I feel for Bruce Jenner.

[Joanne]

To me, it is much more heroic when a man (or woman) comes out to reveal that he made a vow his wife (or her husband) and honored it for 75 (or 50, or 30 - however long the other lives) years, despite how he/she felt every second along the way.  He put his children and their stability above himself.  That's a real hero.  If you think every single one of them was ecstatic every single moment of life, well, we are all human, and others annoy us.  Love is a decision. 

 

Those heroes are few and far between today. 

 

My parents were married for over 50 years. I celebrate that and the love/commitment it represents.

 

I would celebrate the same regardless of the genders of the couple.

[luuknam]

Admittedly, I have NOT seen the interview (I am staying away from that family's TV shows on principle). There are a lot of headlines about how "genuine" Jenner is and how he is a "hero" etc to the LGBT community. I read that article you linked yesterday and I have to say that I am somewhat repelled by him - according to his second wife, he knowingly married her without disclosing his intention to transition into a woman. She even says that she would not have married him at all had she known about it. And she talks about her own personal heartbreak and devastation when she was forced to deal with his issues. And then, he walked out of his sons' lives and did not pay child support or alimony (however much Kris gets blamed, in the end, he has to take responsibility for his actions).

Not sounding heroic at all to me. (I have no problems with his transition, everyone has free will to do what they wish and I wish him well, and I am only commenting on the screw up that his relationship with his kids and his ex wife are and how he cheated them of a happy life)

 

I haven't seen the interview either. I think the problem lies in how we define "hero". Some people think a hero has to be a great role model in all ways. By that standard, there aren't any 'real' heroes, as everybody has their flaws and has done things that they shouldn't have done. I think it's easier to say that a specific action is heroic, than to say a person is a hero.

 

I wouldn't call Bruce a hero either, fwiw. I'm not even sure how heroic I think his coming out is. I mean, it's 2015. If he'd come out in 1980 my opinion would probably be different.

[TranquilMind]

The bolded is absolutely BS, on all counts.

 

Tell me you weren't born straight and cisgendered. Tell me you chose to be a straight woman (assuming you're a woman, here, because the majority of us are here on the forum).

 

Show me some legitimate, scientific research that says people choose these things just because they feel like it.

 

Please tell me how you know I wasn't born with my sexual orientation and that I chose it. I'd LOVE you tell me how you know this about me.

Oh, so because people SAY they are "born that way", than we accept it, without evidence, on the mere assertion?  That's your argument?  That just doesn't work for me.   

 

How can anyone say why precisely why specific people end up in sexual relationships with others of the same or opposite gender?    Opportunity presenting itself, mostly.  I absolutely think many if not most people could go any direction, given early experiences shaping them in that direction.   That's what is a choice (though of course, very young people have less choice, and it is often coercive/pressure-filled in those early relationships, leading them to think that whatever they engaged in is what "is right for them", what they are supposed to engage in, so they continue).

 

Who can say, about you (or me - or anyone, in particular)?  You may have had inclinations in one direction or the other (I don't know you or what you believe, or with whom you have a relationship).  But you chose whether to run with it or not, whatever it was.  You decided it was right or you wouldn't do it.  So did I decide what was right.  Then my relationships formed around my beliefs, over the years and now.   Like everyone else. 

[BrookValley.]

No.  Death threats and property threats are not OK even when aimed at ignorance.  That's disgusting.

 

 

Often I agree with you, but I'm putting you on ignore effective now for that stance. 

 

Where did anyone say death threats and property threats are ok? Pretty sure no one said that, and I feel pretty safe assuming none of the contributors here believe that.

 

 

edited for minor typo.

[TranquilMind]

My parents were married for over 50 years. I celebrate that and the love/commitment it represents.

 

I would celebrate the same regardless of the genders of the couple.

That's great that you had that.

Everyone didn't, but they deserved it. 

[Free]

Really?  Do you even watch the news? People are now losing jobs because they believe in traditional marriage, when once upon a time, that was unthinkable, because that is the way the world worked, we knew then. 

 

And I am sure there are people who lost jobs because they did not believe in interracial marriage because once upon a time such a thing was unthinkable because that was the way the world worked. So what?

 

 

[BrookValley.]

Oh, so because people SAY they are "born that way", than we accept it, without evidence, on the mere assertion?  That's your argument?  That just doesn't work for me.   

 

How can anyone say why precisely why specific people end up in sexual relationships with others of the same or opposite gender?    Opportunity presenting itself, mostly.  I absolutely think many if not most people could go any direction, given early experiences shaping them in that direction.   That's what is a choice (though of course, very young people have less choice, and it is often coercive/pressure-filled in those early relationships, leading them to think that whatever they engaged in is what "is right for them", what they are supposed to engage in, so they continue).

