Ask an Orthodox Jew

[YaelAldrich]

You didn't put up pics of the basement shuls or back office shuls or at the rest stop on the way the mountains or Niagara Falls shul/minyan.   :lol:

 

We can pray just about anywhere.  A shul/synagogue can be almost anywhere.  You're just making us look good! :D

[eternalsummer]

Slightly unrelated, but when my grandparents' Reform temple had a split off movement (of which they were part), the new group met for a while in a barbershop of a strip mall.

[eternalsummer]

 

Where was that, if I may ask?

 

We commuted for a while to a shul that had split off from a (then) Reform shul [i believe it is Reconstructionist now), that met in a strip mall until they got space in a building.

(We later lived there, briefly) 

 

It was in Schaumburg, a NW suburb of Chicago. (or around there, anyway - I was 9!)

[eternalsummer]

Ah, too bad :(

 

Although - I was 9 in the early 1990s :)

[Ravin]

As Yael said, the issue is a space that has been set aside/dedicated for worship/religious use by any faith that it would be avodah zarah (idol worship) for a Jew to participate in. (What a convoluted sentence - sorry!)

 

Your follow-up questions points out an assumption neither Yael nor I stated clearly enough: for purposes of evaluating Jewish involvement, Xtianity is not considered a monotheistic religion.

 

I have never had the location of a wedding be an issue - most of the non-Jewish weddings I've been invited to have been on Shabbos, which is intrinsically a deal breaker, but, no I could not attend a wedding in a church sanctuary.

 

I have sadly (may we all only know simchas, happy times) had issues come up with funerals in cases where my (or our family's) presence would be deeply meaningful to the mourner(s). I'll give a few examples:

 

A Catholic funeral: Attending the funeral Mass in the church was not an option, but, after careful consulation with our Rav, we were able to be there for the graveside service and burial.

 

A Quaker funeral: Again, we did not attend the service in the sanctuary, but came to the graveside.

 

A Unitarian Memorial service: There was no public burial component here, the only piece was a memorial (with no religious service) in the Unitarian Fellowship sanctuary. My presence was very important to the mother (a mentor of mine in high school) and my best friend (who had dated her son for several years). The son had committed suicide and everyone was shocked and distraught. I could not enter the sanctuary, but I stood just outside a side door (the place was packed, and I had twin babies with me, so it was possible to do this without making any disruption).

 

Fiddler on the Roof breaks my heart (fond though I am of it) - and I hate that it doesn't show how the daughter who married out left her non-Jewish husband and came back... (in the stories on which the musical was based)... it shows only a steady movement toward assimilation.

I find it slightly amusing that Unitarians don't count as monotheists since from what I understand they are named for their rejection of the doctrine of the trinity. But what you say makes sense in that it is internally consistent. The arrangement I recall at the military chapel I mentioned before jives with that. I have also heard Muslims make the distinction of not counting Christians as monotheists because of the trinity.

 

Thank you again for answering all these questions!

 

If I wanted to take my daughter to a schul as part of a religious studies course, when, generally, would an appropriate time be? And what would we need to know to be respectful of the space while there?

[YaelAldrich]

I find it slightly amusing that Unitarians don't count as monotheists since from what I understand they are named for their rejection of the doctrine of the trinity. But what you say makes sense in that it is internally consistent. The arrangement I recall at the military chapel I mentioned before jives with that. I have also heard Muslims make the distinction of not counting Christians as monotheists because of the trinity.

 

Thank you again for answering all these questions!

 

If I wanted to take my daughter to a schul as part of a religious studies course, when, generally, would an appropriate time be? And what would we need to know to be respectful of the space while there?

 

I would call the synagogue to see if they are the kind that welcome non-Jewish visitors.  Some synagogues have no full time rabbi or staff to make things easier, the synagogue may be a no-nonsense kinda place and people who are not "with it" might feel way out of place.  That said, the easiest time to go would be Friday night. The service is relatively short (about 45 mins - 1 hr), there tends to be a fair amount of singing and you can see most everything except a Torah scroll, tefillin (phylacteries - I'm impressed the dictionary knew this word and that I spelled it correctly!), and tallit (the prayershawls).  To see those, it would take going to a non Sabbath minyan.  I wouldn't recommend this - they usually are speedy and there is no time for chit chat.  

 

Now that I think about it, if you want to take your daughter that might be difficult for you since you now present as male.  You can't sit together.  Hmmmmm....  You could put her on one side of the mechitzah separating men from women and try to have her sit next to someone who can lead her through the service and you likewise

 

ETA The dress code is girls/women wear skirts to at or below the knee when sitting, shirts to the collarbone, sleeves to at least the elbow when bent.  Men wear nice clothes, button down shirts, nice pants, a suit jacket if you have one.  Grab a kippah (headcovering) on the way in the sanctuary.  This doesn't mean that everybody in the synagogue you attend will dress this way, but you won't ruffle any feathers if you do dress this way.

