Another Engineering & College choice question

[justkeepswimming]

Humor my ignorance, please. :) This is all incredibly overwhelming for dd, dh, & I to figure out as we go. Trying to get first-generation students through college was enough of a challenge - now dd has added a sport that turned everything on its head as far as our previous research and planning goes. :willy_nilly:

 

DD (junior) intends to get a degree in environmental or ocean engineering. We are making lists of schools that:

A) Have either environmental or ocean engineering. Also making lists of schools that have Civil engineering with an environmental or sustainability emphasis.

b) are ABET accredited

c) have the sport dd wants to continue with in college.

 

Here's where things get muddy.  DD, while relatively new to her sport, turns out to be a fair talent at it. But, due to lack of height and lack of time to improve to NCAA Division I recruitment standards, is considering some NCAA Division II schools where she might, much to our surprise, actually qualify for a decent athletic scholarship.

 

The Division II schools with her sport are all pretty much unknown to us, so I've been doing a ton of research. Before this point, she was either going to one of the two state universities who have her major (but are Division I & only 1 has her sport. Although she will apply there, she will probably not qualify for a scholarship due to her being about 1" too short to really excite the coaches and might have to risk being a walk-on to the sport) -- or applying to the Naval or CG Academy.  Now that she's fallen head-over-heels in love with her sport (she lives, breathes, dreams, and eats sport and team and practice...), it changed everything.

 

As an Engineering major (finally getting to my question!!) - how important is it WHERE you get your degree?? While she could apply to some better-known engineering schools, it's less likely she could be on a team. The better chances for her to be on a team are at the smaller schools. The reviews I'm reading for these schools are all over the place (which seems par for the course for many of the smaller schools on the list).

 

She is in contact with 1 of the UCs that have her sport, but it has Enviro Engineering listed as a restricted major. She apparently can't apply for this major until after her 2nd year (or something like that) - and if she's not accepted, she'll have to choose another major. We don't want to risk that, even though these schools are among the highest-ranked on her sports list, and even though she would likely be a strong candidate for that major.

 

So confusing! We need to know where to prioritize! She won't be a happy human being if she isn't on a team (and this isn't a sport she can do recreationally on her own), but even though she's looked at and considered other majors... Enviro or Ocean engineering is very much where her passion lies as far as a lifelong career.

 

I know someone here can help us navigate this. :) Help! :D If she doesn't have an engineering degree from MIT, she will still be okay, right?

 

Oh - and if we find that at one college only 37-43% of students graduate in 4 years... that is not good, right? This is at one college she is really interested in (coach is interested in her, the school is near family even though it is far away from us...).

[mommysanders]

Hello! I can share based on my own experience...

 

I have an Electrical Engineering degree and was hired to work for a major oil and gas company. After working for said company for a time, I was also on their recruiting team. So I can share a bit about how that company recruits.

 

First off, they only recruited from choice colleges. They decided which college was worth recruiting from by their reputation and their dedication to a good quality degree.

At the colleges that meet those standards, the company would only interview students with a GPA of 3.5 or higher and they preferred closer to the 4.0. They also liked applicants that were involved in extracurricular activities. Sports, student government, school newspaper, etc. Perks to the applicant who was also in a leadership role.

So from my perspective I think it definitely matters what college you go to. A college with low standards and not a great reputation is probably not going to provide your child with a quality degree, and companies know that. That being said, it doesn't mean that every student who graduates front that college isn't worth hiring. But if you're comparing an applicant from a great college and a not-as-good college, the one from the not-as-good college better have a lot of good stuff on their resume in order to compete. And you bet your socks they better have top notch grades.

 

I'm not sure what to say about the percentage of students that graduate in 4 years. My college was a very tough college, and for this reason some students took a slower pace.

 

I recommend looking at some of the stats the school has for their graduates. Things like percent of graduates who have a job lined up, starting salary, etc. You can also look at rankings of colleges. Since you have decided in engineering, look at rankings for engineering degrees.

 

My advice is to keep in mind the end goal. You want your child to get a good job. Sports take second seat to that. If she does play a sport, she better be on top of her classes/grades because they often suffer.

 

Did that help at all? You can ask me more if you want.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[snowbeltmom]

I would be cautious about playing a Div I sport and majoring in engineering.  Many of the engineering labs are held in the afternoons and conflict with practice and competitions.  I personally know of kids who had to switch majors because the coach would not permit them to skip practice in order to go to their lab. 