 

Who can say, about you (or me - or anyone, in particular)?  You may have had inclinations in one direction or the other (I don't know you or what you believe, or with whom you have a relationship).  But you chose whether to run with it or not, whatever it was.  You decided it was right or you wouldn't do it.  So did I decide what was right.  Then my relationships formed around my beliefs, over the years and now.   Like everyone else. 

 

I literally can't even. :laugh:

 

There's a lot of really hurtful ignorance in this post; I'll have to leave at that. Unless I can rustle up some more coffee. Or vodka.

[TranquilMind]

And I am sure there are people who lost jobs because they did not believe in interracial marriage because once upon a time such a thing was unthinkable because that was the way the world worked. So what?

 

 

Unrelated issue, not involving the meaning of marriage...a man and a woman becoming "one". 

That only involved melanin. 

[TranquilMind]

I literally can't even. :laugh:

 

There's a lot of really hurtful ignorance in this post; I'll have to leave at that. Unless I can rustle up some more coffee. Or vodka.

Nonresponsive.  And it is irrefutably wrong in what particulars? 

 

I love how because I view the world differently and quite practically, I'm automatically "ignorant".  No...not really. 

 

 

[Joanne]

I'm talking about the children who are victims of the adults raising them - their parents - chasing their "happiness" with serial partners. 

 

. 

 

Red herring.

 

[BrookValley.]

Nonresponsive.  And it is irrefutably wrong in what particulars? 

 

I love how because I view the world differently and quite practically, I'm automatically "ignorant".  No...not really. 

 

 

 

All of it.

Ignorant means you are lacking knowledge in a particular area. You obviously have little knowledge of LGBT persons or matters.

[Joker]

Oh, so because people SAY they are "born that way", than we accept it, without evidence, on the mere assertion?  That's your argument?  That just doesn't work for me.   

 

How can anyone say why precisely why specific people end up in sexual relationships with others of the same or opposite gender?    Opportunity presenting itself, mostly.  I absolutely think many if not most people could go any direction, given early experiences shaping them in that direction.   That's what is a choice (though of course, very young people have less choice, and it is often coercive/pressure-filled in those early relationships, leading them to think that whatever they engaged in is what "is right for them", what they are supposed to engage in, so they continue).

 

Who can say, about you (or me - or anyone, in particular)?  You may have had inclinations in one direction or the other (I don't know you or what you believe, or with whom you have a relationship).  But you chose whether to run with it or not, whatever it was.  You decided it was right or you wouldn't do it.  So did I decide what was right.  Then my relationships formed around my beliefs, over the years and now.   Like everyone else. 

 

I don't know about you, but I can say with 100% certainty that I would not be with a woman. I do not find them attractive and the idea of being intimate with a woman is not a pleasant thing for me. I have always been attracted to males, though.

 

My 15 year old is gay. She's never had a relationship with either gender but she's only attracted to and interested in a relationship with girls. There has been no early shaping or experiences for her. It's simply who she is, and she struggled horribly with telling us. It breaks my heart how tough it was for her to say when I never struggled to tell my family I liked boys.

[TranquilMind]

Red herring.

 

Not at all.  We were talking about heroes. Someone said that someone who comes out saying they are now someone else and must have other partners is heroic.  Au contraire.  One who can be faithful is the hero.

 

Exactly on point.   

[TranquilMind]

I don't know about you, but I can say with 100% certainty that I would not be with a woman. I do not find them attractive and the idea of being intimate with a woman is not a pleasant thing for me. I have always been attracted to males, though.

 

My 15 year old is gay. She's never had a relationship with either gender but she's only attracted to and interested in a relationship with girls. There has been no early shaping or experiences for her. It's simply who she is, and she struggled horribly with telling us. It breaks my heart how tough it was for her to say when I never struggled to tell my family I liked boys.

Eh, never mind. Not worth it at this juncture. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well, of course not...you are what...35, 40, 50 years old?  Pretty darn unlikely. I am not attracted either (and I'm old!) , but I DO see how people eventually see just a person through whatever exterior they are looking at, and some decide that the person who makes him/her feel good and accepted is more important. 

 

Something or someone opened your daughter's views to this possiblity being equivalent to having a boyfriend, somewhere along the way, even if it was just media.  I'd be very, very surprised if something/some flirtation or whatever hasn't happened with someone but we will have to differ on that. 

 

*sigh*

 

 

[BrookValley.]

Oh, so because people SAY they are "born that way", than we accept it, without evidence, on the mere assertion?  That's your argument?  That just doesn't work for me.   

 

How can anyone say why precisely why specific people end up in sexual relationships with others of the same or opposite gender?    Opportunity presenting itself, mostly.  I absolutely think many if not most people could go any direction, given early experiences shaping them in that direction.   That's what is a choice (though of course, very young people have less choice, and it is often coercive/pressure-filled in those early relationships, leading them to think that whatever they engaged in is what "is right for them", what they are supposed to engage in, so they continue).