[Redeemed7]

I'm not making myself clear.  This Rabbinic commentary is the stuff we study to understand the Bible and G-d.  My kids learn the stuff I showed you, I do, my husband does, many/most Orthodox Jews have some point in their day where they learn Torah and texts.  There's little that is off-limits - the Kabbalah Eliana talked about upthread.  This is reserved for over 40 year old men who have extensively studied the Torah and commentaries.  Some women don't learn the Oral law/Mishnah/Gemara, but that's really it.  I don't know of any part of the Torah that if off limits (I skim through the adult-ish parts like Tamar or Onan with my kids as I don't really need to talk about incest or prostitution at age 7-9 when we encounter the text [of course in Hebrew])

 

I hope I've been clearer.

We have a weekly Torah portion that we are supposed to study each week (preferably with at least Rashi's commentary &, for guys, in the Aramaic translation as well), none of the Chumash (Penteteuch) is omitted.

 

Megillas Rus (Ruth) is studied in preparation for the (upcoming!) holiday of Shavuos (Pentecost, I think), and is read in shul on Shavuos.

 

Not every part of Tankh (The Jewish Bible) has a slot, but there is none that we mayn't study... quite the contrary.

..

Thank you both for answering my question. I have to admit what I heard before has me a bit perplexed, but I may have misunderstood. Not sure what was meant by it after seeing your answers. I will try to clarify that with them, but it's not someone I have close contact with. That is why I decided to post a question here.

 

Nevertheless, Yael's answer brought up a different question for me. Oh, and I hope my questions don't come across as disrespectful because they are truly just curiosity.

 

Yael, you mentioned that you, as in the Orthodox community I assume, studied the Rabbinic commentary. Is that the Talmud you are referring to? I was curious as to if you can look at the scripture yourself and come up with an interpretation on your own or if your understanding of it has it come from the commentary itself. I guess what I am asking is, are you allowed to make a private, your own, interpretation?

 

I was also wondering if when Eliana mentioned studying Torah specifically if she was referring to the reading of the Torah and the study of the commentary or the study of the written Torah itself? Eliana, when you mentioned Torah does that mean the written or the oral or both? Am I correct in saying the oral Torah is the Rabbinic Commentary/Talmud or have I misunderstood that? The written Torah is generally the first five books, but can sometimes mean the entire Tanakh? I'm just trying to clarify the terminology, so I can understand your answer.

 

Maybe you two were meaning the same thing. I guess it depends on the answer to my question about the commentary. This question is spurred on from something a read from a Catholic poster, not on this forum. She said that they are only to interrupt the Bible through the church. There maybe other Catholics that disagree with this, I'm not sure, and I know that question is for another thread entirely, not trying to address it here. I just hadn't understood that before about Catholicism and so Yael's post made me wonder about Judaism.

 

Thanks again for being willing to answer my questions. I find this thread quite interesting and very educational. I don't feel I would be able to glean this information from someone for fear of feeling I was being intrusive, so I greatly appreciate all the contributors for being so willing to answer questions.

[Karis]

THANK YOU.

 

Is there a no distinction for the Orthodox Jew between the "doctrine" of Christ followers and "Christianity."

 

I ask because Muslims recognize "People of the Book" as those who are devout followers of G-d and as having in common a monotheistic Abrahamic faith. And recognize the existence of Isa (Jesus.)

 

I understand Jesus/Y'shua  to be a Jew. 

 

Does Orthodox Judaism deny he ever lived? Or is the problem that they believe Christians do not worship G-d, but Christ?

 

 

Am I correct in thinking the doctrine of the Trinity is what which causes Orthodox Jews to say Christianity is not monotheistic?

 

How is "echad" defined in D'varim 6?

 

Also, how does an Orthodox Jew reconcile Z'Kharyah 11 and 12?  Specifically, Chapter 11 v.12 and Chapter 12 v. 10?

 

 

I have often wondered about these things.

[YaelAldrich]

I think I will be the heavy and try to be as clear as possible whereas Eliana can remain her gentle and kind self.

 

Jews DON'T believe Jesus was the Son of God, nor part of a trinity with the Holy Spirit (or Ruach Hakodesh as I guess some Christians who love to Hebracize Christian concepts would say), nor the Messiah/Mashiach, nor anything other than perhaps a real person (though perhaps not as well).

 

Please let me repeat:  Jews (and by this I mean all Jews, aside from those poor, misguided souls who have no idea of the trouble they make for their souls) DON'T THINK ABOUT, WONDER ABOUT, WORRY ABOUT, RECONCILE SCRIPTURE IN REFERENCE WITH THE CHRISTIAN GOD JESUS.    Judaism came first; Judaism is NOT Christianity without Jesus.  We DON'T CARE if this or that Scripture (mistranslated and twisted) seems to point to Jesus or anyone else.

 

I described the attributes of the Jewish messiah a long way back in this thread.  Jesus in no way fulfills any of roles of the messiah.  Full stop.

 

I speak for myself here.  I appreciate the posters asking questions about Judaism, I do not appreciate people trying to missionize me.  I won't answer any question I feel falls under that heading.

[Ravin]

Is there any way your conduct with respect to non-Jews is expected to differ based on their religion, other than the sacred space issue? And does it apply to homes as well? Would it be poor hospitality to invite an orthodox Jew into my home because we keep a family altar/shrine?

