Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[Haiku]

For me, this is what the whole debate comes down to. Can we accept it when our children choose differently than we do? Don't we have to? Isn't it inherently *irrational* to deny who they say they are? It isn't *impossoble* (as has been claimed) for Christian parents to accept that their child is atheist, gay or gender non-conforming, even if it is hard.

 

My child does not share some of my most significant values. I have my own private religious and moral thoughts on this. I do believe that some of the values she holds are wrong and damaging and will cause negative outcomes for her both in this life and beyond. It does upset me, sometimes a great deal and other times to a lesser degree.

 

My child is her own person. It is not my right as a parent, a follower of my religious beliefs, or a human to define for her who she is. I cannot dictate my child's core sense of self. Period. I can live with that or refuse to accept it, and I live with the consequences of either of those decisions.

[Rosie_0801]

Nothing in particular, as any of us could be highly educated on some issues.  But when you are erroneously suggesting someone is "uneducated" simply because they don't agree with your conclusion from a set of facts, then it is acceptable for the person to correct the misimpression. 

 

Just be honest state the truth as you(general you) see it:  "You disagree with ME, so you must be stupid and have not been properly educated as I have." 

 

I can respect directness and honesty.  At least own what you (general you) are saying.

 

You hold on to out dated information, such as the risks of hormone blockers, which have been proven untrue. I can respect your *right* to believe stuff that isn't true, but I don't respect the opinion you have based on incorrect information and I don't respect that I have never seen you amend your opinion based on updated information.

[elegantlion]

Well that's not the question though - it is, what do you do if it's your child.

 

If it's my child. I love you, I will support you in your exploration of who you are, or are becoming. I cannot imagine it being different if he was have gender issues. He has a beard that I wish he would trim or shave, but that is his choice. I can imagine if it was something that required counseling or years of watching and supporting I would be a bit more protective. When he was 3 he wanted to watch Emeril and Alton Brown and own a kitchen, he got one for Christmas. 

 

I have a situation in my life where a parent of someone I care about has basically disowned them over them choosing to be honest and open with their parent. It backfired and they are hurting because of it. Through that, I have examined so many of the feelings I have for my child and what they could do for me to not support them. I'm not saying I'll be crazy about everything my ds does in his life, or that I wouldn't intervene with harmful situations, but I will never stop loving him. 

 

I was watching Doctor Who "Vincent and the Doctor" the other day. He talked about life being the good and bad piles and that somehow we can be part of the good pile even if the bad pile wins in the end. He said one does not negate the other, that good piles are still good piles. I want my son to put my interactions with him in the good pile (we had one today) because, you know, life is hard enough. I want to be a safe place for my kid, even if his behavior is something I don't understand. 

[merry gardens]

I do understand what you are saying. I guess that to me, it matters because there is a line between looking on and disagreeing and looking on and actively attempting to suppress someone else's attempt to live a life that is meaningful to them. Honestly, I don't care what people really, actually believe about transgender people (I mean, I wish that everyone would make an attempt to understand, but in the end, people have to freedom to believe what they want). I do, however, care whether people go out of their way to express disapproval of something that really, honestly doesn't affect them and in so doing cause real, actual, tangible harm to the people it does affect.

 

I'm sure your son wouldn't be super happy if you suddenly declared yourself his younger sister. But, as I have had to remind my dd20 over the years, a dd who suffered many unfortunate circumstances and experiences in her young life before joining our family, life is full of hard knocks, for everyone, and we can either dwell on them and bemoan our misfortune or we can, to some degree, buck up and accept that not everything that affects us is about us. If my mother suddenly became my father, I would grieve the loss of my mother and also work to accept and find happiness in the changed circumstances. I'm not saying that families of transgender kids should just suddenly and radically change their entire paradigm (tra-la-la) with nary a feeling of confusion, anger, grief, or what-have-you. What I am saying is that in our love and care for other people, we work to come to acceptance of the fact that our desires and beliefs about the people we love don't take precedence over their own. And that if we are truly outsiders, for whom the entire issue is merely an academic one, we simply do what we can to cause no harm to others.

 

I understand that people have a right to their own opinions. It just grieves me that the feelings of real, live, vulnerable human beings don't seem to be super important and that insisting that someone else's personal experience of life is flawed, warped, wrong, weird, etc., takes precedence over kindness. This is the climate that contributes to a 40-50% rate of attempted suicide by transgender people, and I really have to ask ... is your need to be right really worth creating such a dangerous and damaging cultural climate for someone else (and when I say "you," I mean the general you, not you specifically)? Is your need to be right worth more than another person's very life?

It's almost as if some people hold their own lives hostage--"Give me what I want or I'm going to kill myself!"  When people in a hostage situation, where someone is threatening to kill someone unless they get what they want, the hostages still don't always make it out alive even if the gunman is given what he wants. Negotiations with someone who is willing to kill a human being is very tricky because they don't think that human life has the innate value that we think it has.

 

I have a dear friend who committed suicide--not over any issues of gender but she had struggled with mental illness. It was not her first attempt, but it was her last. After she succeeding in killing herself, I wondered if I might have been able to have done something different. She was a college friend and former roommate, but we were no longer in college. Her mother struggled terribly with her daughter's death.  Suicide is certainly not a problem that is exclusive to those who struggle with gender confusion--it is a problem shared sometimes found in those struggling with mental illness. 

