Hozier song--question for Christians

[Amy in NH]

If I heard the tune being played on guitar at a recital there is a good possibility I wouldn't have any idea what the song, performer, or lyrics are.  I'm not all that "up" on current pop music.

 

If no-one is singing the lyrics then I don't see what the problem is.

[Jennifer132]

I do not know the song, but I do have something to add that is hopefully helpful regarding the fact that he believes that singing the song is a sin and you think it's fine. I listened to a talk at a HS conference last year by Dennis Gunderson, talking about the conscience. He said that if our children have a conviction that we don't share, when we try to convince them that that thing isn't a sin, even if it clearly isn't, we can develop a weak conscience in the child. This happens because they then start to question themselves when faced with a questionable situation. They might think, "well last time I thought it was sin and it wasn't, so now I'm not sure...". I'm not explaining it eloquently, but it helped me realize that I can let the child come to his or her own conclusions, and the weak conscience idea made sense to me.

[Amy in NH]

He's on the spectrum.  You need to show him flexibility, not the other way around.  

 

I respectfully disagree.  She needs to teach him flexibility. 

 

The whole world will not bend over backwards for him because he's on the spectrum.

[marbel]

I do not know the song, but I do have something to add that is hopefully helpful regarding the fact that he believes that singing the song is a sin and you think it's fine. I listened to a talk at a HS conference last year by Dennis Gunderson, talking about the conscience. He said that if our children have a conviction that we don't share, when we try to convince them that that thing isn't a sin, even if it clearly isn't, we can develop a weak conscience in the child. This happens because they then start to question themselves when faced with a questionable situation. They might think, "well last time I thought it was sin and it wasn't, so now I'm not sure...". I'm not explaining it eloquently, but it helped me realize that I can let the child come to his or her own conclusions, and the weak conscience idea made sense to me.

 

This makes sense to me, except for the bolded.  What if I as the parent am the one with a weak conscience, and have convinced myself that it is not a sin?    Why am I the one to decide if it's a sin or not?   

 

[Leav97]

I do not know the song, but I do have something to add that is hopefully helpful regarding the fact that he believes that singing the song is a sin and you think it's fine. I listened to a talk at a HS conference last year by Dennis Gunderson, talking about the conscience. He said that if our children have a conviction that we don't share, when we try to convince them that that thing isn't a sin, even if it clearly isn't, we can develop a weak conscience in the child. This happens because they then start to question themselves when faced with a questionable situation. They might think, "well last time I thought it was sin and it wasn't, so now I'm not sure...". I'm not explaining it eloquently, but it helped me realize that I can let the child come to his or her own conclusions, and the weak conscience idea made sense to me.

 

 

I don't see a problem with questioning.  You teach them to ask the opinions of people they trust.  Through time, they come to understand their faith better.  It's a learning experience.

[poppy]

I do not know the song, but I do have something to add that is hopefully helpful regarding the fact that he believes that singing the song is a sin and you think it's fine. I listened to a talk at a HS conference last year by Dennis Gunderson, talking about the conscience. He said that if our children have a conviction that we don't share, when we try to convince them that that thing isn't a sin, even if it clearly isn't, we can develop a weak conscience in the child. This happens because they then start to question themselves when faced with a questionable situation. They might think, "well last time I thought it was sin and it wasn't, so now I'm not sure...". I'm not explaining it eloquently, but it helped me realize that I can let the child come to his or her own conclusions, and the weak conscience idea made sense to me.

 

I think that you should support your children's convictions if the convictions aren't harmful.  "I don't want to play this song, I think it is not a good song, it goes against my conscious" is reasonable.  "If I play this song it will be a sin on my soul" is something I'd gently guide a child away from- because that kind of thinking can ultimately be harmful.  Assuming the OP is Catholic and has the working within the RC framework of sin (mortal vs venial).

 

I think at this point it's not really about the song, it's about how he views himself.  I may be wrong at how upset he is or how strongly he feels.

[Tsuga]

He's not singing the song; he's playing it on guitar.

Ah, I see.

 

In that case I agree he should think about it.