[MarkT]

I am from the "you are only young once" school of thought. Your DD may consider pursuing her sports dream at a school that has strong math and science programs and transfer later on. Especially if she gets an athletic scholarship.

 

Some liberal arts schools have defined 3/2 programs in Engineering.

 

I think some folks here may be a little too obsessed with attending only elite colleges.

[Teachin'Mine]

I agree with others that team sports and engineering are a tough mix.  As I personally would consider the academics a priority, I would encourage looking at good engineering schools with a good club team.  Obviously there wouldn't be an athletic scholarship, but the sport wouldn't conflict with the academics either.  Some athletes are able to handle a major sports commitment by taking fewer and lighter courses during the semester they're playing, but I don't see how that would be possible with engineering.  And if she gets a scholarship, she'll have no choice but to continue with the sport if she doesn't want to lose the scholarship.  I'd be asking her to consider what's most important.  She may decide that the sport is.  No idea what my advice would be then.  : P

[mommysanders]

I am from the "you are only young once" school of thought. Your DD may consider pursuing her sports dream at a school that has strong math and science programs and transfer later on. Especially if she gets an athletic scholarship.

 

Some liberal arts schools have defined 3/2 programs in Engineering.

 

I think some folks here may be a little too obsessed with attending only elite colleges.

 

I just want to clarify that the school I went to was a Div 2 school, but it's top of the charts for Engineering. It's not Ivy league, but you bet a company looking for engineering has heard of my school. That's why I say to look at how the school ranks for engineering.

[8filltheheart]

I know nothing about environmental or ocean engineering. I would call some HR depts and ask where they recruit grads and research university websites for who is showing up for their job fairs.

 

My dh and oldest ds are both chemEs and our experience is completely contrary to mommysanders. GPA, coop experience, and recommendations have mattered. No one outside of our area had heard of Ds's school, but industry recruits there and respects its grads. It matters what industry thinks, not USNWR thinks.

[Wildcat]

I would be cautious about playing a Div I sport and majoring in engineering.  Many of the engineering labs are held in the afternoons and conflict with practice and competitions.  I personally know of kids who had to switch majors because the coach would not permit them to skip practice in order to go to their lab. 

 

This. And it's not just engineering labs that are in the evenings, but 'regular' ones like bio and chem are also in the evenings at many (most?) schools.

 

I am from the "you are only young once" school of thought. Your DD may consider pursuing her sports dream at a school that has strong math and science programs and transfer later on. Especially if she gets an athletic scholarship.

 

Some liberal arts schools have defined 3/2 programs in Engineering.

 

I think some folks here may be a little too obsessed with attending only elite colleges.

 

Transferring is a good idea if the sport if important, especially if a scholarship helps pay for the first couple of years.

 

Regarding the part I bolded ---  I see it in my circle of real life friends, too. We don't understand it, as the State U and the U "down the street" are great.

[justkeepswimming]

Thank you for the input so far!! One piece of major info that may be helpful: (PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE, I will delete this part later. It's too identifying)

Her sport practices in the mornings - usually somewhere between 5-7 in the morning. Every morning. Year round. We've discovered that It's actually a pretty common sport for engineers, even at the elite schools. :) The teams are often stacked with engineering and pre-med students. The lack of afternoon/evening practices must explain a good part of that.

So, does that info change anyone's responses since she won't have evening practices to juggle (although it is year-round, so it's difficult to schedule an "easy" semester even if that were possible)? She will just have to get to bed early as often as she can... But rowers are pretty used to that.

[justkeepswimming]

So- WHAT information do we look for to determine if a school is "good enough?"

I see mentions of finding where their students are hired. Is there a specific way to find this out? ( sorry if someone said already, I'm reading on my phone and often skip parts accidentally cut will read through everything again later on the computer).

Two division II schools are so expensive, we are hoping the merit aid could cover half and the athletic would cover much of what's left. ... But we are just figuring this out as we muddle along.

[plansrme]

Does she have enough DE or AP credits to graduate in three years? One option my daughter considered was spending three years on an undergrad degree at a school that did not have her major and then getting a one-year master's in one that did. She was considering nuclear engineering at the time and would have gotten a B.S. in physics and done a twelve- to eighteen-month master's in NE. I know nothing about enviro, but several of the engineering masters' problems I looked at were pretty upfront about students needing undergrad degrees in another engineering field, math or a hard science, but it did not really seem to matter which of those.

[Teachin'Mine]

I was guessing volleyball.  lol  If she's able to do the early morning practices after late night p-sets, then yes that does change the situation IMO.  I'd also have her check with the coaches as far as how time intensive the meets (is that the right word?) or races are.  Do they compete with local colleges or is there a good bit of travel involved?  Those are some of the questions she'll likely be asking. 

