CM Spread a Feast & Multum non Multa

[Seeker of Schole]

How are those two ideas reconciled? Much, not many (deep, not wide) vs. spreading a feast of information. Is it possible?

 

I believe, based on much reading and discussion with others, that many of Charlotte Mason's ideas are part of a Classical Education, but the two ideas above seem to contradict each other.

[maize]

CM sample schedules tend to include many subjects to be studied in short lessons, so not really multum non multa. I do think it is possible to have both simple and deep and a feast, by differentiating between subjects studied formally and subjects explored for pleasure. In other words, multum non multa is for formal studies, but when those are done for the day there is still a feast to be enjoyed at will.

[Mrs. A]

I don't think the two ideas are at odds. I think that by spreading the feast that CM speaks of, one can more easily help a child to build connections and begin to see the underlying themes. Those themes (perhaps Truths would be a better word) would be the things to dig deep into. CM's idea is more to have the options available and to let the child interact with them as he is willing/able/ready. 

 

 

[birchbark]

I'm with you! The short lessons and broad breadth are a couple CM concepts that I have walked away from. Unless you do as Maize suggested, where the feast is spread for free time.

[Tress]

CM sample schedules tend to include many subjects to be studied in short lessons, so not really multum non multa. I do think it is possible to have both simple and deep and a feast, by differentiating between subjects studied formally and subjects explored for pleasure. In other words, multum non multa is for formal studies, but when those are done for the day there is still a feast to be enjoyed at will.

 

This (bolded).

 

[Hunter]

CM cannot be multum non multa for ME. Not by the currently evolving definition, or even the older one.

 

I can create a multum non multa curriculum using some of the CM methods and booklists, especially the methods that were focused on before AO declared CM as a subset of classical and The Living Page was written. But, if I just follow the currently evolving practices of the crowd–no way, no how!

 

CM was not that revolutionary in her time! Much of what she wrote and did was being done by others, sometimes even the majority, and not just a tiny minority. Her audience was of a higher income bracket than the audience of some of the other teacher training manuals, and really that is the thing that most stands out to ME.

 

I was born into a society like CM's intended audience, but did not grow up in it. I cannot unschool the endless list of extras, and as the advice to document everything increases, fewer and fewer other people will be able to unschool all that paperwork that is now required to give a "real" CM education. It's hard to unschool what is not part of your life and has not been modeled for you, and it's even harder to document all that.

 

CM's advice to mothers of preschoolers is very different than her advice to trained TEACHERS in SCHOOLS, where children have been divided into forms. In the past the homeschooling community adapted the preschool advice upwards. Now the advice to teachers in schools is what is being advised and discussed. If we take that advice literally, we are creating school at home, and a school where it is anything but multum non multa.

 

We are often attracted to curricula that focus on areas we are WEAK in, hoping we can learn along side the student. If we give in to that urge, we are not able to unschool, and we don't teach from an area of strengths.

[73349]

I think they can overlap.

 

When I think of a feast, it is first of all good things. Five kinds of pizza and four bags of chips is not a feast. You cannot really feast on junk.

 

Secondly, if you are hungry, you are not seeking something contrived and deliberately unusual, as in a gourmet restaurant. Something simple is a feast if it is nourishing and abundant. One of the best meals I've ever had was homemade chicken soup and homemade bread. It had several ingredients but was nonetheless simple. Even Thanksgiving does not need to be a seven-course meal, and indeed such a meal (multa) could be sickening rather than nourishing.

[Mandy in TN]

Ok, I'll play. I don't understand why anyone would want to limit a child's exposure, and, frankly, unless you rope off sections of the library, refuse to allow Internet access, and don't take them anywhere, I don't know how you would do it. Conversely, I don't know how, after a child is exposed to things, you keep from delving deeply into them.

 

As far as CM specifically, my entire homeschool philosophy is derived directly from CM. The thing is that, for me, CM, isn't just a way to educate a child, it is about the whole child. To reduce CM to an educational feast and compare it to a simplified Classical education schedule doesn't work for me, because CM is about so much more than that. Here is the current (I update from time to time) my homeschool philosophy:

 

I want my child to be firm in his knowledge of appropriate conduct. I want him to learn the difference between what he wants to do right now and having a strong enough will to do what is appropriate/ right. He must also be taught to be careful not to rationalize something to be right simply because he wants it to be so. Along these lines, there can be no true happiness without first taking care of responsibilities. “…the chief responsibility which rests on them as persons is the acceptance or rejection of ideas. To help them in this choice we give them principles of conduct, and a wide range of the knowledge fitted to them.â€

 

"I am, I can, I ought, I will." is the place from which I instruct, because we achieve through diligence not through intelligence or imagination. I use habit training as a road to success, because I want him to be a responsible, decent, moral person who possesses positive and productive physical and mental habits. I want him to learn to apply these habits to whatever he chooses to do in life whether that is a tinker, a tailor, a soldier, or a sailor.

 

I exercise habit training alongside the idea that “perhaps the business of teachers is to open as many doors as possible.†I respect that he is born whole and that his mind is naturally designed to learn. I can provide the nourishment of education for his mind to grow healthy through a learning lifestyle where he is trained to be disciplined not in subject matter but in life for "education is an atmosphere, a discipline, a life."

 

However, my child is not a blank slate, but is a whole person complete with his own personality and capacity for good and evil. Neither my self worth nor his hinges upon what college he attends or whether or not he goes to college. (I say this, in part, because so many homeschool families decide that the success of their homeschool, the benchmark for their success as home educators and a parents, is determined based on if and where their child attends college. Alongside reducing their child to a product, this view has dire implications for their relationship with their child. They have placed the burden of a positive adult relationship with their child solely on a particular academic achievement whose attainment is not possible for all children and/ or may seem less desirable to the child due to the parents' relentless pressure.) I will for my part try to open doors and windows and widen chinks in the walls, but ultimately he will choose his own path. I hope that he chooses one that is fulfilling.

 

-quotes from Charlotte Mason

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Hunter]

I think within another year or so, we are going to have such diverse definitions of what a CM education is, that it'll be crazier than the definition of "classical". And I think some of the key players in the CM community are going to be…well, :lol: not handle it the same way as some of the key players in the classical community. Let the fun begin!

 

I think it's going to be like the reformation. Let's just hope no one gets burned at the stake. 

[Mandy in TN]

I think authors like to take things to an extreme to prove their point. In reality, are you really going to tell your 6yo that he/ she can't study dinosaurs, because (multum non multa) it isn't on the short schedule, so you can do it in your free time, but I won't help you? Conversely, are you going to make fossil studies part of your CM feast, but then cut him/ her off after 15min? Theory and practice are two different things and authors talking about their method must speak of a theoretical child living only their method. It would be unusual for a real child in a homeschool situation to live a theory and only the theory. ;)

HTH-

Mandy

[Seeker of Schole]

CM sample schedules tend to include many subjects to be studied in short lessons, so not really multum non multa. I do think it is possible to have both simple and deep and a feast, by differentiating between subjects studied formally and subjects explored for pleasure. In other words, multum non multa is for formal studies, but when those are done for the day there is still a feast to be enjoyed at will.

