people overlooked the fact I was a woman in an attempt to be fair to me within the context of a male dominated situation?  That is simply ignoring the fact I'm a woman.  It does not give value to the fact I'm a woman.  There are differences.  Not "difference" meaning lesser.  Just differences based on all sorts of factors from how I have been treated, expectations placed on me, opportunities available to me, etc. 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

I read the whole set of Nutureshock articles when they came out. The one which sticks out - gee, I hope I'm not quoting the wrong article! - was an anecdote by parents who were shocked that their three year old was saying some racist things. After all, they said, they spent a lot of time in ethnic restaurants and she was always so friendly with the waiters!

 

My jaw dropped reading that and it took three hours before I was able to close it again.

 

I don't care for the term colorblind.  I think most people have good intentions.  But it sounds to me like, "Let's overlook your color."  What if people overlooked the fact I was a woman in an attempt to be fair to me within the context of a male dominated situation?  That is simply ignoring the fact I'm a woman.  It does not give value to the fact I'm a woman.  There are differences.  Not "difference" meaning lesser.  Just differences based on all sorts of factors from how I have been treated, expectations placed on me, opportunities available to me, etc.

 

Tangent, that is exactly how I feel about person first language. My autism isn't something I "have", some little unimportant piece of me, it is a crucial part of my being - more important, if anything, than my gender! But I'm not going to rehash all that here, I'll save it for a dedicated thread on ablism rather than racism :)

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

The problem I see with telling kids "it isn't that black people are violent, it's the poverty (etc.)" is that, no, poor doesn't equal violent either.  Neither does fatherlessness, weak IQ, etc.

 

I do tell my kids about insecurity and how it impacts the way people see each other.  If you feel badly about yourself, you're more likely to see other people and things in a negative light.  People can feel badly about themselves for all sorts of reasons.  (And people from all sorts of backgrounds can feel good about themselves.)

 

Do your kids see all these bad incidents by people of a certain race with their own eyes, or do they hear about them from other sources?  Because the latter could be due to selective reporting of only the "bad stuff."  If they go out looking for the good stuff they will probably find it in all skin colors.

 

No these are things done directly to them.

 

This is not to say every day they have these experiences.  It's not THAT bad.  And there have been positive experiences.  And despite the negative experiences, I have never experienced either one of my kids shying away from treating each new person that comes along individually. 

[Orthodox6]

Here comes a can of worms, for sure.  I grew up amongst many Hispanics (Mexicans and Cubans, primarily).  One of the most difficult concepts I have encountered during adulthood is the claim that "whites" and "Hispanics" are different groups.  I simply cannot fathom this.  Family roots from different countries, yes.  "Racially" different as people, absolutely not.

 

As for skin colour, Arctic Mama sounds in line with my basic outlook.  People are People.  Period. 

 

When our eldest came home from preschool (maybe four years old?) and expressed for the first time his curiosity why his friend had dark brown skin, we just told him that it is so wonderful that God makes people in all sizes, shapes, and colours  Lesson sank in, lesson stuck.      

[Tanaqui]

One of the most difficult concepts I have encountered during adulthood is the claim that "whites" and "Hispanics" are different groups.  I simply cannot fathom this.  Family roots from different countries, yes.  "Racially" different as people, absolutely not.

 

Well, Hispanic is an ethnic category, not a racial one. Many Hispanics are black, or Native, or of mixed race. Of course, race is an inherently unscientific concept, but as it still has huge social implications it's best not to dwell on that fact. Point is, plenty of Hispanics do not fall into the arbitrarily defined category "white". And it IS arbitrary! At various points in history Ashkenazi Jews, Italians, and Irish have not been considered "white" in America.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

....

 

My kids somehow have gotten the impression that even mentioning that someone has dark skin is offensive.  I said no that is not offensive.  It's a matter of fact.  I said it's offensive to treat someone badly because they have a certain skin color, eye color, etc. 

 

 

This is similar in a way to something I experienced as a child.  I grew up in an area that had a fairly large black population, my school was quite mixed.  I don't think I thought much of it, until we wre taught about racism at school.  This would be in about grade 1 or so.  I found that really sent my thoughts off in all kinds of weird directions, my impression was that black people had to be treated especially nicely because otherwise they would feel badly about being black.  I was really worried about saying or doing the wrong thing, and it made me hesitant and unsure about interacting with black people at all. 