 

I'd also explore more about the restricted major status at the UC.  Is it just determined by overall GPA or GPA in related areas of study?  What percentage of those applying for it are accepted?   UCs are a great bargain for in-state students.  I wouldn't just dismiss that option without knowing her chances there. 

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Just after a brief search, I'd look at Carnegie Mellon, Lehigh, Villanova, Rutgers and Cornell. 

[justkeepswimming]

Y'all are awesome!! Thank you for the starting points. We are just being inundated with information and that makes it so overwhelming. Seems that everything is equally important! lol

 

The UCs aren't in-state for us, so pretty expensive. 😠I'll have dd find out more info re the restricted major situation, though.

[EKS]

 

I know someone here can help us navigate this. :) Help! :D If she doesn't have an engineering degree from MIT, she will still be okay, right?

 

Oh - and if we find that at one college only 37-43% of students graduate in 4 years... that is not good, right? This is at one college she is really interested in (coach is interested in her, the school is near family even though it is far away from us...).

 

If she doesn't go to MIT, she will be all right.  I promise.  In fact, it creates a lot of unnecessary stress to shoot for MIT when the student is not MIT material (ask me how I know).

 

The best thing you can do is to find maybe 10 schools that have a good program in her field(s) of interest and the sport she wants.  Then look at those schools carefully in terms of other factors like freshman retention rate and graduation rate and how they "feel" to her.  If you can, visit.  Hopefully, after this process, she'll have list of schools that she would love to attend.

[Teachin'Mine]

Syracuse is another.  Smith has environmental science and policy but other engineering programs.

 

I'd look for in-state options which are affordable even without an athletic scholarship.  That would give her the option to join the team, and the ability to opt out if she wants to devote more time to academics.

 

Here's a link so some top ocean engineering programs.  http://study.com/articles/List_of_Top_Ocean_Engineering_Schools_and_Colleges.html

[mommysanders]

Totally agree that she doesn't need to go to MIT, although it is a good school. As for finding where the University graduates get hired, I wonder if the admission office would be able to help you with that. I'm sure they track it somehow.

 

I also think it's a good idea to shoot for a scholarship, because having less debt after graduation is always helpful. Morning practices are ideal, so she may be just fine. I'm sure there will be times when her meets or practices overlap with something, but my experience says professors are willing to have makeup times for athletes. However, that's a good question to ask the Universities you're looking at.

 

Visiting a few places may help make a decision as well.

[mommysanders]

Just thought of this. The Society of Women Engineers (SWE) gives scholarships. You should have a local level and then there's national level. There will also be chapters at he different universities. Definitely worth checking.

 

 

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[Lanny]

<snip>

As an Engineering major (finally getting to my question!!) - how important is it WHERE you get your degree?? While she could apply to some better-known engineering schools, it's less likely she could be on a team. The better chances for her to be on a team are at the smaller schools. The reviews I'm reading for these schools are all over the place (which seems par for the course for many of the smaller schools on the list).

 

<snip>

 

Extremely important!   She doesn't need to go to M.I.T., but the major corporations and the government agencies and the military strongly prefer graduates of universities that are near the top of the rankings for the particular major.  

 

This was years ago, but I must assume it still is true: I went to the N.W., to work under contract to a major aerospace company, on a government project.  After I was there awhile, someone told me they had a list of about 50 universities and if someone wasn't a graduate of one of those universities, their badge did not say "engineer".  I don't have a degree, but my badge had "engineer" on it.

 

Tech apparently offers an M.S. in Environmental:

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/ceweb/

[Lanny]

Follow on: I've read several of the replies now. Yes, I would agree, strongly, that participating in a sport, while an Engineering major is a tough load to carry. Engineering, by itself, is very tough.  That said, on this URL, where I searched, to see if Environmental Engineering is offered at Tech, they have a photo of a young lady who is a Civil Engineering Major and she is  a Center on the women's basketball team. (The photos at the top of that page rotate)  http://www.depts.ttu.edu/ceweb/

 

Engineering and Medical school students don't get much sleep and I doubt that young lady gets a lot of sleep.

[amy58103]

For Civil Engineering, its sort-of important where you go, but not super critical.  As long as the program is ABET certified, she should be fine.  And no, she doesn’t need to go to M.I.T. !!

