eternalsummer Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 You yourself stated that demographics and economics play a role in each of societal issues you pointed out. How you can then try and blame secularism simply baffles me. Like I said, there are many factors. One doesn't discount the other, as much as you would like it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 A religious society stresses many moral attributes that suppress deviancy and degeneracy. Look, there's a reason they've been so consistently selected for. Correlation doesn't preclude causation either. You get offended easily. But you don't have a strong correlation. The areas of the US with some of the highest rates of mental illness, obesity, and incarceration rates are also the most religious. You can't dismiss that relationship by saying "well, demographics/economics, duh!" without knifing your own argument in the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 But you don't have a strong correlation. The areas of the US with some of the highest rates of mental illness, obesity, and incarceration rates are also the most religious. You can't dismiss that relationship by saying "well, demographics/economics, duh!" without knifing your own argument in the back. Mental illness, obesity, and incarceration rates in the entire country over time have increased drastically. Again, apples to apples. You're knifing your irrelevant strawman again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Where is the link to secularism? Capitalism unfettered by common sense regulation, corporate personhood, the policies spawned by the war on drugs, and changes in farm subsidies under Nixon, just to name a few, are more direct/reasonable explanations for the many of the problems described in your links. Would you blame religion for child labor then? Would you blame religion for the widespread lynchings of African Americans in this country. We were a much more religious country then so I guess it is the fault of religion. I think a fairly good case can be made for religion being responsible for women not being allowed to own property or vote though lol. "The science is clear"!? Where is the science? Correlation is not causation. The poster doesn't need links, s/he has Einstein's instinct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The cultural paradigm since the 1960s has been "if it feels good, do it" of the "Me generation". You don't see how that could lead to increases in consumption, deviancy, and disintegration? None of the families I know believe in or live the philosophy "if it feels good, do it", regardless of where they are on the religious/not spectrum. I'm not convinced that it is "the cultural paradigm" at all, at least where I live. Is it the cultural paradigm where you live, among people you know personally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Up to 95% of Native American deaths were accidental. For you to suggest otherwise is patently false, and it's no wonder you haven't provided a substantive response - because you can't. "Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice." —- Col. John Milton Chivington "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead."-- General Philip Sheridan "As there is no further west, to which they can be removed, the General Government and the people of California appear to have left but one alternative in relation to these remnants of once numerous and powerful tribes: extermination or domestication." ... report from three federal Indian commissioners, January 1851 We killed and scalped Native Americans for money. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/american-colonists-practice-scalping We forcibly removed them from their lands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act Massacred them repeatedly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_of_Native_Americans Forced them on to reservations and starved them: http://www.1849.org/ggg/relocation.html http://www.saokioheritage.com/acrobatfiles/west%20--%20starvation%20winter.pdf Removed their children in an attempt to eliminate their culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools And you have the audacity to claim it wasn't a form of genocide? Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Mental illness, obesity, and incarceration rates in the entire country over time have increased drastically. Again, apples to apples. You're knifing your irrelevant strawman again. So has the manufacture and sale of itunes. Coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 You have not repeatedly mentioned the other factors. Those only came up when you used those as a defense when it was pointed out that many secular societies had lower rates in these areas. You have also presented zero evidence that secularism is a cause of anything. She doesn'nt need pesky evidence, science or logic. "Intuition" is all she needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SadieMarie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 A religious society stresses many moral attributes that suppress deviancy and degeneracy. Look, there's a reason they've been so consistently selected for. Correlation doesn't preclude causation either. Deviancy and degeneracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Mental illness, obesity, and incarceration rates in the entire country over time have increased drastically. Again, apples to apples. You're knifing your irrelevant strawman again. The bolded...you keep using those words. I don't think they mean what you think they mean. If they are increasing at lower rates in more secular states, than there is no correlation with the increase in secularism being the cause. Really, this isn't that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 None of the families I know believe in or live the philosophy "if it feels good, do it", regardless of where they are on the religious/not spectrum. I'm not convinced that it is "the cultural paradigm" at all, at least where I live. Is it the cultural paradigm where you live, among people you know personally? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_generation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie#Ethos_and_characteristics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterculture_of_the_1960s This wasn't a great secret; this is something they promoted themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 "Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice." —- Col. John Milton Chivington "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead."-- General Philip Sheridan "As there is no further west, to which they can be removed, the General Government and the people of California appear to have left but one alternative in relation to these remnants of once numerous and powerful tribes: extermination or domestication." ... report from three federal Indian commissioners, January 1851 We killed and scalped Native Americans for money. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/american-colonists-practice-scalping We forcibly removed them from their lands. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act Massacred them repeatedly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_of_Native_Americans Forced them on to reservations and starved them: http://www.1849.org/ggg/relocation.html http://www.saokioheritage.com/acrobatfiles/west%20--%20starvation%20winter.pdf Removed their children in an attempt to eliminate their culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools And you have the audacity to claim it wasn't a form of genocide? Wow. There was conflict as in all conquest. That said, the numbers don't lie. She doesn'nt need pesky evidence, science or logic. "Intuition" is all she needs. I have plenty of both. On the other hand, you have what exactly? Snark? haha #irony The bolded...you keep using those words. I don't think they mean what you think they mean. If they are increasing at lower rates in more secular states, than there is no correlation with the increase in secularism being the cause. Really, this isn't that hard. No, it just goes to show that there are, wait for it, multiple factors involved. It's not that complicated. In the meantime, you have yet to even address the overall rise across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SadieMarie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_generation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie#Ethos_and_characteristics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterculture_of_the_1960s This wasn't a great secret; this is something they promoted themselves. Damn hippies! They must be the reason I am fat. I think I am getting the hang of this new science lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Damn hippies! They must be the reason I am fat. Another post devoid of substance... Yawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Incarceration and obesity/diabetes rates also strongly correlate with demographic factors. Hispanics and African Americans, for example, are much more likely to be obese and in jail. Those areas also have higher poverty rates, and poverty also correlates with, you guessed it, obesity and incarceration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#mediaviewer/File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/706101 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#mediaviewer/File:U.S._incarceration_rate_by_race_2.gif http://frac.org/initiatives/hunger-and-obesity/are-low-income-people-at-greater-risk-for-overweight-or-obesity/ http://mtbi.asu.edu/downloads/Document8.pdf Yes, and I also found a map that correlated obesity with altitude. So what. Correlation =/ Causation. But the maps say exactly the opposite of what you posit - in every category And what about divorce? You can't say that secular society is to blame for all these issues, when every single one of them actually has less prevalence in areas of the country that are more secular. And your argument about how all of those issues are poverty's and/or minorities' fault doesn't actually align that well when you compare these maps to the other ones: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Yes, and I also found a map that correlated obesity with altitude. So what. Correlation =/ Causation. But the maps say exactly the opposite of what you posit - in every category And what about divorce? You can't say that secular society is to blame for all these issues, when every single one of them actually has less prevalence in areas of the country that are more secular. And your argument about how all of those issues are poverty's and/or minorities' fault doesn't actually align when you compare these maps to the other ones: There is an established direct correlation between the factors I've mentioned. Correlation does not preclude causation either. And again - the increases are across the board, nationwide. It's a cultural problem as well as a demographic/economic one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 There was conflict as in all conquest. That said, the numbers don't lie. I have plenty of both. On the other hand, you have what exactly? Snark? haha No, it just goes to show that there are, wait for it, multiple factors involved. It's not that complicated. In the meantime, you have yet to even address the overall rise across the board. The overall rise? It depends on the issue, Mental illness? Better access to mental health care, less stigma, possible relationship to economic stresses. Also the possibility of over diagnosis or quick decision to prescribe meds when other services may work. Limited to no available data beyond a certain time frame (related completely to lack of access/stigma) makes a true analysis impossible. Incarceration? Demographics, economics, tougher sentencing guidelines, a worthless and totalitarian war on drugs, and a prison industrial complex in need of "clients" to turn a profit. Obesity? Economics and societal changes which have lead to increased caloric intakes and more sedentary lifestyles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 There was conflict as in all conquest. That said, the numbers don't lie. Neither do the quotes, government policies, or massacres I presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) nm Edited June 8, 2014 by ChocolateReignRemix Lose the insult, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The overall rise? It depends on the issue, Mental illness? Better access to mental health care, less stigma, possible relationship to economic stresses. Also the possibility of over diagnosis or quick decision to prescribe meds when other services may work. You're speculating here, but even assuming these reasons are legitimate - they are also evidence of dysfunction! Either way you go you're making my case. Incarceration? Demographics, economics, tougher sentencing guidelines, a worthless and totalitarian war on drugs, and a prison industrial complex in need of "clients" to turn a profit. See the NYT article. Corporate selfishness is a symptom of cultural selfishness and self-indulgence that infected the country after the 1960s. In other words, more evidence of dysfunction. Obesity? Economics and societal changes which have lead