Hostage situation in Sydney, Australia

[Rosie_0801]

Are they saying it wasn't a terrorist act? To me, it was. Sorry for the upset in your land. It is hard to not be on edge at times such as this. Peace to you all. Hug your kids.

 

 

Nup. These things happen often enough, though not usually for so long or with so many hostages. It's world news because he had an Islamic flag with him.

[Stacia]

I just want to cry for the families & friends who have lost loved ones.... It's heartbreaking. (I just read that it was the store manager & a barrister who worked across the street who were killed, in addition to the hostage-taker.)

 

:grouphug:

[Forget-Me-Not]

Do we know if they were killed by the perpetrator? Or caught in the crossfire? How terrible and sad.

[Stacia]

Do we know if they were killed by the perpetrator? Or caught in the crossfire? How terrible and sad.

 

Don't know. One article suggested that the police went in because shots were heard inside. But, I don't know how accurate that report is at this point.

[Pegs]

Victims were Katrina Dawson and Tori Johnson. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-16/two-hostages-killed-in-sydney-siege-identified/5969702

[Jasperstone]

Selfies? Show some class, people.

 

Taking advantage by charging $100? He should be charged with a crime, albeit a minor one.

 

I can't imagine the fear a Muslim woman living in Astrailia must be feeling now. The ride with you campaign is very comforting. Yay to whomever started it!!!

While I agree that they would be fearful now, wondering if there will be a backlash etc..... I would also like to add that us westerners can be just as fearful.

 

Yesterday at the shopping center I jumped out of my skin when a Muslim in the full black gear was wandering around alone. I wasn't sure if *she* was female or not as only the eyes were seen. I thought it was strange too as usually they have company, and aren't alone. Especially yesterday!

[Jasperstone]

Don't know. One article suggested that the police went in because shots were heard inside. But, I don't know how accurate that report is at this point.

That's right. The manager tried to grab the gun while the terrorist snoozed, but unfortunately was stuck by a bullet in the struggle. He died a hero. :'(

That's when the police stormed in etc. ..

[Jasperstone]

Nup. These things happen often enough, though not usually for so long or with so many hostages. It's world news because he had an Islamic flag with him.

 

To be fair it wouldn't matter what flag was shown....it would still make world news. It's a big event no matter who the perpetrator was.

[Ausmumof3]

There will be an inquiry before there's any certainty what happened. It appears that he was dozing, hostages started running, shots were heard then police entered.

[Rosie_0801]

To be fair it wouldn't matter what flag was shown....it would still make world news. It's a big event no matter who the perpetrator was.

 

Why? Because it was in a city cafe?

 

Sieges happen in suburbs every other week or so.

[Jasperstone]

Why? Because it was in a city cafe?

 

Sieges happen in suburbs every other week or so.

Because it's happened in a western country. And our way of life is changing.

[Jasperstone]

Changing to what?

From being a beautiful, laidback country that's free from this type of crap that has started happening. :-(

[Jasperstone]

Some of "us" westerners ARE Muslim, Jasperstone. Next.

So you would be outraged then too. I'm blaming the terrorist.

[Jasperstone]

I wish that people would stop unleashing there frustration on us that have had enough of this behavior. No matter what religion they are hiding under, terroism is revolting! And has to STOP!!!!!

[Ausmumof3]

So you would be outraged then too. I'm blaming the terrorist.

The attack has been widely condemned by local Muslim communities and Muslim leaders around the world. I think they are outraged.

[justasque]

While I agree that they would be fearful now, wondering if there will be a backlash etc..... I would also like to add that us westerners can be just as fearful.

 

Yesterday at the shopping center I jumped out of my skin when a Muslim in the full black gear was wandering around alone. I wasn't sure if *she* was female or not as only the eyes were seen. I thought it was strange too as usually they have company, and aren't alone. Especially yesterday!