 

In today’s market, co-op/internship experience is often more important in landing a job post-graduation than school name.  So, I would look for schools that have a strong co-op program.  At some schools these are built right into the program (eg. Drexel University).  But more often than not, students work at co-ops during summer breaks.  Look at the college’s Career Services Center for what help they offer.  Do they have a list of local engineering firms / public agency’s that often hire co-ops?  Do they sponsor on-campus career fares specifically for engineering majors?  Also schools that have good co-op programs usually advertise that.  If you have to search for information, that’s generally not a good sign.

 

Most civil engineers work for private consulting firms (oil/gas companies usually hire the private consulting firm to do their civil/environmental work) or public agencies (eg. DOT, DEP, USACE).  And the tendency at both is to hire local.  So, even if your school doesn’t have a large “national†presence, if it has a good local reputation it shouldn’t be a problem.  How do you know if a school has a good reputation … I’d probably start by looking at the resumes of some local engineers to see where they went (these are often on a company’s website).  On the flip side of this, if you go to a school across the country it can be harder (but NOT impossible) to get a job close to home. 

 

Another sign of a good engineering program is that they offer a 5-year program that leads to a master’s degree.  (And I HIGHLY recommend going down this path if it is an option!)  Masters degrees are becoming increasingly important in civil engineering, and in another 10 years may become a requirement.  If she absolutely falls in love with a college that doesn’t have a strong engineering program, she can always do her undergraduate at one college and then go to a bigger name college for her Masters degree.  As long as she has a good GPA, she should have no trouble getting into a graduate program.  (And for engineering she should be able to get some kind of stipend to help with the cost of the graduate degree.)

 

I would also look to see if they have an active student chapter of ASCE (American Society of Civil Engineers) on campus.  One that participates in the yearly Steel Bridge, Concrete Canoe, and/or GeoWall competitions. 

 

As for the debate that came up about whether she should play a sport and major in engineering … PLEASE IGNORE THIS !!!!!!   I’ve known plenty of people that were student athletes with engineering majors.  It is totally doable. 

 

Let me know if I can help with any other questions.  I love supporting future engineers.  :)

[snowbeltmom]

 

 

As for the debate that came up about whether she should play a sport and major in engineering … PLEASE IGNORE THIS !!!!!!   I’ve known plenty of people that were student athletes with engineering majors.  It is totally doable. 

 

 

No one has said that she shouldn't play a sport and major in engineering.  The caution is playing a sport for a Div I school and majoring in engineering.  That combination is literally impossible at some Div I schools.  Unfortunately, the students are not always informed of this conflict until they arrive on campus and are told that in order to keep their athletic scholarship, they will have to switch majors.   

[AFwife Claire]

No one has said that she shouldn't play a sport and major in engineering.  The caution is playing a sport for a Div I school and majoring in engineering.  That combination is literally impossible at some Div I schools.  Unfortunately, the students are not always informed of this conflict until they arrive on campus and are told that in order to keep their athletic scholarship, they will have to switch majors.   

So this makes me think she really should consider a military academy.  There she will have to participate in sports, either intercollegiate or intramural, as does every other cadet, so labs, etc. won't have the scheduling problems there would be at other universities.  Many cadets are engineering majors, and even the ones who aren't still have to take a series of core STEM classes.  And even if later she decided she didn't want to actually compete intercollegiately, she would not be kicked out or have to pay a single cent.  She would just then be a regular cadet who now had to participate in some intramural sport every day.

[Mama Geek]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but years ago an environmental engineering degree was a master's degree and usually an extension of the civil engineering departments, so you would get your Bachelor's in Civil and then get your Master's in environmental.  I think ocean engineering was the same way.  I would look into what jobs require for education before going to a school that offered either of those as a Bachelor's program.

[justkeepswimming]

There are many schools who now offer enviro and ocean engineering as bachelor's degrees. She will most likely continue and pursue a master's degree. Others only have civil degree programs, which she would do if she loved the school.

 

She already has verbal contacts with a few local people in positions to hire her after she graduates and have said they would do so with a Bachelors. (She is not counting on those offers, of course, as they are just casual discussions at this point, just using that information to gauge her future options against).

 

Some of the schools do offer the masters-in-5 program and she's looking into that.

 

Still reading on my phone, so will read more tonight on the computer when I can read every word.

 

Thank you for the discussion and input!!

[Sunshine State Sue]

Years ago, I knew a lady who homeschooled her 5 children.  One went to Florida Instititute of Technology in (maybe Civil?) Engineering and the dd was very happy with the education she received there.  She actually got her AA degree while dual enrolled at CC then transfered to FIT.  I remember mom saying that a large percentage of the engineers pass the PE exam.  Hope I got that right.  Anyway, I got a favorable impression of the school.