 

I didn't say anything about this to my parents or teachers, so I'm pretty sure that none of them knew that is what I had got from whtever had been said. 

 

I think that perhaps young kids - lower elementary say -  don't always have the experience or the right kind of insight to understand things like this in the way that seems obvious to adults.  So while I think it is a good idea to talk to kids about differences not being something that make people different or bad in a human sense (though not overdoing it I think), I am less sure that talking about racism is always a good idea, unless it really can't be avoided.

 

[SKL]

I'm sure you don't know this, but many people find "Oriental" offensive in this context. The acceptable term is "Asian".

 

People are Asian. Rugs and food are Oriental. 

 

Well I'm using Oriental as in East Asian, not South Asian.  The features are what I'm talking about.

 

Oriental just means eastern.  And, it doesn't have any negative connotations in my world.

 

People will understand "oriental features."  There isn't a better word I'm aware of.  If there is a better word that everyone will understand, please inform me.

[Bluegoat]

Not worded exactly.  It has something to do with their skin color, but not because there is something wrong with their skin color.

See, it's even hard to have a damn conversation about this stuff. 

 

I think the thing I keep in mind with this is that it applies to all kinds of different groups.  If the right set of circumstances apply, you will see the same things among lots of different groups, be they based on ethnicity or religion or caste or race or whatever other way people can think up to catagorize people.

 

The reactions people and groups have to being opressed or even just singled out are human reacitions.  When a particular group seems to espouse a value that you find repugnant, it isn't because they are a different kind of people, it is often because their circumstances lead them to that place.  When we look at history, I think we can see that bad things of all kinds belong to us all, not to anyone in particular.

 

This does though leave room to say "I think the way group X thinks about such and such is wrong" and there are some people that might be uncomfortable with that.

[Farrar]

Well I'm using Oriental as in East Asian, not South Asian.  The features are what I'm talking about.

 

Oriental just means eastern.  And, it doesn't have any negative connotations in my world.

 

People will understand "oriental features."  There isn't a better word I'm aware of.  If there is a better word that everyone will understand, please inform me.

 

Oriental is seen as a mildly derogatory term when applied to people now. I have seen it compared to "Negro" as being a term that was once okay, but is now representative of a bygone era. It has been removed from textbooks. Newspapers no longer use it. I believe there was some controversy when a Miss America contestant used it awhile ago. You may not realize it has acquired a negative connotation, but I assure you that it has, throughout the US. It is no longer considered the polite term. East Asian is.

 

ETA: To be clear, I don't think you were being racist or anything in using it. Language shifts, sometimes we struggle to keep up. I was only trying to be informative in my response.

[Tanaqui]

Well I'm using Oriental as in East Asian, not South Asian.  The features are what I'm talking about.

 

Oriental just means eastern.  And, it doesn't have any negative connotations in my world.

 

People will understand "oriental features."  There isn't a better word I'm aware of.  If there is a better word that everyone will understand, please inform me.

 

1. Well, your world is not the same world the rest of us are living in. As the last link points out, by now, pretty much the only people who use that are either very old or very racist, and if the term is mostly used by racists you should probably avoid it. I agree that this doesn't make much logical sense, but that's how it goes. If you go around calling people Oriental, some of those people are going to be really offended. I mean negro just means black, but that doesn't mean I call people that. Cretin just means Christian*, but that's another word I don't use.

 

2. There is a better word everybody will understand. That word is "Asian" or, if you want to be clear, "East Asian". At three syllables, East Asian clocks in a slightly more efficient to say than Oriental anyway. Alternatively, you can just take a picture. It's worth a thousand words.

 

ETA: To be clear, I don't think you were being racist or anything in using it. Language shifts, sometimes we struggle to keep up. I was only trying to be informative in my response.

 

Quite right. There's actually a term for this, it's called the "euphemism treadmill". You have a neutral term for some group of people, the haters grab onto it, it becomes associated with those bigots, so you start using a different term that doesn't have those negative connotations. Eventually the bigots catch on (well, those who don't blatantly refer to "mud races" and other such pleasant terms) and they start using this new neutral term, and on and on it goes.