[YaelAldrich]

Is there any way your conduct with respect to non-Jews is expected to differ based on their religion, other than the sacred space issue? And does it apply to homes as well? Would it be poor hospitality to invite an orthodox Jew into my home because we keep a family altar/shrine?

 

Not really -- I should treat everyone with respect and hope to get that back from the other person. :D

 

I might guess that some Jews might be weirded out if they saw a personal/family shrine, especially since such things tend not to exist here in the US so much.  In every home I have rented in Japan, there has been a niche for a shrine.  Obviously, I don't put stuff there.  We have Japanese friends who do.  My daughter (7) was intrigued by her friends' worship at her shrine;  We didn't make a big deal of it. 

[Laurie4b]

Just wanted to say that in reading through this thread, I thought aiui was a Jewish word until I looked it up on Google and found it was an internet acronymn. :blush:

[milovany]

Just wanted to say that in reading through this thread, I thought aiui was a Jewish word until I looked it up on Google and found it was an internet acronymn. :blush:

 

I did too, at first!  :D  I'd not seen that one before.  Someone somewhat explained it a little bit further on but it was buried within a conversation. 

[ktgrok]

ok, i thought I was reasonably informed, but I'm getting confused. 

 

Torah I understand. 

 

Talmud and Gemmerah I'm having trouble with..what's the difference?

[YaelAldrich]

Just wanted to say that in reading through this thread, I thought aiui was a Jewish word until I looked it up on Google and found it was an internet acronymn. :blush:

A LOT of our words might be either or, so I doubt you are alone...

 

:D

[Karis]

Okaaay, um... thank you?

 

That was very strongly worded.  You really CAN put the fangs away.  I don't care to change or challenge your views.  Still want to understand  but if it breeds hostility...   (Just a lot of emotion for what you consider a non-issue.)   But I understand. Fully.

I think I will be the heavy and try to be as clear as possible whereas Eliana can remain her gentle and kind self.

 

Jews DON'T believe Jesus was the Son of God, nor part of a trinity with the Holy Spirit (or Ruach Hakodesh as I guess some Christians who love to Hebracize Christian concepts would say), nor the Messiah/Mashiach, nor anything other than perhaps a real person (though perhaps not as well).

 

Please let me repeat:  Jews (and by this I mean all Jews, aside from those poor, misguided souls who have no idea of the trouble they make for their souls) DON'T THINK ABOUT, WONDER ABOUT, WORRY ABOUT, RECONCILE SCRIPTURE IN REFERENCE WITH THE CHRISTIAN GOD JESUS.    Judaism came first; Judaism is NOT Christianity without Jesus.  We DON'T CARE if this or that Scripture (mistranslated and twisted) seems to point to Jesus or anyone else.

 

I described the attributes of the Jewish messiah a long way back in this thread.  Jesus in no way fulfills any of roles of the messiah.  Full stop.

 

I speak for myself here.  I appreciate the posters asking questions about Judaism, I do not appreciate people trying to missionize me.  I won't answer any question I feel falls under that heading.

 

[YaelAldrich]

ok, i thought I was reasonably informed, but I'm getting confused. 

 

Torah I understand. 

 

Talmud and Gemmerah I'm having trouble with..what's the difference?

Talmud is the label for the part of the oral law that incorporates the Mishnah (the Oral Law we believe Moshe/Moses got from G-d at the same time as he got the Written Law (i.e., Torah)) and the Gemara (which is the rabbinic exegesis of the Mishnah). These two are the heart (literally and figuratively) of the page of Talmud (BTW, there are two Talmuds, the Bavli (Babylonian) and the Yerushalmi (Jerusalem), from two different schools of Jewish learning; there are similar parts but also some different tractates). Surrounding it are Rashi (yes, the same Rashi from the Chumash/Torah) on the spine side and Tosafos (Rashi's students) on the outside.  There are various other smaller commentaries surrounding those.

 

HTH (Hope That Helps)!

[YaelAldrich]

THANK YOU.

 

Is there a no distinction for the Orthodox Jew between the "doctrine" of Christ followers and "Christianity."

 

I ask because Muslims recognize "People of the Book" as those who are devout followers of G-d and as having in common a monotheistic Abrahamic faith. And recognize the existence of Isa (Jesus.)

 

I understand Jesus/Y'shua  to be a Jew. 

 

Does Orthodox Judaism deny he ever lived? Or is the problem that they believe Christians do not worship G-d, but Christ?

 

 

Am I correct in thinking the doctrine of the Trinity is what which causes Orthodox Jews to say Christianity is not monotheistic?

 

How is "echad" defined in D'varim 6?

 

Also, how does an Orthodox Jew reconcile Z'Kharyah 11 and 12?  Specifically, Chapter 11 v.12 and Chapter 12 v. 10?

 

 

I have often wondered about these things.