 

Oh honey,  there's no need to be fearful.  There are fully veiled mamas in my neighborhood.  They are just doing the same things you and I are doing.  They are going to the bank, buying some fruit and veggies at the grocery store, picking up their kids from preschool - all the kinds of errands that all of us mamas do on a regular basis.  They are no more likely to cause any kind of trouble for you than any other mama you see on the street.  

[Jasperstone]

Oh honey, there's no need to be fearful. There are fully veiled mamas in my neighborhood. They are just doing the same things you and I are doing. They are going to the bank, buying some fruit and veggies at the grocery store, picking up their kids from preschool - all the kinds of errands that all of us mamas do on a regular basis. They are no more likely to cause any kind of trouble for you than any other mama you see on the street.

 

Thank you , I do understand that..... It was just that I was raw from yesterday's shock. And worried that another terrorist could be hiding under there.

[Rosie_0801]

Because it's happened in a western country. And our way of life is changing.

 

Why? Sieges happen in the suburbs every other week. Mentally ill people have been around forever. If it wasn't for criminals, us whitefellas wouldn't be here. Muslims have been in this country for centuries, longer than the whitefellas actually. 

 

What makes this guy a terrorist where every other nutter who holds people hostage is a mere criminal?

 

Beautiful country, yes. Laid back my foot. You know enough of our history not to believe in a golden age.

[Jasperstone]

First of all, the so-called criminals that were sent to Australia were mainly thieves- stealing loaves of bread etc. ...

 

Growing up here in Oz in the last 40 years has been wonderful and so peaceful. I'm proud to be an Australian And want the same Australia for my children and my children's children.

 

Every country has had a dark side. But that was over 200 years ago now.

[Shahrazad]

While I agree that they would be fearful now, wondering if there will be a backlash etc..... I would also like to add that us westerners can be just as fearful.

 

Yesterday at the shopping center I jumped out of my skin when a Muslim in the full black gear was wandering around alone. I wasn't sure if *she* was female or not as only the eyes were seen. I thought it was strange too as usually they have company, and aren't alone. Especially yesterday!

 

Well, I guess I would have scared you too since I dress the same way. It's OK, I get scared when I see a white guy walk into a school or mall myself ;) (*sarcasm*)

 

But seriously, it isn't a realistic risk that the niqaabi at the shopping center is going to jump you. For many of us who cover, however, we routinely are verbally and sometimes even physically threatened or assaulted. I carry pepper spray now because I have had people threaten my life and confront me when I was out alone with my small children.

 

Also, she is a human being and it is not unusual for a covered Muslim woman to be out alone. If you're seeing a person wearing those clothes, they are 98% likely to be female. The exception comes when men, Muslim or not, dress in it to try and hide their identity for the commission of a crime (which happens but is very rare).

[Rosie_0801]

First of all, the so-called criminals that were sent to Australia were mainly thieves- stealing loaves of bread etc. ...

 

Growing up here in Oz in the last 40 years has been wonderful and so peaceful. I'm proud to be an Australian And want the same Australia for my children and my children's children.

 

Every country has had a dark side. But that was over 200 years ago now.

 

First of all, you know as well as I do there were criminals of all kinds and people sent who probably hadn't done anything at all. None of this erases the point that this nasty blighter currently under discussion is not the first, last or only criminal ever housed here in Australia. Your way of life didn't change when he got shot.

 

It's nice that your family life has been so wonderful and peaceful, but you know that is not the reality of everyone here in this country because this isn't Heaven. Your way of life hasn't changed.

 

Thirdly, that's pigswill. If you've been here 40 years, I know you know more history than that.

 

I'd like a better Australia for my child and grandchildren. The current lot isn't good enough.

[Jasperstone]

First of all, you know as well as I do there were criminals of all kinds and people sent who probably hadn't done anything at all. None of this erases the point that this nasty blighter currently under discussion is not the first, last or only criminal ever housed here in Australia. Your way of life didn't change when he got shot.

 

It's nice that your family life has been so wonderful and peaceful, but you know that is not the reality of everyone here in this country because this isn't Heaven. Your way of life hasn't changed.