 

Teenagers freak out about stuff and take principled stands. I honestly don't see the problem with saying one doesn't feel comfortable with it. I'm not religious but I have morals and there are songs I won't sing, particularly those with misogynist lyrics.

 

If a teen approaches this emotionally, such is life. Music is very important and an important part of our relationship with the world. It comes from a very deep place for me. O don't think everyone has to be flexible with respect to music repertoires.

 

I'd sing the song in a minute but that's me. I wouldn't sing Amazing Grace if you paid me $10,000.

[LucyStoner]

I respectfully disagree.  She needs to teach him flexibility. 

 

The whole world will not bend over backwards for him because he's on the spectrum.

 

How do you teach someone to respect?  By showing respect.  

 

How do you teach someone to be charitable?  By modeling charity.  

 

How do you teach someone to eat their vegetables?  By eating your vegetables.  

 

 

Same thing goes, triply, for teaching a rigid child on the spectrum flexibility.  

 

I'm not sure if you are a parent to a child with ASD or not Amy but modeling is the single largest part of how my son with ASD is learning (and making fantastic strides) to be more flexible and less rigid.  

[Amy in NH]

How do you teach someone to respect?  By showing respect.  

 

How do you teach someone to be charitable?  By modeling charity.  

 

How do you teach someone to eat their vegetables?  By eating your vegetables.  

 

 

Same thing goes, triply, for teaching a rigid child on the spectrum flexibility.  

 

I'm not sure if you are a parent to a child with ASD or not Amy but modeling is the single largest part of how my son with ASD is learning (and making fantastic strides) to be more flexible and less rigid.  

 

Yes, and I'm also a volunteer advocate for special education, attending IEP meetings and helping write & adjust many IEPs & behavior plans.

 

I also agree that modeling is the best way to teach behavior over the long term.

 

I've also seen many kids who've been given their way over and over and over again and it only teaches them that if they put up a big enough tantrum they will always get their way, which does them a disservice when they have to leave home and deal with the real world.  OP noted that her son is about to enter high school, so we're not talking about a young child here.  If he is high functioning enough to be able to express himself about this issue and OP thinks he could be successful as a priest, then he is rational enough to have a conversation about it.

 

Compassionately talking kids through pro-social behaviors is also a good way of teaching them.

[Laurie]

 

 

My first instinct is to let him pick a new song but that might not be the right thing to do. He will be playing with a group of kids. I'm wondering if I should gently push him to work through his discomfort over something that isn't a big deal?

 

Curious, if you are Christian, are you offended by that song?

 

I'm not sure I understand.  Would your son be the only one playing this song?  Or did he choose a song for a group to play together?

 

I'd never heard this song before, and I'd never heard of Hozier either.  I read the lyrics, then I wanted to hear the song so I watched a youtube from the Ellen Show.  The lyrics are offensive to me, yes, but I didn't like the sound of it either.  I listened to an instrumental version, another youtube!, and although I don't play the guitar I was left wondering how this song will sound in a recital...it was monotonous to me. 

 

(And after too much Hozier on youtube, I wanted to hear a different guy playing the guitar and singing so I found John Denver singing Annie's Song.  I'd rather hear that song at a guitar recital, with or without singing.)

 

 

 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

Yes, and I'm also a volunteer advocate for special education, attending IEP meetings and helping write & adjust many IEPs & behavior plans.

 

I also agree that modeling is the best way to teach behavior over the long term.

 

I've also seen many kids who've been given their way over and over and over again and it only teaches them that if they put up a big enough tantrum they will always get their way, which does them a disservice when they have to leave home and deal with the real world.  OP noted that her son is about to enter high school, so we're not talking about a young child here.  If he is high functioning enough to be able to express himself about this issue and OP thinks he could be successful as a priest, then he is rational enough to have a conversation about it.

 

Compassionately talking kids through pro-social behaviors is also a good way of teaching them.

