Missing Libyan Jets

[DawnM]

I can't quite tell if this is reliable info yet or not, so forgive the source, but I am very concerned about American interests overseas.

 

I wasn't worried in the last thread about "Are you worried about 9/11" but now I am starting to be more concerned!

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/09/02/report-missing-libyan-jetliners-raise-fears-suicide-airliner-attacks-on-11/

 

[JoJosMom]

They went missing some time ago (I believe a month); it's just now being reported widely.  Hopefully, that has given the intelligence agencies of various countries the time to locate them and take steps to minimize the threat.  Hopefully.

 

(BTW, why the apology for the source?  Fox News is incredibly mainstream, despite the far left yammering about "Faux News." The editorial content leans right, but the news material is pretty tame.  And reliable; a good deal of it is AP sourced.)

[DawnM]

I just know some feel Fox is too one sided and can get jumpy about it not being from "their side."

 

I know they have been missing a while, but they are still missing!  

 

 

They went missing some time ago (I believe a month); it's just now being reported widely.  Hopefully, that has given the intelligence agencies of various countries the time to locate them and take steps to minimize the threat.  Hopefully.

 

(BTW, why the apology for the source?  Fox News is incredibly mainstream, despite the far left yammering about "Faux News." The editorial content leans right, but the news material is pretty tame.  And reliable; a good deal of it is AP sourced.)

 

[Georgiana Daniels]

Frightening! It's like waiting for the other shoe....

[trulycrabby]

I have been reading about it and yes, I have concerns.

[mommymilkies]

Perhaps this is not the proper place to complain about the far left "yammering"? This is a diverse site and more than the far left have issues with Fox News. It's always good to check multiple sources about news stories.

 

An updated story here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2741428/Officials-warn-ELEVEN-missing-airplanes-Libya-used-carry-terrorist-attack-9-11-anniversary.html

[DawnM]

No one said anything about far left yammering.  What are you talking about?

 

You have no idea what my political stand is.  MY point was that I didn't want to choose a "side" and therefore I was apologizing that I only had FOX news to report from.

 

 

Perhaps this is not the proper place to complain about the far left "yammering"? This is a diverse site and more than the far left have issues with Fox News. It's always good to check multiple sources about news stories.

An updated story here
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2741428/Officials-warn-ELEVEN-missing-airplanes-Libya-used-carry-terrorist-attack-9-11-anniversary.html

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Perhaps this is not the proper place to complain about the far left "yammering"? This is a diverse site and more than the far left have issues with Fox News. It's always good to check multiple sources about news stories.

 

An updated story here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2741428/Officials-warn-ELEVEN-missing-airplanes-Libya-used-carry-terrorist-attack-9-11-anniversary.html

I am not a Fox fan in the slightest but I am surprised that you linked the Daily Mail as a more reputable alternative.

[JoJosMom]

I just know some feel Fox is too one sided and can get jumpy about it not being from "their side."

 

I know they have been missing a while, but they are still missing!  

 

My point was simply that, although this is just now being reported on, governments and their military/intelligence agencies have most likely been working on the problem "for some time." Sorry that I wasn't clear.

[mommymilkies]

No one said anything about far left yammering.  What are you talking about?

 

You have no idea what my political stand is.  MY point was that I didn't want to choose a "side" and therefore I was apologizing that I only had FOX news to report from.

 

Read below.

They went missing some time ago (I believe a month); it's just now being reported widely.  Hopefully, that has given the intelligence agencies of various countries the time to locate them and take steps to minimize the threat.  Hopefully.

 

(BTW, why the apology for the source?  Fox News is incredibly mainstream, despite the far left yammering about "Faux News." The editorial content leans right, but the news material is pretty tame.  And reliable; a good deal of it is AP sourced.)

[DawnM]

Oh, got it.  Sorry.

 

Read below.

 

[mommymilkies]

I am not a Fox fan in the slightest but I am surprised that you linked the Daily Mail as a more reputable alternative.

I never said they were reputable.  I posted the first link I found when I googled it.  If you type in "Missing Libyan jets" about 100 articles pop up. 

[gardenmom5]

Perhaps this is not the proper place to complain about the far left "yammering"? This is a diverse site and more than the far left have issues with Fox News. It's always good to check multiple sources about news stories.