 

Perhaps I should have clarified. I referring to CM as a methodology. Many people spend a lot of time looking at PNEU schedules, and booklists and such, but for this discussion I think it would be good to set that aside and look at methods.

 

 

I can create a multum non multa curriculum using some of the CM methods and booklists, especially the methods that were focused on before AO declared CM as a subset of classical and The Living Page was written. But, if I just follow the currently evolving practices of the crowd–no way, no how!

 

CM was not that revolutionary in her time! Much of what she wrote and did was being done by others, sometimes even the majority, and not just a tiny minority. Her audience was of a higher income bracket than the audience of some of the other teacher training manuals, and really that is the thing that most stands out to ME.

 

The above quote struck me, as I did not realize AO had declared CM a subset of classical. I came about it a different way. I think we can encounter the same danger with CM as we can with many other methods. Some of what she did is so well documented, including schedules, that we can end up doing school at home if we follow them, just a different kind of school. I don't think that would be the schole I am looking for, at all. But I do feel that there are some components that may help lead me towards what I am looking for.

 

 

Ok, I'll play. I don't understand why anyone would want to limit a child's exposure, and, frankly, unless you rope off sections of the library, refuse to allow Internet access, and don't take them anywhere, I don't know how you would do it. Conversely, I don't know how, after a child is exposed to things, you keep from delving deeply into them.

 

As far as CM specifically, my entire homeschool philosophy is derived directly from CM. The thing is that, for me, CM, isn't just a way to educate a child, it is about the whole child. To reduce CM to an educational feast and compare it to a simplified Classical education schedule doesn't work for me, because CM is about so much more than that.

 

Thank you for your input. I also do not believe in limiting a child's exposure. I feel that in a classical education, the grammar stage is about gaining knowledge, and is not related to a specific developmental period. I find myself struggling to reconcile specific ideas, the above is a prime example. I believe that it is possible to spend so much time doing so many things that you teach a child to do many things with mediocrity, and that is not what I want in our home, thus the need for depth. On the other hand, there is SO MUCH to learn about. So it's the balance that I'm trying to figure out. This may not even make sense to anyone else, I'm having a hard time putting this into writing, and of course there is no one in real life to talk this out with. Sigh.

 

 

I think within another year or so, we are going to have such diverse definitions of what a CM education is, that it'll be crazier than the definition of "classical". And I think some of the key players in the CM community are going to be…well, :lol: not handle it the same way as some of the key players in the classical community. Let the fun begin!

 

I think it's going to be like the reformation. Let's just hope no one gets burned at the stake. 

 

Laughing here. I'm not sure how diverse the definition can be, as we have a wealth of resources on her methods to pull from. I do think that anyone who feels that CM is one specific booklist will struggle with the blurring of the lines.

[Mandy in TN]

As you can see from my homeschool philosophy, the things that I took way from CM have absolutely nothing to do with curriculum or schedules. CM wrote some things about children that are very well aligned with how I think about my own kids. I like to read those things and try to hold them in mind when I am choosing how I treat them, raise them, long-term goals that include but are not limited to education, and (as a small slice of the pie) what curriculum I choose and how I use it.

 

The thing about reading someone's method or a person's interpretation of someone else's method is that you have to take what will work for you and your child and use it. There is nothing in dealing with your own child in your own home that needs to be a slave to someone else's ideal theory of what they think it should ideally look like. Take what you can use and ditch the rest.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[ElizaG]

I think authors like to take things to an extreme to prove their point. In reality, are you really going to tell your 6yo that he/ she can't study dinosaurs, because (multum non multa) it isn't on the short schedule, so you can do it in your free time, but I won't help you?

Yes, in reality, I will do the bolded, and do it very often.   Sometimes as a matter of principle, and sometimes just because I have a lot of other things to do.  

 

But just because I'm not going to teach my children about dinosaurs right now, it doesn't follow that they "can't study dinosaurs."  The children aren't helpless, and we have a good selection of books and encyclopedias, including several with information on that subject.  They just have to use some initiative and take them off the shelf.   It helps if they can read, but if not, they can look at the pictures and copy them, or make models out of cardboard, or whatever other plan they come up with.    

 

To give an example, my children are currently obsessed with the Panama Canal and the locks.  The little ones are poring over all the relevant books they can find, and my 10 year old is drawing detailed pictures and diagrams.  Don't ask me why.  We haven't even been reading about it, or anything related to it.   :confused1:  They were delighted when I suggested we look at some pictures of the locks online.  It was a special treat, because I don't usually do stuff like that (again, for pedagogical reasons, as well as just being busy).   But they would have continued their research even without my help, because they haven't been trained to expect it as a routine thing.  Nor do they expect to have access to the Internet or public library.

 

We aren't CM at all, though.  The impression I get from books and blogs is that, if CM-educated children do this sort of thing, it's in spite of the method, not because of it.   By contrast, some other methods (Montessori, Robinson, Ella Frances Lynch) are designed to create independent learners, from an early age.   

 

This isn't the same as "multum non multa," but I do think that the approaches that favor independent learning are more compatible with that philosophy.   If the child is expecting mom or teacher to help them with everything, and she's only teaching a few core subjects, then they're going to be really limited.  

[Mandy in TN]

As I said, unless you refuse access to information, because it isn't on the schedule, I don't see how you can keep from having a feast and once there, short of refusing to let them continue, short lessons only so put that away, I don't know how you keep them from going deep.

 

CM definitely encouraged masterly inactivity and that mothers practice a good deal of letting alone. The children in her schools definitely spent time in the evenings researching, writing papers, and presenting to their peers.

 

Anyway, parents should use discretion and take what works in their home. It doesn't need to to be all one way or another. That's part of the benefit of homeschooling. :)

Mandy

[Mandy in TN]

How are those two ideas reconciled? Much, not many (deep, not wide) vs. spreading a feast of information. Is it possible?

 

I believe, based on much reading and discussion with others, that many of Charlotte Mason's ideas are part of a Classical Education, but the two ideas above seem to contradict each other.

If you wanted, could you breakdown what you wanted to do into a few topics and then schedule components of those in short lessons thus leaving your afternoons free for self-directed learning? Would that be in keeping with both based on your understanding?

 

As we have talked, just a thought-

Mandy

[Kfamily]

I believe that it is possible to spend so much time doing so many things that you teach a child to do many things with mediocrity, and that is not what I want in our home, thus the need for depth.