 

Who can say, about you (or me - or anyone, in particular)?  You may have had inclinations in one direction or the other (I don't know you or what you believe, or with whom you have a relationship).  But you chose whether to run with it or not, whatever it was.  You decided it was right or you wouldn't do it.  So did I decide what was right.  Then my relationships formed around my beliefs, over the years and now.   Like everyone else. 

 

There is evidence that LGBT are born that way. Plenty of it. I'm not just "saying" this. The medical and mental health communities, by vast majority, agree. Based on research and facts and stuff.

 

As for your second paragraph, see my first. It's incredibly arrogant, misinformed, and yes, hurtful, to assume that someone is transgendered or gay because the opportunity presented itself? or because they were pressured to do so.

 

I didn't choose what gender(s) I was attracted to. I did choose the person I married.

[BrookValley.]

Well, of course not...you are what...35, 40, 50 years old?  Pretty darn unlikely. I am not attracted either (and I'm old!) , but I DO see how people eventually see just a person through whatever exterior they are looking at, and some decide that the person who makes him/her feel good and accepted is more important. 

 

Something or someone opened your daughter's views to this possiblity being equivalent to having a boyfriend, somewhere along the way, even if it was just media.  I'd be very, very surprised if something/some flirtation or whatever hasn't happened with someone but we will have to differ on that. 

 

Why is it so hard to think that the girl might just be attracted to girls, plain and simple? Maybe more importantly, why is this a problem?

[clementine]

Omg - there is so much I want to type out, but I just can't find the words without writing a book.

 

Have compassion - if it doesn't affect you, have compassion - if it does affect you, have compassion.  People going through this, whether you believe it is a choice or not, don't deserve discrimination...no one does.  

 

I look back in history when blacks were discriminated against - shameful.  I think people will look back at this time in history and feel the same way.  

[TranquilMind]

There is evidence that LGBT are born that way. Plenty of it. I'm not just "saying" this. The medical and mental health communities, by vast majority, agree. Based on research and facts and stuff.

 

As for your second paragraph, see my first. It's incredibly arrogant, misinformed, and yes, hurtful, to assume that someone is transgendered or gay because the opportunity presented itself? or because they were pressured to do so.

 

I didn't choose what gender(s) I was attracted to. I did choose the person I married.

Please produce unbiased "research and facts and stuff" that actually verifies this position.  Because it isn't out there.  There are hints of this and of that...chicken and egg arguments.  But that's about it. 

 

You did (and I did) choose the person we married, based upon a number of factors, including whether we felt like this was an appropriate match or not, given our beliefs and moral structure. Some options are just out for some people.  For others, more or all options are on the table. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

At some point in very recent history, we decided that we couldn't admire anyone for anything unless extensive snooping turned up no mistakes or flaws in their entire life.

 

You realize what this does -- it leaves us numb. Apathetic. Entirely uninterested in the story of the human race because who cares about one person's World Changing Moment?

 

No, it's nothing to us because he was a poor father for awhile. Never mind that he grew and changed and was forgiven by his children who now unilaterally stand by him and support him, nope, he is forever tarnished. He must also be a liar and attention seeker and he only cares for himself, says the court of social media.

 

We do this to our presidents, military leaders, and the average do-gooder on the street. Nothing is settled until Google turns up a false step for which we may hate him, instead of allowing a far more humanistic response of saying, "In this moment, I see what you're doing and I see why it matters, and this is the snapshot of your life that should be your avatar, not your entire journey and all your unrelated sins and mistakes."

 

This is very much a worldview issue, and one reason that I homeschool. If there are to be no heroes and redemption is a joke my children will become too cynical to even live here. And so will I.

 

 

[Halcyon]

 

I can't help but wonder what happened to him in his youth.  It had to be something.  Stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum, though I know people here will argue against that. 

 

 

This is so very offensive. My ds9 is gender fluid--he wears makeup, likes braiding his hair, and sometimes wears dresses. And trust me nothing "has happened" to make him this way. It's his identity, nothing more.

[albeto.]

Something or someone opened your daughter's views to this possiblity being equivalent to having a boyfriend, somewhere along the way, even if it was just media.  I'd be very, very surprised if something/some flirtation or whatever hasn't happened with someone but we will have to differ on that. 

 

This is what BV means by ignorant, by lacking sufficient information. This is a rather old, and virtually all but discarded hypotheses with the exception of people with certain conservative social beliefs. We know more about human behavior, and we certainly know more about neurology, and we're constantly learning more about environmental variables (internal and external, ie, in utero) than we knew 30, 20, even 10 years ago. The problem is, your hypothesis isn't supported by anything other than the argument "I can see it going down this way." Well, that's how all hypotheses begin, but most are rejected when evidence suggests a different explanation. You can hang on to this idea, but it will get increasing push back as more and more people recognize the evidence suggests a different explanation. As this idea is increasingly identified with unjustified behavior, it will come under scrutiny even more. As it should, I think, and as many people think. In a generation's time, this argument will be all but whitewashed, and "Real Christians" will have always believed in the value of equal marriage ;). 

