S/O Gender Identity Thread: Suicide. Why do some choose it but not others?

[TranquilMind]

Seven kids in the family I grew up in. Personalities differ despite growing up in the same home and having the same parents. Because of different personalities, our interpretations and memories are different. Different interpretations of events and different experiences outside the home have led to different problems as teens and adults. One is a smoker, one has struggled with drug addiction, two have never had any problems with addiction of any sort and have led healthy adult lives with healthy families of their own, a couple of us have depression struggles, two of us have had suicide attempts. Really, there is a variety of reactions to the upbringing we had, because each individual responds to life in their own unique way, regardless of whether they have the same parents or not.

Why, why, why?

 

Inquiring minds need to know.

 

;) 

[Caroline]

And tonight I am wondering, why today? She didn't succeed, yet, but she isn't out of the woods. She was loved. She is loved. She was getting counseling. It seemed to be working, or maybe she was just putting up a good front, biding her time. It isn't because she is weak or has some moral failings. Life just got too hard and too out of control.

 

Please, keep her family and her in your prayers. No names, as I am sure she Isn't the only young lady who needs these prayers tonight.

[Dory]

Why, why, why?

 

Inquiring minds need to know.

 

;)

 

My theory.....there is always some variation with genetics within a family so that comes into play (really there is even variation with hair colour so why not something like this?), with the genetic differences come slight differences in hormone levels, vitamin and mineral absorbtion (pernicious anemia is a problem with some in my family), and weakness to addictions. Birth order seems to affect perceptions on family happenings as well. Birth assigned sex (trying to figure out how to word that) plays a large  role in some families and areas. Girls and boys are often treated vastly different.

Then the outside world does the rest. Each child is going to have slightly different experiences outside the home. If there was something that left a weak spot in the home, outside experiences could just further injure that.

 

In our home the two that are the healthiest are the two that spent the least amount of time at home as teenagers.

[Meadowlark]

Seven kids in the family I grew up in. Personalities differ despite growing up in the same home and having the same parents. Because of different personalities, our interpretations and memories are different. Different interpretations of events and different experiences outside the home have led to different problems as teens and adults. One is a smoker, one has struggled with drug addiction, two have never had any problems with addiction of any sort and have led healthy adult lives with healthy families of their own, a couple of us have depression struggles, two of us have had suicide attempts. Really, there is a variety of reactions to the upbringing we had, because each individual responds to life in their own unique way, regardless of whether they have the same parents or not.

This is so true. I grew up constantly amazed about how different myself and two brothers are, for all of the reasons you just mentioned. Same parents, same home, but even within those parameters, VERY different upbringings. I have always wondered how three such different people ever ended up in the same family. Not surprising, I am estranged from one of them (self- proclaimed sociopath) and the other took his life as I mentioned up thread. So sadly, that's how that played out. It really has made me stop and think about my responsibility as a parent in nurturing each of my children for who they are and not comparing or pitting them against each other. Not saying my parents or anyone else's did those things, but that's how I'm trying to make my kids' future a bit different.

 

Now, as for explaining HOW my kids' uncle died, that's tough. So far, I've told them that his heart stopped. I'm not sure how much longer that will work suffice though.

[Abeille]

What if they are from the same environment? What if two kids both become alcoholics or (fill in the blank with major problem) but one commits suicide and the other does not?  Same parents, same upbringing. 

 

Why?  That sort of removes genetic factors. 

 

No, it doesn't. Not unless they're identical twins, and my understanding is that even though id twins share the same DNA code environmental conditions can cause changes between the two.

[Frances]

Not identical, but very close. I suppose there could be differences that really matter. The home life is the same though.

No, the home life is not the same. Probably similar, but not the same. And in some cases it could even be radically different.

[Frances]

Why, why, why?

 

Inquiring minds need to know.

 

;)

It seems so basic to me that I can't really understand what you are questioning. Individuals differ at birth and environmental factors continue to shape them in different ways as they go through life. Therefore, we will not all respond in the same way to similar circumstances.

[Joanne]

I asked a question in the enormous thread about Shiloh Pitt, and I'd like to tease that out now, if anyone is game:

 

The really interesting question to me here is why some will persevere despite what they perceive as (or what are objectively...i.e. concentration camp or prison) horrible surroundings, and others fold? This isn't theoretical to me, as I have lost people close to me, and I still wonder why. Same family. One perseveres, one folds, sometimes even under the same contraints or circumstances. Why?

 

Care to discuss?

 

Figured it out. The problem with the query.