 

You site statistics about the high rate of suicide attempts with transgender people that you cited.  How can we be sure that high rate of suicide because they were not accepted--and if so, how do we explain the suicide of people we loved and accepted?  Might suicide attempts be related to something else, like it was in my completely hetero-sexual, cis-gendered friend? She was mentally unhealthy.  She'd struggled with a distorted body image for years with a disease called Anorexia Nervosa.  She thought she was fat, when she was far too thin.  When she was struggling with her eating disorder, I don't think it would have been kind of me or any medical professional to conclude with her that she was indeed fat since she thought she was fat. It would have prevented her from getting to a healthier weight--and at one point her low weight posed a serious threat her health.  It may be the her self-starvation caused harm to her brain over the years--or it may be that something wasn't quite right in the first place and first expressed itself as anorexia before others.  Either way, whatever the underlying cause, she was not mentally healthy and she eventually killed herself through very direct means.

 

Please do not think that I don't have sympathy for those who might do themselves harm or whose body image does not match up to their mental images. However, it may be a tragic flaw to assume that simply allowing someone whose body image does not match to their mental image to continue to live as if their mind is will correct the underlying problem. My friend killed herself because she was mentally ill.  Statistics seem to show that even apart from gender identity, many people who struggle with gender issues also struggle with mental illness. It used to be that psychologist thought that the gender issues were in and of themselves a mental illness.  Setting that aside, many still have other mental health issues that can be diagnosed using present day criteria. If they have a higher suicide rate, it may be that they struggle with issues related to what killed my friend.  Saying that someone who is mentally unhealthy is mentally unhealthy is not unkind. It may be something that needs to be said (very carefully and with great love) so that the person will get the help that he or she needs.

 

It's quite normal for people to examine themselves after a friend or loved one commits or attempts suicide to ask what might have been done to prevent it, but that doesn't mean that the conclusions they draw are always correct. Mentally unhealthy people sometimes commit suicide, even after their friends and loves ones have tried everything in their power to prevent it. Giving them what they want may only be a temporary fix, while the underlying problem remains.  If they don't not truly believe their lives hold value simply because they are human beings, it may not ultimately make any difference to them if they are a man or a woman because they don't see themselves as a human being of worth.

[Tanaqui]

How can we be sure that high rate of suicide because they were not accepted?

 

On an individual basis, we can't be.

 

However, when discussing the aggregate, we can - because we can compare the trajectory of trans individuals who face significant opposition with those who don't. One group of them has a much lower rate of suicide and depression.

[Mrs Mungo]

On an individual basis, we can't be.

 

However, when discussing the aggregate, we can - because we can compare the trajectory of trans individuals who face significant opposition with those who don't. One group of them has a much lower rate of suicide and depression.

Take another group with high suicide rates-war veterans. We *generally* understand certain risk factors (not having support from family, for example) and we understand what can help most people (peer counseling, for example). The military, including chaplains and health care professionals can't make any guarantees (as Lucy articulated above), but we do have some understanding of what generally helps and what generally hurts. Not having the support of your immediate family is a big hurt. It is like the rick of wood that broke the camel's back instead of the straw.

[Haiku]

I have a dear friend who committed suicide

 

I am very sorry for the loss of your friend. I know that it is a terribly difficult thing to come to grips with.

 

We can never know for sure what the underlying causes of suicide are or how it could have been prevented. It is a complex mixture of things. My dd has HIV, and she has endured stigma because of this. She also has depression and has endured stigma because of this. She is also transracially adopted and has endured stigma because of this. She also has learning disabilities and has endured stigma because of this. Were the unthinkable to happen, it would be difficult, indeed, to tease out specific causes or place blame squarely on one or another thing or person. However, it would not be outrageous to say that stigmatization can result in depression and other negative mental health effects and that lessening stigma results in better mental health outcomes for stigmatized groups. Anecdotally, I have seen in the lives of several of my friends with gender and sexuality variants that their depression and other struggles with negative self-concept are greatly alleviated or, in fact, vanish entirely when they move from a stigmatizing, negative environment to one that is accepting. In fact, with my own daughter and her (non-gender-related) struggles, implementing tools I learned in attachment therapy that helped to create an overall more positive environment certainly contributed to an improvement in her mental health and functioning.

 

I will, however, defer to the DSM information on gender dysphoria that was quoted upthread and which clearly lays out the preferred form of treatment: reassignment to the expressed gender. Whether one believes that gender dysphoria is a mental illness or simply an expression of underlying brain structure and chemistry, it is clear that there is a treatment that results in the best outcomes for the person involved, and that is gender expression that corresponds with gender identity. So if someone's argument is, "But people with gender-variant identity have a mental illness!" then the logical next step is to treat that person in the professionally accepted way, which is to honor their identity. In that way, your comparison to anorexia is not quite accurate, although I get what you were getting at. If I told my dd, "You're not really depressed, you just think you are. It's probably just a phase, and if you just act like you are happy, things will work out," that would be ludicrous given that we know that anti-depressants have a high level of efficacy in treating depression and that simply denying the fact of depression or refusing to accept it because of how it makes me feel are not logical ways to deal with the issue.