[TranquilMind]

At some point in very recent history, we decided that we couldn't admire anyone for anything unless extensive snooping turned up no mistakes or flaws in their entire life.

 

You realize what this does -- it leaves us numb. Apathetic. Entirely uninterested in the story of the human race because who cares about one person's World Changing Moment?

 

No, it's nothing to us because he was a poor father for awhile. Never mind that he grew and changed and was forgiven by his children who now unilaterally stand by him and support him, nope, he is forever tarnished. He must also be a liar and attention seeker and he only cares for himself, says the court of social media.

 

We do this to our presidents, military leaders, and the average do-gooder on the street. Nothing is settled until Google turns up a false step for which we may hate him, instead of allowing a far more humanistic response of saying, "In this moment, I see what you're doing and I see why it matters, and this is the snapshot of your life that should be your avatar, not your entire journey and all your unrelated sins and mistakes."

 

This is very much a worldview issue, and one reason that I homeschool. If there are to be no heroes and redemption is a joke my children will become too cynical to even live here. And so will I.

I don't believe he is lying at all.  And I do believe he is pretty brave to do this, even though the environment is certainly approving today.    Still, he was a sports icon, a manly man,  not just some guy, so certainly, it took guts. 

 

I do believe in redemption, and my own life certainly was turned around in some particulars from my previous mistakes. 

 

It isn't over until it's over, for any of us. 

[TranquilMind]

This is what BV means by ignorant, by lacking sufficient information. This is a rather old, and virtually all but discarded hypotheses with the exception of people with certain conservative social beliefs. We know more about human behavior, and we certainly know more about neurology, and we're constantly learning more about environmental variables (internal and external, ie, in utero) than we knew 30, 20, even 10 years ago. The problem is, your hypothesis isn't supported by anything other than the argument "I can see it going down this way." Well, that's how all hypotheses begin, but most are rejected when evidence suggests a different explanation. You can hang on to this idea, but it will get increasing push back as more and more people recognize the evidence suggests a different explanation. As this idea is increasingly identified with unjustified behavior, it will come under scrutiny even more. As it should, I think, and as many people think. In a generation's time, this argument will be all but whitewashed, and "Real Christians" will have always believed in the value of equal marriage ;). 

All right.  Still waiting for the evidence for the hypothesis that anyone is "born that way" and doesn't just "go that way", whatever way he goes.    I happen to believe humans are ultimately practical beings and choose to do what they want to do based on their moral beliefs/faith.   

 

And you are wrong.  No behavior necessarily follows believing in traditional marriage, as you would like to believe, because that allows you to pigeonhole those awful Christians.  Sorry, you will be disappointed.  I'm as likely as anyone to stand up against mistreatment OF ANYONE.  I speak up all the time, on various points.  The older I get, the bolder I get (IRL), when it matters. 

[albeto.]

. 

 

[TranquilMind]

This is so very offensive. My ds9 is gender fluid--he wears makeup, likes braiding his hair, and sometimes wears dresses. And trust me nothing "has happened" to make him this way. It's his identity, nothing more.

.

[clementine]

Am I the only one who types out a response, but deletes it before submitting?   :lol:    Too many times to count in this thread.......

[TranquilMind]

Am I the only one who types out a response, but deletes it before submitting?   :lol:    Too many times to count in this thread.......

Nope.  Did a couple of times myself.  Some conversations just can't be had with some people because of how sensitive it is for that person.  On a couple subjects, I'm the one who should not have the conversation, so I move on (not this one, but a couple of other topics)!

[albeto.]

All right.  Still waiting for the evidence for the hypothesis that anyone is "born that way" and doesn't just "go that way", whatever way he goes.    I happen to believe humans are ultimately practical beings and choose to do what they want to do. 

 

In the years you and I have enjoyed each other's company online, I've yet to see you accept scientific evidence that goes against this particular hypothesis of yours. I suspect you'll be waiting a long time. Perhaps your community will evolve, as social pressures make it seem less charitable, less Christ like, to assume non conventional sexual identity and behavior is morally inferior. 

 

More interestingly, if the evidence were to support your hypothesis, it wouldn't change the fact that oppression and violence against LGBTQ individuals and community is unjustified. And it wouldn't change the fact that teaching it to be a moral offense inspires that oppression and violence. There is a positive correlation there, which is why people work so hard to explain that it isn't a matter of choice. It would be nice if instead of focusing on years and years to put asleep this distraction, people could shrug their shoulders and say, "Meh. Not for me, but whatevs." That's not the reality, though. 

 

And you are wrong.  No behavior necessarily follows believing in traditional marriage, as you would like to believe, because that allows you to pigeonhole those awful Christians.  Sorry, you will be disappointed.  I'm as likely as anyone to stand up against mistreatment OF ANYONE.  I speak up all the time, on various points.  The older I get, the bolder I get, when it matters. 