 

* Yes, really, but more in the sense of "those poor people are good folks just like we Christians are", not in the sense of "those Christians sure are dumb!", which btw I don't think.

 

[Pam in CT]

My parents (white, middle class) tried to raise us color-blind.  They meant well.

 

 

When I got to college and developed my first deeper-than-pleasantries relationship with an actual black person, and the subject of color-blindness came up, my friend said: "If you really mean it when you say, you don't even notice my color, you just think of me as a person, then you don't know me very well.  Because not a day goes by that I am not acutely conscious of being black.  That I don't encounter experiences that force me to remember I'm black.  If you don't recognize that reality of my life then you are missing, or denying, a very significant part of who I am."

 

(I'm paraphrasing rather than quoting exactly...but it made rather an enduring impression.  I've recalled that conversation many, many times in the intervening decades.)

 

 

To the OP: What should we teach our kids?  Gah, I don't know.  

 

When they were little, my husband and I tried to choose picture books intentionally.  When they were a bit older, I tried to point out gaps and biases in media and movies and encouraged them to talk about it.  Later, I introduced vocabulary like "blind spot," "privilege," "defensiveness," "microagression." Still later, we talked about structural patterns vs. single incidents, how it is possible for racially biased effects to occur even without insidious individual intent.  We go lots of places with lots of different types of people.  We talk about current events, all.the.time.

 

Are we doing an adequate job?  No.  No, we are not.  I try to imagine as an analogy how anyone, however well intentioned, could from a majority-religion perspective possibly impart the experience of being part of our minority religion... and realize, it's not possible.  We can't really walk in one another's moccasins, not really.

 

 

Our kids will have to find their own way on race, and god willing their generation will get a little further than ours has, or my parents' did.

 

 

But we're not doing them any favors by teaching them to be blind to color.  On this,  my parents were mistaken.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

Oriental is seen as a mildly derogatory term when applied to people now. I have seen it compared to "Negro" as being a term that was once okay, but is now representative of a bygone era. It has been removed from textbooks. Newspapers no longer use it. I believe there was some controversy when a Miss America contestant used it awhile ago. You may not realize it has acquired a negative connotation, but I assure you that it has, throughout the US. It is no longer considered the polite term. East Asian is.

 

ETA: To be clear, I don't think you were being racist or anything in using it. Language shifts, sometimes we struggle to keep up. I was only trying to be informative in my response.

 

I actually think it is a big mistake to put too much emphasis on words this way.  There are some instances where it is really the only thing, a word is just really understood in a way that could only be offensive, and that is its intent.

 

But when we are talking about words that have gone out of style, I think it is an approach that won't do any good and costs something.

 

On the won't do any good side - there seems to be a view that the change in language will force people over time to disassociate themselves from the word that had aquired questionable connotations.  I think that isn't terribly effective in most instances - the connotations aren't really from the word itself, but the idea that it represents.  As long as people's ideas are the same, any new word will simply aquire the negative meaning over time, and on the other hand if people's attitudes change, the reaction to the word will tend to change.

 

On the side of what is lost, I think a lot of energy is spent on policing the language of people who are actually trying to say the "right" thing.  Or time is spent arguing about what the right words actually are, often within the community itself.  People get accused or made to feel badly when their only crime is that they come from someplace where the convention is different, or they are older, or they don't spend their days worrying about current pop culture usages.  In many cases there are disagreements, and people become confused, or decide someone won't like what they say no matter what, and so just decide not to talk about those issues at all.  Or, worse, they begin to resent or feel a lack of sympathy because they decide people so focused on approved language might not be reliable in other ways.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ramen noodles still come in "oriental" flavor. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Words matter. It is hardly a hardship to say 'Asian' instead of Oriental. 

 

Yeah I doubt too many people use that word anymore.  That word is even before my time.  And I feel old.  LOL

[Murmer]

Oddly enough, it turns out not to be. I'm not saying that in a snarky way, either. At five, since I knew the girls had already noticed (indeed, had been noticing for a few years) that the media available to children has a distinct lack of diversity, I talked about it - and I didn't frame it as "how silly, some people do this!" but as "the people who wrote this book didn't think about black people reading it, or maybe they thought that white parents wouldn't read a book about black children and didn't care if that meant black children don't have a book to read about themselves. Sometimes people who are in the majority will decide not to read about people who aren't like them because they can do that" or "that show has a lot of white kids on it, but no black or Asian or Hispanic kids. You notice, because you don't look like ANY of the kids on the show, but if you did match them, what would that make you think about the world and how it should look?"