 

1. It assumes that depression related suicide is affiliated with hard times or horrible surroundings. This leads naturally to an evaluation of quantifying "hard". This is dangerous territory. There is always a "harder" situation. When I contemplated suicide, reminders of how hard others have it, or have had it, were discounting and infuriating.
2. The OP assumes that suicide is a strength issue. In that paradigm, stronger people don't do it.
3.  I believe that pain is the determining factor not strength.

[Melissa in Australia]

I very strongly believe that suicide should be decriminalized completely.. that people who do commit suicide should not be revived and allowed to chose to not live.

 

YES I have had quite a few relatives successfully chose to take their own life. I see no sin in that action, nor do I see it a selfish act.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dory]

I very strongly believe that suicide should be decriminalized completely.. that people who do commit suicide should not be revived and allowed to chose to not live.

 

YES I have had quite a few relatives successfully chose to take their own life. I see no sin in that action, nor do I see it a selfish act.

 

Yes, but there are some people who really could be helped that attempt (or succeed) suicide simply because they haven't seen their way out of it all. Maybe the suicide and reviving/saving actually would be a turning point because it would put them in a place where they would get the help they need. Sometimes people around here never find help until they land in the hospital.

[maize]

Yes, but there are some people who really could be helped that attempt (or succeed) suicide simply because they haven't seen their way out of it all. Maybe the suicide and reviving/saving actually would be a turning point because it would put them in a place where they would get the help they need. Sometimes people around here never find help until they land in the hospital.

Goodness yes! Many, many people have attempted suicide, survived, and have gone on to live meaningful, fulfilled lives. A moment of hopelessness, even a long period of hopelessness and struggle, does not define a life.

 

I'm very grateful for a survivor in my own family who is in a much, much better life place now than when the attempts took place.

[TranquilMind]

No, it doesn't. Not unless they're identical twins, and my understanding is that even though id twins share the same DNA code environmental conditions can cause changes between the two.

Ok, but we don't know what, if any, changes.  I'm more interested in the thought process.  Why does one persevere, and why does another, who may even have objectively better surroundings, not stick it out? 

[SeaConquest]

For the love of G-d, suicide is not a failure to persevere. If you're going to repeat these types of comments in a thread with suicide survivors, at least put a trigger warning. Several of us have already explained our thought processes, which, for me, have been nothing like the conscious, rational, binary (fail to persevere or stick it out) choice you're making suicide out to be.

[Dory]

Ok, but we don't know what, if any, changes.  I'm more interested in the thought process.  Why does one persevere, and why does another, who may even have objectively better surroundings, not stick it out? 

 

It's not always a thought process per say. Sometimes it's just the hormones pulling a person down to a point where they can't think straight anymore. Sometimes it's an injury either emotionally, mentally, or physically that just takes too much out of a person and they don't have the ability/resources/reserves to be able to handle it.

 

If I have had a month where I'm averaging 2 hours of sleep a night, I'm having nightmares on a nightly basis and flashbacks regularly, are we really going to say there's a thought process to me feeling a little suicidal? Or is it just that I lack the resources and strength to think through things really well at that time?

[maize]

Talk of persevering seems to assume rational thought--the ability to think along the lines of "I can get through this and things will get better". The suicidal people I have personally known were not at that time capable of truly rational thought, all that was real to them was the pain they were currently experiencing. Pain that felt like it had gone on forever and would go on forever.

[LucyStoner]

Maybe it's time to call Guy Noir.

 

TM, there's no answer to your persistent life question because you aren't seeing that suicidal depression is an illness, not something you persevere though only if you are strong enough or have some magic key mix of gosh knows what.

 

Sometimes cancer kills you. Other times it doesn't. This is pretty much the same.

[Amy in NH]

I think that sometimes it is a rational choice.  Once again, you don't need to persevere through a problem to do it when it is a rational solution for a problem.

[Dory]

I think that sometimes it is a rational choice.  Once again, you don't need to persevere through a problem to do it when it is a rational solution for a problem.

 

I would agree that that is the case sometimes, although I don't think it's the majority of times. I think the majority of times the struggle and pain don't really allow for terribly clear thinking.

[Laurie4b]

Ok, but we don't know what, if any, changes.  I'm more interested in the thought process.  Why does one persevere, and why does another, who may even have objectively better surroundings, not stick it out? 

 

There is no specific answer to your question in the way that you seem to be wanting there to be an answer. You are getting general answers, but even those don't seem to be having an impact.