 

Traditional marriage is a consequence of believing non conventional sexual behavior is morally reprehensible and an offense against a Greater Good. So too is beating the life out of a young man and tying him to a pole to die. So too is kicking a teen out of the house, inspired by a dysfunctional application of "tough love." I don't believe for a second you would stand by and watch such a thing. But so long as you support the idea that non conventional sexual behavior is deviant and morally bad, you support the idea that it presents a danger. You support the reason others take their [warped/conditioned sense of] "justice" into their own hands. 

[Free]

Please produce unbiased "research and facts and stuff" that actually verifies this position.  Because it isn't out there.  There are hints of this and of that...chicken and egg arguments.  But that's about it. 

 

You did (and I did) choose the person we married, based upon a number of factors, including whether we felt like this was an appropriate match or not, given our beliefs and moral structure. Some options are just out for some people.  For others, more or all options are on the table. 

 

You are aware that there are intersexed people born with mixed genitalia right...I am not saying those are the only kind of genderqueer people out there..but I get the feeling that genitalia is probably the only kind of evidence you will accept.

 

What is more, transgendered people were recognized as a "third gender" and had their own place in various cultures since ancient times. For example hijras of South Asia. Not sure what you are trying to be in denial of here.

 

[Halcyon]

 I absolutely think many if not most people could go any direction, given early experiences shaping them in that direction.   That's what is a choice (though of course, very young people have less choice, and it is often coercive/pressure-filled in those early relationships, leading them to think that whatever they engaged in is what "is right for them", what they are supposed to engage in, so they continue).

 

Who can say, about you (or me - or anyone, in particular)?  You may have had inclinations in one direction or the other (I don't know you or what you believe, or with whom you have a relationship).  But you chose whether to run with it or not, whatever it was.  You decided it was right or you wouldn't do it.  So did I decide what was right.  Then my relationships formed around my beliefs, over the years and now.   Like everyone else. 

 

Say what? This makes no sense.

 

All our decisions are not based rationally on external "standards" of right and wrong. The Indian woman who has been betrothed since birth to an older patriarch. She decides to marry someone else for love. She knows it isn't "right" but she does it anyway. She is chased down by her own family and murdered, for daring to do what her true self believes she should do, and that is love someone other than who her family proscribed. 

 

I guess she should have just married the old guy, huh?

 

I think it would behoove you to read a story about a young transgender teen whose parents rejected her. Still think it was "a choice"?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2893967/We-don-t-support-religiously-Mom-cruelty-transgender-daughter-detailed-girl-s-suicide-note-REFUSES-honor-teen-s-identity-death-wrong.html

[sunflowerlady]

People here have LGBT children. This is a home school parents board. The things being said here are being said about someone's CHILD.

 

Implying that someone ' s child is who they are because "something" happened to them is really not a good thing. They must have "experienced" something. Not nice to imply that.

 

I like these conversations but my heart hurts for parents here who read these things.

 

My teen dd has an interest in equality for all people and LGBT rights. I am going to make sure I tell her I am proud of her.

[BrookValley.]

nm

[TranquilMind]

In the years you and I have enjoyed each other's company online, I've yet to see you accept scientific evidence that goes against this particular hypothesis of yours. I suspect you'll be waiting a long time. Perhaps your community will evolve, as social pressures make it seem less charitable, less Christ like, to assume non conventional sexual identity and behavior is morally inferior. 

 

More interestingly, if the evidence were to support your hypothesis, it wouldn't change the fact that oppression and violence against LGBTQ individuals and community is unjustified. And it wouldn't change the fact that teaching it to be a moral offense inspires that oppression and violence. There is a positive correlation there, which is why people work so hard to explain that it isn't a matter of choice. It would be nice if instead of focusing on years and years to put asleep this distraction, people could shrug their shoulders and say, "Meh. Not for me, but whatevs." That's not the reality, though. 

 

 

Traditional marriage is a consequence of believing non conventional sexual behavior is morally reprehensible and an offense against a Greater Good. So too is beating the life out of a young man and tying him to a pole to die. So too is kicking a teen out of the house, inspired by a dysfunctional application of "tough love." I don't believe for a second you would stand by and watch such a thing. But so long as you support the idea that non conventional sexual behavior is deviant and morally bad, you support the idea that it presents a danger. You support the reason others take their [warped/conditioned sense of] "justice" into their own hands. 

Uh, uh.  You don't get to put words into my mouth never stated or intended. You tend to restate others' views unfavorably while inserting your own view (as theirs) a lot. Not cool. I have never stated that violence is acceptable - in fact,  I specifically stated the opposite, nor did I ever state that sexual behavior of various kinds is morally inferior.    NO ONE EVER said that beating or abuse of anyone is acceptable and for you to trot out the Matthew Shepard case is ridiculous this far down the road.  It's like me trotting out how women had to fight to get the vote.  Um, we are done with that one, nearly 100 years ago.   