 

An updated story here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2741428/Officials-warn-ELEVEN-missing-airplanes-Libya-used-carry-terrorist-attack-9-11-anniversary.html

 

I confess to primarily going to UK sites (and rarely bothering with US sites anymore.  I don't even bother with fox - despite the fact they routinely blow the other alphabet networks out of the water with ratings.) - but the daily mail has so much that is tabloid.  I do find it amusing you consider it more reputable.

[mommymilkies]

I confess to primarily going to UK sites (and rarely bothering with US sites anymore.  I don't even bother with fox - despite the fact they routinely blow the other alphabet networks out of the water with ratings.) - but the daily mail has so much that is tabloid.  I do find it amusing you consider it more reputable.

Sigh.  I already said I never claimed it was reputable.  I just linked one other site.  Like I said above, googling will point you to about 100 other articles on it.  I was on my phone, so obviously was not about to post every single one.  Another was on Washington Post which some people find controversial, as well.  

 

So I tried to defuse a potentially bad political discussion about "the left" in as kind a manner as I could pull off via typing and instead people are jumping down my throat.  Great.  Continue your discussion and I'm done. 

[umsami]

I've seen smatterings of this, but in general, I would be far more concerned for say….the US Embassy in Cairo…or things within the Middle East, than any sort of attack on US soil.  If I lived in France or Italy, I'd be far more concerned as well.

 

It is extremely unlikely that one Libyan jet would make it across the Atlantic undetected to attack on US soil.   Even though these are commercial jets, they file flight plans, their flight plans are well known, their tail numbers, etc. are registered.  A jet that has been missing for a month cannot suddenly take off without notice, traverse the ocean undetected, and attack.  Fear mongering, nothing more.

 

 

[Tanaqui]

Yeah, in the vein of "Faux News" many people refer to "The Daily Fail", probably because we're all 15 and very clever*. Most people consider Reuters or the AP to be fairly neutral. They're seriously boring, but generally safe for mixed company.

 

I'm not too worried about these planes for the reasons already mentioned. They're not a non-concern, exactly, but they're ranked somewhere below "Ebola spreading to New York", though they do happen to be above "Yellowstone erupting and covering all of North America with ash". Those things can happen too, they just probably won't.

 

* I may or may not be one of those people. I ADMIT NOTHING.

 

[unsinkable]

I've seen smatterings of this, but in general, I would be far more concerned for say….the US Embassy in Cairo…or things within the Middle East, than any sort of attack on US soil. If I lived in France or Italy, I'd be far more concerned as well.

 

It is extremely unlikely that one Libyan jet would make it across the Atlantic undetected to attack on US soil. Even though these are commercial jets, they file flight plans, their flight plans are well known, their tail numbers, etc. are registered. A jet that has been missing for a month cannot suddenly take off without notice, traverse the ocean undetected, and attack. Fear mongering, nothing more.

Well, Dawn's post did say American interests *overseas* so I didn't get the impression that she or others in this thread thought someone could fly a plane from Libya to the US mainland undetected.

[umsami]

Well, Dawn's post did say American interests *overseas* so I didn't get the impression that she or others in this thread thought someone could fly a plane from Libya to the US mainland undetected.

 

My mistake. I read it as North America, not North Africa.  

[gardenmom5]

I've seen smatterings of this, but in general, I would be far more concerned for say….the US Embassy in Cairo…or things within the Middle East, than any sort of attack on US soil.  If I lived in France or Italy, I'd be far more concerned as well.

 

It is extremely unlikely that one Libyan jet would make it across the Atlantic undetected to attack on US soil.   Even though these are commercial jets, they file flight plans, their flight plans are well known, their tail numbers, etc. are registered.  A jet that has been missing for a month cannot suddenly take off without notice, traverse the ocean undetected, and attack.  Fear mongering, nothing more.

the concerns I've seen expressed are all about attacks within a reasonable distance of tripoli - nothing on US soil. 

 

re: saudi oil fields,

north africa

europe, etc.

(israel?)

 

oh - and the "last month", well, august was last week.  (which is when this group took complete control of the airport)  so it hasn't been all that long.

[umsami]

the concerns I've seen expressed are all about attacks within a reasonable distance of tripoli - nothing on US soil. 

 

re: saudi oil fields,

north africa

europe, etc.