 

Thirdly, that's pigswill. If you've been here 40 years, I know you know more history than that.

 

I'd like a better Australia for my child and grandchildren. The current lot isn't good enough.

It was a *better* Australia growing up. The nightly news was filled with missing police dogs and such.....That's right- the current isn't good enough.

 

Sorry, but I know what I experienced here in this gorgeous land. If it wasn't like that for you, then I'm sad for you. As it truly was awesome!

 

I'll have to agree to disagree. As I can't change my experience to fit in with political correctness.

[Rosie_0801]

The nightly news wasn't filled with Islamophobia, that's for sure. What a good thing we're fighting that.

 

It might have been a better Australia for *you* growing up, but I know you know about all that stolen generation stuff, or maybe *your* life is no different and you're just watching more news because you're an adult. That stolen generation stuff was happening when you were growing up, to real people who count. The discrimination against refugees was happening back then too. The murders and hostage taking on the nightly news when we were growing up was just as real then as now too.

[Jasperstone]

Yes, stolen generation events were awful. Every country has had a dark side.

[Jasperstone]

The nightly news wasn't filled with Islamophobia, that's for sure. What a good thing we're fighting that.

Because there was no terrorists hiding under the banner of Isalm here in our country then.

[Rosie_0801]

Because there was no terrorist hiding under the banner of Isalm then, here in our country.

 

I think I'm repeating a question here, but why is this guy a terrorist instead of a criminal?

 

Back when we were growing up Muslim criminals were just criminals like every other criminal. Maybe some stuff was better in the olden days.

 

And I know I'm repeating- Muslims have been in Australia longer than white people.

[ktgrok]

Rosie, thank you for speaking up as a voice of logic.

[Rosie_0801]

Oops. I've been busted being patriotic. ;)

[ktgrok]

Oops. I've been busted being patriotic. ;)

 

Just logical :)

[Jasperstone]

I think I'm repeating a question here, but why is this guy a terrorist instead of a criminal?

 

Back when we were growing up Muslim criminals were just criminals like every other criminal. Maybe some stuff was better in the olden days.

 

And I know I'm repeating- Muslims have been in Australia longer than white people.

A terrorist is anyone who brings terror to people, and country.

 

Why do you have a problem seeing that in Islam there is an extreme group of people bring terror? I see it in other religions too, so not just pointing the finger at one group.

[Shahrazad]

Except, in a way, you are when you make comments like seeing a woman in Islamic garb makes you worry there is a terrorist under there. I doubt you'd say the same thing when you see a woman wearing a cross necklace or (insert other faith-related example).

[Rosie_0801]

A terrorist is anyone who brings terror to people, and country.

 

Why do you have a problem seeing that in Islam there is an extreme group of people bring terror? I see it in other religions too, so not just pointing the finger at one group.

 

To the question, I don't. I am yet to hear that this guy was a part of a terrorist organisation. 

 

To the rest, have you ever used that term to describe anyone who wasn't Muslim? For my part, the person who causes me the most terror is not a convicted criminal and the organisations that causes me the most terror (and I mean terror, not "mere" anxiety,) are part of our government/legal system. 

 

Why do you want to highlight extremism? Do you think it contributes to the maintenance and improvement of our society? Do you wish for people, including yourself, to be afraid of Muslims?

[Jasperstone]

To the question, I don't. I am yet to hear that this guy was a part of a terrorist organisation.

 

To the rest, have you ever used that term to describe anyone who wasn't Muslim? For my part, the person who causes me the most terror is not a convicted criminal and the organisations that causes me the most terror (and I mean terror, not "mere" anxiety,) are part of our government/legal system.

 

Why do you want to highlight extremism? Do you think it contributes to the maintenance and improvement of our society? Do you wish for people, including yourself, to be afraid of Muslims?

He wanted the Isis flag delivered.

[Joker]

A terrorist is anyone who brings terror to people, and country.