 

Of course he is rational enough to converse about it.  But there's a time to ask a child to flex and there's a time to respect their ability to make their own decisions and model flexibility that way.  One's self selected solo music for guitar is one of those times.  Modeling involves a lot of compassionate talking.  Personally, that he's even at the point of considering another song rather than rigidly refusing to ever touch a guitar again?  In my book that's a win for him for flexibility. Celebrate success to reinforce what you want to see.  Finding a new song is not a big deal.   It's not like this is a guitar standard that he must learn in order to continue to play guitar.  

[Amy in NH]

Of course he is rational enough to converse about it.  But there's a time to ask a child to flex and there's a time to respect their ability to make their own decisions and model flexibility that way.  One's self selected solo music for guitar is one of those times.  Modeling involves a lot of compassionate talking.  Personally, that he's even at the point of considering another song rather than rigidly refusing to ever touch a guitar again?  In my book that's a win for him for flexibility. Celebrate success to reinforce what you want to see.  Finding a new song is not a big deal.   It's not like this is a guitar standard that he must learn in order to continue to play guitar.  

 

Assuming he isn't changing what is planned for the rest of the group, I agree that it isn't a big deal to allow him to choose a new song.  I would have no problem letting him make his own decision in this instance.  I only disagree with the reasoning that we must allow him to choose his own song because we must always be the one to flex when dealing with a person with ASD. 

 

However, if this is a case where the song was chosen by the group (which is unclear), then I would work on helping him through the situation whether that means he tries to persuade the group to change (perhaps they don't know the meaning behind the song and would be equally upset), or he needs to work through his feelings and participate anyway if the group decides not to change. 

[TechWife]

 

I'm not sure if you are a parent to a child with ASD or not Amy but modeling is the single largest part of how my son with ASD is learning (and making fantastic strides) to be more flexible and less rigid.  

 

 

Yes, and I'm also a volunteer advocate for special education, attending IEP meetings and helping write & adjust many IEPs & behavior plans.

 

 

 

 

I'm hoping your interaction with parents is better in person than it is on the internet. As the mother of a child with AS, your response comes across to me as arrogant. Lucy is telling us how her son learns, which is the basis of her advice to the OP. You are basically saying you should have a say so because you have experience with students that have special needs. There is a vast difference between practical parenting experience and someone who is helping with an IEP. One of the biggest is that the parents are responsible, and responsible for so much more regarding their children than is covered in an IEP. We really do have the big picture, whereas those who work within the education system simply do not.  We are constantly conducting the risk/benefit analysis of managing normal daily events as well as a myriad of unique situations that come along frequently. With all due respect, we deal with the fallout, you do not.

[Guest]

Well I can't say they were that musically interesting, but I listened to the Work Song and Cherry Wine and really enjoyed them. The former is still way, way too sexual for children, but he has a nice and resonant voice. Still not getting the big whoop over Take Me To Church, though.

 

*shrug*

 

For a guitar solo, I think you'd find a lot more interesting music in the genre from, say, The Civil Wars or Birdy.

[TechWife]

  I only disagree with the reasoning that we must allow him to choose his own song because we must always be the one to flex when dealing with a person with ASD. 

 

 

No one here has offered such a reasoning. Honestly, it is statements like this that make it really hard for us to ask for accommodations. It's really disrespectful to assume that a person asking for accommodations is requiring others to adjust to their circumstances. We know fully well that people will do the minimum required of them and that qualifying for help is unnecessarily difficult to do. 

 

The matter the OP is describing is a matter of conscience. All people should be allowed to exercise their conscience - including those with ASD. If this song had turned out to be a group song, it would have been perfectly reasonable for someone who was offended by it to decide not to participate, whether or not they have ASD. If every other student gets to pick their own song, the student with ASD should get to  pick their own song. I guarantee  you that this student isn't the only one who will want to change songs at some point as they prepare for the recital and it will have nothing to do with ASD. ASD isn't the issue here, the song is the issue.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

NM - tmi

[Amy in NH]

No one here has offered such a reasoning. Honestly, it is statements like this that make it really hard for us to ask for accommodations. It's really disrespectful to assume that a person asking for accommodations is requiring others to adjust to their circumstances. We know fully well that people will do the minimum required of them and that qualifying for help is unnecessarily difficult to do. 