[LucyStoner]

In this case probably more: "Because you, my own parents, can't find it in yourselves to love me for who I am, I certainly can't expect that from the rest of society and life is just too painful to live."

 

What you said makes the whole thing sound vengeful. You don't kill yourself to make other people feel bad; you do it because you feel so bad you don't want to continue living.

I don't doubt the parents loved their child. But love is not enough in any relationship. Lots of people do horrible things to the people they love most. What Leelah needed more than love, or rather alongside love, was respect, understanding, tolerance and a little bit more freedom. The parents loved their child but they didn't realize they can't control a nearly grown child to that extent.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't doubt the parents loved their child. But love is not enough in any relationship. Lots of people do horrible things to the people they love most. What Leelah needed more than love, or rather alongside love, was respect, understanding, tolerance and a little bit more freedom. The parents loved their child but they didn't realize they can't control a nearly grown child to that extent.

Agreed, furthermore, the reason for discussion isn't to heap guilt upon the parents. The reason for the discussion is a desire to make things better for other teens in similar situations.

[Haiku]

I don't really like the comments about the parents. If they had mourned the loss of the son and accepted their daughter she would be alive etc... Have some charity towards people who are facing a terrible and very public tragedy. Mourning the loss of a child is bad enough. Mourning the loss in front of judgemental social and national media is going to be a disaster for them emotionally. It can only hurt them in the process. Being forced to defend themselves is unlikely to lead them to any emotional acceptance or growth. And since that is the only good that could come out of this (that they and people like them grow in understanding and compassion toward trans kids) why would we want to stand in the way of it?

 

I don't think anyone wishes to stand in the way of it. I'm not picketing outside their home.

 

I think that the frustration with the parents comes in large part from the fact that Leelah Alcorn is not the first transgender child to commit suicide and have their story told in the news. Information about transgender kids, and gay kids, and all other sorts of sexual minority kids is out there and not hard to find. Yet again and again, we are confronted with stories of children whose parents mistreat them when they find themselves facing these issues. We watch the toll of kids who are killed or who commit suicide continue to rise, and we can't fathom why this continues. If every family has to go through their own journey, then it seems like this will never end. If every family has to start from scratch, then we will continue to watch children throw their lives away in despair. And then when we speak of it, scream of it, cry with anguish from it to try to get the information out there so that each individual family does NOT have to start from scratch and make the same mistakes of previous families, we are told that we are not tolerant of other people's beliefs.

 

If my child told me they were transgender, I would NOT make the mistakes that I have seen other families make. That does not guarantee that I wouldn't, in the end, lose my child. But it does at least mean that I wasn't upping the chances. Every time we watch a family deny information that could possibly save their child, the wound is scraped raw again. And for me, personally, it results in tremendous frustration and a measure of "You should have known better."

 

That's my take, anyway.

[Guest]

To answer the original question:

 

 

I have never given my kids free rein (as little ones) to choose their own clothing or to rename themselves (other than preferred nicknames), so I imagine I'd initially treat this the same way - wear what you like in the house, but within these ranges out of the house.

 

I've also tended to assume that my kids will be cis-gendered and heterosexual. 

 

I have mixed feelings about that, and am not sure what I would recommend to anyone else. 

 

My thought has been that we make a number of assumptions in our parenting...and not all of them turn out to be accurate... but that the essential piece is sending a clear message that each of our children owns his/her own life journey and that each has our unconditional love and support.

 

...but I see that parental assumptions could easily feel like parental expectations, which could add a burden of pain to some journeys which already carry much emotional intensity.

 

I've assumed that it would be possible to discern a difference between role-playing and gender identity issues, that having their be boundaries on the expression of role-playing in public, especially in a context of no negative emotional weight to those boundaries, wouldn't limit expression of mismatch.  ...but I've never parented a child with that challenge.

 

If we had a child who seemed to have a gender identity challenge, my first instinct would be to consult a qualified professional (to help us as parents as much as our child, since our knowledgeable support would be so important)

 

I don't see this as in any way conflicting with our faith.  Issues of sexual orientation are more challenging to navigate, but this, as I understand it, is a medical issue, and I would no more want to go by my own limited experience and knowledge than I would with (G-d forbid) cancer or an endocrine disorder. 

 

I am baffled that it could appear a religious conflict...

 

...or that the concept of biological sex and the brain chemistry of gender identity as two different pieces would be controversial.  Yes, they usually align, but given that they are separate pieces and are determined at different times in utero, the possibility for misalignment seems clear and, again, uncontroversial.

 

There would be halachic (Jewish Law) issues to work through in a number of areas... but not in acknowledging the reality of a child's medical diagnosis, or in working with qualified professionals to find the best treatment plan for that specific child. 

 

...and most of those issues wouldn't be *mine*, they'd be my child's as s/he grew older.  ...and while we'd want to offer any help or support we could, navigating those challenges wouldn't be our task.

 

With all our children, at all times, we've wanted to be clear that our love and valuing of them isn't contingent on *anything*. 

