Ginevra Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I'll start by saying this hasn't come to forceful debate yet, but...May 1 is right around the corner. Dd and I spend the day at SMCM - in-state, public and really IMO the place for DD. She almost agrees, but she still carries a torch for JMU (not in state). I love JMU, too; I don't disagree that DD would be happy there, but there's that pesky money thing. Especially after spending the day there, I want more than ever for DD to pick St. Mary's. But she still says, though she believes it is a great school, she still likes JMU better. I just feel uncertain about how this is going to go down and it's driving me nuts. I'm a planner and just want to have it figured out. I don't know how firm I should or will be in saying SMCM is the better choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 How important is money in the decision? Between those two schools, without some very specific factor (promised research project tied to a specific professor, degree program not available elsewhere, etc), my family would go by cost. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I was very very heavily encouraged to pick the instate public due versus a private school due to cost. I don't think it's unreasonable to make cost the deciding factor. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I was very very heavily encouraged to pick the instate public due versus a private school due to cost. I don't think it's unreasonable to make cost the deciding factor. Cost is a factor, but the OOS is not *impossible* to afford. I don't have financials from them yet, so I can't say how big the difference will be. But, by all appearances, it is safe to assume St. mary's will be less. By my ideals, it makes sense to go to a school she likes well and agrees is a good school in ANY case where it costs less. But she is not as debt-phobic as I am, so she would be more comfortable with taking the Stafford loans to "even up" the cost difference. That's just not the way I think. I think no debt is better than some debt if the schools are equally "good", even if they are not equally swoon-factor, KWIM? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Is the cost difference between in-state at SMCM and out-of-state at JMU significant? I think the annual tuition is only a 3K or so difference unless I'm looking at old info. Okay, I just looked it up it seems that tuition plus room and board for both only differs by a few hundred dollars a year. Am I wrong? Has she visited JMU? If the price difference is small and affordable either way, I'd let her choose. Just help her to become informed about both by pointing out sites which can help her to know more about each of them. Either way she should have a great college experience. I like Niche for getting current students' input on various aspects of their college life. Edited: It looks like the site I was looking at (Niche) has old info with OOS tuition at 17.9K while current tuition is over 12K per semester so 25K per year. That's about the same as tuition, fees, room and board at SMCM. Big difference. I blame Niche. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie G Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 It looks like your dd is the oldest of three- and it's a valid concern to think about not just next year but also the years after that. There will be a time when you have two in college at the same time, and then when the second is finished, the third will be about to begin. If the cost for JMU is a lot more, it's reasonable to be honest with dd and make her aware of your worries. How are you supposed to make a decision without knowing financials? That would be difficult!!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Ds's choice was between an in-state public and a private a few miles away. I wanted him to love the public for financial reasons. He loved the private and for reasons that I completely agreed with. There is no doubt in my mind it was the right choice for him. If I really didn't see any advantage to the private, I would have lobbied pretty hard for the public. We can do the private, but it will be hard and will probably cause me to go back to work when dd graduates. We could do the public on what we have saved in his college fund. Financially, it is an easy choice. I guess what I'm saying is we went with the financially difficult choice, but there were a lot of significant differences between the universities (huge size difference and freshman program were the biggest). We went with fit. If fit had been more equal, we'd have gone with finances or offered the amount of money we were going to pay for public and told him he'd have to pay the difference if he wanted the more expensive school. I had always thought I'd say that, but it just didn't work out for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 You have to decide how much you're willing to spend and tell her, imo. If you are willing to spend x amount and she can make her top choice work within that, I myself would not insist on making her go to the other school. If it weren't an option, it never should have made it to the short list, y'know? Of course, there's nothing wrong with making sure she understands exactly how the Stafford loans work. Heck, there's nothing wrong with offering a mild bribe. If the one college would save me $10,000 over four years, and it's a close choice, I would not be above mentioning that we could take her on a really nice vacation if she chose that one :laugh: 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Is the cost difference between in-state at SMCM and out-of-state at JMU significant? I think the annual tuition is only a 3K or so difference unless I'm looking at old info. Okay, I just looked it up it seems that tuition plus room and board for both only differs by a few hundred dollars a year. Am I wrong? Has she visited JMU? If the price difference is small and affordable either way, I'd let her choose. Just help her to become informed about both by pointing out sites which can help her to know more about each of them. Either way she should have a great college experience. I like Niche for getting current students' input on various aspects of their college life. Edited: It looks like the site I was looking at (Niche) has old info with OOS tuition at 17.9K while current tuition is over 12K per semester so 25K per year. That's about the same as tuition, fees, room and board at SMCM. Big difference. I blame Niche. :tongue_smilie: Ah, I see your edit now. Yes, I was going to say it is a big difference, probably $8-10k/yr. there are other factors with this, too. She has a scholarship (albeit small) to St. Mary's. Having a car there is practical and cheap. There is a tuition freeze in place at St. mary's. And there are better housing possibilities in the future which could also cut future room and board costs. She has been to both schools twice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 tly how the Stafford loans work. Heck, there's nothing wrong with offering a mild bribe. If the one college would save me $10,000 over four years, and it's a close choice, I would not be above mentioning that we could take her on a really nice vacation if she chose that one :laugh: Study Abroad is my bribe point. (One of them, anyway.) She wants and fully intends to do a study trip to France. Go to SM - there is a better chance money will be there for travel. Go to JMU, and there's nothing "extra". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor_dad Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Ah, I see your edit now. Yes, I was going to say it is a big difference, probably $8-10k/yr. there are other factors with this, too. She has a scholarship (albeit small) to St. Mary's. Having a car there is practical and cheap. There is a tuition freeze in place at St. mary's. And there are better housing possibilities in the future which could also cut future room and board costs. She has been to both schools twice. I'm going to channel my ignorant/insensitive younger self... I spent the first dot com boom in Northern Virginia... I don't think I knew that peninsula even existed. The northern neck in Virginia and DelMarVa were both the back of beyond. Harrisonburg was right on 81 and was a solid college town. I know St Mary's is 90 minutes to DC or whatever but that would not have been my perception... If this is the issue... Could you offset this by using a small part of the $8-10k saving to offset this perceived isolation? Some summer travel or other opportunities could be a worthwhile bribe if you can really afford both but prefer SMCM. ETA: Posts crossed... yes study abroad is a great bribe point ;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 We have been in a similar situation, in that ds was choosing between an in-state public and OOS, VERY exensive private school. Fortunately for us, the public option is pretty widely acknowledged to be a better school, academically speaking, and that, plus the option to live at home the first semester, and the public's academic strength in techie and engineering disciplines, made it the semi-obvious choice. The benefit in terms of cost was frosting on the cake! I don't envy those of you who are coping with a more "balanced" picture between the options. Best wishes to you Quill. I don't think it's unreasonable AT ALL for you to push her toward the cheaper option as long as you think it's equally strong academically. But it sounds like it might even be the BETTER choice. So push away : ) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 How good is she at personal finance and long-term planning? Is it possible to have her crunch her own numbers based on what her potential earnings after graduation vs. cost of living and loan expenses might be? What if you share your financial concerns with her more specifically. I know there were times when I was too short sighted and inexperienced to make all the financial connections my parents were assuming I could make. Give her a budget for what you are willing to pay and make it clear that anything above and beyond that is really going to cause potential strain. Then let her know you want what's best for her, but risking financial stability when it isn't necessary seems foolish. If she really wants the other school, put the ball in her court. She has to convince you. She needs present her case for why the more expensive school is worth it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Do you think she would work hard if she went to the less-favoured school? When we went to visit Warwick University here, which has a well-regarded business school, they had done a lot of analysis on factors that lead to university success. The most important ones were that the student had chosen subjects and a place for which they had strong positive feelings. In the words of the speaker, 'If you have to get out of bed to write that essay you are dreading, you are not going to do it for a subject or university that someone else chose for you'. So there might be another risk to consider. That being said, the UK doesn't have the same financial pressures on students on their parents: all of Calvin's choices would have cost the same. But I thought I would mention it.... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest2 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I second One Step's ideas about number crunching. She would need to get loans for 8-10,000 per year? Do Stafford loans go that high per year? Idk. I was loan poor, and it just didn't seem like real money to me when I was in school. I was looking forward to making "real money with a real job", It was a nasty surprise when I had to start paying them back and didn't have much left over after loans and the other bills. Maybe you could help her with an after college budget based on her major and your area for utilities, rent,ect, as an illustration. Remember to deduct taxes, and everything else that is deducted from a paycheck. If she is getting loans, maybe she can see the difference in lifestyle she would live. Vacations after working if I attend this college, that sort of thing. If you are footing more of the bill , combined with loans, that is tougher. If she can't make a case for some sort of financial advantage for attending one school over the other, personally I would have a tough time funding it. Maybe this is a good time to talk before the financials are in. Edited to add: Sorry, I must have misunderstood. The $10,000 estimate was four years, not annually? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 So, your dd is thinking $36000 in debt is ok? She wants to major in French, but she won't be able to do study abroad (that makes no sense at all). I think liberal arts degrees are great, but it will be very difficult for her to get any kind of job that will pay off her debt without having done some internships during college. Most internships don't pay. So, she won't be able to reduce the debt load during college by much at all. Does she want to plan on living with you for a few years to pay off debt. Do you want to plan on her living with you? There's nothing wrong with living with your parents in your 20s. It's a great choice--if it is a choice. If you have to do it because you are trapped by debt, living with your parents as an adult can be stifling and depressing. You have three kids. How comfortable with your long term financial outlook? Re you going to be able to offer the same financial help? OK, I'm back to study abroad. I remember you saying she wants to study French. If going to JMU takes away study abroad, then, there's no point in going there. Study abroad for a person majoring in a foreign language is essential. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 OK, I'm back to study abroad. I remember you saying she wants to study French. If going to JMU takes away study abroad, then, there's no point in going there. Study abroad for a person majoring in a foreign language is essential. I agree - I didn't realise that she wanted to study French. My year abroad during my French degree was absolutely crucial. That would make the decision for me (and I would hope, for her). L 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 The $10,000 estimate was four years, not annually? No, annually. If it was that close on the numbers, I probably would let her pick evenly. It's potentially $40k for four years, not to mention she is considering a five-year masters with a teaching cert. (Both schools have that option, but obviously that is another year of annual expenses.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 So, your dd is thinking $36000 in debt is ok? She wants to major in French, but she won't be able to do study abroad (that makes no sense at all). I think liberal arts degrees are great, but it will be very difficult for her to get any kind of job that will pay off her debt without having done some internships during college. Most internships don't pay. So, she won't be able to reduce the debt load during college by much at all. Does she want to plan on living with you for a few years to pay off debt. Do you want to plan on her living with you? There's nothing wrong with living with your parents in your 20s. It's a great choice--if it is a choice. If you have to do it because you are trapped by debt, living with your parents as an adult can be stifling and depressing. You have three kids. How comfortable with your long term financial outlook? Re you going to be able to offer the same financial help? OK, I'm back to study abroad. I remember you saying she wants to study French. If going to JMU takes away study abroad, then, there's no point in going there. Study abroad for a person majoring in a foreign language is essential. She said (in the way an inexperienced young person often might), "I don't think taking the Stafford loans of $5,500 (a year) would be so bad." I didn't respond to that statement, because I am trying not to go hyper about the decisions. I tend to be high-key and she definitely will not listen to my rationale if I go hyper on her. ;) Yes, she wants French, either as a minor with English major, or double-major. She is highly committed to studying abroad. I have not said yet, "there is no money to study abroad if you go to JMU," (I can't say until I get their financials, which should be here within days), but this is one thing I'm preparing to say. Yes...three kids to educate, ds15 will be a concurrent student and it makes me panic! Ds is a completely different ball game; very sensitive to financial choices. Part of his interest in the military is that he feels it is a great bargain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 With a 40K difference for those two schools, I'd be pushing for St Mary's unless there were an extremely good reason for JMU. I went to my second choice college for less of a difference than that - and there's no way I'd go back and choose differently knowing what I know now. I'm GLAD I ended up at my 2nd choice. Most kids love the school they end up at. Best wishes as you go through this decision. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 (I can't say until I get their financials, which should be here within days) I must say I would be losing my mind if dd had to make a decision by May 1, and didn't have her financials by April 18! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 What is it about JMU that she likes so much more? If it's the big sports and larger size and all, maybe you could offer the option of starting at SMCM and then transferring to UMCP or UMBC. She may like the thought of starting with smaller classes and then having the option to switch if she wants the university experience. You may want to also show her what her financial obligation would look like when she's in her first job and what other expenses she'll probably have - transport, wardrobe, housing or contribution, food, social life, etc.. and loan repayment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwen in VA Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Money is a HUGE issue. Money was a HUGE influence on where my kids went to college. But another point -- if dd goes to the school she wants to (ignoring the money issue) and it doesn't go well, it's on her head. She made the decision. If you make the decision (again, ignoring the money issue) and it doesn't go well, you're "at fault". Even if she never says anything, you will know that your decision was the one that set her on a path that didn't go smoothly or well. I say this as a parent of four adult children. I am making far fewer comments as time goes along since I learned the hard way that parents cannot see into the future and MY decisions make things my responsibility, but when the kid makes the decisions I can offer support WITHOUT guilt if/when things go wrong. (I still offer suggestions, but with the spoken understanding that the kid OWNS the decision and I am merely stating opinions that he/she is free to ignore!) Ignoring the financial issue, how will you feel if you make the decision for her to attend a college, but the college turns out to be a disaster due to issues that no one could have foreseen (roommate issues or scheduling issues or friend issues or weird prrofessor issues or.....)? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Ignoring the financial issue, how will you feel if you make the decision for her to attend a college, but the college turns out to be a disaster due to issues that no one could have foreseen (roommate issues or scheduling issues or friend issues or weird prrofessor issues or.....)