 

I'm not sure if you are directing this comment towards CM methods in particular or if you just mean this a general way. I would agree with this, in general, but not towards CM methods specifically. We too are definitely seeking and finding depth with our studies. CM methods all come together if all are applied correctly. For example, building a skill such as attention to detail is one that I consider a shared skill with classical. In CM, this attention to detail is covered in one readings followed by a narration, dictation, copywork, nature study and picture study. You could spend the entire morning working on this skill and not even realize that this is what you are doing. In a classical method, you might cover this skill in math, Latin and grammar and you know this because this is the more conventional way of seeing the skill of attention to detail being exercised. But, don't forget that CM also expected her students to become very proficient in Latin (Year 5 and on upwards) and are reading works such as the Aeneid by Year 8 or 9. And while others feel her focus on math is lacking, I would certainly think that in this modern time we would alter that aspect and, of course, study math intensely. While many show CM as not teaching grammar until Year 4, like math, I just don't see why we can't teach it when it seems appropriate for your family. At first appearance, covering so many different areas may seem unconnected, they are actually all very connected. Training your student to listen well enough to know the main ideas in one reading, and well enough to then narrate it works on attention to detail. It doesn't matter which book you are using to achieve this, it is the method that is fundamental. (Naturally, a living book is desirable because this means that it is a book from which beauty, truth and/or goodness can be derived.) Dictation requires the student to first study a section of material (depending on their level in studied dictation) and then must produce an unknown selection of that material as perfectly as possible. This requires attention to detail. I can go through each one and show how this trains this skill. Your dictation, ideally, comes straight from the books from which you are studying already. You can shorten the number of CM books and subjects used and rearrange the schedule and still achieve the same outcome as long as your methods are the same.

 

 

And like Mandy, I really get frustrated with the throwing around of phrases like "spreading a feast" to represent a method which is far more complex than these three words. Whenever we try to simply these methods, we tend to make a mess of them. Obviously we all know, since we are heavily invested in this as homeschoolers, that teaching children is a far more complex task then is given credit. We know this, but I think in the haste of busy life, the stress of being stretched too thin and the need to make life as simple as possible, we forget how much more there is to something like a teaching method than first appears. The methods of CM, just as the methods of classical, are not as simple as read a lot of old books, short lessons, narrations, picture study, nature study and some copywork. You can take any one of these words or phrases and know that there is more to this than just that word. And just so that these words are not taken out of context, I'm saying all of this in a very relaxed and gentle manner. :) Really, I don't intend for this to offend anyone.

 

To be fair, in some aspects I would agree that the ability to be multum non multa using CM methods in its most conventional approach may not be possible. But, I do think that you can apply the methods and still maintain a sense of less is more. We strive for a mixture of methods. I try to incorporate any idea or method that resonates with me and my family. Our ultimate goal as a family is to immerse ourselves in any form of learning that stretches us, soothes us and inspires us.

[Chelli]

CM is a HUGE influence on our homeschool. In fact, I would call myself a CM homeschooler.

I "spread the feast" during our Morning Meeting time where we cover quite a few subjects without the depth that multum non multa would require, but we discuss them quite a bit.

We go deep in the afternoons when we study content subjects. Unlike CM, who had her students covering science, world history, national history, geography, etc. every week, I choose to focus on one of these topics for a week in the afternoon so we can really dig into the topic, make connections, etc. This is the multum non multa part of our day. We won't cover as much history, science, etc. in a year as other homeschoolers, but what we do cover will be thorough. At least I hope it plays out this way!

What I've tried to do for the past three months in our homeschool is combine CM, CiRCE (classical, multum non multa), and interest led learning into one big soup. So far it's worked great, but we've not been at it very long since we had to stop homeschooling for a bit to move. We should pick up next month.

[Seeker of Schole]

We aren't CM at all, though.  The impression I get from books and blogs is that, if CM-educated children do this sort of thing, it's in spite of the method, not because of it.   By contrast, some other methods (Montessori, Robinson, Ella Frances Lynch) are designed to create independent learners, from an early age.   

 

This isn't the same as "multum non multa," but I do think that the approaches that favor independent learning are more compatible with that philosophy.   If the child is expecting mom or teacher to help them with everything, and she's only teaching a few core subjects, then they're going to be really limited.  

 

One of my favorite CM quotes is "Self-education is the only possible education; the rest is mere veneer laid on the surface of a child's nature."

 

 

If you wanted, could you breakdown what you wanted to do into a few topics and then schedule components of those in short lessons thus leaving your afternoons free for self-directed learning? Would that be in keeping with both based on your understanding?

 

As we have talked, just a thought-

Mandy

 

I've contemplated that.

 

 

I'm not sure if you are directing this comment towards CM methods in particular or if you just mean this a general way.

 

And like Mandy, I really get frustrated with the throwing around of phrases like "spreading a feast" to represent a method which is far more complex than these three words. Whenever we try to simply these methods, we tend to make a mess of them. Obviously we all know, since we are heavily invested in this as homeschoolers, that teaching children is a far more complex task then is given credit. We know this, but I think in the haste of busy life, the stress of being stretched too thin and the need to make life as simple as possible, we forget how much more there is to something like a teaching method than first appears. The methods of CM, just as the methods of classical, are not as simple as read a lot of old books, short lessons, narrations, picture study, nature study and some copywork. You can take any one of these words or phrases and know that there is more to this than just that word. And just so that these words are not taken out of context, I'm saying all of this in a very relaxed and gentle manner. :) Really, I don't intend for this to offend anyone.

 

To be fair, in some aspects I would agree that the ability to be multum non multa using CM methods in its most conventional approach may not be possible. But, I do think that you can apply the methods and still maintain a sense of less is more. We strive for a mixture of methods. I try to incorporate any idea or method that resonates with me and my family. Our ultimate goal as a family is to immerse ourselves in any form of learning that stretches us, soothes us and inspires us.

 

I have no intention of using "spread a feast" to represent the whole of CM. I'm just working through different readings and trains of thought and trying to reconcile some differences. Ideally, for us, we would find a way to blend the two, and I'm struggling with that. I believe in some things there needs to be depth, I also feel I would like exposure to a broad knowledge base so that the choices for self-education and future studies are there. I'm struggling to figure out how to do this in a way that does not mean we are schooling for way too long, as I believe free play is important as well.

 

 

CM is a HUGE influence on our homeschool. In fact, I would call myself a CM homeschooler.

 

I "spread the feast" during our Morning Meeting time where we cover quite a few subjects without the depth that multum non multa would require, but we discuss them quite a bit.

 

We go deep in the afternoons when we study content subjects. Unlike CM, who had her students covering science, world history, national history, geography, etc. every week, I choose to focus on one of these topics for a week in the afternoon so we can really dig into the topic, make connections, etc. This is the multum non multa part of our day. We won't cover as much history, science, etc. in a year as other homeschoolers, but what we do cover will be thorough. At least I hope it plays out this way!

 

What I've tried to do for the past three months in our homeschool is combine CM, CiRCE (classical, multum non multa), and interest led learning into one big soup. So far it's worked great, but we've not been at it very long since we had to stop homeschooling for a bit to move. We should pick up next month.

 

Thank you for a glimpse into your day. That is helpful.

[TheAutumnOak]

Yes, in reality, I will do the bolded, and do it very often.   Sometimes as a matter of principle, and sometimes just because I have a lot of other things to do.  

 

But just because I'm not going to teach my children about dinosaurs right now, it doesn't follow that they "can't study dinosaurs."  The children aren't helpless, and we have a good selection of books and encyclopedias, including several with information on that subject.  They just have to use some initiative and take them off the shelf.   It helps if they can read, but if not, they can look at the pictures and copy them, or make models out of cardboard, or whatever other plan they come up with.    