 

Why do you have a problem seeing that in Islam there is an extreme group of people bring terror? I see it in other religions too, so not just pointing the finger at one group.

 

To me, it seems like you are when you talk of being scared of a Muslim fully covered. Do you also get scared of Christians when another proclaimed Christian commits a crime in the name of God (or any other group)?

[Pegs]

The Stolen Generation didn't end with the 'Bringing Them Home' report of '97. If you want to talk about terror in Australia, how about starting with the five-fold increase in Aboriginal child removals between 1997 and 2013?

 

There is racism and deeply instituted oppression in this country, and it isn't coming from the Islamic community. Australia's early criminals were not petty thieves: they were powerful men responsible for rape and massacre, and the genocide is ongoing, albeit with less explicit violence.

 

Are you less scared of these horrors because you're not aware of them, or because they don't affect you?

[Jasperstone]

Oh, I have used that term on governments as well, Rosie- don't you worry about that. I'm with you there! ;-)

[Rosie_0801]

He wanted the Isis flag delivered.

 

Isis might use that flag, but it's properly called a Shahada flag, I believe. And you agree with half of what's written on it.

 

It's rather like the Nazis pinching the swastika.

 

 

Any comment on the rest of my questions?

[Rosie_0801]

The first segment here, just for fun:
 

[Stacia]

To the rest, have you ever used that term to describe anyone who wasn't Muslim?

 

Most certainly. Here in the US, we've had plenty of terrorist acts -- remember the bombing at the Atlanta Olympics? In Oklahoma City? At abortion clinics? The all-too-routine school shootings we read about multiple times every school year? We have a lot of homegrown terrorists/terrorist groups, many/most of whom are not Muslim.

 

From the Southern Poverty Law Center's page on hate & extremism, a few quotes...

 

The Southern Poverty Law Center monitors hate groups and other extremists throughout the United States and exposes their activities to law enforcement agencies, the media and the public.

 

Currently, there are 939 known hate groups operating across the country, including neo-Nazis, Klansmen, white nationalists, neo-Confederates, racist skinheads, black separatists, border vigilantes and others.

 

Since 2000, the number of hate groups has increased by 56 percent. This surge has been fueled by anger and fear over the nation’s ailing economy, an influx of non-white immigrants, and the diminishing white majority, as symbolized by the election of the nation’s first African-American president.

 

These factors also are feeding a powerful resurgence of the antigovernment “Patriot†movement, which in the 1990s led to a string of domestic terrorist plots, including the Oklahoma City bombing.

[Aelwydd]

Ahh.. You're right, I'm sorry. I read it when I was in a bad mood and it colored my perception.

No offense taken. I tried to convey my thoughts clearly but I am fighting a nasty sore throat and head cold. I didn't mean any insult to Christians, or to other faiths either.

[Jasperstone]

Aw, I get feeling weird and raw, JS. I couldn't sleep last night because it felt wrong to sleep while it was still going on, and then the siege was over I couldn't sleep because I was worried about the reports of casualties. And I'm a bit off my rocker today in consequence.

 

I do feel concerned that we have the highest number of citizens, proportionally, going off to fight with IS.

 

I don't conflate that with the every day Muslim women I see around. I did find the niquab really confronting when it first appeared in Sydney. I was scared of it, actually. What really helped was one day when I saw a niquabi trying to get her cranky toddlers onto the train and I could 'glimpse' the mum behind the veil, kwim ?

 

So I do understand that there can be strange and unsettling feelings around all these things JS.

 

In this case, we have a mentally disturbed criminal latching on to some elements of terror. I do believe the NSW Police have said that the man was a 'lone wolf' not part of something organised.

 

All that said, I do agree 100% with what Rosie said :) I really feel for anyone shaken up by the coverage and experience of this, including our Muslim friends.

 

Hugs to all.

