For Those Who Have Taught Saxon Integrated Math Through High School...

[Reefgazer]

How did your student do on such standardized tests as the SAT/SATII/ACT, and how well did they do in college in their math courses?  We have used Saxon through these middle grades and my daughter gets math with no issues.  I had planned to do Saxon through high school, but I heard a few moms at a convention this weekend trash-talk Saxon for high school, and I realized I hadn't done enough due diligence on the high school program.  Do any of you know of any peer-reviewed and reliable journal articles with data on how well Saxon users do post-high school and on standardized college admission exams? 

[MiMi 4under3]

:bigear: 

 

Saxon lover here...

[Reefgazer]

I am, too.  I see the results for the middle grades with my DD.  I was just wondering if high school gives the same great results. 

:bigear:

 

Saxon lover here...

 

[justkeepswimming]

My oldest is going to be a junior this year and has used Saxon all the way through. So, we're not as far ahead as you were asking about - but she is midway through the Advanced Mathematics book. I'd heard the same comments and was nervous about continuing with Saxon through high school, but we briefly tried something else and flew back to Saxon. She self-teaches for the most part (uses Art Reed's videos when she feels the added explanation will help).

 

She's taken both the PSAT and the ACT tests and several practice tests for each of those plus SAT. Last year (beginning the Adv. Math book) she would get perfect scores on the questions that covered things she'd covered via Saxon (would miss, skip, or have a "lucky guess" on the questions asking about things she hadn't yet learned). She's studying for the ACT again and hasn't taken a practice test recently & I'm anxious to see the difference in her score now that she's covered many of those topics.

 

I read on this board over and over again "If it ain't broke - don't fix it" and decided to stick with Saxon for this dd. We are SO happy we did. She is a mathy kid, though. For many, Saxon doesn't click. But, when it does, it certainly seems to do the job and well.

[JuanitaL]

My oldest used Saxon up through Calculus (with DIVE); he had very nice scores on his standardized tests. He just finished his third year of college (Engineer) and is doing very well. That said, his siblings are not using it. They made it part way through Alg 2 before we all decided it just wasn't working.

[retiredHSmom]

My oldest daughter used Saxon through advanced math, she took calculus her senior year at the community college. She just finished her sophomore year as a mechanical engineering major. She has had no problems at all with college math or engineering classes.

 

My younger daughter also used Saxon through advanced math and then took calculus at the community college. She just finished her junior year at college as a math major. She has taken 14 post calculus math classes including many proof based courses and two graduate level math classes and has a 3.95 GPA.

 

If Saxon works for you feel free to continue using it

[G5052]

Yes, no problems at all here either.  Very high standardized and college test scores.  I don't think that way, but mine have thrived with Saxon.

[Reefgazer]

Well, that's encouraging!  Thanks!

[Ellie]

How did your student do on such standardized tests as the SAT/SATII/ACT, and how well did they do in college in their math courses?  We have used Saxon through these middle grades and my daughter gets math with no issues.  I had planned to do Saxon through high school, but I heard a few moms at a convention this weekend trash-talk Saxon for high school, and I realized I hadn't done enough due diligence on the high school program.  Do any of you know of any peer-reviewed and reliable journal articles with data on how well Saxon users do post-high school and on standardized college admission exams? 

 

Are there peer-reviewed and reliable journal articles with data on how well users of other publishers' texts do post-high school and on standardized college admission exams?

 

That some people trash-talk Saxon (or any other publisher) is not a big deal. There are supporters and detractors of everything.

 

Here are some comments by Janet in WA, who used to be a valued member here and who has graduated all four sons, all of whom used Saxon:

 

"Your son won't be ruined for a future in science if he studies Saxon for a year" -- or for 13 years for that matter. My 16 year old son, who also loves science, has used Saxon for years. Last year, the equivalent of his jr. year of high school, he started taking community college classes. After completing only a portion of the Advanced Math book, he scored very high on the college's math placement test (didn't miss any problems). He has been able to start on his marine biology major two years before most other students do. If anything, I credit Saxon for furthering his future in science -- allowing him to get started on that future a couple of years early.