 

To give an example, my children are currently obsessed with the Panama Canal and the locks.  The little ones are poring over all the relevant books they can find, and my 10 year old is drawing detailed pictures and diagrams.  Don't ask me why.  We haven't even been reading about it, or anything related to it.   :confused1:  They were delighted when I suggested we look at some pictures of the locks online.  It was a special treat, because I don't usually do stuff like that (again, for pedagogical reasons, as well as just being busy).   But they would have continued their research even without my help, because they haven't been trained to expect it as a routine thing.  Nor do they expect to have access to the Internet or public library.

 

We aren't CM at all, though.  The impression I get from books and blogs is that, if CM-educated children do this sort of thing, it's in spite of the method, not because of it.   By contrast, some other methods (Montessori, Robinson, Ella Frances Lynch) are designed to create independent learners, from an early age.   

 

This isn't the same as "multum non multa," but I do think that the approaches that favor independent learning are more compatible with that philosophy.   If the child is expecting mom or teacher to help them with everything, and she's only teaching a few core subjects, then they're going to be really limited.  

 

:iagree: It is this way in my house as well...My youngest son loves dinosaurs and wanted to learn more about them...My middle son loves orcas and wanted to learn more about them...I bought them a few books and checked some out of the library, and they read them on their own, looked at the pictures, made drawings of them, etc...They have time to explore these things, but it does not change what I plan to teach them...

 

I know a lot of people change their educational plans based on their children's interests, but I do not...There is plenty of time for the boys to explore their own interests, and they have taken many "rabbit trails" based on their school work, but I don't change the plans to fit their interests...If you know me, you know that I don't mean that in a stuffy kind of way, I am just more of a parent led educator and not much of a child led one...Nothing wrong with child led if it works for you or you feel inclined to it, I just don't feel inclined to it ;)

 

[Mandy in TN]

:iagree: It is this way in my house as well...My youngest son loves dinosaurs and wanted to learn more about them...My middle son loves orcas and wanted to learn more about them...I bought them a few books and checked some out of the library, and they read them on their own, looked at the pictures, made drawings of them, etc...They have time to explore these things, but it does not change what I plan to teach them...

 

I know a lot of people change their educational plans based on their children's interests, but I do not...There is plenty of time for the boys to explore their own interests, and they have taken many "rabbit trails" based on their school work, but I don't change the plans to fit their interests...If you know me, you know that I don't mean that in a stuffy kind of way, I am just more of a parent led educator and not much of a child led one...Nothing wrong with child led if it works for you or you feel inclined to it, I just don't feel inclined to it ;)

 

But- you bought the materials, allowed the time to pursue the interest, and stayed out of the way. ;) That is definitely in keeping with CM.

Mandy

[Hunter]

I think I should have phrased the part about AO being a subset of classical a little looser. I'm not exactly sure what has been exactly said by exactly whom. But there is a new push to call AO a subset of classical and I'm not sure where that started and who is endorsing it fully or partially.

 

In the old days classical and CM were different methods. People were told they needed to choose or be eclectic. Now people are saying purist CM and AO and some other types of CM are classical.

 

I thought the divisions in classical were funny, but what is evolving within CM right now is getting…funny is NOT the word I want to use.

 

I got online fairly late, so I wasn't there to see "classical" initially defined, and maybe it was defined before the internet. But what I see starting…it's…well, it's what it is.

[Hunter]

Laughing here. I'm not sure how diverse the definition can be, as we have a wealth of resources on her methods to pull from. I do think that anyone who feels that CM is one specific booklist will struggle with the blurring of the lines.

 

This sounds an awful lot like what people say about the Bible. :lol: Yes, there are a lot of documents people are studying and "discovering" and they talk about them just like they are scripture. We just don't "discover" things about classical, like we do about CM, do we? At least not with the fervency?

 

I think having more documents actually brings more division, not less. No one has time to read them all, to figure out the big picture.

 

And CM was not a prophet. I don't really want to devote so much time to figuring out what she thought. Are we going to have degrees in CM now? It surely doesn't seem worth it.

 

Man, it just seems like this is gearing up for something we have never yet seen in the homeschooling world. There are people who have been lecturing for over 2 decades and supporting their families from those lectures that are now being "proved" "wrong" with documents. Sometimes money is involved here.

 

And we've got some Christian vs non-Christian stuff thrown in there, too. 

 

And relaxed vs classical.

 

And I don't even know what else.

 

:lurk5:  Someone pass the popcorn while we all get to watch what could be more interesting than a movie, before it's over. :lol:

[Mandy in TN]

This sounds an awful lot like what people say about the Bible. :lol: Yes, there are a lot of documents people are studying and "discovering" and they talk about them just like they are scripture. We just don't "discover" things about classical, like we do about CM, do we? At least not with the fervency?

 

I think having more documents actually brings more division, not less. No one has time to read them all, to figure out the big picture.

 

And CM was not a prophet. I don't really want to devote so much time to figuring out what she thought. Are we going to have degrees in CM now? It surely doesn't seem worth it.

 

Man, it just seems like this is gearing up for something we have never yet seen in the homeschooling world. There are people who have been lecturing for over 2 decades and supporting their families from those lectures that are now being "proved" "wrong" with documents. Sometimes money is involved here.

 

And we've got some Christian vs non-Christian stuff thrown in there, too.

 

And relaxed vs classical.

 

And I don't even know what else.

 

:lurk5: Someone pass the popcorn while we all get to watch what could be more interesting than a movie, before it's over. :lol:

If classical involves an education that is humanities heavy, includes Latin and modern languages, and involves memory work and timelines, CM can be used in that way. However, this aspect of CM is only a small part of the big picture and isn't what I have taken away from CM. I am much more drawn to habit training, respecting my child as whole person, and masterly inactivity. The importance of the acceptance and rejection of ideas is something that speaks to me and also falls in the classical category. OTOH- some people come away from CM with nature studies, narration/ dictation, picture and composer studies, short lessons, or century books. I don't care what other families take away from CM. Actually, most of this is not at odds with and could be modified or included as is in a WTM classical education. (The big difference between CM and WTM, where you would have to choose one or the other, seems to be phonics and grammar.)

 

Every family should evaluate what works best in their home for their children. I don't find myself at odds with someone else who is drawn to CM simply because different aspects of her writings have spoken to them than to me. Even though I personally am not trying to put together a PNEU school in my home or, alternatively, trying to follow every single suggestion CM ever made about children in the home no matter how vague or cursory the comment, I don't care if someone else gives it a go.

 

As far as I can tell, Hunter, you are the only one preaching a coming apocalypse. I must have missed something. Was there some big thread elsewhere with CM people bashing each other?

Confused-

Mandy

[My3girls]

:iagree: It is this way in my house as well...My youngest son loves dinosaurs and wanted to learn more about them...My middle son loves orcas and wanted to learn more about them...I bought them a few books and checked some out of the library, and they read them on their own, looked at the pictures, made drawings of them, etc...They have time to explore these things, but it does not change what I plan to teach them...