 

I'm allowed to hold my views that non-conventional sexual behavior, as you put it,  is not the way to go for best results in society, and nothing refutes that, either scientifically or in any other way.  Your statement is about traditional marriage is hilariously biased, ("is a consequence", as if it is to be endured) suggesting that people do it grudgingly because Big Bully God forces them to engage in such an arcane act, when in reality, the species only survives because we do things the way they need to be done, for the most part.  We marry, produce, and nuture our young together, for best results.   Others are allowed to hold their views that whatever they want to do is fine, but you have to extend that in both directions. 

 

Equality, remember?    It only seems to cut one way on this issue.    And where is this scientific evidence of which you speak?  It isn't there.  It is what people hope to find, but it isn't found. 

 

But to your credit,  at least you do admit here that there IS no evidence that anyone is "born that way", because "I want it to be so" is not evidence.  There are only people stating that this should be ok so it must be inborn. That doesn't make it so.  That is all I am pointing out.  Do whatever you want and find right to do, whoever you are.  Freedom.  It cuts both ways.  :You won't always get wholehearted agreement but you will get no pushback from me (except in discussions like that, which, in my mind, are theoretical, not personal).   

[Catwoman]

Be that as it may the women he married clearly didn't want to be married to a man who changed into a woman.

I agree with you. He shouldn't have married those women without having first told them that he was transgendered. It was deceitful and it wasn't fair to them.

 

My personal suspicion, though, is that he fell in love with the women and didn't want them to leave him, so he didn't tell them and instead tried desperately to be "normal," and it didn't work. I sincerely doubt he was being intentionally mean or hurtful -- and I'm not even sure he was lying to them because he may have kept hoping he could change and he may have tried very hard to suppress his feminine side. I would guess that was particularly the case when he was a young man, because let's face it, how many people talked about being transgendered back in the 70's? Sure, it existed, but no it certainly wasn't a socially acceptable way to be. I can understand why he would have tried to both hide it and also to hate himself because he couldn't be "normal" like other men.

 

I'm not giving him a free pass for hurting his wives, but I do understand how hard it would have been to reveal his true identity to others. I guess I can say I understand it but I don't excuse him for it, if that makes any sense. I also do not excuse him for cheating on his wives. That was absolutely 100% wrong. And I can't imagine the impact all of this has had on his children. The fact that they are supporting him speaks volumes about the kind of father he has been to them, but the idea that your dad is becoming a woman could not possibly be an easy thing to deal with on an emotional or psychological level.

 

Ultimately, though, I feel sorry for Bruce Jenner because he felt he had to live a lie for 65 years. If being transgendered had always been accepted, so much heartache could have been avoided -- and not just for Bruce, but also for the women he married and all of his children, because there would have been no need for secrets about who he really was.

[TranquilMind]

People here have LGBT children. This is a home school parents board. The things being said here are being said about someone's CHILD.

 

Implying that someone ' s child is who they are because "something" happened to them is really not a good thing. They must have "experienced" something. Not nice to imply that.

 

I like these conversations but my heart hurts for parents here who read these things.

 

My teen dd has an interest in equality for all people and LGBT rights. I am going to make sure I tell her I am proud of her.

Well, it is being said about someone's CHILD if the person KNOWS the child and is personally commenting about some bad parenting or something.  Otherwise, it is merely a discussion as to competing ideas.   To me it is, anyway.

 

 

For example, I feel invested when someone starts dissing her parents, talking about what a great decision it was to cut them out of her life, so I tend to bail out of those conversations.  For me, those are more personal, even though to the people involved, they feel like competing ideas as to how to be a family. 

 

I guess you need to know your lane and stay there.   You don't get to shut down everyone else who states ideas with which you disagree, though. 

[Scarlett]

I believe people can and are born with certain predispositions. Some of those are negative predispositions because we are an imperfect race of humans. I don't believe anyone has to give in to every feeling they have. But some of society today thinks that anything you feel you should be able to do. So there is no meeting in the middle with these two opposite views.

 

I have compassion for people struggling with these various issues. I can have compassion for a lot of situations and still not think it is acceptable to go down some paths. I also recognize everyone gets to decide how they will live their life and who or what standards they will live by.

[Scarlett]

I guess you've never made any mistakes in choosing previous partners?

 

Maybe he married those women because he loved them? And maybe it didn't work out because life is messy? And people change? And because sometimes, when we really get comfortable enough to reflect on ourselves, we just aren't the same person we were 10 years ago or 10 months ago?

 

Relationships dissolving is often messy, painful business, regardless of gender, orientation, or otherwise. It's part of being *human,* and doesn't always reflect a moral failing on one or both parties.

I believe when a marriage dissolves there is absolutely a moral failing on one or both parts. Doesn't mean there can't be redemption, but yeah a moral failing.

