Joker Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I'm always baffled by other Christians who feel the only thing to do is speak out. What about prayer? Do you not believe in it? If I feel someone or something is wrong, I pray. I don't tell those that I feel are doing wrong how sinful, deviant, etc. I think they are. I pray and have faith that God's will is done. I also love them, am compassionate, and friendly. Words hurt and do damage and to pretend otherwise is being dishonest. I'm not God and I'm not going to start telling others how they are sinning because, again, I'm not God and could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Yes, I think they do. People commit suicide for a myriad of reasons. A young man I know committed suicide because his birth mother rejected him. People commit suicide because of financial stress, losing a loved one, losing a job, etc. Perhaps if people were not "bullied" into having guilt and shame about being gay, there might be less reason to consider suicide. I know people commit suicide for a myriad of reasons, that unfortunate scenario has entered my personal life too. I cannot imagine, however, believing in a God that would whisper shameful and guilt-ridden thoughts to a person struggling with their own sense of sexuality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 In my small home town is a restaurant owned by a man who HATES ( quite vocally) my religion. Oddly enough none of the members of said religion ever eat at his restaurant. But there is no organized protest or official denouncement of his place of business....no FB chain to out him as a hater....we just avoid him. So I just can't imagine trying to FORCE him to serve me if he refused. Even though of course religion is a legally protected group. Now if he was in charge of the water service in town...yeah, we would have to deal with him. But it is a restaurant. We just go elsewhere or go home. That's your right. Personally, I'm glad there are people in the world who fight against crap like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Oh, there is evidence that the cake maker "fears" the couple who asked for a cake? I didn't see that. I merely saw a cake maker who adheres to the definition of marriage in his religion and refuses the business that requires him to up-end that. Baking a cake doesn't change his belief. It doesn't force him to believe differently. Now, presiding over the wedding, yes. Baking a cake that married gay people will eat? No. Not anymore than baking cookies that gay people eat at a birthday party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Yes, I think they do. People commit suicide for a myriad of reasons. A young man I know committed suicide because his birth mother rejected him. People commit suicide because of financial stress, losing a loved one, losing a job, etc. But are they feeling guilt and shame because it is being heaped upon them by others or because they innately know that being gay is shameful? I was repeatedly raped in the church I grew up in. I felt and feel tremendous amounts of guilt and shame about this and have been at the brink of suicide more than once. Are my feelings of guilt and shame a result of me knowing that what happened was shameful or a result of being told I was defiled/tainted, a temptress and a disappointment to God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I come from a conservative religious tradition and I try to treat everyone with respect no matter what. But I also don't worry about whether God approves of anyone else's lifestyle choices. I don't think it's my business. I work out my own relationship with God and I don't think He requires me to worry about anyone else's relationship with him. I think I can stand up for my religion and my beliefs more effectively by treating others kindly than by telling them I (or God) don't approve of their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I am reminded of the lyrics to Casting Crown's Song "Who am I" If you believe the tenets of the lyrics, it is not about who you are or what you've done, it is about who God is. Not because of who I am But because of what You've done.Not because of what I've doneBut because of who You are. I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 I am going to back away from the suicide subtopic. I am fairly mellow and tend to joke (mostly at my own expense) but the topic of suicide among LGBTQ kids is just too close. My brother, while living with me fulltime was suicidal. It was an all encompassing worry for me and my then boyfriend, now husband. It is the things that some religious leaders said to him at the time that ultimately led me out of the church. I don't think that people realize how inadequate love the sinner hate the sin is as a rationalization. Transitioning no doubt saved his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I have found my religion. OK, but remember, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's cake. So back off. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Should churches be able to refuse to perform gay weddings? They act as agents of the state and fill out legal documents are part of religious marriage services. Churches operate under a different system, and always have. Churches can refuse to wed people for all sorts of reasons. Mine won't marry you if you re divorced and not had it annulled, if you haven't done the requisite marriage preparation classes, etc etc. Totally different thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Shutting a business down by means of fining them out of business, or refusing to issue permits, or suing the owner on the basis of discrimination all leads to the same result; penalizing a person on the basis of his religious beliefs, in the case at hand. Not ok, under the First Amendment. I'm not sure why you are bringing up all that unrelated stuff about renting properties. No, it is penalizing them for breaking the law. That is the issue. They can believe whatever they want. They cannot act in a way that is in violation of the law. You can't break the law just because your religion tells you to. No where else is that ok, and it isn't ok here. If it WAS ok here, then it would be ok elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 But are they feeling guilt and shame because it is being heaped upon them by others or because they innately know that being gay is shameful? I was repeatedly raped in the church I grew up in. I felt and feel tremendous amounts of guilt and shame about this and have been at the brink of suicide more than once. Are my feelings of guilt and shame a result of me knowing that what happened was shameful or a result of being told I was defiled/tainted, a temptress and a disappointment to God? :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 What if there was only one kind of cake, wouldn't that be horrible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 What if there was only one kind of cake, wouldn't that be horrible? That would be the saddest thing ever, especially if I were told I had to love the cake and it had something creepy in it like cherry goo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 That would be the saddest thing ever, especially if I were told I had to love the cake and it had something creepy in it like cherry goo. or coconut, I cannot abide being around coconut lovers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 OK, but remember, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's cake. So back off. :glare: But MY scripture says "thou shalt always share the cake!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 That would be the saddest thing ever, especially if I were told I had to love the cake and it had something creepy in it like cherry goo. That would never happen. Cherry goo is in the same category as cherry flavored anything and maraschino cherries- of.the.devil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 or coconut, I cannot abide being around coconut lovers. Coconut in cake is truly an abomination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Just thinking about how the restaurant owner doesn't upset me. If anything we are amused by him. I care not that he hates me. I guess I can't wrap my head around getting so upset if someone didn't want to make a cake for me. but what if NO ONE would make a cake for you, or allow you to use their restaurant, or their gas station, or their grocery store? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 or coconut, I cannot abide being around coconut lovers.I can handle the coconut water lovers and the piña colada crowd. Those eaters of coconut flakes and the candies with coconut centers creep me out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 So, you can refuse service to someone if what they stand for violates your morals? I can reject a *political lobbying group* because they are *not* a protected class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Race is protected everywhere, federally and via state law. It's not similar at all and people have NOT refused to sell wedding cakes. They have refused to sell wedding cakes for an event that does not constitute a wedding, under their religion. If I want to buy a wedding cake to have a tea party for my stuffed animals it is my business. The baker doesn't have the right to determine how his cake will be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in FL. Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 i think guilt comes from within and without. Some of their guilt is because they are going against the law of God written on their hearts. I cannot imagine the horror of what happened to you. I know that it is natural to feel that things that happen to us are our fault. My oldest Ds was rejected by his birth father and felt that it was because of some failing on his part, which was not true. I was made to feel that I was tainted because I was divorced. You should not have to feel any guilt or shame because someone sinned against you in such a disgusting way, and the people who tried to lay the blame at your feet were incredibly wrong to do so. But are they feeling guilt and shame because it is being heaped upon them by others or because they innately know that being gay is shameful? I was repeatedly raped in the church I grew up in. I felt and feel tremendous amounts of guilt and shame about this and have been at the brink of suicide more than once. Are my feelings of guilt and shame a result of me knowing that what happened was shameful or a result of being told I was defiled/tainted, a temptress and a disappointment to God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 But MY scripture says "thou shalt always share the cake!" I'm on my way over. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Utilities are different from goods and services that can be obtained in a variety of places. You are constrained to the utilities that serve your area as they have a monopoly. Not true with cake makers or other goods/services providers. Really? You don't think there are lots of towns with only one or two places that do wedding cakes? Or towns with only one hotel? These places are all over our country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 But MY scripture says "thou shalt always share the cake!" Fine, have a small bite. Okay, take another. Have some more. Here, take the rest of this slice. I'll cut you another one. Coffee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I'm on my way over. :D Are you still in the leopard skin pants? Don't get cake on them, they're not yours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I don't have a clear decision as to whether I would refuse to bake a cake....but I can say there is a big difference in making a public commitment to live a certain way....vs sometimes eating too much. I mean I don't know a lot of people who say hey I am a glutton, I overeat constantly and I have no intention of stopping. It doesn't ahve to be "I have no intention of stopping." I am a glutton. I eat too much. I have a piece of chocolate right next to the computer. I am overweight. I am working on it. But, I do eat more than I should. Which is gluttony. And If I walk into the bakery, and say wow, I was just going to get a loaf of bread for tomorrow, since I just ate a big dinner and I'm full...but giant cupcakes over there look amazing, give me one of those too and I'll find room somehow, and the baker gives me the cupcake, that is endorsing and supporting my gluttony. Much more directly that providing a cake to a gay wedding is. IN the wedding, the cake is not essential. In the gluttony example, the cupcake is how I am sinning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 i think guilt comes from within and without. Some of their guilt is because they are going against the law of God written on their hearts. I cannot imagine the horror of what happened to you. I know that it is natural to feel that things that happen to us are our fault. My oldest Ds was rejected by his birth father and felt that it was because of some failing on his part, which was not true. I was made to feel that I was tainted because I was divorced. You should not have to feel any guilt or shame because someone sinned against you in such a disgusting way, and the people who tried to lay the blame at your feet were incredibly wrong to do so. But for several of them they absolutely believed they had Biblical backing for what they were telling me. They had as many verses to back up their condemnation of me and "my sin" as I see used to condemn the "sin" of homosexuality. If they were wrong for heaping guilt upon me based on their beliefs interpretation of scripture does it not follow that those who do that same thing to same sex individuals are also wrong? If they were wrong because you interpret scripture differently how do we reconcile the fact that scriptural interpretation widely varies across christiandom, including upon matters of sexuality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 But MY scripture says "thou shalt always share the cake!"Oh, are you Church of England? Cake or death? Eta: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I'm sorry guys but my religion says all cakes AND cupcakes must be a rich, dark chocolate with vanilla frosting. Having it be any other way is forcing me to accept something that I refuse to accept!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Sadly, I'm going to have to start a spin-off denomination. I love coconut cake. I love Almond Joy bars. I loved the Nigella episode when she deep fried Bounty bars. One of these days I'm going to try it..... I don't like fruit fillings, but I do love maraschino cherries. It comes from getting Shirley Temples as a kid. (Drink with ginger ale, grenadine, and a maraschino cherry.) I still like a cherry on top of a hot fudge sundae. But we welcome all at the Church of Universal Cake....even the Gulten Free folks. Heck, even those of you who prefer pie over cake. We may not agree with your tastes, but we understand that the Great Baker in the Sky gave everybody different tastes...and that this is good. That would never happen.Cherry goo is in the same category as cherry flavored anything and maraschino cherries- of.the.devil. Coconut in cake is truly an abomination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 i think guilt comes from within and without. Some of their guilt is because they are going against the law of God written on their hearts. THIS. This thinking and perspective kills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Yes! http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/ce/88/d9/ce88d999f1f1d3af0c97e4a304089bd3.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 That's fair trade chocolate, right? Wouldn't want slave cakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Oh, are you Church of England? Cake or death? I thought that was New Hampshire, "eat cake or die". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I'm actually kind of offended I haven't run out of Likes yet. I've been working really hard at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 That's fair trade chocolate, right? Wouldn't want slave cakes. Naturally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I thought that was New Hampshire, "eat cake or die". Sorry, I eta an explanation. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Sadly, I'm going to have to start a spin-off denomination. I love coconut cake. I love Almond Joy bars. I loved the Nigella episode when she deep fried Bounty bars. One of these days I'm going to try it..... I don't like fruit fillings, but I do love maraschino cherries. It comes from getting Shirley Temples as a kid. (Drink with ginger ale, grenadine, and a maraschino cherry.) I still like a cherry on top of a hot fudge sundae. But we welcome all at the Church of Universal Cake....even the Gulten Free folks. Heck, even those of you who prefer pie over cake. We may not agree with your tastes, but we understand that the Great Baker in the Sky gave everybody different tastes...and that this is good. If you take pie eaters, I'm in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I'm sorry guys but my religion says all cakes AND cupcakes must be a rich, dark chocolate with vanilla frosting. Having it be any other way is forcing me to accept something that I refuse to