 

I know a lot of people change their educational plans based on their children's interests, but I do not...There is plenty of time for the boys to explore their own interests, and they have taken many "rabbit trails" based on their school work, but I don't change the plans to fit their interests...If you know me, you know that I don't mean that in a stuffy kind of way, I am just more of a parent led educator and not much of a child led one...Nothing wrong with child led if it works for you or you feel inclined to it, I just don't feel inclined to it ;)

 

This is us. My girls have their own interests that do not always line up with what the lesson plan is. They do their lessons and then they have their own time to pursue their interests. They each have their own kindle, share a computer, and we go to the library every week. They read about, research, and create lots of things that I really have no interest in whatsoever. I applaud them when they share with me, though. I feed their passion by making it possible for them to pursue their interests, but I definitely do not lead the effort or even contribute.

 

Example: dd12 checked out books on lizards. Dd9 asked if she could have an empty 2 liter bottle. They asked if I would take them to Walmart to spend their allowance. Next thing I know, we have a pet fence lizard in the garage that they caught, living in a Rubbermaid tub that they created a habitat in, and there's a cricket trap in the yard to catch its food which they learned how to make on youtube. Go team! Lol

[Mandy in TN]

Y'all are totally missing the point.

 

Part of what I wrote was bolded with the important part left unbolded. The important part was refusing. When explaining their method, authors write of their theoretical ideal being used with a theoretical child.

 

And what y'all are talking about doing isn't roping off the library and refusing access because it isn't on the schedule. I do the exact same thing in allowing ds to have and pursue his on interests outside of our school schedule. I do let him check out books at the library, research online, and, as others have said, purchase things related to his interest. And, frankly, I don't know if that is part of classical education, but it is very, very Charlotte Mason.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[KeriJ]

Just throwing this link into the conversation for the fun of it. :)

 

http://www.karenglass.net/

 

[Hunter]

Just throwing this link into the conversation for the fun of it. :)

 

http://www.karenglass.net/

 

Thank you!

[My3girls]

Y'all are totally missing the point.

 

Part of what I wrote was bolded with the important part left unbolded. The important part was refusing. When explaining their method, authors write of their theoretical ideal being used with a theoretical child.

 

And what y'all are talking about doing isn't roping off the library and refusing access because it isn't on the schedule. I do the exact same thing in allowing ds to have and pursue his on interests outside of our school schedule. I do let him check out books at the library, research online, and, as others have said, purchase things related to his interest. And, frankly, I don't know if that is part of classical education, but it is very, very Charlotte Mason.

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

I agree it is Charlotte Mason. I don't think Charlotte Mason is child led learning. I do think you can have Multum non Multa while employing Charlotte Mason methods.

[Seeker of Schole]

If classical involves an education that is humanities heavy, includes Latin and modern languages, and involves memory work and timelines, CM can be used in that way. However, this aspect of CM is only a small part of the big picture and isn't what I have taken away from CM. I am much more drawn to habit training, respecting my child as whole person, and masterly inactivity. The importance of the acceptance and rejection of ideas is something that speaks to me and also falls in the classical category. OTOH- some people come away from CM with nature studies, narration/ dictation, picture and composer studies, short lessons, or century books. I don't care what other families take away from CM. Actually, most of this is not at odds with and could be modified or included as is in a WTM classical education. (The big difference between CM and WTM, where you would have to choose one or the other, seems to be phonics and grammar.)

 

 

Some of the above is why I think that some of CM methods are part of Classical Education. I consider WTM neo-classical - having many components of classical education. Which is why I believe I can pull what speaks to me from both, combine them, and still have a form of classical education.

 

 

Just throwing this link into the conversation for the fun of it. :)

 

http://www.karenglass.net/

 

Interesting!

[ElizaG]

 

 

Y'all are totally missing the point.

Part of what I wrote was bolded with the important part left unbolded. The important part was refusing. When explaining their method, authors write of their theoretical ideal being used with a theoretical child.

 

And what y'all are talking about doing isn't roping off the library and refusing access because it isn't on the schedule.

The post I quoted wasn't about preventing a child from reading suitable books that the family already owns, though.  I've never come across that recommendation.   Maybe it would help if you shared the author and title of the book that has this "theoretical ideal" that you're referring to?

 

 I do the exact same thing in allowing ds to have and pursue his on interests outside of our school schedule. I do let him check out books at the library, research online, and, as others have said, purchase things related to his interest. And, frankly, I don't know if that is part of classical education, but it is very, very Charlotte Mason.

From everything I've read, both "multum non multa" and Charlotte Mason's advice to "spread a feast" relate to the specific subjects and books that the teacher actively shares with the child.  Giving the child access to a wide choice of reading material isn't the same thing.  Charlotte Mason says this herself in volume 5 of Home Education, and again in volume 6.  

 

I'm also not seeing how doing research online has anything in particular to do with CM.  We have no way of knowing what she would have thought about children's use of electronic media.   (I'm starting to think she's the Rorschach test of homeschooling!)  

[Hunter]

As far as I can tell, Hunter, you are the only one preaching a coming apocalypse. I must have missed something. Was there some big thread elsewhere with CM people bashing each other?

Confused-

Mandy

 

I don't mind being the only one saying what I think is coming. I'm told I have the most finely tuned threat meter that anyone has seen. It's enough that people that know me start getting nervous if they see me getting nervous. 

 

I'll get up and walk across a room to put some room between me and upcoming action, and not long after people will say, "How did you know? NOTHING was happening, yet!"

 

I'll watch something very small on the news and say, "uh oh!" and people will laugh and make fun of me. Then days, weeks, even years later, those people will say, "How did you know?"

 

Time will tell. I start saying my stuff, long BEFORE it gets hot, not AFTER it gets hot. We have more than 5 senses. Just because we only have labels for 5 doesn't mean we don't have more. My unnamed senses are picking up on brewing tensions. Also history repeats itself again and again and again. People don't change, just the particulars.

 

I hope I'm wrong. I want people to be happy, more than I find this all a bit amusing.

[serendipitous journey]

This is a thought about the OP, reconciling CM and the much-not-many.  Noting that neither are at the heart of "classical" it seems to me, though both can be compatible.

 

If you are feeling drawn to much-not-many you certainly don't want to go and create your own CM education from scratch.  You'll be "many-d" to bits in no time.  But if you pick up something like AO or Mater Amabilis, what have you got? 

 

1. reading & writing (yes: all those books can get tossed up to reading, and building the necessary knowledge base to read well.  AO readings are much deeper than wide)

2. nature study

3. math

4. foreign language

5. religion

6. art

7. music

8. generous amounts of time outside/physical fitness

 

Is that "many"?  I don't think you can have a truly classical education without the art, music, and physical fitness.  Reading/writing, math, religion, and foreign language (ie Latin) are essential.  So I suppose you could drop Nature Study. 

 

I myself don't use much, not many OR spreading a feast as my own focus/motto.  Honestly my children are such picky eaters that the feast metaphor falls totally flat here :) .  What is your own center of reflection, your way of making the choices and compromises involved in each day?   Perhaps one of these mottos captures an essence that will be useful to you, and if so you can pull from the other tradition as fits that spirit; if not, draw from them toward the center you are working from. 