 

It appears that you are asking to satisfy some intellectual curiosity, but in that case, one would expect the answers to not "bounce off" quite to the extent that they seem to, so I'm wondering if there is more behind your question and the way you phrase your question. Given your family history, are you trying to deal with hurt because of the relatives who committed suicide? Or are you concerned about how to try to prevent suicide in your children or yourself?  Perhaps if we understood more of your thinking we could perhaps better answer what you are actually asking.

 

So for the way you've re-worded your question, you've already had many people answer that there is no one answer. Posters have said in many different ways that people are different. Unless you're talking about identical twins, no one has the same genetics. And even when you're considering identical twins, they do not have the same environment. If one is talking about sibings in a family, then birth order and changes in time of parenting practices guarantee that the upbringing was not the same even if it was simliar. People are different in the way their brains are wired, which is both genetic and environmental, etc.

 

People have already answered that external circumstances are not always the reason for the pain , that the pain can be internal from mental illness. (Someone shared about a relative who, when he was not stabilized on medication thought constantly of suicide and didn't think about it once stablized. Circumstances didn't change.)  But you're asking the question again.

 

So perhaps the new part in your question is about thought processes. (The answers that everyone is diffferent apply to thought processes as well, of course.)  Thought processes are important, but they are not the only  factor in whether or not someone commits suicide.(Again, people have mentioned things such as strength of the support system, access to lethal means, etc.)  So thought processes  may not be determinative in a given situation. Again, people on this thread have also directly addressed thought processes. The common thread of people who have been suicidal but not done it is thinking about the impact on others .( However, sometimes people commit suicide for the very same reason: "I am or will be too much of a burden to those I love so for their sake, I will kill myself.")  We don't know what the thought processes were of those who actually died in an act of suicide as they could have changed from even their own previous thought processes a few days before. We can glean from those who have tried but were rescued and have some notion. Again, the question has been answered.

 

You keep choosing to phrase your question in words that imply a moral judgment such as  "persevere" vs. "not stick it out" even after people have pointed out that it may not be a question of choice or of strength or weakness but rather of the strength of the pain or the mental illness. People have used cancer as an analogy. What is the reason that it's important to you to phrase it as a moral choice? Are you wanting to discuss what can be done to help someone who is overwhelmed with pain and suicidal thoughts but doesn't want to actually do it? (Ambivalence--both wanting to and not wanting to is part of most people's thinking/feeling during a large portion of the time that they are suicidal. And certainly counselors work with the thought processes, but they also work with the support system, access to lethal means, etc.) Are you thinking of this aspect and want to know how to help? Again, knowing what is behind your question would possibly help us answer it.

[Caroline]

Stuart Scott, an ESPN reporter, died of cancer this morning. When he accepted the Jimmy V award for perseverance, he said these words, "When you die, it does not mean that you lose to cancer. You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, and in the manner in which you live." I wonder if we can apply some of that here. When you commit suicide, it doesn't mean that you lost.

[TranquilMind]

It's not always a thought process per say. Sometimes it's just the hormones pulling a person down to a point where they can't think straight anymore. Sometimes it's an injury either emotionally, mentally, or physically that just takes too much out of a person and they don't have the ability/resources/reserves to be able to handle it.

 

If I have had a month where I'm averaging 2 hours of sleep a night, I'm having nightmares on a nightly basis and flashbacks regularly, are we really going to say there's a thought process to me feeling a little suicidal? Or is it just that I lack the resources and strength to think through things really well at that time?

I think anyone averaging two hours of sleep a night would be in serious trouble!  That is something to address. 

[TranquilMind]

Stuart Scott, an ESPN reporter, died of cancer this morning. When he accepted the Jimmy V award for perseverance, he said these words, "When you die, it does not mean that you lose to cancer. You beat cancer by how you live, why you live, and in the manner in which you live." I wonder if we can apply some of that here. When you commit suicide, it doesn't mean that you lost.

Everyone who loves you lost. 

[TranquilMind]

There is no specific answer to your question in the way that you seem to be wanting there to be an answer. You are getting general answers, but even those don't seem to be having an impact.

 

It appears that you are asking to satisfy some intellectual curiosity, but in that case, one would expect the answers to not "bounce off" quite to the extent that they seem to, so I'm wondering if there is more behind your question and the way you phrase your question. Given your family history, are you trying to deal with hurt because of the relatives who committed suicide? Or are you concerned about how to try to prevent suicide in your children or yourself?  Perhaps if we understood more of your thinking we could perhaps better answer what you are actually asking.

 

So for the way you've re-worded your question, you've already had many people answer that there is no one answer. Posters have said in many different ways that people are different. Unless you're talking about identical twins, no one has the same genetics. And even when you're considering identical twins, they do not have the same environment. If one is talking about sibings in a family, then birth order and changes in time of parenting practices guarantee that the upbringing was not the same even if it was simliar. People are different in the way their brains are wired, which is both genetic and environmental, etc.