 

I don't have my fangs out. Not at all.  See? :D

 

However some of your questions were leading in an inappropriate way (even if you don't know it).  Christians are people who define Jesus as one of the parts of a triune Godhead.  Equal to God.  There is no distinction in my eyes - Christians and their doctrine are the same.  It's not a religion for me ever and maybe OK, maybe not OK for non-Jews.  

 

Muslims can say your Jesus is a nice guy, but obviously not the nicest or the best, otherwise they'd be Christians.  Likewise, you can say that Christians love the people in the Jewish Bible (David, Moses, Joshua) but obviously they weren't the endpoint, otherwise you'd be Jewish.  Subsequent religions can afford to throw a bone to their predecessors, whereas it doesn't work the other way 'round.

 

As we have said before, it is prohibited (for Jews and non-Jews) to worship anything but G-d, nothing is equal to G-d.  You are correct to think the Trinity is why Jews says Christianity is not monotheism.  

 

And last (and why I needed to shout), I don't need to reconcile any Jewish scripture. For what reason would I need to reconcile anything?  I don't believe Jesus to be anybody or anything to me and I don't see him or Cthulhu or the Pastafarian guy in my Bible.  

 

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.  I only wanted to stop a line of questioning that is going to offend the people offering to answer questions about Orthodox Judaism. 

[KungFuPanda]

Why, despite PMing my mailing address, did I not receive Purim cookies? To what agency do I report this offense?

[ktgrok]

Talmud is the label for the part of the oral law that incorporates the Mishnah (the Oral Law we believe Moshe/Moses got from G-d at the same time as he got the Written Law (i.e., Torah)) and the Gemara (which is the rabbinic exegesis of the Mishnah). These two are the heart (literally and figuratively) of the page of Talmud (BTW, there are two Talmuds, the Bavli (Babylonian) and the Yerushalmi (Jerusalem), from two different schools of Jewish learning; there are similar parts but also some different tractates). Surrounding it are Rashi (yes, the same Rashi from the Chumash/Torah) on the spine side and Tosafos (Rashi's students) on the outside.  There are various other smaller commentaries surrounding those.

 

HTH (Hope That Helps)!

 

Yes, that helped hugely! Got it now!

[Katy]

...and one of the odd things about these types of conversations is that you are all coming from your own backgrounds and experience and don't have a context for our worldview - the context many of you have is Xtianity, which shapes your questions and your perceptions, at least initially. What can be hard for me, is encountering , repeatedly, questions based on what appear to me to be distorted readings of my Scriptures - readings I associate with dishonest proselytizing.

 

Intellectually I know that these impressions and questions and readings don't mean anything about your intentions, and it isn't fair that I have a strong visceral reaction to some of them... but the negative legacy of certain attempts to convert us has left scars, for me at least.

 

 

I apologize for those who have hurt you.

 

I'm curious to know what verses you see as distorted, that are associated with "dishonest proselytizing."  I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious which verses Christians might misinterpret.

 

 

[FWIW, we recently discovered that my maternal line ancestry had jewish surnames starting about 5 generations back (we are researching that more), so I am genuinely interested where Christian interpretations might be wrong, but I haven't been exposed to much Hebrew so it's difficult to just find commentaries online...  are there any that are in English?].

[Ipsey]

I apologize for those who have hurt you.

 

I'm curious to know what verses you see as distorted, that are associated with "dishonest proselytizing."  I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious which verses Christians might misinterpret.

 

 

[FWIW, we recently discovered that my maternal line ancestry had jewish surnames starting about 5 generations back (we are researching that more), so I am genuinely interested where Christian interpretations might be wrong, but I haven't been exposed to much Hebrew so it's difficult to just find commentaries online...  are there any that are in English?].

 

There's a downloadable book on Jews for Judaism (.com) (in response to an Evangelical organization whose purpose is to convert Jews) that you can read called "Response to Missionaries".  That will give you some of the background and the verses and how they have always been understood by the Jews.

 

Sorry for butting into the thread, but I find this to be a good source for Jewish perspective that answers Christian misunderstandings.

 

(This from a non-Jew, so . . . what do I know? But rabbi did share the book with me long ago :))  

 

 

[Onceuponatime]

I apologize for those who have hurt you.

 

I'm curious to know what verses you see as distorted, that are associated with "dishonest proselytizing."  I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious which verses Christians might misinterpret.

 

 

[FWIW, we recently discovered that my maternal line ancestry had jewish surnames starting about 5 generations back (we are researching that more), so I am genuinely interested where Christian interpretations might be wrong, but I haven't been exposed to much Hebrew so it's difficult to just find commentaries online...  are there any that are in English?].

 

I'm guessing that a Christian might misinterpret *any* verse, just because they are coming from a particular perspective with particular assumptions. It seems to me that it would be unavoidable, unless the Christian was willing to look at his own faith from an outsider's point of view. It would mean entertaining the possibility that she could be wrong about everything previously believed.

[YaelAldrich]

Why, despite PMing my mailing address, did I not receive Purim cookies? To what agency do I report this offense?