[Guest KDG]

Forgive me for hopping into your discussion uninvited.  I'm Karen Glass, and I landed here because of the link in this thread to my upcoming book.

 

I think a discussion of this nature can be confusing because terms must be defined.  "Charlotte Mason" education at least has six fat books which can be confidently referred to and which aid in its definition.  Who is going to define "classical education" with equal authority?  This is why an argument about whether or not a CM education is classical can even arise--because classical education is open to interpretation. Amusingly enough--many voices, not one. Obviously, since I wrote a book (and there is an article by me here on the WTM site on the same topic--http://www.welltrainedmind.com/the-classical-side-of-charlotte-mason/), I think that CM is classical.

 

But an opinion on that subject rests, one way or the other, on whom you allow to define classical education for you.

 

The thing that interests me in this discussion is the setting at odds two ideas--"much, not many" against "spreading the feast."  I'm going to suggest that both of those ideas don't stand well alone.  They are both part of a larger picture, and need to be put back into their context before they can be compared.

 

I think "spreading the feast" is part of a larger analogy--that the mind feeds/grows on ideas, and that the diet for the mind must be various, just as diet for the body must be various.  It's not about covering a lot of ground or ticking off a lot of boxes, but about recognizing that just as vitamins, minerals, micro-nutrients, macro-nutrients, proteins, carbohydrates, fats, and phyto-chemicals play a role in physical nutrition, so too, perhaps, robust mental health also requires much variety--a little of this, maybe a lot more of that, and thank goodness there are some foods that cover more than one category, right?

 

I suspect "much, not many" has a larger context, too, and if anyone can place it in context so I can read it in that context, I'd be interested.  Or if you know, maybe you could share here?  I believe it's Cicero, but I don't know which work, and I'm not even 100% certain about Cicero.

 

Anyway..."spreading the feast" isn't a principle...it's the outcome of a principle.  The principle, in Charlotte Mason's words, is "education is the science of relations."  That's the starting place for understanding why you would want to include a wide variety of knowledge in your educational efforts, and "why" almost always matters more than "how."

 

Again, my apologies for popping in here--thanks for linking to my new book, and I hope it will contribute a great deal to the on-going conversation about education.  The more we learn and grow, the greater the benefits to the children we are educating, and that's what really matters to all of us, I think.

[Mandy in TN]

I don't mind being the only one saying what I think is coming. I'm told I have the most finely tuned threat meter that anyone has seen. It's enough that people that know me start getting nervous if they see me getting nervous.

 

I'll get up and walk across a room to put some room between me and upcoming action, and not long after people will say, "How did you know? NOTHING was happening, yet!"

 

I'll watch something very small on the news and say, "uh oh!" and people will laugh and make fun of me. Then days, weeks, even years later, those people will say, "How did you know?"

 

Time will tell. I start saying my stuff, long BEFORE it gets hot, not AFTER it gets hot. We have more than 5 senses. Just because we only have labels for 5 doesn't mean we don't have more. My unnamed senses are picking up on brewing tensions. Also history repeats itself again and again and again. People don't change, just the particulars.

 

I hope I'm wrong. I want people to be happy, more than I find this all a bit amusing.

Well, I have yet to see CM people begin bashing each other. ;)

[Mandy in TN]

The post I quoted wasn't about preventing a child from reading suitable books that the family already owns, though. I've never come across that recommendation. Maybe it would help if you shared the author and title of the book that has this "theoretical ideal" that you're referring to?

 

From everything I've read, both "multum non multa" and Charlotte Mason's advice to "spread a feast" relate to the specific subjects and books that the teacher actively shares with the child. Giving the child access to a wide choice of reading material isn't the same thing. Charlotte Mason says this herself in volume 5 of Home Education, and again in volume 6.

 

I'm also not seeing how doing research online has anything in particular to do with CM. We have no way of knowing what she would have thought about children's use of electronic media. (I'm starting to think she's the Rorschach test of homeschooling!)

ALL authors when sharing their method of education share what their education looks like and the exact way they think it should be done. If they didn't believe in their method, they wouldn't be writing a book explaining how to use it. Choose any book you like that was written about an educational method and open it. Inside it will describe how the author believes that method should look in practice. That does not mean that is how it needs to happen in your (the general your and not your specific) home with your children. Take from it what works for you (again the general you) and use it.

 

What I was saying was that it would be difficult to take either extreme of taking the two phrases literally all the time with real children. How do you ONLY cover a few chosen topics and refuse to allow children exposure to more? Lock them up? Lock up all other information? Conversely, how do you do a feast all the time (as I pointed out this feast phrase doesn't encompass CM for me but if that is what you wanted to take from her writings) and cover lots of things all day never taking the time to delve into a topic? How would you do that? Would you refuse to allow further research? Would you lock up the children or the information? I have not found that real children in the real world naturally go to either extreme all the time. Children are curious about many things not just a few. Children sometimes become engrossed in a topic and want to know more and more.

 

CM wrote of masterly inactivity and students taking personal initiative in work in vol. 3. Certainly, the PNEU students were expected to be productive in the time after their formal morning lessons. The older children definitely read, wrote, and presented to each other. This is not something done outside of CM, but is a part of CM. It is something that someone could take from CM.

 

I don't know how this sort of thing figures into multum non multa. I don't know if it is something discussed or something just done by some parents because so much isn't included. If it is part of multum non multa, then it is something else the two have in common.

 

Mandy

[Mandy in TN]

http://firstheralds.com/charlotte-mason/charlotte-mason-education/

 

I like this for a concise explanation of CM. It has three short sections: I. Mason's Starting Point: Children Are Born Persons, II. Foundational Principles: Education is an Atmosphere, a Discipline, and a Life, III. Practical Applications of Mason's Philosophy. From this concise description, maybe it will be easier to see where you can overlay or blend multum non multa with CM.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Amy M]

I am still in the overwhelmed-but-trying-to-understand-this-stuff category. I have added many of the CM "extras" (I'll call them) to our classical education, and sometimes feel that we are stuffing our day with arguably good things that are just too much altogether. I don't always feel like I'm teaching from a state of rest trying to get it all done. (But perhaps no mom with 2 toddlers and lots of littles with teacher-intensive subjects feels restful in this position!?) So with the disclaimers that I am inexperienced in these discussions and that I'm not sure if this exactly pertains to the particular debate of multum non multa vs. spreading-a-feast, I wanted to add a thought.

 

CM talks about educating the whole person, and CiRCE about the good, true, and beautiful, and both focus on the inner person rather than preparing a person for collegiate or vocational life. So when I think about how to add the good, true, and especially beautiful to our homeschool, it seems to me that the best ways to do that would be to implement CM's art and music appreciation ideas, as well as nature study. And poetry and good literature. The good and true are implemented in the other skills and contents subjects and Bible. So in the end, I don't see much of a contradiction between these philosophies, unless we get down to specific subject debates and how to implement them.