 

Just had this almost exact conversation with my daughter about movies!  She asked about why all the movies had white people in them.

 

Also part of what you teach your kids is what those of us with children of color are teaching our children.  We teach our children that life isn't always fair but that we should all work to make it more fair and there are people past and present who do just that.  We teach our children about the people of color and white supporters who changed the world (and there are some good picture books about that).  We teach our children that their skin color does not dictate how fast they are, how smart they are, or what they will do in the future BUT it does set them forth as an individual just like their hair and eye color do.  We talk about race all the time to build their racial identity, and white people have a racial identity, its a little harder to identify just because we don't think about it but there is a racial identity...its not a white pride thing but rather the idea that whiteness is part of the racial spectrum not the standard.

[solascriptura]

I actually think it is a big mistake to put too much emphasis on words this way.  There are some instances where it is really the only thing, a word is just really understood in a way that could only be offensive, and that is its intent.

 

But when we are talking about words that have gone out of style, I think it is an approach that won't do any good and costs something.

 

On the won't do any good side - there seems to be a view that the change in language will force people over time to disassociate themselves from the word that had aquired questionable connotations.  I think that isn't terribly effective in most instances - the connotations aren't really from the word itself, but the idea that it represents.  As long as people's ideas are the same, any new word will simply aquire the negative meaning over time, and on the other hand if people's attitudes change, the reaction to the word will tend to change.

 

On the side of what is lost, I think a lot of energy is spent on policing the language of people who are actually trying to say the "right" thing.  Or time is spent arguing about what the right words actually are, often within the community itself.  People get accused or made to feel badly when their only crime is that they come from someplace where the convention is different, or they are older, or they don't spend their days worrying about current pop culture usages.  In many cases there are disagreements, and people become confused, or decide someone won't like what they say no matter what, and so just decide not to talk about those issues at all.  Or, worse, they begin to resent or feel a lack of sympathy because they decide people so focused on approved language might not be reliable in other ways.

As a person of East Asian descent, I can absolutely say, that the term oriental is offensive when describing people or facial features.  The use of that term will color the rest of the words that follow, regardless of your motives.  Please reconsider its use in your conversations.  Likewise, I don't call all american southerners rednecks or black people the usual racist terms.  (I used the term black because my black friends have told me they prefer that term btw).

[AndyJoy]

You do have to wonder what people are thinking when they feel it's ok to say stuff like that. And it's hard to respond. You're welcome might be a good smart aleck response.

My mom met him on a separate occasion and didn't know about his comment to us. She said she would have worked her maiden name into the conversation if she'd known ;). She was not raised in a culturally Hispanic family but she had her Spanish birth father's very common last name. She encountered prejudice in her small town and even from professors at college because if it.

[Carol in Cal.]

What I did:

A)  Told my husband that if his father ever used the n word again in front of me that neither me nor our daughter would ever stay at their home again, although we would still visit.  That this was totally unacceptable, and that it's the worst possible legacy to give our daughter, besides which it would actually endanger her if she started to use it herself.  From what I understand, he had a quiet word with his mom, who in turn had one with his dad, and who in turn, to his credit, never said that word again in front of us. 

B)  Had adult friends who were of various backgrounds, and hung out with them indiscriminantly, and raised holy hell when we were discriminated against at restaurants where I knew I would be treated better without them. 

C)  Sought out a church that had some diversity. 

 

With DD:

1.  Focussed on inclusion.  Radical inclusion.  No 'no boys allowed'.  No 'no girls allowed'.  No exclusion at all.

2.  Focussed on love.  We get to value and love everyone.

3.  Read and talked about some specific books very early.  These included "The Sneetches" and "All of the Colors of the Earth".  Made sure that picture books were inclusive, to the extent of hunting for a variety.  Also hunted up diverse dolls.

4.  Had friends of all kinds.

5.  And kept going that way.  That was all at the preschool level.  It gets harder later, but with determination it can be kept up.

6.  Explicitly taught why certain phrases or words or actions would be considered insulting even if they were not meant that way, and needed to be avoided.