 

 

This is a offence of the highest order!  I will do my due diligence and figure out to whom you must write! It might have to go all the way to Bibi Netanyahu.  :lol:

[YaelAldrich]

There's a downloadable book on Jews for Judaism (.com) (in response to an Evangelical organization whose purpose is to convert Jews) that you can read called "Response to Missionaries".  That will give you some of the background and the verses and how they have always been understood by the Jews.

 

Sorry for butting into the thread, but I find this to be a good source for Jewish perspective that answers Christian misunderstandings.

 

(This from a non-Jew, so . . . what do I know? But rabbi did share the book with me long ago :))  

What Ipsey said.  Even though someone chastised me earlier in the thread about putting up links and not writing out my own message, http://jewsforjudaism.org/ is one of the best places to understand all the tricks Messianic "Jews" and others who wish to draw Jews away from their religion and heritage.  I wouldn't know all the verses that Christians use to try to confuse Jews who don't know their own holy books.  I don't get that far with them. :)  But Jews for Judaism does and for that I am truly thankful.  

[YaelAldrich]

I apologize for those who have hurt you.

 

I'm curious to know what verses you see as distorted, that are associated with "dishonest proselytizing."  I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious which verses Christians might misinterpret.

 

 

[FWIW, we recently discovered that my maternal line ancestry had jewish surnames starting about 5 generations back (we are researching that more), so I am genuinely interested where Christian interpretations might be wrong, but I haven't been exposed to much Hebrew so it's difficult to just find commentaries online...  are there any that are in English?].

 

Please see Ipsey's post.

 

Do you want to do more geneological studies to find out more about your possible Jewish ancestors?

 

If you want to do some more reading about the Jewish response to Christian missionaries, you might to read Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan zt"l (may the memory of the holy one be for a blessing - used when a Jewish rabbi/educator has died) book about The Real Messiah, which is a larger collection of his works The Aryeh Kaplan Anthology http://www.amazon.com/The-Aryeh-Kaplan-Anthology-Illuminating/dp/0899068669/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399640622&sr=8-1&keywords=the+aryeh+kaplan+anthology .  Rabbi Kaplan (and the other authors in this book) goes through through the philosophies of why Jesus cannot and never will be the Jewish Messiah and why Christianity is never right for Jews.

[Library Momma]

I would like to jump in here if I could.  I am a Reform Jew and it is interesting to me to gain first hand insight into Orthodox Judaism.  I have somewhat of an understanding of the Orthodox beliefs and customs but seeing how that is put into place in daily life is very interesting to me, so I say thank you.  

 

I have to say I have grown up in areas with few Jews comparatively.  I have spent my life fielding questions about Judaism and I've rarely ever felt that anyone was trying to convert me.  I also don't live in a part of the country where I think that is as prevalent.  What I do know is that about 90% of those questions were at least somewhat about Jesus and or salvation.

 

Here's my silly analogy: 

 

Imagine a person moving from France to the US.  People meeting him can ask him whatever they would like about France, The culture, the food, the music, and all they ask him is about the Great Wall of China.  Instead of talking about France that person spends time explaining that he is not Chinese.  Now imagine most people he meets asking about the Great Wall of China.  There comes a point when the person gets frustrated and shouts "I AM NOT CHINESE!"  Asking a Jew about interpretations of the Torah involving Jesus is like asking about the Great Wall of China.

 

 

[Katy]

There's a downloadable book on Jews for Judaism (.com) (in response to an Evangelical organization whose purpose is to convert Jews) that you can read called "Response to Missionaries".  That will give you some of the background and the verses and how they have always been understood by the Jews.

 

Sorry for butting into the thread, but I find this to be a good source for Jewish perspective that answers Christian misunderstandings.

 

(This from a non-Jew, so . . . what do I know? But rabbi did share the book with me long ago :))  

 

 

What Ipsey said.  Even though someone chastised me earlier in the thread about putting up links and not writing out my own message, http://jewsforjudaism.org/ is one of the best places to understand all the tricks Messianic "Jews" and others who wish to draw Jews away from their religion and heritage.  I wouldn't know all the verses that Christians use to try to confuse Jews who don't know their own holy books.  I don't get that far with them. :)  But Jews for Judaism does and for that I am truly thankful.  

 

Thanks...  I will definitely check that out!

 

 

Please see Ipsey's post.

 

Do you want to do more geneological studies to find out more about your possible Jewish ancestors?

 

If you want to do some more reading about the Jewish response to Christian missionaries, you might to read Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan zt"l (may the memory of the holy one be for a blessing - used when a Jewish rabbi/educator has died) book about The Real Messiah, which is a larger collection of his works The Aryeh Kaplan Anthology http://www.amazon.com/The-Aryeh-Kaplan-Anthology-Illuminating/dp/0899068669/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399640622&sr=8-1&keywords=the+aryeh+kaplan+anthology .  Rabbi Kaplan (and the other authors in this book) goes through through the philosophies of why Jesus cannot and never will be the Jewish Messiah and why Christianity is never right for Jews.

 

Yes.  We seem to have hit a dead-end in civil war era New York, but we're definitely working on the genealogy. My sister also had one of those ancestry.com DNA tests and it showed some potential jewish DNA, which was interesting because we expected British Isles, German, and Native American.