[TranquilMind]

I agree with you. He shouldn't have married those women without having first told them that he was transgendered. It was deceitful and it wasn't fair to them.

 

My personal suspicion, though, is that he fell in love with the women and didn't want them to leave him, so he didn't tell them and instead tried desperately to be "normal," and it didn't work. I sincerely doubt he was being intentionally mean or hurtful -- and I'm not even sure he was lying to them because he may have kept hoping he could change and he may have tried very hard to suppress his feminine side. I would guess that was particularly the case when he was a young man, because let's face it, how many people talked about being transgendered back in the 70's? Sure, it existed, but no it certainly wasn't a socially acceptable way to be. I can understand why he would have tried to both hide it and also to hate himself because he couldn't be "normal" like other men.

 

I'm not giving him a free pass for hurting his wives, but I do understand how hard it would have been to reveal his true identity to others. I guess I can say I understand it but I don't excuse him for it, if that makes any sense. I also do not excuse him for cheating on his wives. That was absolutely 100% wrong. And I can't imagine the impact all of this has had on his children. The fact that they are supporting him speaks volumes about the kind of father he has been to them, but the idea that your dad is becoming a woman could not possibly be an easy thing to deal with on an emotional or psychological level.

 

Ultimately, though, I feel sorry for Bruce Jenner because he felt he had to live a lie for 65 years. If being transgendered had always been accepted, so much heartache could have been avoided -- and not just for Bruce, but also for the women he married and all of his children, because there would have been no need for secrets about who he really was.

But it did work.  It worked for many years, as he kept wooing women, marrying them,  and having two children with every woman.  Finally, he's done with Kris (and she with him) and he's 65, the kids are grown  (or close) and so...what the heck.  Time for the next reincarnation, so to speak, and for Bruce in particular, this is what interests him.  Another man might have a different interest drawing him heavily. 

 

Did he live a lie?  We don't really know.  We don't know what he did on his own time, whether he stayed faithful or tried to stay faithful (except with Linda, because she admits infidelity), we don't really know what he did in reference to this, do we?  We know the kids caught him in a dress a few times, because that has been reported. 

 

I can't get to "he lived a lie" from here.  I think he did exactly what he wanted to do at the time.    

[TranquilMind]

I believe people can and are born with certain predispositions. Some of those are negative predispositions because we are an imperfect race of humans. I don't believe anyone has to give in to every feeling they have. But some of society today thinks that anything you feel you should be able to do. So there is no meeting in the middle with these two opposite views.

 

I have compassion for people struggling with these various issues. I can have compassion for a lot of situations and still not think it is acceptable to go down some paths. I also recognize everyone gets to decide how they will live their life and who or what standards they will live by.

This.  Struggled with a few issues myself, as does every human.  It's the lot of humans in this plane. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I believe people can and are born with certain predispositions. Some of those are negative predispositions because we are an imperfect race of humans. I don't believe anyone has to give in to every feeling they have. But some of society today thinks that anything you feel you should be able to do. So there is no meeting in the middle with these two opposite views.

 

I have compassion for people struggling with these various issues. I can have compassion for a lot of situations and still not think it is acceptable to go down some paths. I also recognize everyone gets to decide how they will live their life and who or what standards they will live by.

 

I think what many actually believe is that what other people do isn't our business if it doesn't hurt us or anyone else.

[laughing lioness]

The whole "born this way" statement is odd to me. Male brains and female brains are different. Neurology/hardwiring and goes way beyond genitalia. You can hormone up as much as you want but the reality is that transgendering leaves you with a femanized male or a masculinized female. Brain scans (the neurology of the person) bear witness to this fact.

 

 

[albeto.]

Uh, uh.  You don't get to put words into my mouth never stated or intended. You tend to restate others' views unfavorably while inserting your own view (as theirs) a lot. Not cool. I have never stated that violence is acceptable - in fact,  I specifically stated the opposite, nor did I ever state that sexual behavior of various kinds is morally inferior.    

 

You state it is a moral choice...

 I happen to believe humans are ultimately practical beings and choose to do what they want to do based on their moral beliefs/faith.   

 

And you argue that it is problematic for one who disproves of this moral choice to express that publicly.

Let's just say that those who do not approve and wholeheartedly embrace this sort of declaration uncritically had better keep their mouths shut if they are in the public arena today. 

 

I suppose one might disapprove of a choice they think is morally superior, but I wouldn't expect that. 

 

NO ONE EVER said that beating or abuse of anyone is acceptable and for you to trot out the Matthew Shepard case is ridiculous this far down the road.  It's like me trotting out how women had to fight to get the vote.  Um, we are done with that one, nearly 100 years ago.   

 

Now or ever? A hundred years ago juries didn't hear cases against wife or child abuse. Why do you think that changed if not for social pressure? 