 

People have already answered that external circumstances are not always the reason for the pain , that the pain can be internal from mental illness. (Someone shared about a relative who, when he was not stabilized on medication thought constantly of suicide and didn't think about it once stablized. Circumstances didn't change.)  But you're asking the question again.

 

So perhaps the new part in your question is about thought processes. (The answers that everyone is diffferent apply to thought processes as well, of course.)  Thought processes are important, but they are not the only  factor in whether or not someone commits suicide.(Again, people have mentioned things such as strength of the support system, access to lethal means, etc.)  So thought processes  may not be determinative in a given situation. Again, people on this thread have also directly addressed thought processes. The common thread of people who have been suicidal but not done it is thinking about the impact on others .( However, sometimes people commit suicide for the very same reason: "I am or will be too much of a burden to those I love so for their sake, I will kill myself.")  We don't know what the thought processes were of those who actually died in an act of suicide as they could have changed from even their own previous thought processes a few days before. We can glean from those who have tried but were rescued and have some notion. Again, the question has been answered.

 

You keep choosing to phrase your question in words that imply a moral judgment such as  "persevere" vs. "not stick it out" even after people have pointed out that it may not be a question of choice or of strength or weakness but rather of the strength of the pain or the mental illness. People have used cancer as an analogy. What is the reason that it's important to you to phrase it as a moral choice? Are you wanting to discuss what can be done to help someone who is overwhelmed with pain and suicidal thoughts but doesn't want to actually do it? (Ambivalence--both wanting to and not wanting to is part of most people's thinking/feeling during a large portion of the time that they are suicidal. And certainly counselors work with the thought processes, but they also work with the support system, access to lethal means, etc.) Are you thinking of this aspect and want to know how to help? Again, knowing what is behind your question would possibly help us answer it.

I know there is no one, real, definitive answer that covers all situations.  I'm just curious though. having lost family members.  I hope I'm allowed to be curious and to ask the unanswerable.   I find the forgiving survivors, like Eva Kor, fascinating. 

 

I do disagree with you that thought processes are "only a factor".  Every single thing you do started with a thought process, in which you did anything from a lightening rapid to exceedingly slow costs/benefits analysis and then decided to act.  That's just human nature.    Your brain/thought process directs your body. 

[TranquilMind]

 

Figured it out. The problem with the query.

 

1. It assumes that depression related suicide is affiliated with hard times or horrible surroundings. This leads naturally to an evaluation of quantifying "hard". This is dangerous territory. There is always a "harder" situation. When I contemplated suicide, reminders of how hard others have it, or have had it, were discounting and infuriating.
2. The OP assumes that suicide is a strength issue. In that paradigm, stronger people don't do it.
3.  I believe that pain is the determining factor not strength.

 

I'm actually not assuming hard times or horrible surroundings, but I used that example of the concentration camp as a far extreme of a situation in which everyone would be traumatized, but only some would commit or try to commit suicide.  Why? 

 

Some have identical lives to mine, for example, in that they are married several decades, have nearly grown kids, a happy marriage...whatever other facts you want to throw in, and they still kill themselves.  Why? 

 

I do believe that it takes fortitude to live, because life is hard for everyone, at times, some more than others.  But everyone is not committing suicide, despite the pain level at various times.  What is the difference?

[TranquilMind]

It seems so basic to me that I can't really understand what you are questioning. Individuals differ at birth and environmental factors continue to shape them in different ways as they go through life. Therefore, we will not all respond in the same way to similar circumstances.

Yeah...so.

 

Humans are hard-wired for survival.  Everything about how the body works does so in an attempt to preserve life, such as when you are freezing, your body still protects your core as long as possible.  Humans have endured amazing things in order to survive, like Louis Zamperini.  Why? 

[Dory]

I think anyone averaging two hours of sleep a night would be in serious trouble!  That is something to address. 

 

As I've mentioned, the holidays take a lot out of me. I start falling asleep in odd places after a couple weeks. And when I say averaging, it's more like some nights I get 5ish and some nights I get about 1. The odd night I'll get none. By the end of the month my body starts having a hard time regulating it's temperature and I drop weight. I don't plan on much schooling getting done in December. I've learned that catnaps, tylonol, and caffeine are my friends. You asked why some give in to suicide though, and that is one of the reasons. Sometimes, what they are battling through is just really, really hard. Even if the outside circumstances are ok, when what is going on in your head is this overwhelming, it's just hard to keep moving forward sometimes, and when you are so tired you can't think straight, logically weighing the pros and cons of suicide isn't going to happen.