 

Thanks, I'll check out the Kaplan Anthology too!

[Ravin]

Here's a question inspired by Katy's genealogy. Does a person who has found maternal-line Jewish ancestry and wishes to return to the fold go through the same conversion process as someone who converts without that ancestry? Or are the formalities/ritual aspect different while the educational/acculturation aspect is similar? Does it make a difference if the family converted away 200 years ago vs. 2 generations ago?

 

Overall, I find the way Jews have been bound together with religion as cultural glue to keep you distinct from others around you and on community with each other for not just centuries but millennia despite being dispersed and left without sovereignty over your homeland for so long. You are a model for how to maintain a distinct cultural identity in a world becoming increasingly homogenized into a corporate-driven mono-culture.

[YaelAldrich]

Here's a question inspired by Katy's genealogy. Does a person who has found maternal-line Jewish ancestry and wishes to return to the fold go through the same conversion process as someone who converts without that ancestry? Or are the formalities/ritual aspect different while the educational/acculturation aspect is similar? Does it make a difference if the family converted away 200 years ago vs. 2 generations ago?

 

Overall, I find the way Jews have been bound together with religion as cultural glue to keep you distinct from others around you and on community with each other for not just centuries but millennia despite being dispersed and left without sovereignty over your homeland for so long. You are a model for how to maintain a distinct cultural identity in a world becoming increasingly homogenized into a corporate-driven mono-culture.

 

If it is a clear and unbroken mother to mother transmission (i.e., no breaks, no transmission through a male relative), then person doesn't necessarily have to convert, but many rabbis suggest a person with this status could be asked to under a gerus l'chumra (a conversion in case of doubt), which would include learning more about Judaism and a dip in a mikvah (a body of water), and a circumcision in case any males are not circumcised.  Some rabbis do not require this.

 

Actually, it's quite interesting Ravin that you say that.  The Dalai Lama also alludes to the Jewish people's abilities to stay unbroken throughout history.  However, we've never been a large people (aside from right before the slavery in Egypt), much smaller than how rationally the numbers should add up.  What's going on?  Well, in every generation there are mitigating factors that prevent us from growing to our full potential (number-wise), whether external (people killing us) or internal (assimilation).  In the good times, it tends to be assimilation (like now) and in bad times, it's both external and internal.  We have a Midrash that says that 4/5 of the Jews in Egypt didn't leave when Moses did.  Currently we have intermarriage rates of over 50% in the US and if you exclude the NYC metro area, it is actually closer to 80%.  IMHO, we aren't doing so well. :( 

[Katy]

I'm really touched by the detailed answers to my questions above.  Thank you. It's going to take some detailed study, and I feel like the day is getting away from me.  Plus I want to go try out the new gluten-free items at Aldi's.  :coolgleamA:

 

Random silly question - it seems like MANY of the jewish food items I've seen are made from flour.  I'm allergic to wheat, and I've basically banned most gluten from the house  (break out in hives allergy here, not celiac).  If I did look seriously at embracing my (possible) maternal ancestry, wouldn't that complicate things a bit?  What do gluten-intolerant jews do regarding dietary laws? 

 

Some of the students in my college dorms were jewish.  Most of them had been raised vegetarian with the idea that it was easier to keep dietary laws, and it was less cruel than factory farms in general. They did eat cheese pizza.  At the time I was vegetarian so it was often just me & them choosing plain cheese.  Are any of you vegetarian too, or are you more strict than that?

[YaelAldrich]

I'm really touched by the detailed answers to my questions above.  Thank you. It's going to take some detailed study, and I feel like the day is getting away from me.  Plus I want to go try out the new gluten-free items at Aldi's.  :coolgleamA:

 

Random silly question - it seems like MANY of the jewish food items I've seen are made from flour.  I'm allergic to wheat, and I've basically banned most gluten from the house  (break out in hives allergy here, not celiac).  If I did look seriously at embracing my (possible) maternal ancestry, wouldn't that complicate things a bit?  What do gluten-intolerant jews do regarding dietary laws? 

 

Some of the students in my college dorms were jewish.  Most of them had been raised vegetarian with the idea that it was easier to keep dietary laws, and it was less cruel than factory farms in general. They did eat cheese pizza.  At the time I was vegetarian so it was often just me & them choosing plain cheese.  Are any of you vegetarian too, or are you more strict than that?

 

Enjoy the GF stuff!

 

Actually, it's funny, I send my GF friends to the store around Passover time to get GF foods before we buy them out.  During Passover, many of the kosher for Passover foods in stores are GF -- cookie, cakes, candy, croutons, and lots of other stuff.

 

Jewish law emphatically states that you must take care of yourself.  There are many, many GF Jews so they don't eat G containing things like bread.  They eat what they can (obviously kosher!) and leave the rest.