 

The matter the OP is describing is a matter of conscience. All people should be allowed to exercise their conscience - including those with ASD. If this song had turned out to be a group song, it would have been perfectly reasonable for someone who was offended by it to decide not to participate, whether or not they have ASD. If every other student gets to pick their own song, the student with ASD should get to  pick their own song. I guarantee  you that this student isn't the only one who will want to change songs at some point as they prepare for the recital and it will have nothing to do with ASD. ASD isn't the issue here, the song is the issue.

 

Pardon me, but the original post I quoted above did offer reasoning that because the child is on the spectrum he should be shown flexibility.  Lucy attacked my position when I respectfully disagreed with that assertion (not even originally made by her), and I answered her.

 

I have four children each with their own unique strengths and weaknesses.  They would each be coded with something if they were in the public school system.  I work very hard as a trained volunteer to help parents advocate for appropriate accommodations and modifications, many of which we have to continually police to make sure they are actually used.  I just spent two hours tonight meeting with a parent with whom I will be attending an IEP meeting tomorrow.  I've been working with this parent for two years - so my services must be of some value to her.  But I certainly wouldn't want to spend my limited and precious time helping people with a chip on their shoulder. 

 

My experiences are just as valid as yours.  In fact, I have not only first-hand experience with my own, but also multiple training sessions with a special education advocacy group and 10 years of experience with many other people's kids, while I assume you only have experience from your own kid.

 

I didn't make it about the ASD; the OP did.

[TechWife]

Pardon me, but the original post I quoted above did offer reasoning that because the child is on the spectrum he should be shown flexibility.  Lucy attacked my position when I respectfully disagreed with that assertion (not even originally made by her), and I answered her.

 

 

 

No, it did not. Jean said: 

 

He's on the spectrum.  You need to show him flexibility, not the other way around.  

 

some synonyms for you: show = model = demonstrate 

 

You said: 

I respectfully disagree.  She needs to teach him flexibility. 

 

The whole world will not bend over backwards for him because he's on the spectrum.

 

Teach = educate

 

You can teach a person with ASD all you want to, but unless you are willing to demonstrate through modeling/role playing and by using the skills yourself, it won't work. When social cues are not understood, you have to go beyond teaching the facts and demonstrate what you mean. 

[Tsuga]

No one here has offered such a reasoning. Honestly, it is statements like this that make it really hard for us to ask for accommodations. It's really disrespectful to assume that a person asking for accommodations is requiring others to adjust to their circumstances. We know fully well that people will do the minimum required of them and that qualifying for help is unnecessarily difficult to do. 

 

The matter the OP is describing is a matter of conscience. All people should be allowed to exercise their conscience - including those with ASD. If this song had turned out to be a group song, it would have been perfectly reasonable for someone who was offended by it to decide not to participate, whether or not they have ASD. If every other student gets to pick their own song, the student with ASD should get to  pick their own song. I guarantee  you that this student isn't the only one who will want to change songs at some point as they prepare for the recital and it will have nothing to do with ASD. ASD isn't the issue here, the song is the issue.

 

I was thinking about this on my way home, actually.

 

I really think it's important to note that I didn't even see the part about ASD when I replied. I didn't find his reaction odd at all.

 

Teenagers are emotional, passionate beings.

 

People take stands on principle.

 

Maybe some here don't, but where would the world be without passionate stands on principle? Come on, someone has to do it, and among teens, sometimes those stands seem frivolous. Whatever.

 

ASD is not a helpful label if it makes one less tolerant of a person's individual beliefs, passions, quirks and life choices.

 

"He's ASD so I can't let him be rigid" seems to be the thrust of some posts here and I could not disagree more. "He's ASD, so he needs to learn the consequences of rigidity and learn to balance that and make it work for him", I can get behind. "He's ASD so I need to fix him--"

 

Well, y'all know I'm a neurodiversity advocate and I just don't agree. Even besides the fact that (a) this is normal teen behavior, and normal and even laudable behavior to some of us, (b) AFAIK, he hasn't been formally diagnosed, there is the question of whether we need to fix this part of people with ASD. Help them cope? Yes. Life is harder for the different-thinking. But change their fundamental personality? I'm not so sure about that.