 

...and should a child of our have such a challenge, my assumption would be that having this challenge is part of his/her purpose in the universe... not a shameful, wrong thing, but like having non-neurotypical brain wiring: it might make some things harder, but it offers its own gifts and opportunities.  ...and that figuring out how that will be manifested is his/her work, not ours. 

 

...as I think about it, I see that my thoughts about gender identity issues is, after all, rooted in a religious approach, in my deepest beliefs about hashgacha pratis (Divine Providence) and each soul's individual purpose in the world.

 

 

 

[December]

What are the actual percentages of suicides among transgender people who received help transitioning and those that faced only opposition? It would be interesting to see actual numbers.

[Ravin]

I believe you believe you are whatever you say you are.

 

Why is it important to you that I agree with your subjective assessment? That's an important question, I think.

 

 

Why am I (as a member of the public, say) forced to abandon objective facts? (I don't know what the facts are here; I have no idea if you were born or claim to be a woman or a man, or which was the birth designation, but I'm just speaking to the idea itself, since someone said that you identify with this group, which I did not know.)

You aren't being asked to abandon objective facts, only to stop favouring some objective facts to the exclusion of others with no rational reason for doing so.

[LucyStoner]

What are the actual percentages of suicides among transgender people who received help transitioning and those that faced only opposition? It would be interesting to see actual numbers.

The research isn't that cut and dry. more data collection is needed. I

 

Page 11 shows the rate of suicide attempts for people who have experienced various forms of bullying or discrimination. Page 12 shows a lower rate of attempts made by people with family and friend support. This only deals with study participants who have not died though.

 

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

[Ravin]

Lol. How about we stick to the issues and don't intentionally call anyone names or insult them?

 

I kind of thought that was the concept on forums. Silly me...I thought we were supposed to discuss ideas, not attack people directly and call them names.

 

I'm so boringly adult.

That boat sailed when you said I'm either delusional or a liar.

[Guest]

 

See, each person in this scenario you present believed the OTHER was denying true identity. There are two sides here, not just one.  Mom/Dad wanted their son to be a son, and the young person was demanding they see their son they gave birth to as a girl. 

 

Two sides. 

 

That does encapsulate one aspect of the situation.

 

The parents believe(d) that physical sex always correlates with gender, and the child believed that, despite having a male physical sex, that her gender, her brain chemistry, was female. 

 

As a parent, I have, unthinkingly, made the same assumption - my kids each have a certain physical sex, and I have assumed that this physical sex correlates to each one's gender (and, so far, that has been the case).

 

The question is: what do you or I do as a mother should one of our children be in this child's situation?

 

The two extreme positions are:

 

1) Hold tight to our assumptions (or, in your case, certainties)

 

2) Go along with our child's certainties.

 

...but I see a middle position.  Involve knowledgeable professionals who can support and guide both us and our child.  (and in option #2, involving professionals would also be the optimal path)

 

And as part of that middle position, I would want to study everything I could get my hands on to better understand the current medical knowledge.

 

But even if the extremes were the only choices, what could possibly be gained by #1?  ...or by continuing to hold on to that approach over a prolonged period of time?

 

The analogy that came to my mind was Jewishness.  I believe with absolute, unwavering certainty that being Jewish isn't something one can walk away from. 

 

If (G-d forbid), one of my teens or young adults denied his/her Jewish identity, my certainty would not move a millimeter, but I would, perhaps not immediately, accept his/her self-labeling, and (with no delays!), still offer my unconditional love and support. 

 

If I held your certainties about gender identity, I would see no purpose in not respecting someone else's self-naming.  I might believe s/he was mistaken, but what would I accomplish by not using the name and pronouns s/he wished?  ...and all the more so with my own child, to whom I have so much more power to cause harm and pain.

[Ravin]

No, you might want to re-read what I said; I ask a question, probably a question with no answer. But I do wonder. And objectively in this case, this kid DID have just two years. It isn't as if the kid were dying of some awful thing and there were no reprieve in the offing.

 

Oh, and it is disgusting to post "F You" to your parents publically, regardless of who you are or what your reasons. Sue me. I own that.

 

 

ME: I see it more as speaking the objective truth. This family that has lost their oldest child DID have a son, though no one seems willing to acknowledge their loss of their oldest son. We have to play word games at such at time. Appalling.

 

Even more appalling was the subsequent scheduled post by the young person, thanking a couple of friends, telling the sibs they would be missed and a great big "F*** YOU!" to the parents in a public forum. That makes me want to vomit. What a vengeful move.

 

The kid had two years, and out the door, if that was what was desired. Two years.

 

The really interesting question to me here is why some will persevere despite what they perceive as (or what are objectively...i.e. concentration camp or prison) horrible surroundings, and others fold? This isn't theoretical to me, as I have lost people close to me, and I still wonder why. Same family. One perseveres, one folds, sometimes even under the same contraints or circumstances. Why?

 

But here I am getting back to ideas, if anyone cares to actually discuss them, rather than hurl insults my direction.

That's only part of what you wrote, and not the part I was referring to.

 

Someone experiencing severe depression does not think clearly and cannot see the long term goal as achievable. The catastrophic thinking in Leelah's post is obvious. It doesn't make sense because it is an irrational thought pattern, one characteristic of severe depression.