 

[Dory]

I'm actually not assuming hard times or horrible surroundings, but I used that example of the concentration camp as a far extreme of a situation in which everyone would be traumatized, but only some would commit or try to commit suicide.  Why? 

 

Some have identical lives to mine, for example, in that they are married several decades, have nearly grown kids, a happy marriage...whatever other facts you want to throw in, and they still kill themselves.  Why? 

 

I do believe that it takes fortitude to live, because life is hard for everyone, at times, some more than others.  But everyone is not committing suicide, despite the pain level at various times.  What is the difference?

 

how about putting it like this. My kids are all getting similar educations and yet they won't all choose the same career path. Why?

 

They are all taking piano lessons and yet not all of them have the same ability. Why?

 

 

Each brain is slightly different with slightly different wiring. Each person is able to process and handle different situations on a different level. Some people seem to be simply more sensitive to trauma. Some people it's not that they aren't affected it's just that their mind is better able to box it in and control the damage. Each mind is a little unique.

[Lawana]

Yeah...so.

 

Humans are hard-wired for survival. Everything about how the body works does so in an attempt to preserve life, such as when you are freezing, your body still protects your core as long as possible. Humans have endured amazing things in order to survive, like Louis Zamperini. Why?

Perhaps, because as in virtually everything else, we differ among ourselves in the strength of the survival instinct. I would say it thus: humans are hard-wired to avoid pain. Everything about how the body works does so in an attempt to mitigate pain. Why doesn't everyone act to stop pain?

 

You might ask any question in the world about why an individual chooses to do something differently than another. It is always going to come back to individuals being different. We are all not the same. We all do not think and feel the same way as you. Until and unless you can fully accept that, there will be no satisfactory answer.

[Dory]

I know there is no one, real, definitive answer that covers all situations.  I'm just curious though. having lost family members.  I hope I'm allowed to be curious and to ask the unanswerable.   I find the forgiving survivors, like Eva Kor, fascinating. 

 

I do disagree with you that thought processes are "only a factor".  Every single thing you do started with a thought process, in which you did anything from a lightening rapid to exceedingly slow costs/benefits analysis and then decided to act.  That's just human nature.    Your brain/thought process directs your body. 

 

There are thought processes that we have though, that we are often not consciously thinking through. Our brain makes our heart beat, and yet if a heart stops we don't blame the person for the thought processes being faulty. For someone with OCD, we don't chew them out for thinking through their compulsions, they can't help it. There are many things that we do out of knee jerk reactions, that are not thought out carefully, we just do them. For many people with depression, suicide is that same reaction. There are those few who have thought it out and do see it as the best thing to do, but many times, it's just an act of desperation because the individuals mind can't handle the pain. Our brain directs our body, but we are not in complete control of our brain.

 

Most cognitive thought is happening in in the frontal cortex. In some situations, where fight or flight takes over, or (for PTSD folks) dissociation happens, the frontal cortex tends to shut down rather badly.

[J-rap]

To me, this question is way too simple and way too complex to even answer.  That is, the simple answer is that everyone is so different, everyone, even identical twins born and raised in the same family.  The complex answer is that brains and how they develop are so complex and multifaceted, then throw in hormones and experiences and so many other things, that the number of possible outcomes is infinite.  I don't think suicide is the sign of a weaker person.  I don't even think of it as a sin.  It should be pitied, not shamed, that someone was so despairing in life that they felt this was their only option.  But honestly, I would not blame anyone.  How could I, if I never walked in their shoes.  I am a strong, positive person with a strong Christian faith and strong support system, but I once went through something myself that caused me to consider suicide, even if just momentarily.  It is not a simple formula though that can be anticipated.

[Sdel]

I do disagree with you that thought processes are "only a factor".  Every single thing you do started with a thought process, in which you did anything from a lightening rapid to exceedingly slow costs/benefits analysis and then decided to act.  That's just human nature.    Your brain/thought process directs your body. 

 

Yes, everything is a thought process.  But the pain/illness distorts the thoughts and the cost/benefit analysis you generate.  People going through excruciating pain, emotional or physical, are not capable of rational thought processes, the need to end the pain overrides everything.  No one controls all of their thoughts 100% of the time.  People suffering from depression don't control their negative thoughts.  At the heights of my depression my thought cycle could be something like this:  "You don't have any friends, just do everyone a favor and go away.  No, that isn't rational, you know better than that. Everyone is going to leave you, might as well get it over with before you can get hurt.  Stop, you aren't thinking right, lots of people would miss you. You are a valuable person.  No, you aren't, you are a pathetic person."  And on and on and on until something breaks the cycle (like having to go to work/school/recovery or your rational come back either doesn't come or comes to slowly.   