 

Let me tell you why we chose Saxon for our sons. In college, I double-majored in biology and chemistry. When I saw Saxon, I recognized exactly the kind of math instruction I wish I'd had to prepare me for my college maths and sciences. And from what I have read over the years, I would say that a large proportion of homeschool graduates who go on to science majors in college have used Saxon. It really is a science-oriented math curriculum. I am not advising you to use Saxon -- I think you will be fine whatever program you choose -- but I am advising you not to believe all the negative things you hear about Saxon. There are just too many of us out here who have had great results with Saxon.

 

[1Togo]

When we first began home schooling, we didn't have a lot of money for curriculum, and it was so many years ago there weren't as many options.  I bought a used Robinson Curriculum cd set, a set of Saxon textbooks, and followed the Course of Study.  The Robinson family has six children, who all used only Saxon and were planning to earn or had earned advanced degrees in science when we began home schooling, which I thought was a fairly good endorsement since I hadn't seen that level of success with other curriculum. Of course, that was in the Dark Ages of home schooling, and I didn't have much to compare.  Our two oldest children used Saxon through Calculus and did well enough on the ACT to earn scholarships.  The oldest has significant learning disabilities and had no problems with College Algebra, Business Calculus, and Accounting courses in college.  The other child did not go to college.  We have not used Saxon or RC, for that matter, with our youngest and regret it.

 

You will find Saxon fans and naysayers like any other curriculum.  I agree with other posters that I would not make changes if a curriculum is working.  Strong students can just move through the Saxon textbooks more quickly and on to college-level courses. 

[Teachin'Mine]

If it's working, I would definitely not change.  No info on any study results, but dd excelled in both the testing and the college courses having completed Saxon texts through Calculus.   I think supplementing with additional problem solving of some kind is good to do and they get some of that with the standardized test prep.

[Wildcat]

Count me among those who had a child use Saxon through Calculus and had high ACT math scores.

 

Said student is an engineering student and received "A" grades in all university math classes (and is happy to finally be finished with math!)

 

If Saxon is working for you, I wouldn't change.

[Jann in TX]

I taught Saxon for over 10 years (high school level) and my own girls used it for elementary- Saxon 87.  We had to switch because the Saxon method did not work for my girls once the problems became more complex (mult-step).

 

I had many students who used Saxon 'all the way' through high school and had excellent results (pleased with test scores).

 

I did find that about 30% of my students would have been better off with a different program (my own girls included!).

 

This is just to say that using the Saxon program will not guarantee good test scores (and being prepared for college maths) any more than a solid traditonal program.  It is only a good program if it works for YOUR student.  Saxon changes quite a bit at the Algebra 1 level... students are taught pieces of problems and have to put the pieces together on their own in the homework. MOST problems in the homework set after Set 30 will NOT have a worked example to follow... this is when you really find out if the method is working or not.  Some students can stop, go back and start again from the beginning... others who struggle will be better off changing programs.

 

 

[Reefgazer]

This is what I am thinking about at the moment - if and how Saxon will change it's presentation, and how I will know if it is working well or not before we're so far in it becomes time-consuming and difficult to reverse. 

I taught Saxon for over 10 years (high school level) and my own girls used it for elementary- Saxon 87.  We had to switch because the Saxon method did not work for my girls once the problems became more complex (mult-step).

 

I had many students who used Saxon 'all the way' through high school and had excellent results (pleased with test scores).

 

I did find that about 30% of my students would have been better off with a different program (my own girls included!).

 

This is just to say that using the Saxon program will not guarantee good test scores (and being prepared for college maths) any more than a solid traditonal program.  It is only a good program if it works for YOUR student.  Saxon changes quite a bit at the Algebra 1 level... students are taught pieces of problems and have to put the pieces together on their own in the homework. MOST problems in the homework set after Set 30 will NOT have a worked example to follow... this is when you really find out if the method is working or not.  Some students can stop, go back and start again from the beginning... others who struggle will be better off changing programs.