(israel?)

 

oh - and the "last month", well, august was last week.  (which is when this group took complete control of the airport)  so it hasn't been all that long.

 

Yes, I admitted that I misread her first post.   So here's my non-professional opinion…..

 

Honestly, Israel has excellent defenses. I'm not worried about them at all.

 

Europe in general, very good defense systems.

 

I think the most likely target would be within Libya itself…or perhaps next door in Egypt.  Egypt has been under a lot of turmoil, and honestly I have no idea how good their defense system is…even though they get everything from us (or have in the past).

 

Saudi….well…I guess I just don't see an unknown airliner making it that far without being detected.  The Europeans and Israel all monitor the Mediterranean.  I would suspect it would be caught long before it got anywhere near Saudi….and the Israelis, Egyptians, or even Saudi air force would take care of it.  As a commercial jet liner, it is defenseless.  

[DawnM]

I thought this source mentioned it, but maybe it was another source.  The targets, they believe, are American Interests in West and North Africa.

 

 

Yes, I admitted that I misread her first post.   So here's my non-professional opinion…..

 

Honestly, Israel has excellent defenses. I'm not worried about them at all.

 

Europe in general, very good defense systems.

 

I think the most likely target would be within Libya itself…or perhaps next door in Egypt.  Egypt has been under a lot of turmoil, and honestly I have no idea how good their defense system is…even though they get everything from us (or have in the past).

 

Saudi….well…I guess I just don't see an unknown airliner making it that far without being detected.  The Europeans and Israel all monitor the Mediterranean.  I would suspect it would be caught long before it got anywhere near Saudi….and the Israelis, Egyptians, or even Saudi air force would take care of it.  As a commercial jet liner, it is defenseless.  

 

[Jennifer3141]

Isn't Fox News partially owned by a Muslim Saudi prince? Now what benefit could he receive from that?

[stripe]

Isn't Fox News partially owned by a Muslim Saudi prince? Now what benefit could he receive from that?

Financial? He's got tons of money and many investments.

 

(He gave half a million dollars to a GHWBush scholarship at Phillips Academy, too.)

[gardenmom5]

 

Saudi….well…I guess I just don't see an unknown airliner making it that far without being detected.  The Europeans and Israel all monitor the Mediterranean.  I would suspect it would be caught long before it got anywhere near Saudi….and the Israelis, Egyptians, or even Saudi air force would take care of it.  As a commercial jet liner, it is defenseless.  

 

the reports are for how well the oil fields are lit up at night.  Saudi defenses would only have 90 SECONDS to decide/and shoot down a plane once it has left international airspace to prevent one crashing into the fields.  difficult, but not impossible - for either side.

[umsami]

the reports are for how well the oil fields are lit up at night.  Saudi defenses would only have 90 SECONDS to decide/and shoot down a plane once it has left international airspace to prevent one crashing into the fields.  difficult, but not impossible - for either side.

 

But it has to get there first.  Libya to Saudi Arabia…so they could go over Egypt…and then the Red Sea….or take the Mediterranean….and go over Sinai (Egypt still) and into Saudi…or through Israel and Jordan into Saudi…. it would be detected long before it ever made it to Saudi air space.  There are set routes for traveling into Riyadh or Jeddah or wherever….the air traffic controllers in other countries would see it as well.  I guess I'm just not that worried.  

These are commercial airplanes from what I read.  They're not that fast…and they're not that easy to hide/maneuver.  

 

I'm not worried.  Perhaps I'm naive, but I'm just not putting on the tinfoil hijab quite yet.

[unsinkable]

But it has to get there first. Libya to Saudi Arabia…so they could go over Egypt…and then the Red Sea….or take the Mediterranean….and go over Sinai (Egypt still) and into Saudi…or through Israel and Jordan into Saudi…. it would be detected long before it ever made it to Saudi air space. There are set routes for traveling into Riyadh or Jeddah or wherever….the air traffic controllers in other countries would see it as well. I guess I'm just not that worried.

These are commercial airplanes from what I read. They're not that fast…and they're not that easy to hide/maneuver.

 

I'm not worried. Perhaps I'm naive, but I'm just not putting on the tinfoil hijab quite yet.

Unless those whose job it is to detect the planes look the other way, and let the planes fly on through...