? I agree except that it's tough ignoring the financial issue when one is talking about 40K. For many, that is quite a hunk of change. If it's not a financially tight issue, then it's no big deal in the same way that buying a Ferrari is fine regardless of the cost - if one can afford it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Yes, she wants French, either as a minor with English major, or double-major. She is highly committed to studying abroad. I have not said yet, "there is no money to study abroad if you go to JMU," (I can't say until I get their financials, which should be here within days), but this is one thing I'm preparing to say. Don't borrow trouble. The financial package might make the choice obvious to your dd. But, I'd be totally stressed to not get the financial package with less than two weeks to decision day. Is this typical or is it a reflection on the administrative competence or JMU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest2 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 No, annually. If it was that close on the numbers, I probably would let her pick evenly. It's potentially $40k for four years, not to mention she is considering a five-year masters with a teaching cert. (Both schools have that option, but obviously that is another year of annual expenses.)Yikes. While you are waiting to hear, I might start introducing the idea that if JMU's package doesn't equal Saint Mary's it could take away the study aboard option as it would cost the family an additional $20K to go to JMU,even with her loans. Maybe she could make an appointment to speak about study aboard and its importance to her major with either of the two schools, and let her decide? Maybe hearing from someone in the field would help her make the wisest ( and hopefully less expensive) decision. Who would give up spending time in France ? Hang in there the finish line is in sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I would have her take a look at the transfer admissions rate at the more expensive school to see if doing 2 years at the cheaper school and then 2 years at the more expensive one would potentially be an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer&Mom Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 I was a German major. I'm so glad I graduated debt free! I don't regret studying it at all, and I think I got a great education that has served me well, but I had no idea what I was going to do with it when I graduated. I ended up going to grad school, and taking out student loans then. When I had a much better idea of where I was headed. Having lower student loans let me take a job with work life balance, rather than the highest paying job in my field. I'm so glad I was able to make that choice. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Does the degree require studying abroad? My dd wants to pursue both French and Russian (and is clueless as to what she will do with them, but at 16 she really doesn't need to. ;) ) All of the programs we have been looking into **require** study abroad for the degree. Fwiw, money is the determining factor in our approach to college. It is why at this point she is looking at colleges we would not really opt for as a good choice. UOttawa's certificate of bilingual in French if you take 3 courses per semester taught in French means she could major in Russian while gaining French equivalencies. Living in a foreign language house on a campus which offers that path is another we have started looking into. We have to get creative. :) But, in all honesty, I think a foreign language major without an immersion experience would be a huge drawback. I would rank that up there in importance as #1 equivalent with my physics loving ds's requirement for undergrad research opportunities. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 You have to decide how much you're willing to spend and tell her, imo. If you are willing to spend x amount and she can make her top choice work within that, I myself would not insist on making her go to the other school. If it weren't an option, it never should have made it to the short list, y'know? Of course, there's nothing wrong with making sure she understands exactly how the Stafford loans work. Heck, there's nothing wrong with offering a mild bribe. If the one college would save me $10,000 over four years, and it's a close choice, I would not be above mentioning that we could take her on a really nice vacation if she chose that one :laugh: Yes. "Here's how much we are going to pay. If that covers it all, we will put it in savings for you to help you get a place after graduation. If it doesn't, we will co-sign the loans for up to $X total. You do the math." I think that more and more families outside of the working class are having this discussion earlier and earlier. It doesn't mean you can't apply, but at least you know what you need to get in. The sooner you give her the information, the better decision she can make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Yes. "Here's how much we are going to pay. If that covers it all, we will put it in savings for you to help you get a place after graduation. If it doesn't, we will co-sign the loans for up to $X total. You do the math." I think that more and more families outside of the working class are having this discussion earlier and earlier. It doesn't mean you can't apply, but at least you know what you need to get in. The sooner you give her the information, the better decision she can make. Well, I have not put it in X-dollar language because the parameters are not that rigid. I have had discussion of cost at the forefront since tenth grade. IOW, I have never given her the impression that the sky is the limit, or that she can go anywhere she is accepted and likes, but I have also never said, "you cannot go to any college that tops more than $25k total per year." From day one, I always said the OOS schools would have to give aide that brings it comparable to IS for her to go there. Still, I didn't want it to come to me saying, "well, that's it then. You can go to St. Mary's. The end." I expect to finance the better part of the education through current income, and our income is not extremely predictable. This is why I have not wanted to say we can only pay for this dollar amount and then it will be loans. Ideally, I hope for zero loans. If business is good and she's not going to a super-expensive school, there may be zero loans. If business is lousy and/or the school expenses are very high, there will be loans. I don't want to say it will be one way and then do another. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennay Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Back in the day, I wanted to go to SMCM. I was accepted but another school offered me a much better scholarship. I went to the other college and graduated with no debt. It was worth it. SCMC MIGHT have been a better fit socially but all of life is a balancing act - nothing is ever going to be perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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