to increased caloric intakes and more sedentary lifestyles. Gluttony and sloth were 2 of the 7 deadly sins stigmatized by the Church. Another coincidence is it? I also noticed you failed to provide a single piece of supporting evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) Neither do the quotes, government policies, or massacres I presented. A tiny fraction of the problem. There was fighting on both sides. When people fight, people die. Edited June 8, 2014 by Moderator That was nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 ananemone, you really do need a cookie sandwiched with chocolate cream and covered in a double layer of chocolate. It'll sweeten you up :) Perhaps. Ananemone, So you want to blame my family member's mental health issue for the degradation of society? How about the fact the stigma of mental health issues is finally being broken? How about they don't just ship mentally ill people off to a home now. Have you ever watched programs that show how some of those "facilities" were run - even by good, loving Christians? Do you really think we need to harken back to the good old days of THAT? Divorce? Yup, there's divorce, I'm in the middle of one. How dare you take a situation that is personally painful and was a hard decision to make and turn into a secular vs christian issue. You HAVE NO CLUE what is going on in the lives of people who are making those decisions. Most don't make them lightly. Is my son going to be scared for life because of it? No. As a parent we discuss these issues and he would have been hindered had I stayed in the marriage. My home is not broken, my home is finally getting a good foundation. Have you truly studied some of the atrocities done in this country? Take an American History class, pay special attention to Japanese Internment, tell me those "good christian leaders" did the right thing. Tell me about racial segregation and the fact interracial marriage was outlawed in certain states until the year *I* was born. (I'm 47 if you're curious). The problems you see as increasing have always been around. In history, many of those with issues were shunned or carted off to an institution because of the shame. Don't blame secularism for problems this country has always had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Knock it off, people. You've done a (semi) good job of refraining from personal snark and insults, but it's sliding downhill. Argue issues, not personalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 There is a link between mental illness and broken families, and there's a link between a degenerate, secular culture and family breakdown. Also, since "women's lib" less women are being full-time mothers to their kids. Kids are being neglected and it should come as no surprise that it messes them up in the head. It's not as simple as you might like it to be, but the connections are there. Actually, this website reports on a study that found "Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
songsparrow Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Well, now I see y'all's point that my earlier post could not have been too tangential for this thread. Pass the Tim Tams? A religious society stresses many moral attributes that suppress deviancy and degeneracy. Look, there's a reason they've been so consistently selected for. On this point we will have to agree to disagree. I do not think deviancy (except of the criminal kind) is equivalent to degeneracy. I prefer to welcome and celebrate diversity, creativity and free spiritedness. There is plenty of evidence that people who profess strong religious beliefs behave no more morally than those who do not. The last type of society that I wish to live in is a theocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SadieMarie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Actually, this website reports on a study that found "Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience." That must be from the overall secularization of the country though lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
songsparrow Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Someone mentioned Your Inner Fish way back...you can get the 3hour DVD for free at the HHMI website. Ooh, I think this would be a great way to conclude our current unit on human anatomy - thanks for the link! And I saw from the HHMI website that you can also stream the 3 episodes at PBS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfrumpable. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 If only I could find religion, then I would be skinny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The last type of society that I wish to live in is a theocracy. It also begs the question about how theocratic rule prevents these challenges that defy evidence. If we knew how theocracy works, we'd know which theocracy is most effective. I don't think, for example, Sparta had these troubles, but I don't expect the poster would advocate a Greek pantheistic theocracy. But I don't know, as actual data is rejected in favor of Einstein's instinct, and we can't ask Einstein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 If only I could find religion, then I would be skinny! I think works such that if you could find religion, then *I* would be skinny. So... chop chop, woman! Get thee to church! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SadieMarie Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 If only I could find religion, then I would be skinny! Here you go lol. Do it for all of us! http://www.jesuschristdiet.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 To claim this is somehow negated in humans and instead replaced with a force that has yet to be identified or explored is to reject the claim that science can accurately explain what happens to humans after death. Perhaps. But as I already said, let's discuss the span of known, conscious thought instead, since that is inarguable. :) You were to be explaining how it is that we must impose a religious belief instead of scientific one somewhere down the line. Surely you can think of an example before death, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Perhaps. But as I already said, let's discuss the span of known, conscious thought instead, since that is inarguable. :) You were to be explaining how it is that we must impose a religious belief instead of scientific one somewhere down the line. Surely you can think of an example before death, right? I did. Conscious thought, self-awareness, the mechanics of the brain with regard to one's perceptions and experiences. We can confidently