[Caroline]

Unless those whose job it is to detect the planes look the other way, and let the planes fly on through...

 

I suppose that is possible. However, that would be a lot of people in just the right places involved in the conspiracy. 

[*Lulu*]

I suppose that is possible. However, that would be a lot of people in just the right places involved in the conspiracy.

Very true.

 

DH was watching a documentary about 9/11 truthers this past week. One of the things repeatedly pointed out was when you have many people in on a conspiracy it dramatically lowers the chance of the conspiracy's success.

[unsinkable]

I don't know...it's an hour or so flight time from northern Libya to southern Italy and Sicily.

 

How many air traffic controllers would they need to look the other way for an hour? 2? 4? 1? The one could immobilize anyone s/he works with until the flight gets through.

[gardenmom5]

turning off the plane's ID - means it won't show up as anything but a blip. (amongst a sea of identified blips.)  there are a lot of things that show up as "blips" on radar.  (flocks of birds have been known to freak out inexperienced operators because the blip can be enormous.) flying low enough again means it's harder to detect on radar. (that requires a more skilled pilot.) 

depending upon how busy the airspace would affect how fast it would be detected - and only as an unidentified craft.  then there would be time spent trying to contact the plane, then determining what to do with it depending upon contact.  that can eat up a lot of distance. (how much depends upon airspeed.)

incidentally - none of the above requires a conspiracy.  just busy airspace and busy controllers.

any one else who picked it up, would still have to act upon it.  we'll see.  yes they have desire (and have posted how they want to kill westerners) - but that doesn't mean they have the ability.

[umsami]

I don't see Italy viewed as a meddling European country like we are…or maybe the UK may be viewed.  Yes, they're Western….but I don't see them being as much of a target.  Of course, I could be wrong.  

 

I guess I think the rebels or terrorists or whomever have a lot more on their plate at home to deal with.

 

Also, remember Libya itself has its own oil fields, and they're at some of their peak production in quite awhile.  Much easier to target them.  

 

Why make it difficult on themselves?  Why not go for an easier target?

 

 

[unsinkable]

I hope nothing happens besides peace.

 

You'd think that'd be the easiest, right? :-(

[VeritasMama]

I don't see Italy viewed as a meddling European country like we are…or maybe the UK may be viewed. Yes, they're Western….but I don't see them being as much of a target. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

I guess I think the rebels or terrorists or whomever have a lot more on their plate at home to deal with.

 

Also, remember Libya itself has its own oil fields, and they're at some of their peak production in quite awhile. Much easier to target them.

 

Why make it difficult on themselves? Why not go for an easier target?

Italy has increased security because of threats Isis has made to the Pope and the Vatican. I have read about this on American blogs that cover Italian newspapers, this CNN blog is the only thing I could find on it from an English language source.

 

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/29/italian-paper-isis-targeting-pope-francis/

 

ETA: okay, this article actually mentions the video where a leader of ISIS talks about destroying Rome. It might not be a credible threat, but Italy still has to take it seriously:

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/iraq-isis-ramadan-message-we-will-conquer-christian-rome-1454924

[stripe]

Italy is unabashedly racist at times and includes a fair amount of anti-immigant rhetoric.

[Word Nerd]

Very true.

 

DH was watching a documentary about 9/11 truthers this past week. One of the things repeatedly pointed out was when you have many people in on a conspiracy it dramatically lowers the chance of the conspiracy's success.

 

 

Truthers and conspiracy theorists must think the powers that be are much more intelligent and capable of pulling off a grand-scale plot without a hitch than I do. Which is easier to believe: that careless journalists share incorrect information without first verifying its accuracy in order to have a breaking or exclusive story—or that when news media updates or corrects information they reported on earlier it's evidence of a "false flag"?

[*Lulu*]

Truthers and conspiracy theorists must think the powers that be are much more intelligent and capable of pulling off a grand-scale plot without a hitch than I do. Which is easier to believe: that careless journalists share incorrect information without first verifying its accuracy in order to have a breaking or exclusive story—or that when news media updates or corrects information they reported on earlier it's evidence of a "false flag"?

My DH worked for more than a decade in the news industry- I've got zero problem with believing the news isn't always accurate! :P

 

To me it seems, "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.", fits very well in these sort of situations.