 

Because TM, no one WANTS to think the things that lead to suicide.

 

Stefanie

[merry gardens]

I very strongly believe that suicide should be decriminalized completely.. that people who do commit suicide should not be revived and allowed to chose to not live....

I very strongly believe differently.  When something is made legal, many people conclude it is therefore okay.  Sometimes, the only thing that prevents a person from committing suicide is that they were taught it is not an acceptable choice. Some of us may get through difficult situations and go on to enjoy life again because we were taught that suicide is not okay. If suicide is legalized, there will be more suicides. Some people undergoing difficult times may even experience pressure to end their suffering through suicide from loved ones who don't want to watch them suffer. 

 

I'm sorry that you have lost family members to suicide. 

[maize]

Your brain/thought process directs your body.

Yes, but the body can also direct the thought process, because the brain is part of the body. A brain that is traumatized or ill won't have the same thought processes as a brain that is healthy.

 

I don't think that all suicides are the result of clinical depression, but for those that are the underlying organic illness cannot be separated out from the thought process that leads to suicide.

[Caroline]

Nm

[Mrs Mungo]

My 3 younger sisters and I all had similar genetic makeup and upbringing. One of us is dead from cancer. Why is that? If you can't tell me, then people cannot answer your question.

[Frances]

Some have identical lives to mine, for example, in that they are married several decades, have nearly grown kids, a happy marriage...whatever other facts you want to throw in, and they still kill themselves?

No, they DO NOT have identical lives to you. Please, try to understand this basic fact. And even if they appear similar to you, you never really know what is going on in their lives.

[Laurie4b]

I know there is no one, real, definitive answer that covers all situations.  I'm just curious though. having lost family members.  I hope I'm allowed to be curious and to ask the unanswerable.   I find the forgiving survivors, like Eva Kor, fascinating. 

 

I do disagree with you that thought processes are "only a factor".  Every single thing you do started with a thought process, in which you did anything from a lightening rapid to exceedingly slow costs/benefits analysis and then decided to act.  That's just human nature.    Your brain/thought process directs your body. 

 

Yes, but we are not islands. Other things that are absolutely  factors in suicide are external to the person. I've already mentioned  support systems and availability of lethal means. If a person is having suicidal thoughts that would lead inevitably to suicide if she was alone , but instead she is in a hospital, being watched by family members, etc. then suicide is much less likely to occur. (Still possible, though.) She may get through that period and survive. So whether or not one has the support system is a major factor. Same thing with lethal means. If a person does not have access to lethal means at the time of the thoughts, then suicide cannot occur. That's why some families with suicidal teens, for instance, keep all the kitchen knives and drugs of any kind under lock and key.  If person A and B had exactly the same thought processes that would have led to a suicide, but person A was in a supportive environment, and person B was alone, person B can be assumed to be a suicide and person A likely not. Additionally, there is typically a period in which the person contemplating suicide is ambivalent. Part of her thoughts support it; part prevent it. If there is intervention from caring friends, family, and professionals at that point, she may never get to the moment where only external intervention can prevent a suicide. She was still suicidal, however.

 

Additionally, our thought processes and level of control in turn are influenced by medications, physical abnormalities in the brain (tumors for instance), etc.

 

Since  your purpose in this thread is to simply satisfy your intellectual curiosity , I hope that you will consider changing your language when describing suicides to language that does not imply moral judgment.  It's insensitive, especially given the level of pain that has been expressed by people in this thread.

[TranquilMind]

To me, this question is way too simple and way too complex to even answer.  That is, the simple answer is that everyone is so different, everyone, even identical twins born and raised in the same family.  The complex answer is that brains and how they develop are so complex and multifaceted, then throw in hormones and experiences and so many other things, that the number of possible outcomes is infinite.  I don't think suicide is the sign of a weaker person.  I don't even think of it as a sin.  It should be pitied, not shamed, that someone was so despairing in life that they felt this was their only option.  But honestly, I would not blame anyone.  How could I, if I never walked in their shoes.  I am a strong, positive person with a strong Christian faith and strong support system, but I once went through something myself that caused me to consider suicide, even if just momentarily.  It is not a simple formula though that can be anticipated.

I'd go so far as to say that almost everyone has had these moments.  And trauma, and pain. 