accept!! Heretic! Chocolate cake and CHOCOLATE frosting is the only acceptable pairing. Eating chocolate frosting with a spoon is also allowed, but cake must never be served sans frosting. We are not the monastic order of muffinry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 I have a cousin who was raised by rabidly anti-gay religious people. He was born to my one aunt and then adopted by my other aunt and her husband. They have shamed and admonished him so much. When he went back to his bio mom, she shamed him too. We grew up far apart and only see each other sporadically. Today I saw him and he was nervous about if it would be ok to bring his new boyfriend or not. My SIL and I didn't grasp what the heck the problem was and he didn't realize that we would be ok with his boyfriend being around all of our kids. When I finally realized that he was thinking maybe I would welcome him but not his boyfriend I was like "dude, this is Seattle. Whole different branch of the family tree. I'm am totally down with you bringing anyone you think is worth spending time with." It was such a revelation to him that not everyone in the family shares his mothers' views. At the end of the gathering, which wasn't at my home, I extended the invite for him to come over to our place. I was looking right at him and his boyfriend and said "you guys should come over for dinner sometime." Again, he reflexively asked who was included and I was confused again and he wondered if my husband (who was at work and not there) would be ok with that. Again I had to make explicit what I take for granted. Honestly it breaks my heart to think of what the heck he's been through that in 2014 at the age of 28 he doesn't feel he can assume his boyfriend is allowed to be around his cousin's kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 If you take pie eaters, I'm in. Ohhhh, I can totally be a priestess in a pie religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Sorry, I eta an explanation. ;) I can only forgive you if you offer that apology with a side of sweet chocolate cake. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Heretic! Chocolate cake and CHOCOLATE frosting is the only acceptable pairing. Eating chocolate frosting with a spoon is also allowed, but cake must never be served sans frosting. We are not the monastic order of muffinry. This DOES NOT comply with my religion. So, therefore, it is NOT allowed!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Jay Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Although I would eat vanilla cake with chocolate frosting - just don't tell my religious elders! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 Fine, have a small bite. Okay, take another. Have some more. Here, take the rest of this slice. I'll cut you another one. Coffee? I actually am not a cake person. I share the cake so it doesn't go to waste. I'll bake cakes for you and you make the coffee. I usually make 2 cakes per year. Note that I have 2 kids. I have made more this year because baking is a way to spend time with my niece and because she wanted to make her mom birthday cupcakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Ohhhh, I can totally be a priestess in a pie religion. We cake people can coexist with the pie puritans as long as you consistently support our stance on the divinity of chocolate and the evils of cherry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Exactly! If you are unwilling to bake wedding cakes for certain people, despite the law saying otherwise, than for heaven's sake, don't open a wedding cake business! If you are unwilling to rent rooms to interracial couples (remember, this isn't about their race...it is about their action, marrying each other. A black couple would be allowed, or a white couple, just not an interracial couple..so this isn't an imutable characteristic), then don't open a hotel. There are plenty of religious groups that don't do certain jobs because it interferes with their religion. If that is a sacrifice, oh well, religion often requires sacrifice. There is no consitutional ammendment saying you are entitled to open a bakery, not if you don't want to obey the law. Or that people would put themselves in situations where their religious beliefs would become liabilities. If you value religion or certain aspects of your religion above all else, wouldn't you insulate yourself and craft your life to be as dedicated and uninterrupted as possible? (I'm thinking of the Orthodox Jews I know who have arranged their lives and occupations so that they may follow their religious laws with minimal non-Orthodox interference.) I think religion should be an area of personal responsibility. If you want to practice it, then it's up to you to do that. It's not up to society to make sure you can bounce around doing whatever you like, wherever you like and have your views trump everyone else's. Society requires that everyone works together. The baker needs the farmers and the truckers and...if each one of these people asserted some religious argument against selling or providing goods in the open market to the others, life would grind to a halt. If you value religion over society, then you craft your life thusly. You don't expect society to tailor its expectations to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted December 7, 2014 Author Share Posted December 7, 2014 We cake people can coexist with the pie puritans as long as you consistently support our stance on the divinity of chocolate and the evils of cherry. Have you seen what I look like after pitting cherries for pie? It's like Carrie. Cherries definitely evil. My family's chocolate pie is divine. Looks like our doctrine aligns ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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