 

I'm sure Leelah's parents believed they had a son. Most parents of transgender children go through a grieving process over that loss--of the person they thought their child was or was intended to become. That is normal. That it didn't happen while Leelah got on with her life is tragic from any viewpoint.

 

Her parents had effectively been giving her an "f" you message for years. I thought you appreciated directness?

[Ravin]

Talking about ideas is fine. How is this so difficult to understand?

 

If I say Democrats have some really bad ideas, or this Democratic President is the worst (for example), I am discussing IDEAS that the DEMOCRATIC PARTY HOLDS. President Obama might be a rocking guy to know personally. How is this unclear?

 

Same thing here, or pretty much with any topic. You can discuss an issue or a set of facts, and often do, because it happened between some people in the media. You can agree with one side or the other, think one group or the other has the correct values, but that does not mean you are personally insulting the one with which you disagree...does it?

Not to me.

I believe you think you aren't being insulting. But it's hard to ignore objective facts.

[Ravin]

Here is what you don't get: MOM lost a MALE child, her oldest son.

 

Whether son thought he was a son anymore or not, this is the loss that mom grieves. She gave birth to a baby boy, with all the hopes and dreams that this entails. This is what she has lost.

 

 

Surely, you aren't unable to see this entirely. Even those who have accepted gender switches in their kids grieve the loss of the child they knew - look at Cher. She discussed this very thing, about how it was like the "death" of Chastity, her daughter, when Chaz came into being, and she had to grieve that.

 

Why do you (general you, those who are castigating the parents) not allow these parents that dignity to grieve what they lost? That's amazing to me.

We do. But we would rather they do that while Leelah was still alive.

[Mrs Mungo]

Editing because the quote function isn't working right on my computer, I am switching to my phone to post. Please forgive any autocorrect madness.

 

...but I see a middle position. Involve knowledgeable professionals who can support and guide both us and our child. (and in option #2, involving professionals would also be the optimal path)

 

And as part of that middle position, I would want to study everything I could get my hands on to better understand the current medical knowledge.

And I think this is the path most people who are educated on the subjected at all (which is different than being educated in general) would take. This is the path taken by the child known as Nicole discussed in the other link.

 

 

If I held your certainties about gender identity, I would see no purpose in not respecting someone else's self-naming. I might believe s/he was mistaken, but what would I accomplish by not using the name and pronouns s/he wished? ...and all the more so with my own child, to whom I have so much more power to cause harm and pain.

I agree.

 

Furthermore, I whole-heartedly disagree with the notion that people who choose differently from their parents are actively rejecting the values of their parents or sending them an F you message.

 

My kids have grown up in the military community. If one became an anti-war activist based upon their own life experiences (their dad being gone, the stress of having your dad at risk, the stress of seeing your parents attempt to reintegrate as a family, seeing friends of the family commit suicide, having friends whose dads were killed, hearing stories of war and battle, etc), then it might FEEL like a rejection of our values and/or like a big F you. But, I would know logically that it wasn't. I would have to find a way to come to terms with their decisions as independent of myself and my husband.

[DragonFaerie]

I'm having some trouble with the distinction that the girl's parents were mourning the loss of a SON.  Why is that so much more important than that they were mourning the loss of their CHILD?  When a baby is born, it seems as though most people say, "I don't care if it's a boy or a girl, just that my baby is healthy."  When would that change such that they have to mourn their SON versus mourning their CHILD?  As I've been reading this, I've been trying to imagine what it would be like if one of my children came to me and told me they felt like they were the wrong gender.  I can't see loving my son any less if he were another daughter nor loving my daughter any less than loving another son.  And maybe it's because I'm not in this situation, but I really don't understand this attitude that the gender is more important than the child.

[Haiku]

One thing that I have been pondering is that, in the CNN article I posted, Carla Alcorn stated that she had exactly one conversation with her child about the child's feelings of being transgender. This leads me to wonder ... when your child comes to you with something as big as "I think I am in the wrong body," why is it something that is discussed only one time in two years? If that were my child, you can bet your sweet turnips that it would be an ongoing discussion. Unless the parent simply doesn't want to discuss it and hopes it will go away, how can that issue NOT be one that entails multiple discussions?

[albeto.]

Is there some religious or moral tenet which states that external genitalia is the true test of who a person is and should be?

Just a guess, but I think it might have something to do with ideas like this:

 

God doesn't make mistakes.

And the idea that people who don't conform to subjectively determined biblical standards are quite possibly, simply throwing temper tantrums.

 

It's almost as if some people hold their own lives hostage...

[sunflowerlady]

I have been thinking about the grieving thing also. I can totally see and understand a parent going through a grieving process when they find out their child is transgender. I have a daughter who is a teenager now. If she came out as transgender I would feel a.loss of the daughter I have had for a decade and a half. But I think that is where professional help and guidance would come in.

 

A family member can go through the grieving process and still love and support their child. I am sure transgender people know it can be a difficult thing for their families. I am also sure counselors and therapists know that it is a process for everyone and that it includes feelings of loss and grief.

 

I would prefer to walk through the process with my child.