 

Some survive and conquer, like Eva Kor.  Some only survive.  Some don't survive. 

 

 

And I will continue to wonder why, I guess. 

[TranquilMind]

My 3 younger sisters and I all had similar genetic makeup and upbringing. One of us is dead from cancer. Why is that? If you can't tell me, then people cannot answer your question.

 

That's different in that she had no control over the cause of her death.  Your sister didn't make it happen.

 

And I'm sorry.  I know whereof you speak.  Two of my siblings are no longer here. 

[TranquilMind]

No, they DO NOT have identical lives to you. Please, try to understand this basic fact. And even if they appear similar to you, you never really know what is going on in their lives.

I should have added that their lives appear objectively to be like mine. 

[TranquilMind]

Yes, but we are not islands. Other things that are absolutely  factors in suicide are external to the person. I've already mentioned  support systems and availability of lethal means. If a person is having suicidal thoughts that would lead inevitably to suicide if she was alone , but instead she is in a hospital, being watched by family members, etc. then suicide is much less likely to occur. (Still possible, though.) She may get through that period and survive. So whether or not one has the support system is a major factor. Same thing with lethal means. If a person does not have access to lethal means at the time of the thoughts, then suicide cannot occur. That's why some families with suicidal teens, for instance, keep all the kitchen knives and drugs of any kind under lock and key.  If person A and B had exactly the same thought processes that would have led to a suicide, but person A was in a supportive environment, and person B was alone, person B can be assumed to be a suicide and person A likely not. Additionally, there is typically a period in which the person contemplating suicide is ambivalent. Part of her thoughts support it; part prevent it. If there is intervention from caring friends, family, and professionals at that point, she may never get to the moment where only external intervention can prevent a suicide. She was still suicidal, however.

 

Additionally, our thought processes and level of control in turn are influenced by medications, physical abnormalities in the brain (tumors for instance), etc.

 

Since  your purpose in this thread is to simply satisfy your intellectual curiosity , I hope that you will consider changing your language when describing suicides to language that does not imply moral judgment.  It's insensitive, especially given the level of pain that has been expressed by people in this thread.

What is wrong with the way I worded my question now?  I read the response to which you replied, and I do not see a problem in asking the question I have asked, nor do I consider it a moral judgment to observe that (a general one) one chose to live and one did not. 

[Dory]

I'd go so far as to say that almost everyone has had these moments.  And trauma, and pain. 

 

Some survive and conquer, like Eva Kor.  Some only survive.  Some don't survive. 

 

 

And I will continue to wonder why, I guess. 

 

Studies of the brain would say that no, almost everyone does not have moments that low, and no, trauma and pain are not the same level same amount for everyone. Even if the trauma looks externally the same. It's not conquering, it's simply having the mental ability to process it. I have a kid with a processing problem that affects his writing, that doesn't mean he isn't trying hard enough, it means his brain just simply can't process things at the same speed as some other kids.

 

Think of it as a processing disorder. It actually is fairly similar.

[TranquilMind]

how about putting it like this. My kids are all getting similar educations and yet they won't all choose the same career path. Why?

 

They are all taking piano lessons and yet not all of them have the same ability. Why?

 

 

Each brain is slightly different with slightly different wiring. Each person is able to process and handle different situations on a different level. Some people seem to be simply more sensitive to trauma. Some people it's not that they aren't affected it's just that their mind is better able to box it in and control the damage. Each mind is a little unique.

That's entirely different.  All will do something.  It is only equivalent if say, three of your children work regular jobs, get married and raise kids,  but one decides to live homeless in the woods, and then starves to death when you would have fed him.   I'm sure you would wonder what that one child was experiencing that caused this major choice that was so vastly different from all the other kids you raised.

 

 

I actually just read about a book on that sort of scenario (in a small way) this morning in the paper.  

 

  http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/media/books/Chris-McCandless-The-Wild-Truth-Book.html

 

(But that lowlife, violent father was apparently physically abusive and mom -with whom this married dad had an ongoing affair and two children-- did not protect them.  So not really comparable at all to most situations, but I remembered it because of the kid who disappeared into the woods.)

 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

That's different in that she had no control over the cause of her death. Your sister didn't make it happen.

You really don't know if that is true at all. You don't know anything about her.

 

Do people participate in activities that increase their chances of cancer? They absolutely do. Do people make difficult choices which impact the survivability of cancer? Absolutely.

 

My uncle who had bipolar and likely committed suicide via car accident didn't have a choice in his illness any more than my sister did.

 

The soldier whose funeral I attended didn't have a choice about the pain or depression he had been living with before committing suicide.