 

[Erin]

Saxon changes quite a bit at the Algebra 1 level... students are taught pieces of problems and have to put the pieces together on their own in the homework. MOST problems in the homework set after Set 30 will NOT have a worked example to follow... this is when you really find out if the method is working or not.  Some students can stop, go back and start again from the beginning... others who struggle will be better off changing programs.

 

 

It does?  Does it maybe do this AFTER Algebra I?  Or maybe it's an edition thing...?

We just finished Algebra I and it was basically the same approach as 5/4 up through 8/7.  There is no secret to what's going on.  There was no putting the pieces together by themselves, and all of the problems in the homework set had a worked example just like every previous level.

[Teachin'Mine]

It does?  Does it maybe do this AFTER Algebra I?  Or maybe it's an edition thing...?

We just finished Algebra I and it was basically the same approach as 5/4 up through 8/7.  There is no secret to what's going on.  There was no putting the pieces together by themselves, and all of the problems in the homework set had a worked example just like every previous level.

 

 

We didn't notice any change either, but I'm guessing that's because Saxon worked well for our students.  I'm guessing that if the student says it's more difficult, that could be the sign that it's not working for them.  I would think that could also happen to students who aren't working the problems in the lessons, or writing down each of the steps, or skipping problems, or making simple errors due to teen brain.  But if they aren't making the connections, then they should switch to a different math program.

[TheApprentice]

My son is currently using it. He's doing pretty well. As a sophomore, he took the Accuplacer at our community college and placed at the Pre-Calculus level, which he will take in the fall as a junior.

[kiana]

Yes. Also, if a student does well in their math, but is unable to apply it in other classes such as chemistry or physics, I would also consider that a sign that the program (whatever it is) is not working for your student.

[Reefgazer]

Thanks for all the input!  I'll have to watch carefully after Lesson 30 in Algebra I and make sure Saxon is still working for her.  Lots of good information here.

[kiana]

Yes. Quite honestly -- the good thing is that Saxon's computation skill practice is solid enough that even if the program doesn't end up being a good fit for her, she should be able to transfer to another algebra course and test through part of it without losing a lot of ground.

[CourtneyBrooke]

I used Saxon during my high school years and scored high on all my tests.

My daughter just finished Saxon Alg 1 and scored post-high school grade equivalent on her standardized test.

 

We will continue to use it.

[Nan in Mass]

I'm one of those who tried Saxon twice, once with a math-bright engineer, and once with a student whose strengths do not lie in engineering, and had it not work.  The scary part was that it appeared to be working.  Both students did fine when using it.  The problems came outside of the Saxon program when they tried to apply their math.  Saxon chops each concept into tiny slices and has you practice the slices at intervals throughout the book.  Mine were unable to put the concepts together to do general high level problem-solving outside of the Saxon math book.  I'm not sure the SAT or ACT test this?  Lots of people use Saxon and go on to be engineers, so obviously it works for some people.  I think you might be able to tell if it is working for you by picking up a few other math books that have difficult word problems, the kind where you have to do some real problem solving rather than just plug-and-chug the numbers, and having your student try them.  You might also be able to tell by watching what happens when your student tries to do the math to build something geometrically complicated.  That is how we discovered we had a problem.  My father worked with my children one day a week and he always was making them think and use their math and problem-solving skills, as well as teaching to fix an outboard engine or build a set of book shelves or whatever.  He told me that in his opinion, my children were dangerously incompetent lol.  We switched to a math program that explains what the goal is first, then teaches the concept all at once, and puts the emphasis on concepts rather than algorithms.  If it has been working for you, though, maybe it will continue to work?  I would just double check by trying the word problems in a few other math books, ones that are known for emphasizing problem solving skills.