 

 

Thanks Sadie. You are right- I'm too raw and it all was too close to home. I will bow out of this conversation now. ☆★☆

[Rosie_0801]

There are scarier things going on around here today. Like the bloody weather. We've been glued to the CFA (Country Fire Authority) website and radio channel most of the day.  :mad:

[Negin]

nm

 

 

[Negin]

nm

Edited December 17, 2014 by Susan Wise Bauer
I do not think that the inflammatory links help advance the discussion.

[Word Nerd]

 

 

To put the Sydney siege in perspective, in Pakistan ten students have been killed and 40 injured after being taken hostage by the Taliban.

 

Muslim men, women and children also suffer from terrorism and terrible crimes.

 

Now it's up to 135 dead. :(

[Negin]

nm

Edited December 17, 2014 by Susan Wise Bauer
I do not think that the inflammatory links help advance the discussion.

[ktgrok]

I'm trying to imagine laws against wearing camo. Everyone wears it here. 

 

[umsami]

This one is also brilliant. 

 

So, because you don't want to believe Islamophobia is real, this is brilliant?  OMG, so because they do experience hate crimes (but less often according to this), then it's not real?  Are you for real?

 

Well, I'm a Muslim. Historically, my family came over on the Mayflower. I'm white. I have blue eyes.  My hair is usually a shade of blonde.  Yet, when I wear hijab, I can tell you about all the crap I receive.  I'm told to "go back to where I came from."  I've had people come up to my window at a stoplight and bang on it telling me to take myself and my terrorist b*#)ads and leave town.  I've had a man stop his car at the end of my driveway and insult me and threaten me.

 

Do you think I called up the police and reported a hate crime?

 

Do you think that the Muslims who are not hired for jobs, nor even given an interview, because their name is Khadijah or Muhammad file hate crime reports?

 

Here's another brilliant article.  "Hate crimes against Muslims spike"

 

http://rt.com/op-edge/193572-islamophobia-muslims-hate-crimes-rise/

 

Muslim hate crimes rise 65% in London

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-29424165

 

Here's what the FBI says...which refutes your "Brilliant" article

http://www.splcenter.org/home/2012/spring/fbi-bias-crimes-against-muslims-remain-at-high-levels

 

"Hate crimes against perceived Muslims, which jumped 50% in 2010 largely as a result of anti-Muslim propagandizing, remained at relatively high levels for a second year in 2011, according to the FBI’s new national hate crime statistics.

The bureau reported that there were 157 anti-Muslim hate crimes in 2011, down very slightly from the 160 recorded in 2010. The 2011 crimes occurred during a period when Islam-bashing propaganda, which initially took off in 2010, continued and even intensified.

The actual number of reported anti-Muslim hate crimes is small for a country the size of the United States, but the FBI statistics are known to be notoriously understated, in part because more than half of hate crimes are never reported to police. Two major Department of Justice (DOJ) studies have indicated that the real level of hate crimes in America is some 20 to 30 times higher than the numbers reported over the years by the FBI, which are simply compilations of state statistics. 

If the FBI numbers are taken as only an indicator of larger trends, as seems reasonable given the DOJ studies, the real number of anti-Muslim hate crimes during 2011 may have been somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000."

 

I have lots and lots of opinions, but will not share them all here, since I'm sure I'll get banned/reported/the thread will be locked down/whatever. 

 

 

If your opinions are such that they would get you banned/reported, then you may want to re-examine your opinions and your biases... or at least, please do not pass your hate on to your children.

[hornblower]

 

Finally, please watch before judging. If anyone can teach me how to embed a video, I would greatly appreciate it. :)

 

Hi Negin,

 

to embed a video, when on youtube, get the 'share video' link (not the url from the top, but I think you did that...) and then rather than highlighting text & clicking the linky widget, just paste the link into the body of the post. It will then show up as embedded.

 

I offer you Sam Harris blog post from Oct. It contains a link to a video he did about his most controversial views on Islam.

 

 

Harris very definitely has read the koran & is actually currently working on a book with Maajid Nawaz (also very worth listening to him...He was on w/ Anderson Cooper talking about the Sydney gunman)

 

 

[Negin]

 :)