 

As someone who was halfway to a diagnosis and who IS rigid thinking, I know I'm not perfect and I know that I need to cope, but I don't think my rigidity is any worse than someone else's spinelessness or yet another person's good coping but lack of critical thinking. We all have strengths and weaknesses.

[Amy in NH]

No, it did not. Jean said: 

 

 

some synonyms for you: show = model = demonstrate 

 

You said: 

 

Teach = educate

 

You can teach a person with ASD all you want to, but unless you are willing to demonstrate through modeling/role playing and by using the skills yourself, it won't work. When social cues are not understood, you have to go beyond teaching the facts and demonstrate what you mean. 

 

"He's on the spectrum.  You need to show him flexibility, not the other way around."  implies that the teen should not be required to attempt to demonstrate (manifest) or exhibit flexibility, but that other people should do so instead, because he has ASD.

 

 

some synonyms for you: show = bestow = confer; teach = coach

 

There are many different ways of teaching; modeling and coaching are two very good examples.

[TechWife]

 

I have four children each with their own unique strengths and weaknesses.  They would each be coded with something if they were in the public school system.  I work very hard as a trained volunteer to help parents advocate for appropriate accommodations and modifications, many of which we have to continually police to make sure they are actually used.  I just spent two hours tonight meeting with a parent with whom I will be attending an IEP meeting tomorrow.  I've been working with this parent for two years - so my services must be of some value to her.  But I certainly wouldn't want to spend my limited and precious time helping people with a chip on their shoulder. 

 

My experiences are just as valid as yours.  In fact, I have not only first-hand experience with my own, but also multiple training sessions with a special education advocacy group and 10 years of experience with many other people's kids, while I assume you only have experience from your own kid.

 

I didn't make it about the ASD; the OP did.

 

Schools don't "code" children (I assume you mean diagnose). You should know, given your experience,  that diagnosing can only be done by licensed professionals. You should also know that "codes" really don't mean anything on their own and do not justify services in the public schools.

 

As I said, your experiences are limited to the field of education. And no, unless you have a child on the spectrum, you really don't have the experience needed to give parenting advice to someone who is raising a child with ASD. 

 

One of the biggest difficulties I have with the educational system in our nation is when people within it assume they know as much/more than the parents of the people they are working with. No amount of training/education/professional or volunteer experience gives someone experience as a parent. Parents are the ones that are on duty 24/7 and as such we have to look at the bigger picture, one that involves parents, siblings, extended family, activities, finances, short term goals, long term goals and so on and so forth. 

 

FWIW, I, too, have "experience" with "other people's kids."  The amount of insight and knowledge that provides me into their situation is limited because I am not the parent. In any case, my real life experience parenting a person with ASD is certainly more valid when it comes to ASD than your experience advocating for them in a limited setting. 

 

If you can mistake a parent standing up for herself and telling someone that they have it wrong as having "a child on their shoulder" than you really don't understand where we are coming from. Heaven forbid someone not bow down to the "experts" even when they are recommending something inappropriate! I don't have a chip on my shoulder, but I do have experience and I am not a pushover. 

[TechWife]

nm 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

No, it did not. Jean said: 

 

 

some synonyms for you: show = model = demonstrate 

 

You said: 

 

Teach = educate

 

You can teach a person with ASD all you want to, but unless you are willing to demonstrate through modeling/role playing and by using the skills yourself, it won't work. When social cues are not understood, you have to go beyond teaching the facts and demonstrate what you mean. 

:lurk5:   You're doing good, TechWife!  

[TechWife]

"He's on the spectrum.  You need to show him flexibility, not the other way around."  implies that the teen should not be required to attempt to demonstrate (manifest) or exhibit flexibility, but that other people should do so instead, because he has ASD.

 

 

 

No it does not imply this at all. 

 

:lurk5:   You're doing good, TechWife!  