[Guest]

For me, this is what the whole debate comes down to. Can we accept it when our children choose differently than we do? Don't we have to? Isn't it inherently *irrational* to deny who they say they are? It isn't *impossoble* (as has been claimed) for Christian parents to accept that their child is atheist, gay or gender non-conforming, even if it is hard.

 

:iagree:

 

I can see that it would be hard to have a child choose a different life than one rooted in the values and traditions we've tried to transmit...I suspect I would grieve that... but to my husband, my mother, my parents in law... not to the child in question.

 

I believe passionately that we each own our own journey.  My children aren't *mine* they are their own people.  And it isn't my job to direct their life's direction.

 

...my influence is in the things I share with them when they are young and the love and trust I hope we have between us... but how could a child really trust me if s/he didn't know that no matter what happened, no matter who s/he was, I would have his/her back?  That my love and valuing wasn't contingent on any of his/her choices? 

 

I think our teens/young adults need to hear and see from us that we trust them to find their own path in life, to be their own people.

 

My faith has non-negotiable definitions of marriage and of permissible types of intimacy.  My faith is the center of my life and I try to live every aspect of my life in accordance with Torah values and halacha (Jewish Law)..what I eat, what I wear, what I read/see/listen to, how I speak, everything.

 

...and I believe that being Jewish isn't something one can walk away from, that we have an eternal covenant with G-d which has a host of responsibilities that come with it...and that my own obligation is not complete as long as a fellow Jew might need support to achieve his/her obligations.

 

With all of that, I still hold that my obligation to my teen or adult child is unconditional love, acceptance that s/he owns his/her own journey, and open arms... and to be there if my opinion or advice is ever wanted. 

 

Further than that, I believe that denying my child that support could destroy his/her connection to our faith and people... faith should have your back, your community should be a safe place... even if you walk away from them or their choices, for whatever reason. 

 

It isn't just *possible* to accept our children for who they are, I believe it to be one of our highest obligations as their parents.

[TranquilMind]

"i'm more rational than that." is not kind because it reads like you're implying that others are not.  Do you see that?

 

No, I just see rational as the opposite of emotional on the spectrum.  I think we all swing a bit, from time to time, especially in times of trauma or stress, but mostly have a typical "place" we reside.  It was merely descriptive. 

[albeto.]

One thing that I have been pondering is that, in the CNN article I posted, Carla Alcorn stated that she had exactly one conversation with her child about the child's feelings of being transgender. This leads me to wonder ... when your child comes to you with something as big as "I think I am in the wrong body," why is it something that is discussed only one time in two years? If that were my child, you can bet your sweet turnips that it would be an ongoing discussion. Unless the parent simply doesn't want to discuss it and hopes it will go away, how can that issue NOT be one that entails multiple discussions?

 

I don't know if it's been shared here yet, but Leelah's reddit posts don't coincide with her mother's interviews. There was more attention than a conversation or two.

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/2km6yt/is_this_considered_abuse/

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

 

calandalsmom, on 02 Jan 2015 - 1:12 PM, said:

Is there some religious or moral tenet which states that external genitalia is the true test of who a person is and should be?

Just a guess, but I think it might have something to do with ideas like this:

 

Kinsa, on 02 Jan 2015 - 2:53 PM, said:

God doesn't make mistakes.

And the idea that people who don't conform to biblical standards are quite possibly, simply throwing temper tantrums.

 

merry gardens, on 02 Jan 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

It's almost as if some people hold their own lives hostage...

 

I believe G-d doesn't make mistakes, but, to me, the logical conclusion from that is that someone's transgender-ness isn't a mistake, it is part of who that person is and needs to be in the world... it is part of what s/he has to offer from his/her unique soul.

 

There needs to be another component there...

 

I think the second quote shows a sadly common misperception of depression and suicidal intentions.

 

..that one might feel scared or powerless in the face of another's pain and suicidal-ness doesn't mean that other is being manipulative, or trying to make one feel boxed into a corner...

[TranquilMind]

Furthermore, I whole-heartedly disagree with the notion that people who choose differently from their parents are actively rejecting the values of their parents or sending them an F you message.

 

 

Well, that is likely in most cases.

In this particular case, the kid posted it in the line-up to post after the suicide - a big "F You" to my parents, so that was precisely what happened.   

[LucyStoner]

Just a guess, but I think it might have something to do with ideas like this:

 

 

I can't speak for Kinsa but I think you are maybe taking her saying "God makes no mistakes" not in the spirit she intended it.

 

I think what she was saying is that God makes no mistakes and she would try to accept her child no matter what because whatever they are, God made them.

 

I personally take it more like the Lady Gaga song, not to get all glee up in here.

 

[TranquilMind]

One thing that I have been pondering is that, in the CNN article I posted, Carla Alcorn stated that she had exactly one conversation with her child about the child's feelings of being transgender. This leads me to wonder ... when your child comes to you with something as big as "I think I am in the wrong body," why is it something that is discussed only one time in two years? If that were my child, you can bet your sweet turnips that it would be an ongoing discussion. Unless the parent simply doesn't want to discuss it and hopes it will go away, how can that issue NOT be one that entails multiple discussions?

Both could be correct.