 

[Farrar]

I actually think it is a big mistake to put too much emphasis on words this way.  There are some instances where it is really the only thing, a word is just really understood in a way that could only be offensive, and that is its intent.

 

But when we are talking about words that have gone out of style, I think it is an approach that won't do any good and costs something.

 

On the won't do any good side - there seems to be a view that the change in language will force people over time to disassociate themselves from the word that had aquired questionable connotations.  I think that isn't terribly effective in most instances - the connotations aren't really from the word itself, but the idea that it represents.  As long as people's ideas are the same, any new word will simply aquire the negative meaning over time, and on the other hand if people's attitudes change, the reaction to the word will tend to change.

 

On the side of what is lost, I think a lot of energy is spent on policing the language of people who are actually trying to say the "right" thing.  Or time is spent arguing about what the right words actually are, often within the community itself.  People get accused or made to feel badly when their only crime is that they come from someplace where the convention is different, or they are older, or they don't spend their days worrying about current pop culture usages.  In many cases there are disagreements, and people become confused, or decide someone won't like what they say no matter what, and so just decide not to talk about those issues at all.  Or, worse, they begin to resent or feel a lack of sympathy because they decide people so focused on approved language might not be reliable in other ways.

 

But it's more than that it only went out of style. It went out of style in part because people found it derogatory. One of the reasons that I phrased the whole response to SKL that way is that I don't think she was trying to be derogatory and I was trying to gently say, hey, you're using a word insensitively, maybe just take note. Not, clearly you've got a racist intent and this word proves it.

 

Honestly, I think people should have to stop and think and struggle through saying the right thing. I think that's important. Not just so that people hear and use the right words but as a process for themselves. Language shapes how we think. Struggling to express ourselves well is a worthwhile endeavor in general.

 

Oriental was a word applied by Europeans. East Asian is a word preferred by the people in question. I think for that reason, it won't acquire the same connotations that "Oriental" has. There's power in letting people name themselves.

[Guest]

Ramen noodles still come in "oriental" flavor.

They're yummy, nearly inorganic edibles, too. Long live the cheap, salty noodle block!

[MaeFlowers]

Color*blind* is racist and uninformed. It disregards history. We are not in a post-racist society. Racism exists, in abundance.

 

To teach color*blind* as the ideal is to dismiss the reality of not being the majority race.

 

It is awkward and difficult to teach about racism and ignorance and bigotry. It starts with getting informed, truly informed, as adults before we teach our kids. It continues when we don't dismiss when people report being offended. It continues when we don't poo-poo "political correctness." It means never, ever using or believing the term "reverse prejudice." It means not denying institutional racism exists - again, in abundance. It means not lauding the progress we've made - because we are so, so far from where we should be.

 

What to DO?

 

1. Be open

2. Research

3. Be willing to search your own soul/thinking

4. Learn

5. Be outraged at the state of racism in our country

nm

[Joanne]

Here comes a can of worms, for sure.  I grew up amongst many Hispanics (Mexicans and Cubans, primarily).  One of the most difficult concepts I have encountered during adulthood is the claim that "whites" and "Hispanics" are different groups.  I simply cannot fathom this.  Family roots from different countries, yes.  "Racially" different as people, absolutely not.

 

As for skin colour, Arctic Mama sounds in line with my basic outlook.  People are People.  Period. 

 

When our eldest came home from preschool (maybe four years old?) and expressed for the first time his curiosity why his friend had dark brown skin, we just told him that it is so wonderful that God makes people in all sizes, shapes, and colours  Lesson sank in, lesson stuck.      

 

But, here is the thing. People are NOT "just people." Who you are, visually, correlates to a lot of things "outcome wise." Growing up a poor white is not the same as growing up a poor black which is not the same as growing up a poor Latino.

 

Being a white drug addict is not the same as being a black drug addict and that is not the same as being a Latino drug addict.

 

Being a white CEO is not the same as being a black CEO and not the same as being a Latino CEO.

 

Denying that isn't "not racist". It's still on the continuum.

[Joanne]

I actually think it is a big mistake to put too much emphasis on words this way.  There are some instances where it is really the only thing, a word is just really understood in a way that could only be offensive, and that is its intent.

 

But when we are talking about words that have gone out of style, I think it is an approach that won't do any good and costs something.