 

Ds was accepted at FIT.  He applied there as a back-up where he could possibly walk on to the basketball team.  The coach never expressed an interest.  I will admit that I am an academic snob and am glad about where he landed because imo it's a better school academically.  I will say that, at least at ds's D2 school, the school accommodates the student athletes well, and I feel like it is an appropriate balance of academics and athletics.  I spent many, many, many hours checking out the majors of the basketball players at various schools.  FIT's basketball team had few engineers.  That might not be as much of an issue with your dd's sport.

 

Good luck! 

[Sunshine State Sue]

Sue, did your ds head back today? The house seems quiet with ours gone. He had car troubles on the way, but finally made it. 

 

He never came home for spring break.  Basketball practice and a game in TX on Saturday.  They lost.  They are done for the season.  I expect to see him in May for a short period of time before he heads back for a summer job.

 

[snowbeltmom]

So this makes me think she really should consider a military academy.  There she will have to participate in sports, either intercollegiate or intramural, as does every other cadet, so labs, etc. won't have the scheduling problems there would be at other universities.  Many cadets are engineering majors, and even the ones who aren't still have to take a series of core STEM classes.  And even if later she decided she didn't want to actually compete intercollegiately, she would not be kicked out or have to pay a single cent.  She would just then be a regular cadet who now had to participate in some intramural sport every day.

It sounds like the conflict might not exist with crew since the practices are in the morning. (Unless the competitions are in the afternoon- I know absolutely nothing about crew).  

 

A student that wanted to major in engineering could also play for a Div II or Div III school.  From our experience and discussions with other parents, academics come first with most Div II and Div III schools. 

 

The time commitment is also much less at a non-Division I school.  When we were investigating options, the coaches at the Div I schools all told us that the weekday practice commitment was 4 hours every day, plus more hours on the weekends due to travel and match play. 

 

While we didn't speak personally with any Div II schools, the time commitment for the Div III schools was just 2 hours per weekday, with a lighter competition season as well. 

[Lolly]

Note on the morning practices... While it seems like the logical choice to make everything work, it doesn't always. Dd's coach has switched to the main practices being in the a.m. so as to keep class interference at a minimum. It does NOT work for my dd. After getting up and doing a 5 o'clock workout, she is brain dead. It particularly does not result in good test scores. Fortunately, she chose a D3 school (for this very reason) where she can miss practices without real repercussions. She has found that is critical on test days (which come up more often than you can imagine). She also has found that going to bed early is simply an impossability. Roommates and hall noise just don't allow it. Not to mention there has to be sometime to get homework done. (She has actually moved to a private room in order to be able to have any chance of getting more sleep.) Even at a D3 level, where they expect the students to be students first, managing a science major with athletics is extremely difficult.

[AnniePoo]

I went to UMich and graduated with an engineering degree about 10 years ago.  It was a highly ranked school at the time (might still be).  I was also a highly successful high school rower that opted out of rowing in college.  

 

There were a number of swimmers in my engineering program.  They were not only Div I for swimming, but they also did non-collegiate swimming (World Championships and such) during the school year.  It was a pain if you got in a group project with one of them because they'd be gone so much, but it was permissible.  

 

When I attended, you were accepted into the engineering school and then declared a major in the 2nd year.  I don't recall there being any sort of application process for the specific engineering program.  

 

It's an option.  Certainly she's have no social life other than what she gets with crew, but if that's what she wants, she could go for it.  

[justkeepswimming]

Still reading all of the info here, thank you!! :)

 

[FaithManor]

Michigan Tech is ABET accredited in environmental engineering and has a rowing club. They are Div III for everything except hockey in which they play Div I (which they appear to be very proud of LOL). In the Midwest, their graduates are in demand. US News and World Report only has them ranked at 116, and amongst engineering schools 65. However, there has been some questioning of some of the parameters of the engineering school rankings because in the past few years their teams at national competitions have been consistently beating U of A, U of MI, VTech, and MIT as well. Though they are not an aeronautical engineering school, two years ago they beat the herd for a contract with NASA to build a specific satellite for them which will be controlled after deployment from the campus. They are in the process of building their mini Mission Control.

 

I have no idea what their crew program is like. I have to say though, they must be a hearty lot of athletes because they practice in the Portage River and Lake Superior. I just admire anyone with the gumption to row on a lake that has a range of temps 32 - 55 degrees.