predict what would happen should that brain float up into the atmosphere. We can confidently predict what would happen should that brain be starved of food and water for 40 days. We can confidently predict what would happen should that brain be deprived of all effects that sustain life, sucumbing to the natural fungal and bacterial growth of dark, cool caves in a desert environment. I don't know if your personal faith believes in prayer, or the power of angelic or demonic influences on matter, so I'm hesitant to offer an example you'll dismiss because it's not a belief you hold. The properties of consciousness however, is pretty universal with regard to religion, so that's a relatively safe example in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Ah. So in other words people CAN believe in both their faith, as well as thinking science is correct. If the only variance on this that you can present is after death, then it's irrelevant. After death, those that believe in the Creator will either have the opportunity to meet Him, or they will be just worm-food and won't know the difference anyway. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 There is a very good thread explaining evolution very clearly on the forums. .....It's an excellent explanation and I learned so much from it. It was on the curriculum board and it was AMAZING! I learned so much about evolution and everyone was so gracious and respectful. I really enjoyed that thread too. I was right in the middle of school holidays and had some extra time on my hands to write, write, write. And what a great title! The unscientific American watches a mammal walk into the water and grow fins Ruth in NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The cultural paradigm since the 1960s has been "if it feels good, do it" of the "Me generation". You don't see how that could lead to increases in consumption, deviancy, and disintegration? None of the families I know believe in or live the philosophy "if it feels good, do it", regardless of where they are on the religious/not spectrum. I'm not convinced that it is "the cultural paradigm" at all, at least where I live. Is it the cultural paradigm where you live, among people you know personally? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_generation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie#Ethos_and_characteristics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterculture_of_the_1960s This wasn't a great secret; this is something they promoted themselves. I agree that some folks in the hippie culture in the 60's experimented, for a time, with the idea of "if it feels good, do it". I'm still not at all convinced that now, fifty years later, it is The Cultural Paradigm. Your first link, for example says, "By the mid-1970s, Tom Wolfe and Christopher Lasch were speaking out critically against the culture of narcissism. These criticisms were widely repeated throughout American popular media." Are there a lot of people in your community who actually live their lives by the "feels good" standard? It's certainly not part of my local community's values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Ah. So in other words people CAN believe in both their faith, as well as thinking science is correct. Clearly. If the only variance on this that you can present is after death, then it's irrelevant. No. The variance on this is when one accepts a religious claim that requires faith (belief in the absence of, or contrary to evidence). After death, those that believe in the Creator will either have the opportunity to meet Him, or they will be just worm-food and won't know the difference anyway. :) The claim that after death, consciousness, self-awareness, and memories are unaltered is a religious claim. That belief is held contrary to evidence of organic chemistry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Tim Tam, anyone ? Why not? I do not know what that is but anything is better than continuing to try to read this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Yummy Tim Tams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The claim that after death, consciousness, self-awareness, and memories are unaltered is a religious claim. That belief is held contrary to evidence of organic chemistry.Why would this even matter to an unbeliever, though? Either way, the believer is no longer on this mortal coil, so it's irrelevant. However, I see you've ceded the point of my disagreement with your earlier statement, so its all good :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 However, I see you've ceded the point of my disagreement with your earlier statement, so its all good :) Which point was that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 If only I could find religion, then I would be skinny! How exactly would that work? I'm guessing you'd have to travel from church to church and find the one with all the skinny people, because I'm pretty sure it's not a universal religious thing. It would probably have to be some sort of creepy Stepford church or something. :eek: But let us know if you find it. And make sure they don't have some sort of religious ban on cupcakes, because that's where WTMers draw the line. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 How exactly would that work? I'm guessing you'd have to travel from church to church and find the one with all the skinny people, because I'm pretty sure it's not a universal religious thing. It would probably have to be some sort of creepy Stepford church or something. :eek: But let us know if you find it. And make sure they don't have some sort of religious ban on cupcakes, because that's where WTMers draw the line. :D Pretty sure it is the Church of the Unholy Doughnut. . . . Or would that just make it the Church of the Danish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onceuponatime Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Why would this even matter to an unbeliever, though? Either way, the believer is no longer on this mortal coil, so it's irrelevant. It is very relevant. In fact, it may be one of the most relevant things in this discussion. If there was no belief in an afterlife, no belief in a soul that lives on in some fashion to be punished or rewarded, than there would be no reason for most modern religion. Arguments about origins would not place a high value on the supernatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 You folks are well away from the point of the original discussion now. Move on... Moderator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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