Mommy22alyns Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 If you're using Saxon 8/7 or above, did you buy a scientific calculator? If you waited, when did you buy it? What did you get (something reasonable, hopefully)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinRTX Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I don't give mine calculators until Algebra 2 and then only a inexpensive scientific one from Walmart. I think you can get one for about $10. You really only need the trig and log functions (sin, cos, tan, log, ln). Linda 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 My kids did math without a calculator through calculus, but I do not know whether Saxon is designed to make this possible since we left after 8/7. A well designed math program should not need a calculator, because using a calculator defeats the learning objective in most cases. Mine use a scientific calculator for their high school science courses and on standardized testing. One that costs under $10 is entirely sufficient. We like this one: http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/208723/Casio-fx-260Solar-School-Scientific-Calculator/?cm_mmc=PLA-_-Google-_-Office_Machines-_-208723-VQ6-42102190796-VQ16c-VQ17-pla-VQ18-online-VQ19-208723-VQ20-71902026716-VQ21- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 DS is in Algebra 2 (Saxon). He has not used a calculator. We did a bit of calculator work outside of that with functions. I sometimes allow it for the chemistry stuff because it can be very tedious to do by hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschickie Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 We do have a graphing calculator for dd who is doing Algebra I now. She does not use the calculator except for certain problems (compound interest mainly). The only reason we have the calculator now is that we got it for around$20-25 at a used curriculum sale. A co-op had purchased a set of them for an upper level math class and I guess they were not meeting any more so they were selling them off. If we had not found that one I would have waited until she was doing Advanced or Calculus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 We're on lesson 90 in Saxon 8/7 and no calculator here; we do everything old school. There was one or two exercises that used a calculator, and I let her borrow my ancient TI-30 for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momling Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 For those of you not using calculators until algebra 2, is that including radicals? I remember being taught an algorithm for finding the square roots of numbers in pre-algebra, but I don't remember it any more and haven't come across it in any of the books that my kids have used. Do you use charts for trigonometric ratios? We started using a calculator as needed in pre-algebra, and I can't imagine how long math would take if we didn't. Still, the calculator hold-outs are pretty impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Oldest is in Saxon Alg 2 and rarely uses a calculator. He's had a few problems where one was needed (sine/cosine, maybe?), but he just got an app. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Just a heads up, I am all for kids being able to do their work without a calculator but if you plan on maybe, possibly them going to a school they should get a crash course on how to use a scientific calculator. I grew up on Saxon and finished my high school on it, and then decided I wanted an Alberta diploma so I did my high school over again online in two years. I almost failed my math the first year, not because I didn't know my math, but because I didn't know how to use the calculator and it was expected and often required. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Ds only gets to use a calculator for chemistry due to how tedious and annoying the computations would be without it. He is very honest about it and only uses the calculator about 35% of the time. He is in Geometry now and has yet to come to a point it is necessary. Even with radicals (which are not difficult with a bit of number sense and prime factoring) he has found no issue. As for Trig, you can do these using fractions and decimal conversions without a chart. It just means you have to take the problem down to the conceptual level. At that point the math is not difficult, it just looks impressive. We have done crash courses for standardized testing. In those instances he starts using a calculator about a month before hand for test prep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFossum Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 If your child does state testing, you should check with the monitor as to whether or not he allows calculator usage on the test. If your child is used to using and cannot use a calculator on the test, he may not be able to finish the test in a timely manner. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFossum Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 If your child does state testing, you should check with the monitor as to whether or not he allows calculator usage on the test. If your child is used to using and cannot use a calculator on the test, he may not be able to finish the test in a timely manner. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFossum Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 If your child does state testing, you should check with the monitor as to whether or not he allows calculator usage on the test. If your child is used to using and cannot use a calculator on the test, he may not be able to finish the test in a timely manner. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFossum Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 If your child does state testing, you should check with the monitor as to whether or not he allows calculator usage on the test. If your child is used to using and cannot use a calculator on the test, he may not be able to finish the test in a timely manner. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFossum Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 If your child does state testing, you should check with the monitor as to whether or not he allows calculator usage on the test. If your child is used to using and cannot use a calculator on the test, he may not be able to finish the test in a timely manner. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFossum Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Sorry for the multiple posts. I was using Tapatalk for the first time. I kept getting an error message that my comment wasn't posting. I don't know how to delete them. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 For those of you not using calculators until algebra 2, is that including radicals? I remember being taught an algorithm for finding the square roots of numbers in pre-algebra, but I don't remember it any more and haven't come across it in any of the books that my kids have used. Do you use charts for trigonometric ratios? As far as radicals, if a calculator is not used I would expect radicals to be left in exact but simplified form -- i.e. 4 sqrt 2 instead of sqrt 32. I don't think that learning an algorithm for finding square roots of numbers is very useful now. If someone is asked for, say, the square root of 27.4, they should know that it's "five and a bit", but usually a higher degree of precision is something I'd use a calculator for. I would start using a calculator when not doing so would require use of trigonometric or logarithmic tables. There is, again, no real point to learning these in this day and age with the ubiquity of the scientific calculator. However, I would still prefer to see students move as far as possible before punching buttons on a calculator. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 For those of you not using calculators until algebra 2, is that including radicals? I remember being taught an algorithm for finding the square roots of numbers in pre-algebra, but I don't remember it any more and haven't come across it in any of the books that my kids have used. Do you use charts for trigonometric ratios? We started using a calculator as needed in pre-algebra, and I can't imagine how long math would take if we didn't. Still, the calculator hold-outs are pretty impressive. We just leave it as a radical and that is how most of the problems are shown in the solutions manual (for Algebra 2). We have done some work with approximating radicals (outside of what is in Saxon), but I do think a calculator is ok for those if necessary. We did some brief work with trigonometric ratios with a chem book and did use a calculator. We haven't gotten to that yet with Saxon though. For fun maybe we'll bust out a slide rule. LOL Totally kidding. I've never used a slide rule. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschickie Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 For fun maybe we'll bust out a slide rule. LOL Totally kidding. I've never used a slide rule. I actually think dh has a slide rule. Maybe I should have him break it out and show dd how to use it. Then really scare her and tell her that she needs to use that...LOL As others have said before college kids need to know how to use the calculators. You just need to make sure it is a balance so the kids do not loose the basic arithmetic skills too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 We bought one towards the end of Algebra 1, when there was a specific section that required a calculator for problems that could not be done manually. ETA: Ours was a $10 calculator from Target, and it does all that he needs. At the moment he's in the middle of Algebra 2, and so far it is still adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Oldest is in Saxon Alg 2 and rarely uses a calculator. He's had a few problems where one was needed (sine/cosine, maybe?), but he just got an app. This is mainly what my DS is using the calculator for in Algebra 2. He could not do the sine/cosine problems without the calculator. He also just started on lesson 68 in Algebra 2, and there were very detailed instructions in the lesson for how to use the calculator for scientific notation, powers and roots. The book emphasizes the need to estimate BEFORE using the calculator, so the student has a general idea if the calculator answer is correct and not a punch-in error. I had a minor argument with my DS about this yesterday, because I was requiring him to show the work for his estimates, so he wouldn't be solely dependent on the calculator, which I think is a habit that many students get into. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiMi 4under3 Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 DD13 is doing 8/7 and Algebra 1/2 concurrently ( I know.. I know..) and she does not use a calculator. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 This is mainly what my DS is using the calculator for in Algebra 2. He could not do the sine/cosine problems without the calculator. He also just started on lesson 68 in Algebra 2, and there were very detailed instructions in the lesson for how to use the calculator for scientific notation, powers and roots. The book emphasizes the need to estimate BEFORE using the calculator, so the student has a general idea if the calculator answer is correct and not a punch-in error. I had a minor argument with my DS about this yesterday, because I was requiring him to show the work for his estimates, so he wouldn't be solely dependent on the calculator, which I think is a habit that many students get into. Yes. Seriously. You wouldn't believe the number of people who will be doing something ... like adding 5 2-digit numbers ... and get a 4-digit output, and just write it down because that's what the calculator said, and not REALIZE that that is totally incorrect. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I bought my kids expensive TI calculators in the Advanced Math book. I agree with the person above who said to make sure your kids learn how to effectively use the scientific graphing calculators before you send them off to college. It would be an extreme disadvantage to be thrown into a college calculus course with a professor who expects competency with that instrument if you have never used one much. Our calculus courses at the university do not allow calculators. It would be more important that the student be able to learn to graph functions by hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I actually think dh has a slide rule. Maybe I should have him break it out and show dd how to use it. Then really scare her and tell her that she needs to use that...LOL As others have said before college kids need to know how to use the calculators. You just need to make sure it is a balance so the kids do not loose the basic arithmetic skills too. I wanted to buy one for fun, but I couldn't find a reasonably priced one. They have free aps though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth S Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 We're much freer with calculator usage here. My goal is for them to be comfortable using the graphing calculator for the PSAT and ACT tests, and Saxon's Advanced Math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 We're much freer with calculator usage here. My goal is for them to be comfortable using the graphing calculator for the PSAT and ACT tests, and Saxon's Advanced Math. You don't need a graphing calculator on the PSAT or the ACT. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 As a college instructor, I can only caution people about calculator use. We are dealing with severely calculator dependent students who are incapable of doing basic mental math, believe that what the calculator says is true, and have not managed to develop the number sense and familiarity with math to do well in college math and science - where calculators will not be permitted in math and physics exams. Just saying. You don't do them a favor. ETA: I am talking about things like recognizing a 3-4-5 triangle and immediately knowing sin, cos and tan; recognizing cubes and squares and factorizations; knowing that sin of 30 deg is 1/2,... the calculator addicted students don't have a feeling for such basic relationship, because they always just punched buttons. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinRTX Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I actually think teaching a kid to use a graphing calculator for the PSAT and SAT is a mistake! My 9th grader took the PSAT this past fall. I taught her to use a basic cheap scientific calculator just a few weeks before the actual test. With one of the math practice tests I had her do the problem with the calculator and without. Because she knows her math, it was faster without! She did not have to slow down to make certain she had entered the number into the calculator correctly. Please please teach the kids the math, not the calculator. Oh and my oldest was an engineering major. He taught himself to use a graphing calculator in about a week for his upper level engineering classes. My husband who has just finished his doctorate in software engineering only had to use a graphing calculator in a few classes. Unfortunately my nursing student had to get one for an elementary stats class. I think the kids just knew how to enter the numbers into the calculator at the end, never did really understand what was going on with the numbers. I think this is a poor way to teach a math class. Linda 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 No calculators until algebra 2, and then mostly for fx stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cottonwood Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 DD is in Saxon Alg 1 and she isn't using one..yet. She was in public school in 5th and 6th and when she came home to school in 7th, she was having such a hard time because I didn't allow a calculator. The public school's supply list included a calculator! And they handed out worksheets and never asked the kids to write a problem down, either. About 4 wks into her 7th grade I found a copy of the multiplication facts.... zero through 15.....taped to the back of her SAxon book! She said her teacher handed it out to students in 6th! I couldn't believe it! It took her nearly 6 months to actually work without pausing b/c of these bad habits and become strong her number sense, multiplication facts, etc. I STILL have calculator angst remembering that. I know it's reasonable to give her one coming up but only if the material allows it and I don't think that will be this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 There is no need for a calculator in school-mathematics outside of finding out that it exists and maybe thinking about the program that allows it to function. Also, it is fairly easy to learn to use a calculator--scientific and graphic are fairly simple if you are not technologically inept. Its more important to understand the math than the calculator. You can learn it in the first week of college classes. I disallow the calculator in day-to-day math work around here. I want to keep their calculation abilities strong, so I make them do it with mind and paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 For those of you not using calculators until algebra 2, is that including radicals? I remember being taught an algorithm for finding the square roots of numbers in pre-algebra, but I don't remember it any more and haven't come across it in any of the books that my kids have used. Do you use charts for trigonometric ratios? We started using a calculator as needed in pre-algebra, and I can't imagine how long math would take if we didn't. Still, the calculator hold-outs are pretty impressive. If you have number sense, then radicals aren't that difficult and the higher up you go in math the less often we tend to use decimal approximations. So far, it has been perfectly appropriate for the boys write sqrt(5) if the answer is the square root of 5. They are learning/memorizing the squares and roots of numbers up to 20 as part of their math goals this year. The unit circle is one of the things we learn/memorize and when we go through a full on course for Trig, we'll use the exact form or use the approx sig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Thank you for the feedback! I definitely want to wait as long as possible to introduce the calculator, so if it's not necessary, that's good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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