 

I'm allowed to hold my views that non-conventional sexual behavior, as you put it,  is not the way to go for best results in society, and nothing refutes that, either scientifically or in any other way.  Your statement is about traditional marriage is hilariously biased, ("is a consequence", as if it is to be endured) suggesting that people do it grudgingly because Big Bully God forces them to engage in such an arcane act, when in reality, the species only survives because we do things the way they need to be done, for the most part.  We marry, produce, and nuture our young together, for best results.   Others are allowed to hold their views that whatever they want to do is fine, but you have to extend that in both directions. 

 

The comment in bold merely a personal opinion. Nothing supports this argument however, and studies that show no statistical significance with regard to sexual orientation and crime are available. The old argument that suggested some studies with weird things like gay men having umpteen hundred sexual partners or dying by the age of 40 has been thoroughly debunked. I can't recall what it is, but all the "evidence" about the supposed dangers of equal marriage, or the dangers of not keeping gays in the closet comes down to that one study some decades ago. 

 

I don't think most people do get married grudgingly, and regardless of what prompts any marriage, the human species can quite obviously survive and continue to reproduce (to problematic proportions) despite the small percentage of homosexual population. 

 

Who is not being allowed to hold their views? 

 

Equality, remember?    It only seems to cut one way on this issue.    And where is this scientific evidence of which you speak?  It isn't there.  It is what people hope to find, but it isn't found. 

 

But to your credit,  at least you do admit here that there IS no evidence that anyone is "born that way", because "I want it to be so" is not evidence.  There are only people stating that this should be ok so it must be inborn. That doesn't make it so.  That is all I am pointing out.  Do whatever you want and find right to do, whoever you are.  Freedom.  It cuts both ways.  :You won't always get wholehearted agreement but you will get no pushback from me (except in discussions like that, which, in my mind, are theoretical, not personal).   

 

I think slowly but surely pieces of information are starting to show a picture of better detail. With regards to transgender, I think there are neurological studies that suggest the existence of chemical differences, but I'm not familiar with this and will leave that to those who are more familiar. While I agree with you that "I want it so" is not evidence for being "born that way," neither is it evidence for "groomed that way." I think the Groomed hypothesis is making way for the Nature hypothesis, but time will tell how well either hypothesis (or a third, or fourth, or fifth) will provide concrete answers. 

[Murphy101]

Do people really think a man is going to cut off his testicals and grow breasts just to get media attention????

I have no idea if that's the case with Jenner.

 

But I don't think it's at all a far fetched concept.

 

Most of the cosmetic surgery industry has many examples of people being willing to have themselves cut up for the sake of looks, attention, or personal/public image. And some do it repeatedly and to extremes. It's not at all a new phenomenon.

[Scarlett]

I think what many actually believe is that what other people do isn't our business if it doesn't hurt us or anyone else.

Yes and some believe that believing something is wrong is minding others business. People not only want to do what they want but they want no one to disapprove of it.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

The whole "born this way" statement is odd to me. Male brains and female brains are different. Neurology/hardwiring and goes way beyond genitalia. You can hormone up as much as you want but the reality is that transgendering leaves you with a femanized male or a masculinized female. Brain scans (the neurology of the person) bear witness to this fact.

 

FYI - there have been studies that have found differences in brain structures of male-to-female transsexuals and female-to-male transsexuals.  There have also been studies identifying brain structure differences between homosexual and heterosexual males. 

 

http://www.shb-info.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/3_falgueras_et_al.pdf

[Amy in NH]

The whole "born this way" statement is odd to me. Male brains and female brains are different. Neurology/hardwiring and goes way beyond genitalia. You can hormone up as much as you want but the reality is that transgendering leaves you with a femanized male or a masculinized female. Brain scans (the neurology of the person) bear witness to this fact.

 

In the previous long thread here on transgender there were quite a few links posted to studies showing that neurology/brain chemistry of transgender individuals is aligned with the gender with which they identify, not with the gender they were assigned at birth based only on the appearance of their external genitalia.  Furthermore, there are studies showing that many people have both XX and XY DNA present in their bodies, again regardless of the appearance of their external genitalia. 

[laughing lioness]

I have no idea if that's the case with Jenner.

 

But I don't think it's at all a far fetched concept.

 

Most of the cosmetic surgery industry has many examples of people being willing to have themselves cut up for the sake of looks, attention, or personal/public image. And some do it repeatedly and to extremes. It's not at all a new phenomenon.

 

 

 

Body Dysmorphic Disorder think Michael Jackson

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yes and some believe that believing something is wrong is minding others business. People not only want to do what they want but they want no one to disapprove of it.

 

No, what people are taking issue with is some believing something is wrong and legislating against it.

 

The disapproval of some should not revoke the rights of others.

[luuknam]

Yes and some believe that believing something is wrong is minding others business. People not only want to do what they want but they want no one to disapprove of it.

 

You don't have to announce to everyone if you disapprove of something. If I disapproved of, say, your avatar, should I let you know? Or would the polite thing be to keep my mouth shut, since it's not hurting other people?