 

I agree that the examples given above of how people let children pursue their own interests outside of school-time can fit both philosophies, CM and classical. I'm struggling to get the distinctions in the debate or how they have to be inconsistent with one another. Couldn't you spread the feast in a multum non multa way? Go deep on a historical topic, for example, by spreading a feast of books on the subject? Maybe I'm displaying my lack of understanding of the philosophies here...

[Nicholas_mom]

CM talks about educating the whole person, and CiRCE about the good, true, and beautiful, and both focus on the inner person rather than preparing a person for collegiate or vocational life. So when I think about how to add the good, true, and especially beautiful to our homeschool, it seems to me that the best ways to do that would be to implement CM's art and music appreciation ideas, as well as nature study. And poetry and good literature. The good and true are implemented in the other skills and contents subjects and Bible.

 

 

Thank you!  This is a light bulb moment for me :)  How many times I saw this in different ways and it took YOU for me to make sense of it all!

[Guest Ferhoodle]

I have to ask, though....why would you choose to drop science?? In the younger years, Nature Study IS science. I cannot imagine that those doing a classical education would choose to drop science?

 

1. reading & writing (yes: all those books can get tossed up to reading, and building the necessary knowledge base to read well.  AO readings are much deeper than wide)

2. nature study

3. math

4. foreign language

5. religion

6. art

7. music

8. generous amounts of time outside/physical fitness

 

Is that "many"?  I don't think you can have a truly classical education without the art, music, and physical fitness.  Reading/writing, math, religion, and foreign language (ie Latin) are essential.  So I suppose you could drop Nature Study.

 

[birchbark]

So in the end, I don't see much of a contradiction between these philosophies, unless we get down to specific subject debates and how to implement them.

 

I agree with you, but I think this is what the thread was originally intended to be about. (Correct me if I'm wrong!) I don't think the OP intended to pit CM against Classical. My impression was that she was comparing one aspect of Classical with one aspect of CM. Multum Non Multa does not define the whole of Classical any more than Spreading a Feast defines CM.

 

To understand what is meant by Multum Non Multa, check out this vid:

 

A shorter summary can be found here at 8:25:

 

No where does it mention locking up information from children. It is referring to how many subjects are formally covered in a schedule.

[Hunter]

Yes, this thread is ALL over the place!

[ElizaG]

Multum Non Multa does not define the whole of Classical any more than Spreading a Feast defines CM.

Yes, it's just one saying.   Even within traditional classical education (by which I mean the system of elite literary and rhetorical training that was prevalent from ancient Greece to Charlotte Mason's day), there were other rules of thumb that might seem to conflict with it.   For instance, in The Idea of a University, Cardinal Newman says that the maxim of all good tutors is to teach "a little, but well."  Wait a minute!  How can you teach much, but only teach a little?   :svengo:  So this sort of advice has to be taken in the context of the whole system.  

 

It's interesting that Newman uses the same word that Charlotte Mason does:  "desultory."   The message I get from both authors is that children are likely to be casual and superficial readers in their free time, but formal schooling is supposed to train them out of that.  I think this is a key piece of advice, and one that seems to be overlooked by some authors of literature-based homeschool curricula, including "CM-inspired" and "neo-classical" ones.   We've tried a couple of them, and found that there were too many different topics, too many lightweight or picture-heavy books, and just too many books in general.   "Desultory" is a pretty apt word for the experience.

Newman also said that most grown men remain boys in their intellectual habits.  I don't think the situation has improved since his time, and I'm pretty sure the Internet isn't helping.   I think homeschooling can make a difference, but with all the "mind candy" on the market these days, we need to be intentional about it.

[Desert Strawberry]

I think they can overlap.

 

When I think of a feast, it is first of all good things. Five kinds of pizza and four bags of chips is not a feast. You cannot really feast on junk.

 

Secondly, if you are hungry, you are not seeking something contrived and deliberately unusual, as in a gourmet restaurant. Something simple is a feast if it is nourishing and abundant. One of the best meals I've ever had was homemade chicken soup and homemade bread. It had several ingredients but was nonetheless simple. Even Thanksgiving does not need to be a seven-course meal, and indeed such a meal (multa) could be sickening rather than nourishing.

I agree with this.

The feast is more about assuring quality and accessibility in all topics and multum non multa is encouraging a deeper exploration of those topics, not just glossing over a brief summary and moving on to something else. When we study dinosaurs, we learn all we can about dinosaurs, and all of natural history using the best materials available. We don't just read a few chapters of a textbook, check the box and start biology. We will study many topics in their own time. We can't do everything all at once.

 

IMO study becomes deeper as a child ages. My 11yo can take a topic further than my 5yo. By the time he's 15, I expect him to have much more comprehensive studies.

 

I think this translates well to math curricula. Some are mastery based. You work a skill until you have it upside down and backwards. You might spend a year on that one skill. But you don't move on until you really have it. Spending a year on multiplication doesn't mean you will never make it to algebra. You just don't need to introduce algebraic concepts in 3rd grade (not that you shouldn't, just that it isn't necessary).

Other programs are so spiral that you never get more than a cursory understanding. You might cover twenty topics in a year, but you haven't mastered any. There isn't time for more than a brief introduction.

On top of that, if the methods being taught are not solid, if they are disjointed or illogical, or presented poorly, the chances of successfully mastering any skills are exceptionally poor. We see a lot of this in our current education system. There isn't time to really learn the material, the methods being taught are questionable at best. The results reflect these facts.

 

For me, these two concepts go so well together that I don't see any conflict at all.

[Seeker of Schole]

I think "spreading the feast" is part of a larger analogy--that the mind feeds/grows on ideas, and that the diet for the mind must be various, just as diet for the body must be various.  It's not about covering a lot of ground or ticking off a lot of boxes, but about recognizing that just as vitamins, minerals, micro-nutrients, macro-nutrients, proteins, carbohydrates, fats, and phyto-chemicals play a role in physical nutrition, so too, perhaps, robust mental health also requires much variety--a little of this, maybe a lot more of that, and thank goodness there are some foods that cover more than one category, right?

 

Anyway..."spreading the feast" isn't a principle...it's the outcome of a principle.  The principle, in Charlotte Mason's words, is "education is the science of relations."  That's the starting place for understanding why you would want to include a wide variety of knowledge in your educational efforts, and "why" almost always matters more than "how."

 

 

 

Thank you for your input. That analogy has helped me to gain some perspective.

 

 

I agree with you, but I think this is what the thread was originally intended to be about. (Correct me if I'm wrong!) I don't think the OP intended to pit CM against Classical. My impression was that she was comparing one aspect of Classical with one aspect of CM. Multum Non Multa does not define the whole of Classical any more than Spreading a Feast defines CM.

 

 

Yes, looking at one aspect of each only (which can admittedly be difficult to do...).

 

 

 

Yes, it's just one saying.   Even within traditional classical education (by which I mean the system of elite literary and rhetorical training that was prevalent from ancient Greece to Charlotte Mason's day), there were other rules of thumb that might seem to conflict with it.   For instance, in The Idea of a University, Cardinal Newman says that the maxim of all good tutors is to teach "a little, but well."  Wait a minute!  How can you teach much, but only teach a little?   :svengo:  So this sort of advice has to be taken in the context of the whole system.  