 

Look, an endorsement from the person who originally made the statement. I rest my case. 

[Amy in NH]

Schools don't "code" children (I assume you mean diagnose). You should know, given your experience,  that diagnosing can only be done by licensed professionals. You should also know that "codes" really don't mean anything on their own and do not justify services in the public schools.

 

As I said, your experiences are limited to the field of education. And no, unless you have a child on the spectrum, you really don't have the experience needed to give parenting advice to someone who is raising a child with ASD. 

 

One of the biggest difficulties I have with the educational system in our nation is when people within it assume they know as much/more than the parents of the people they are working with. No amount of training/education/professional or volunteer experience gives someone experience as a parent. Parents are the ones that are on duty 24/7 and as such we have to look at the bigger picture, one that involves parents, siblings, extended family, activities, finances, short term goals, long term goals and so on and so forth. 

 

FWIW, I, too, have "experience" with "other people's kids."  The amount of insight and knowledge that provides me into their situation is limited because I am not the parent. In any case, my real life experience parenting a person with ASD is certainly more valid when it comes to ASD than your experience advocating for them in a limited setting. 

 

If you can mistake a parent standing up for herself and telling someone that they have it wrong as having "a child on their shoulder" than you really don't understand where we are coming from. Heaven forbid someone not bow down to the "experts" even when they are recommending something inappropriate! I don't have a chip on my shoulder, but I do have experience and I am not a pushover. 

 

"Coding" is jargon based on the special education Code of Federal Regulations and the electronic coding which goes along with the diagnoses in submitting paperwork to get special ed funding from the government.

 

I never said I don't have a kid and a bunch of other family members with ASD.  You assumed that.

 

I'm glad you don't need help from any professionals.  I'm sure you have never sought any services or therapies from qualified individuals because you know it all.  I'm not in the educational system, I'm outside it "looking at the bigger picture", which you can't see because you are too emotionally close to it.

 

The OP asked for advice; I wasn't talking to you about your child or situation.  How can you purport to give any advice when you admit don't know her situation with your limited insight?  We all make do with our own knowledge and based on the information given.  But apparently your opinion is the only right one?

 

Your tone indicates the chip. Rude much?

[MomatHWTK]

OP, I think your initial premise that playing the song is not a sin is questionable.  Biblically, I believe the issue would fall into the 'agree to disagree' category.  If one believes it to be a sin, then it becomes a sin of conscience.  I don't think it is at all unexpected for a youth developing his own sense of faith to take such a stance.  To force the issue based on a dispute between yourself and Ds regarding the sinfulness of the act is probably not the best course IMO.  Your opinions seem so absolutely opposed to one another, that there isn't much room for a mutual understanding. 

 

I agree with those who have suggested that you assist him to work out a plan to determine how to request a change.  Given the number of others who agree with his objection to the song, perhaps this is an opportunity to teach him to better articulate his reasoning.  His impulse is that something is just wrong, help him move toward why that is rather than sticking with "it would be a sin."   I would also follow up with a discussion of how he will handle matters if the song isn't change- convictions require acceptance of consequences. 

 

Also, as  you know, kids with ASD often react with fight or flight as their first response.  If you challenged him while he was in this mental state, then he reacted as I would expect.  If you still want him to change his mind on this issue, then I think it will probably take a lot of discussions and work to do so.  A "no you can't" position may cause him to dig in even more (or it would my kid!)  I vehemently disagree that working with a teen to reach a resolution is "bending over backward."  I would question the professionalism of anyone who used such language in characterizing my child's behaviors or needs regardless of their credentials.   It isn't a matter of giving in to the person with the disability, it is a matter of truly understanding that person's needs.  And remember, he is at the age where his brain developing very chaotically for lack of a better term.  To create positive neural pathways you want a calm setting, repeated experiences and positive outcomes. You are creating a great sculpture, it will take time and patience.  :grouphug:  

[Tsuga]

 

 

 If one believes it to be a sin, then it becomes a sin of conscience.

 

Yes. Regardless of religion--don't violate your own conscience. It's important to him. That's important.