 

My son has a genetic disease. Many young people make choices that affect their life span. Does that mean their early deaths are their fault? No. Because people can't predict the future or measure one person's sickness against another's. Every person and illness is a little bit different.

 

These are all *the same*.

[regentrude]

That's different in that she had no control over the cause of her death.  Your sister didn't make it happen.

 

A person who suffers from depression does not "make it happen" either.

She does not have the choice not to be depressed. And in the throes of mental illness, she may not have the choice to remain living - because the way her brain functions does not allow her to see that suicide is not the only logical solution.

[SeaConquest]

I very strongly believe differently.  When something is made legal, many people conclude it is therefore okay.  Sometimes, the only thing that prevents a person from committing suicide is that they were taught it is not an acceptable choice. Some of us may get through difficult situations and go on to enjoy life again because we were taught that suicide is not okay. If suicide is legalized, there will be more suicides. Some people undergoing difficult times may even experience pressure to end their suffering through suicide from loved ones who don't want to watch them suffer. 

 

I'm sorry that you have lost family members to suicide. 

 

The legality/morality of suicide was *never* a factor for me. I liken my experiences (yes, plural) attempting suicide to temporary insanity. Meaning, I was mentally incapable of recognizing the nature of the act. I understand that not everyone has this experience, but I really disassociate from the entire experience and have little memory of it.

 

To help put things into perspective, I have a wonderful husband, two beautiful children, a supportive family, a law degree from a prestigious school and was making in excess of 300k per year at a top law firm, and have never been the victim of abuse. Why would I do such a thing? I have an illness. And, despite wonderful doctors, and years of therapy and medication, sometimes the illness simply overpowers my mind to tragic effect. And, at the end of the day, the illness might ultimately win no matter how fiercely I might struggle against it. If that day comes, I will not have failed to persevere. 

[Mrs Mungo]

A friend of mine who is a cancer survivor posted this today:

"It is upsetting when people say that so-and-so lost their fight against cancer, as though the person did something wrong or insufficient and just couldn't get the job done."

 

I agree with that completely. It also applies to depression and suicide.

[Dory]

That's entirely different.  All will do something.  It is only equivalent if say, three of your children work regular jobs, get married and raise kids,  but one decides to live homeless in the woods, and then starves to death when you would have fed him.

 

I'm sure you would wonder what that one was experiencing that caused this major choice that was so vastly different from all the other kids you raised.

 

How is it different? They are all being raised the same and yet one wants to be a farmer and another a structural engineer. That's pretty vastly different choices for having come from the same household. Why are different decisions ok for those decisions and you don't question them or wonder, but as soon as the decision is one you don't like, you question it? What about other major choices? Marriage at a super young age? Lots of kids versus no kids?

 

Life ends for everyone, some people might just feel that their life would be better ended a little earlier. No one questions the guy who had a heart attack at 40. It's ok if the heart can't handle it, but if the brain starts shutting down that's bad?

 

It's hard to lose loved ones. It's hard whether they are 80 or 30. But sometimes a person just can't handle it. Whether it's their mind that can't handle it, or their heart, or their liver, or any other body part.

 

Really the brain is the most complex part and the most likely to malfunction.

[regentrude]

I should have added that their lives appear objectively to be like mine. 

 

What does "objectively" mean in this context?

You can evaluate based on a superficial glance from the outside.

 

Things you can not see, but that are objective just as well are: genetic disposition for mental illness, childhood trauma, troubling situations in extended family, an unhealthy environment at work, prior exposure to harmful chemical.... there is an endless list of factors that can affect a person's well being beyond the easily observable "married, in a job, two adult kids". In fact, as an outsider, you are not even in a position to judge whether they are really in a happy marriage. For all you know they may have troubles they choose not to share with you.

[TranquilMind]

Studies of the brain would say that no, almost everyone does not have moments that low, and no, trauma and pain are not the same level same amount for everyone. Even if the trauma looks externally the same. It's not conquering, it's simply having the mental ability to process it. I have a kid with a processing problem that affects his writing, that doesn't mean he isn't trying hard enough, it means his brain just simply can't process things at the same speed as some other kids.

 

Think of it as a processing disorder. It actually is fairly similar.

Well, ok.  I guess I can only speak for all of the adult women that I know, both in my family and as friends - all of whom have had tremendous lows at various times, often with good reasons (death of children, of marriage, major illness, etc).   

 

I think it is rather dismissive to suggest that all don't experience the highs and the lows.  I think we do, and I think that is the common denominator to humankind. 

But no way to quantify, so it is what it is.