 

It's interesting that Newman uses the same word that Charlotte Mason does: "desultory."   The message I get from both authors is that children are likely to be casual and superficial readers in their free time, but formal schooling is supposed to train them out of that.  I think this is a key piece of advice, and one that seems to be overlooked by some authors of literature-based homeschool curricula, including "CM-inspired" and "neo-classical" ones.   We've tried a couple of them, and found that there were too many different topics, too many lightweight or picture-heavy books, and just too many books in general.   "Desultory" is a pretty apt word for the experience.

Newman also said that most grown men remain boys in their intellectual habits.  I don't think the situation has improved since his time, and I'm pretty sure the Internet isn't helping.   I think homeschooling can make a difference, but with all the "mind candy" on the market these days, we need to be intentional about it.

 

 

Interesting and the bolded is something that I struggle with. One of the things that I'm also working on is weeding out books that are good, but not great. There are so many book lists, and it is way too easy to do many (no depth) or to fail to spread a feast (for example - use only historical fiction, vs a variety).

[Seeker of Schole]

The feast is more about assuring quality and accessibility in all topics and multum non multa is encouraging a deeper exploration of those topics, not just glossing over a brief summary and moving on to something else. When we study dinosaurs, we learn all we can about dinosaurs, and all of natural history using the best materials available. We don't just read a few chapters of a textbook, check the box and start biology. We will study many topics in their own time. We can't do everything all at once.

 

IMO study becomes deeper as a child ages. My 11yo can take a topic further than my 5yo. By the time he's 15, I expect him to have much more comprehensive studies.

 

I think this translates well to math curricula. Some are mastery based. You work a skill until you have it upside down and backwards. You might spend a year on that one skill. But you don't move on until you really have it. Spending a year on multiplication doesn't mean you will never make it to algebra. You just don't need to introduce algebraic concepts in 3rd grade (not that you shouldn't, just that it isn't necessary).

Other programs are so spiral that you never get more than a cursory understanding. You might cover twenty topics in a year, but you haven't mastered any. There isn't time for more than a brief introduction.

On top of that, if the methods being taught are not solid, if they are disjointed or illogical, or presented poorly, the chances of successfully mastering any skills are exceptionally poor. We see a lot of this in our current education system. There isn't time to really learn the material, the methods being taught are questionable at best. The results reflect these facts.

 

For me, these two concepts go so well together that I don't see any conflict at all.

 

Thank you, this also helps with perspective. It seems that when I'm spreading a feast I need to think of more long term. If I focus on the number of years I have to work with her that makes it easier to think about the many topics to cover, and then taking specific topics in depth (for the much) each year, or semester, as is appropriate to the content.

 

[Desert Strawberry]

Thank you, this also helps with perspective. It seems that when I'm spreading a feast I need to think of more long term. If I focus on the number of years I have to work with her that makes it easier to think about the many topics to cover, and then taking specific topics in depth (for the much) each year, or semester, as is appropriate to the content.

 

Definitely. You have so much time. Really. 

You know how I like to spread the feast, in very real terms? We check out many books at the library. Some from CM/classic heavy literature lists, some of their current content subjects, some of my topic of I interest (something I want to give them-poetry of various themes, fun grammar books, nursery rhymes, picture books of a certain style, a specific story/author, sometimes stuff that ties in with history, science, foreign language), some of their choosing. 

These go into a couple of milk crates in the dining room. They have access to them during school time, while I prepare meals, before bed, during nap time, early in the morning. They know that there is plenty of good stuff to explore in there. It's a special treat to which they have ready access. 

Bravewriter's poetry tea is great for spreading the feast. 

[PagesandFields]

Okay... I haven't had time to read all the amazing responses yet... and this might seem completely ridiculous... but this is how my brain understands it.  

 

It's like eating...  

 

I love to savor lots of little bits of food that are beautiful and healthy and colorful, flavors of other cultures, flavors that my family's made for generations.  A well balanced, wholesome, fun diet so to speak... 

 

BUT.. In the spring half of my diet is smoothies and salsa... because it fits spring.  I make different kinds of salsas, different kinds of smoothies.  I don't entirely know why... it's just what I do and it fits me.  In the winter I eat potatoes.  And iced cream.  And soups.  

 

I think the two can happen within the same life, just not at the same time.  Life has natural rhythms, ups and downs and changes in tempo.... and what I have understood so far from the two seemingly different ideas is that they're both about honoring a certain natural rhythm of learning... just different parts of the song.  

[dauphin]

It's interesting that Newman uses the same word that Charlotte Mason does:  "desultory."   The message I get from both authors is that children are likely to be casual and superficial readers in their free time, but formal schooling is supposed to train them out of that.  I think this is a key piece of advice, and one that seems to be overlooked by some authors of literature-based homeschool curricula, including "CM-inspired" and "neo-classical" ones.   We've tried a couple of them, and found that there were too many different topics, too many lightweight or picture-heavy books, and just too many books in general.   "Desultory" is a pretty apt word for the experience.

 

 

 

 

Interesting and the bolded is something that I struggle with. One of the things that I'm also working on is weeding out books that are good, but not great. There are so many book lists, and it is way too easy to do many (no depth) or to fail to spread a feast (for example - use only historical fiction, vs a variety).

 

Okay, so I think I have an idea of which curricula you all might shy away from based on those comments. SO, tell me what describes a better one? What should it look like? Who does it closest/best (and what would you need to do to make it passable enough to use????)

 

Does that question make sense? What you are saying resonates for me, but I'm still to new to everything to have a handle on where to go from there WRT curriculum choices. (I would gladly take a PM if there's reservations about public statements here....)

[craftyerin]

Okay, so I think I have an idea of which curricula you all might shy away from based on those comments. SO, tell me what describes a better one? What should it look like? Who does it closest/best (and what would you need to do to make it passable enough to use????)

 

Does that question make sense? What you are saying resonates for me, but I'm still to new to everything to have a handle on where to go from there WRT curriculum choices. (I would gladly take a PM if there's reservations about public statements here....)

Have you considered Ambleside? I'm trying Y1 with my kids next year and I was SHOCKED by how slowly they have books scheduled to be read.  Quite the opposite of Sonlight, etc.  IMO, even if you don't like some of their book choices (I'm subbing out their history, for example) their amount of reading per year and pace of reading should allow time for more depth. Their FAQ on why they read fewer books, more slowly:  https://amblesideonline.org/FAQ.shtml#canchi

[Seeker of Schole]

Okay, so I think I have an idea of which curricula you all might shy away from based on those comments. SO, tell me what describes a better one? What should it look like? Who does it closest/best (and what would you need to do to make it passable enough to use????)

 

Does that question make sense? What you are saying resonates for me, but I'm still to new to everything to have a handle on where to go from there WRT curriculum choices. (I would gladly take a PM if there's reservations about public statements here....)

 

Curriculum for what subject?