Mom remembers one big, memorable conversation, no doubt, but the kid remembers every hint or suggestion or even unrelated thing, such as the parents saying the family was going to do something else tonight, as a comment on the life choices.  

[TranquilMind]

We do. But we would rather they do that while Leelah was still alive.

Everyone would prefer that. 

 

I think I can pretty well guess that the parents are sitting in their home tonight wondering where they went wrong, and what they should have done instead, and regretting every single thing that ever happened. 

[TranquilMind]

I'm having some trouble with the distinction that the girl's parents were mourning the loss of a SON.  Why is that so much more important than that they were mourning the loss of their CHILD?  When a baby is born, it seems as though most people say, "I don't care if it's a boy or a girl, just that my baby is healthy."  When would that change such that they have to mourn their SON versus mourning their CHILD?  As I've been reading this, I've been trying to imagine what it would be like if one of my children came to me and told me they felt like they were the wrong gender.  I can't see loving my son any less if he were another daughter nor loving my daughter any less than loving another son.  And maybe it's because I'm not in this situation, but I really don't understand this attitude that the gender is more important than the child.

No one is saying that the gender is more important than the child.  ??

 

But the parents lost their son, the son they gave birth to, but will never see grow older now.  They could have given birth to a daughter or twins or anything else, but their firstborn child was a son.  They wrote an obituary about the loss of their son.   I think that should be respected.  It will be a long time before they can entertain other thoughts, no doubt. 

[Runningmom80]

Sigh.

 

This thread is depressing. And so are the poll results. (though I don't know ... I'm guessing it's better than it would have been even 5 yrs ago...)

Agreed. It's disappointing as well as depressing.

[TranquilMind]

I believe you think you aren't being insulting. But it's hard to ignore objective facts.

Which "objective facts" would those be?  I'm thinking we are talking about an emotional reaction instead, which is just about as far as you can get from objective facts. 

[Haiku]

I don't know if it's been shared here yet, but Leelah's reddit posts don't coincide with her mother's interviews. There was more attention than a conversation or two.

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/2km6yt/is_this_considered_abuse/

Oh my word. That makes me sick! That poor girl. And her mother knew what she did was wrong and lied about it!

[TranquilMind]

That's only part of what you wrote, and not the part I was referring to.

 

Someone experiencing severe depression does not think clearly and cannot see the long term goal as achievable. The catastrophic thinking in Leelah's post is obvious. It doesn't make sense because it is an irrational thought pattern, one characteristic of severe depression.

 

I'm sure Leelah's parents believed they had a son. Most parents of transgender children go through a grieving process over that loss--of the person they thought their child was or was intended to become. That is normal. That it didn't happen while Leelah got on with her life is tragic from any viewpoint.

 

Her parents had effectively been giving her an "f" you message for years. I thought you appreciated directness?

No argument with your first three statements up there, but the final one is a head-scratcher. 

 

The parents of this child who committed suicide were saying "F you" to their child because they did not agree that their child should start calling himself a girl now?  Those two things equate in your mind? 

 

Not agreeing with his decision is not saying "F you" by any stretch of the imagination.

[albeto.]

I can't speak for Kinsa but I think you are maybe taking her saying "God makes no mistakes" not in the spirit she intended it.

Thanks for pointing that out. When I snapped that phrase, I didn't mean to call out Kinsa, but the idea. Interestingly enough, when I went to find the reddit post I'd heard about earlier, guess what sentiment is right there at the beginning.

 

Hi, I'm Leelah, 16 and MtF/dmab. Ever since I was around 4 or 5 I knew I was a girl, just like most of the lovely ladies on here, but I didn't actually understand that it was possible to successfully change genders until I was 14. As soon as I found out what transgender meant, I came out to my mom. She reacted extremely negatively, telling me that it was a phase, that I would never truly be a girl, that God doesn’t make mistakes, that I am wrong, and it felt awful.

I think what she was saying is that God makes no mistakes and she would try to accept her child no matter what because whatever they are, God made them.

I get that from her, and from Eliana, and my knee-jerk reaction is to make some joke about drinking responsibly, only applying it to religion. People like Eliana and Kins, and so many people here do just that - use religion "responsibly." But I can't make that joke because, well, because how do you determine that? How do you determine what "responsible religion" is? What it looks like? With alcohol, we have some objective data to work with. We know the effects of alcohol on the brain, and we can calculate with some reliability how much alcohol will affect a person with a certain body weight. Most people are familiar enough with alcohol to know how it will affect them personally. But we don't live in a society where drinking alcohol is celebrated like being religious is. We don't have politicians who proudly tell us how much they drink, and how they can drink responsibly even tipping back more than their neighbor. We do however, have a society that values religious belief over objective data so much that an entire political party's presidential candidates fell over each other to assure the voters they were more religious than anyone else. This is why I keep coming back the problem of no accountability. Leelah's parents believed, like so many other parents believe, like parents reading this very conversation believe, that a child who think she's born wrong thinks God made a mistake, or God's will isn't more important than her instant gratification. The link you linked earlier about the seven sins doesn't do any good when people read into the concept of "God's love" by virtue of the rest of their belief system. So yeah, I didn't mean to call out Kinsa's comment, but the sentiment behind it. It's a loaded gun, and it's dangerous.