 

Here is a easy to understand article on keeping kosher.  http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm .  As an Orthodox Jew, I keep strictly kosher in the house as well as out of the house, so I would only eat pizza from a kosher certified restaurant or store.  I'm not a vegetarian.  There are vegetarian Orthodox Jews, but I don't think any more percentage wise than the general population.  I actually love fake meat on my pizzas! :) 

[Redeemed7]

Eliana, thank you for replying so thoroughly to my questions about how you study your scriptures along with what you mean by written and oral Torah among my many other questions. Your answer was very informative and I appreciate all the time you took to answer it for me. Yael and yourself have no clue who I am yet you graciously spend your time answering my questions.

 

I would like to address some tensions that have developed. I myself haven't addressed this thread as a debate form, but as an informative one. I do realize though that sometimes when we are passionate about our beliefs it is hard to keep from sharing our views. I am also very passionate, but am trying to be very respectful with my questions. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would venture to say that it's more passion than disrespect for your beliefs. I can however see how you and the Jewish community as a whole are sensitive to questions that seem to present as criticism from Christians.

 

As a Christian myself, I can be honest and say that for a long time I thought it was the Catholics that persecuted the Jews. Through an intensive investigation of Church history I have come to realize that it just isn't the case. I now see that church anti-Semitism has rained for century upon century even in non-Catholic circles. I can truly understand how the long history of the church declaring sentiments like the blessings are for the church and the curses are for the Jews has put a huge wedge between Christians and Jews. That doesn't breed much love or respect between differing beliefs. All that not to mention Martin Luther's unadulterated hatred for your people. How that line of hatred led to the atrocities that were inflicted upon Jews during the Holocost truly disturbs my soul. When I found out the things he promulgated I wept. A lot of Christian circles exalt Martin Luther while burying his anti-Semitism. It baffles my mind.

 

I realize that even without Martin Luther and the rest the the anti-Semitism that has occurred throughout history, you still wouldn't be accepting Yeshua as your Messiah. Nevertheless, perhaps there could be less skepticism when Christians try to express love for the Jewish people. How could that be trusted based on history. I am sure that has left a lot of scars.

 

I want you to know (Eliana, Yael and the whole Jewish community) that from the bottom of my heart I sincerely apologize for the injustices that have been visited upon the Jewish community throughout the ages in the name of being followers of Jesus. That is not in the name of the God I know nor is it what is taught in the scriptures I revere. It is far from it.

 

Also know, that the Christians I know (of course I can't speak for everyone that wears that label) love the Jewish community. I pray for you and the peace of Jerusalem. I'm not even sure that is a good thing to you, but it does come from a loving place. And I completely understand how it seems impossible to sift out true love and compassion even when it is trying to be shown.

 

With sincerest apologies & love to you and yours,

 

Suzanne

 

I realize this is your Shabbat, so you won't reply today. You may reply when or if you want to; however, no reply is necessary.

[ficbot]

I have a question :) I am a conservative Jew and engaged to someone who grew up on the reform side. One of the things which has stopped him from going further was that he was a kidney transplant recipient and perceived some prejudice from a handful of more observant Jews on the issue of organ donation. i guess he was told by someone that he was not really a Jew anymore because he received a donor kidney from a non-Jewish person, and he was told his dad could not have a proper Jewish burial because when his first kidney failed, he got a second one from his dad, and so his dad is not 'complete' now or something...

 

My mother's rabbi, who is a conservative rabbi, was horrified to hear this story. He said that even the Orthodox community has softened their stance on organ donation, that saving a life is such a high mitzvah that it supersedes everything else, that a rabbi would certainly accord both my guy and his dad full Jewish honours etc. 

 

But I think the incident made a huge mark on him, and he has resisted doing too much Jewish stuff. I am just wondering how prevalent an attitude you think the one he encountered is...

[YaelAldrich]

I have a question :) I am a conservative Jew and engaged to someone who grew up on the reform side. One of the things which has stopped him from going further was that he was a kidney transplant recipient and perceived some prejudice from a handful of more observant Jews on the issue of organ donation. i guess he was told by someone that he was not really a Jew anymore because he received a donor kidney from a non-Jewish person, and he was told his dad could not have a proper Jewish burial because when his first kidney failed, he got a second one from his dad, and so his dad is not 'complete' now or something...

 

My mother's rabbi, who is a conservative rabbi, was horrified to hear this story. He said that even the Orthodox community has softened their stance on organ donation, that saving a life is such a high mitzvah that it supersedes everything else, that a rabbi would certainly accord both my guy and his dad full Jewish honours etc. 

 

But I think the incident made a huge mark on him, and he has resisted doing too much Jewish stuff. I am just wondering how prevalent an attitude you think the one he encountered is...

 

 

My answer is anyone who said that was pretty darn dumb and ignorant to boot.  Perhaps they needed a brain transplant.   :laugh:

 

Here is one of several Orthodox Jewish organizations to help people specifically get kidney transplants http://www.life-renewal.org/ .  There are several rabbis that give rabbinic authorization to give and receive kidneys that are super big names in the Orthodox Jewish world  http://www.life-renewal.org/content/rabbinic-endorsments.   I see ads looking for kidneys from this and other organizations in the Orthodox Jewish newspapaers every week (unfortunately).  