 

On the won't do any good side - there seems to be a view that the change in language will force people over time to disassociate themselves from the word that had aquired questionable connotations.  I think that isn't terribly effective in most instances - the connotations aren't really from the word itself, but the idea that it represents.  As long as people's ideas are the same, any new word will simply aquire the negative meaning over time, and on the other hand if people's attitudes change, the reaction to the word will tend to change.

 

On the side of what is lost, I think a lot of energy is spent on policing the language of people who are actually trying to say the "right" thing.  Or time is spent arguing about what the right words actually are, often within the community itself.  People get accused or made to feel badly when their only crime is that they come from someplace where the convention is different, or they are older, or they don't spend their days worrying about current pop culture usages.  In many cases there are disagreements, and people become confused, or decide someone won't like what they say no matter what, and so just decide not to talk about those issues at all.  Or, worse, they begin to resent or feel a lack of sympathy because they decide people so focused on approved language might not be reliable in other ways.

 

 

I could not disagree more. It does not hurt a soul to change language when a person effected by the language asks you to stop.

 

I once, on this board, commented that the term "broken home" was hurtful and untruthful in describing my family. That, indeed, my family was broken when I was married to the kids Dad. The poster (and several others) insisted on their right to use the term and also it's accuracy. How was that helpful?

 

Changing language *does* change things. Radically, just not at an accelerated pace. When I fill my own mind with words that are skewed towards the positive, grateful, kind - I do and feel better. When that lapses, my thinking and behavior lapse. When I am intentional and kind with my words, things change.

 

On a larger level, when people are sensitive and kind with their words and responsive to the stated preferences of others - things change for the better.

 

I try to be very, very courteous and politically correct in my speech. It hardly takes any time at all and it only takes an open mind and willingness to see things differently and be educated.

 

[Slojo]

So here is a question that will possibly ruffle some feathers.  That isn't my intention.  I just really don't know how to deal with it.  A few mentioned judging people on their actions.  What if you encounter a large number of minorities whose actions you don't value in a person?  Where it starts to feel like you are full of crap when you tell your kids that no really there are lots of minorities who don't try to hurt people?  I know for a fact there are, but I've gotten out more in the world. 

 

Why does it start to feel full of crap? Is it not true that there are a large number of minorities who don't try to hurt people? Then it's not full of crap. It may not be apparent in their lives, but that's different than that being the reality. Can your kids tag along with you more in the "wider world" so that they can see what you see?  If it's not apparent in their lives that there are lots of minorities who don't try to hurt people, then fix that. I'm not suggesting something simplistic, just something that needs attention. You would do that on any number of other issues on which your kids were mistaken. I don't fundamentally see why this is that different. If my kids think it's apparent that the earth is flat, I disabuse them of that notion -- we look at pictures from space, we read books, look at youtube videos, and we build/consult models -- until they believe me. I get that race dynamics are a different animal -- but a mighty important animal to get a handle on -- so for us, it's "required reading." 

 

I prefer to focus on why or how people got to be a certain way. Is is poverty, lack of education, lack of opportunities, indoctrination? I think it is part of the conversation regarding inequality and privilege and how some people grow in conditions that are not ideal.

 

I think this is useful. Those kids weren't born "mean" -- discuss what might be going on. 

Do you think this is true everywhere?  We're in a predominantly white province and, from what I've seen so far, it looks like most people who are from places like Nigeria, Guatemala, etc. are very well off.  I think a lot of them come here because of the oil.  

 

What happens when kids grow up in a place where people of colour tend to be in most highly educated and affluent segment of the population?   

 

And with regards to orchestras - really?  Seems to me a lot of orchestras have a lot of Asian musicians. 

 

The larger system still exists -- and honestly, folks coming from those countries still face racism and bigotry when they land on these shores. There have also been a couple of studies to suggest that the children - just two generations removed -- of African immigrants begin to resemble the lower average academic achievement rates of African Americans whose families have lived in the country for generations -- in short, the racism and discrimination begins to catch up to the children/grandchildren of immigrants. They haven't changed, but their context has changed. I'll look for the links.  So, that's great -- because I think it's valuable for children of all races to see highly educated people of color -- but keep the bigger systems of oppression in mind because those are real.

 

This stresses me out to no end...