 

Nan

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

My son's school uses Saxon math for middle school and high school through Calculus and has great results in AP exams according to their math guru.He said many kids get a 5 on AP exams. I like that Saxon has all the materials a homeschool student would need such as DVDs, solution manuals and test booklets which we use for afterschooling a bit since ds was very accelerated in math in this school. He is finishing up the AlgebrA 2 book now. We do supplement here and there with Khan Academy, CLE math, ad AOPS but it has mostly been Saxon seeing as he is in school and has limited time as a result.

 

ETA to add correct average AP score at his school.

[Serenade]

Just posting to say I appreciate this thread.

[Reefgazer]

This is what I wonder about.  I guess I should continue to use a supplement to be sure they are on-track, problem-solving-wise.

 

Could you share which math program you switched to, after your dad has his little talk with you?  :)

I'm one of those who tried Saxon twice, once with a math-bright engineer, and once with a student whose strengths do not lie in engineering, and had it not work.  The scary part was that it appeared to be working.  Both students did fine when using it.  The problems came outside of the Saxon program when they tried to apply their math.  Saxon chops each concept into tiny slices and has you practice the slices at intervals throughout the book.  Mine were unable to put the concepts together to do general high level problem-solving outside of the Saxon math book.  I'm not sure the SAT or ACT test this?  Lots of people use Saxon and go on to be engineers, so obviously it works for some people.  I think you might be able to tell if it is working for you by picking up a few other math books that have difficult word problems, the kind where you have to do some real problem solving rather than just plug-and-chug the numbers, and having your student try them.  You might also be able to tell by watching what happens when your student tries to do the math to build something geometrically complicated.  That is how we discovered we had a problem.  My father worked with my children one day a week and he always was making them think and use their math and problem-solving skills, as well as teaching to fix an outboard engine or build a set of book shelves or whatever.  He told me that in his opinion, my children were dangerously incompetent lol.  We switched to a math program that explains what the goal is first, then teaches the concept all at once, and puts the emphasis on concepts rather than algorithms.  If it has been working for you, though, maybe it will continue to work?  I would just double check by trying the word problems in a few other math books, ones that are known for emphasizing problem solving skills.

 

Nan

 

[Nan in Mass]

Younger switched to Singapore and older one used an old math book from the dump (probably dolciani) and then switched to public school. Youngest also used Singapore. When they hit precalc, they switched to community college classes. Left tommy own devices, I would have done PM then Dolciani, but middle one insisted I do nem because he said he was much better off than his friends when it came to practical math. I haven,t looked at aops.

 

Nan

[momto2Cs]

nm

[Reefgazer]

How old was your child when her switched to Singapore, and did you/he find the transition difficult?

Younger switched to Singapore and older one used an old math book from the dump (probably dolciani) and then switched to public school. Youngest also used Singapore. When they hit precalc, they switched to community college classes. Left tommy own devices, I would have done PM then Dolciani, but middle one insisted I do nem because he said he was much better off than his friends when it came to practical math. I haven,t looked at aops.

Nan

 

[Nan in Mass]

Middle one was the one who switched.  He switched at the beginning of 6th grade.  I backed him up to Primary Math 3 (which is about where the bars begin).  He started NEM1 in 9th grade.  He did pre-calc at the community college in 12th grade.  This is my struggles with math child, so we weren't aiming to have him through calc by the end of high school.  We did math steadily but didn't rush.  Youngest and oldest's brains are wired such that they would have had no trouble catching up enough to start algebra in 8th grade.  I just didn't want to rush the middle one.  By the time we started Primary Math, he was one solid mass of misconceptions about how math works.  We did the textbook together orally, then he did the workbook himself later in the day.  We found that math and foreign languages had to be touched twice a day for them to be remembered.  Otherwise, we just spun our wheels.  We went more quickly through PM3, doing just the textbook for the easier lessons.  That is how we managed to do four levels in three years.  I also had him do some of the Challenging Problems (or whatever it was called) books.  Singapore is very applied and this was an approach that worked for him (and my engineer).  He was the one that insisted that I do NEM with youngest rather than switch to Dolciani (which I had had in school).

 

Nan