 

I personally take it more like the Lady Gaga song, not to get all glee up in here.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=15QAgfoDNPg

It's better than how Leelah's parents took it, for sure. It should surprise you not at all to know I have a different take on it altogether. ;)

[DragonFaerie]

I believe G-d doesn't make mistakes, but, to me, the logical conclusion from that is that someone's transgender-ness isn't a mistake, it is part of who that person is and needs to be in the world... it is part of what s/he has to offer from his/her unique soul.

 

 

This is what I think, too.  Perhaps that person needed to go through that transition in order to better handle something coming in their future.  Or maybe it is to help them better be able to understand and help someone else down the road.  That person's being trans may not have anything to do with themselves and everything to do with lessons for those around them.  No one knows the master plan here.  But I do not think anyone is a mistake.  Ever.

 

[TranquilMind]

Oh my word. That makes me sick! That poor girl. And her mother knew what she did was wrong and lied about it!

So the kid's presentation of the facts is absolutely accurate on its face - not distorted in any way - and the mother is "lying".

 

Unbelievable.

 

Please, don't ever be an attorney. 

[DragonFaerie]

No one is saying that the gender is more important than the child.  ??

 

But the parents lost their son, the son they gave birth to, but will never see grow older now.  They could have given birth to a daughter or twins or anything else, but their firstborn child was a son.  They wrote an obituary about the loss of their son.   I think that should be respected.  It will be a long time before they can entertain other thoughts, no doubt. 

 

This is exactly what I mean.  "The parents lost their son."  No, they lost their CHILD.  Son or daughter does not matter in the least.  I don't understand the emphasis on "son."

[TranquilMind]

This is exactly what I mean.  "The parents lost their son."  No, they lost their CHILD.  Son or daughter does not matter in the least.  I don't understand the emphasis on "son."

The emphasis is that this is what this child happened to be and how they knew this child, as their first-born son.  If they lost their daughter, they would have written an obit to that effect.  This is their reality.

[LucyStoner]

Thanks for pointing that out. When I snapped that phrase, I didn't mean to call out Kinsa, but the idea.

 

The link you linked earlier about the seven sins doesn't do any good when people read into the concept of "God's love" by virtue of the rest of their belief system.

To the first thing, fair enough, I see what you are saying. It can be used to mean more than one thing. I don't disagree that it can be used negatively, very negatively.

 

The second thing though, I am baffled. I don't recall linking to anything about 7 sins? Have you mixed me up with someone else? Or have I been making links I forget, lol?

[LucyStoner]

Focusing on the F word is not seeing the forest for the trees. It's a word, not some horrible unforgivable act.

[Scrub Jay]

So the kid's presentation of the facts is absolutely accurate on its face - not distorted in any way - and the mother is "lying".

 

Unbelievable.

 

Please, don't ever be an attorney. 

 

Did you see the date on that forum post?

 

What about that post makes you think she was lying about her parents?

 

[albeto.]

To the first thing, fair enough, I see what you are saying. It can be used to mean more than one thing. I don't disagree that it can be used negatively, very negatively.

 

The second thing though, I am baffled. I don't recall linking to anything about 7 sins? Have you mixed me up with someone else? Or have I been making links I forget, lol?

 

I must have remembered something wrong. There was a link, I thought you posted it. It was about seven things (?) parents do wrong, or should do right, and it ended with the idea that above all, they should remember to love like Jesus loves. Or something vague and evasive like that. But it's not important. It was offered in kindness and it was taken in kindness. I just took issue with the idea of doing things inspired by God's Own Kind Of Love, because that means different things to different people.

[LucyStoner]

I must have remembered something wrong. There was a link, I thought you posted it. It was about seven things (?) parents do wrong, or should do right, and it ended with the idea that above all, they should remember to love like Jesus loves. Or something vague and evasive like that. But it's not important. It was offered in kindness and it was taken in kindness. I just took issue with the idea of doing things inspired by God's Own Kind Of Love, because that means different things to different people.

Albeto you slay me. The Jesus thing didn't clue you in that it wasn't me? Really?

 

(This is in jest people - Albeto knows I love her in a non-god like way no matter how much my auto correct tries to call her Alberto.)

[albeto.]

Albeto you slay me. The Jesus thing didn't clue you in that it wasn't me? Really?

 

(This is in jest people - Albeto knows I love her in a non-god like way no matter how much my auto correct tries to call her Alberto.)

 

 

:laugh:

 

D'oh! You're right.

 

Mea Culpa.

 

^_^

[TranquilMind]

Recently I heard someone say, "I work with this girl, she is black, but she is actually a hard worker!" This is insulting to black people as it implies that most black people are not hard working. Many of the comments in this thread are similar. It doesn't matter whether or not the insult was intentional.

Um, no.  That is quite distinct from anything that I said.  Period.  Full stop.

[LucyStoner]

Um, no. That is quite distinct from anything that I said. Period. Full stop.

TM, perhaps you could stop making this thread about you defending yourself? And you attacking people while claiming you are being attacked (as opposed to your opinions being disagreed with and your facts being challenged)? I mean seriously, you sound very defensive. I think you are projecting quite a bit onto other posters. This thread is not about you, it is about trans issues.