 

But I refuse to teach my kids they need to go around living life hypersensitive to every little detail and feeling burdened to try and solve it all, or as though by existing and happening to be pale they somehow are contributing to these evils.

 

The narrative I often see on here and our own worldview of loving every neighbor, especially those different than ourselves, seem to clash. I can't get behind teaching my kids how wicked and awful they are because they are subconsciously racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobic, and otherwise oppressing the world just by existing. And that seems to be a not uncommon message sent in a lot of these discussions.

 

I see no benefit in teaching my children those things. I see immense benefit in teaching them to be gentle, compassionate, fair minded, and unafraid of those who are different, and sometimes immensely different, than them. This is a not insignificant part of why we homeschool. I want to be able to teach them about the evils of, say, racism or socialism, without burdening them with feeling like they must bear a legacy of shame.

 

As I said, this really stresses me out, because the message seems to be that if I don't teach them to view the world as a constant set of power imbalances I'm somehow ruining them and making these problems worse. I don't believe that is so. I don't think skin color or ethnicity will ever stop being a major issue so long as we make it an us vs them situation.

 

Maybe it's naive of me, but I hope my children come away with the message growing up that I did - where the color of my friends didn't matter, because I loved them and learned from them and we enjoyed one another's company.

I'm sorry that navigating the complexities of the world we live in is stressful for you. I imagine it's stressful for everyone sometimes. But I do want to clear something up: if you've gotten the message that to address or acknowledge race or gender or class or ability status is the equivalent of telling your children they are wicked and awful just for existing, you've not been listening very well. You are an incredibly smart individual with the ability to understand nuance -- use it. Acknowledging privilege is not about some legacy of shame, it's about equipping individuals to be honest and empowered. Your children didn't do anything wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that power imbalances exist and that they may benefit from them in ways they didn't earn. You can hold that notion in your head and ALSO continue to teach them to be gentle, compassionate, open and unafraid -- lots of people like myself who think that acknowledging privilege has tremendous value manage to teach their kids those things, too. Both/and works here. 

 

So, by all means, continue to love and learn from folks of all colors -- just allow that some of them may (some may not) find their "color" to be relevant in their own lives. And to the extent that you are spending time "not noticing their color" may block you from some of the depth and richness that you desire from the friendship you have and are developing with them. 

 

Well "I" get that.  But what do I say to my kids when they say black people are mean because every black person they have encountered has been mean to them.

 

I know why they are mean.  Has nothing to do with their skin color.  But that is something that is going to stand out to my kids.  

 

And then how much of it do I excuse?  I would not tolerate my kids being mean if I know about it. 

 

I'd love to find people who are a more positive example of decent people.  Lot of people with major chips on their shoulders around here.  Most of them white, but yes it's true. 

 

I would challenge that statement with examples that counter that experience: EVERY black person -- not possible. I am curious why the meanness of the black kids is standing out to your children. Is it that no kids of any other race has ever been mean to them? What I'm getting at, is that does the meanness have more significance because they are associating it with the darker skin, while the "mean white kid" just gets to be that one individual who was mean to me?  Also, if you are living in a neighborhood where there is a significant number of children who are undersupervised and/or just haven't had the emotional supports to not act out, I'd make a concerted effort to either: a) find some families where that's not the case or alternatively seek out adults of color who are more mature for your children to interact with. Could your pediatrician be African American? Is there a program that is led by an African American adult that your kids want to attend? Go to an African American hair stylist?  Etc... You said you've had a wider experience -- is it possible to sometimes have your kids accompany you on your events so they see African Americans in a "normalized' way?  And while you don't want to "force" a relationship, why don't you walk up to someone in the park whose kids are interacting nicely with yours and invite them for a play date -- worse that could happen is they will say no.  But I just met a new friend that way - she's white and I'm African American -- and our kids were playing together at a park. We bumped into each other again, and she decided to just try it, and we're developing a very nice friendship that way.  

 

Also, I'd try African American cultural events that draw families if your family does cultural events -- is there an African American history exhibit at the local museum, is the Alvin Ailey dance theatre troupe coming into town, etc... not that you would get a personal connection, but just being in venues where there are lots of different kinds of African american families -- at least some of them "must be nice ;-)" and that being "normalized" and having a good time could go a long way to "counter" some of the other experiences.