 

There is however a difference of opinion about non-living transplants (heart, lungs) as there is a difference of opinion as to when a person is dead according to the halacha (Jewish law).  Some say it is brain death, some say the heart has to stop beating.  You can't harvest those organs once the heart stops beating, but those who say death is when the heart stops beating, say that people are in a sense "killing" the donor.  We cannot kill anyone, even to save our own life, so there is an argument about organ donation, but certainly NOT live kidney transplants.

 

I wish your fiance well, only health and happiness and lots of love from you.  Mazel tov on our upcoming wedding!  Please tell him not every Orthodox Jew is knowledgeable.  We're only human, but making someone suffer needlessly ,is a big fat no-no and I apologize for that. 

[YaelAldrich]

Eliana, thank you for replying so thoroughly to my questions about how you study your scriptures along with what you mean by written and oral Torah among my many other questions. Your answer was very informative and I appreciate all the time you took to answer it for me. Yael and yourself have no clue who I am yet you graciously spend your time answering my questions.

 

I would like to address some tensions that have developed. I myself haven't addressed this thread as a debate form, but as an informative one. I do realize though that sometimes when we are passionate about our beliefs it is hard to keep from sharing our views. I am also very passionate, but am trying to be very respectful with my questions. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would venture to say that it's more passion than disrespect for your beliefs. I can however see how you and the Jewish community as a whole are sensitive to questions that seem to present as criticism from Christians.

 

As a Christian myself, I can be honest and say that for a long time I thought it was the Catholics that persecuted the Jews. Through an intensive investigation of Church history I have come to realize that it just isn't the case. I now see that church anti-Semitism has rained for century upon century even in non-Catholic circles. I can truly understand how the long history of the church declaring sentiments like the blessings are for the church and the curses are for the Jews has put a huge wedge between Christians and Jews. That doesn't breed much love or respect between differing beliefs. All that not to mention Martin Luther's unadulterated hatred for your people. How that line of hatred led to the atrocities that were inflicted upon Jews during the Holocost truly disturbs my soul. When I found out the things he promulgated I wept. A lot of Christian circles exalt Martin Luther while burying his anti-Semitism. It baffles my mind.

 

I realize that even without Martin Luther and the rest the the anti-Semitism that has occurred throughout history, you still wouldn't be accepting Yeshua as your Messiah. Nevertheless, perhaps there could be less skepticism when Christians try to express love for the Jewish people. How could that be trusted based on history. I am sure that has left a lot of scars.

 

I want you to know (Eliana, Yael and the whole Jewish community) that from the bottom of my heart I sincerely apologize for the injustices that have been visited upon the Jewish community throughout the ages in the name of being followers of Jesus. That is not in the name of the God I know nor is it what is taught in the scriptures I revere. It is far from it.

 

Also know, that the Christians I know (of course I can't speak for everyone that wears that label) love the Jewish community. I pray for you and the peace of Jerusalem. I'm not even sure that is a good thing to you, but it does come from a loving place. And I completely understand how it seems impossible to sift out true love and compassion even when it is trying to be shown.

 

With sincerest apologies & love to you and yours,

 

Suzanne

 

I realize this is your Shabbat, so you won't reply today. You may reply when or if you want to; however, no reply is necessary.

 

Dear Suzanne, now that Shabbos is over for me (Eliana has a couple more hours to go), I can say thank you very much from what I can see is a heartfelt and well thought out apology.  It's funny though; I don't really take offence from the anti-Semitism you mentioned per say.  I mean I do not want people to be anti-Semitic, of course.  It's to be expected actually.  Here is a great explanation of why we have anti-Semitism from an Orthodox Jewish source http://www.aish.com/sem/wtj/ .  If you have the time to listen/read a while, you'll see it isn't unexpected.  

 

I thank you for your prayers  and all Christian's prayers for the Jews and for Israel.  G-d knows your hearts and knows you have love for His people and like the Bible says, those who love His people, will be blessed.  :grouphug:

 

If you want to know what gets my goat (and has gotten my goat in this thread) is that Christians who try to convert Jews have to deceive us in order to convert us.  If a Christian came up to me and said Jesus is the best thing since sliced bread, he is good and kind and loves each and every one of us and so forth and so on and that I should convert (re-vert?) OR say that there is hellfire and damnation if I don't become a believer and you want to save my eternal soul, that to me is an honest and forthright way to convince me to convert.  But that's not how it works when most/all Christians want to convert a Jew.  It's not ever put forth that way because the Christian knows (subconsciously or consciously) that Jews have never believed in Jesus as a Messiah.  In generations past, we have had to give up our lives to resist conversion tactics (i.e., convert or die).  A Christian has to couch their tactics in falsehoods and obfuscation.  Tell a Jew he isn't converting; he's becoming fulfilled or completed.  Don't tell him he has to put up a big cross in his worship space; leave up the magen david, wear a tallis and kippa, eat challah not Wonder bread (that's for Gentiles!), rye bread with pastrami and pickles, mustard, not mayo (that's for Gentiles!).  Don't use the term New Testament, call it the Brit Chadasha.  Don't call him Jesus, call him Y'shua.  Nobody makes a group called Moslems for Isa (Jesus), right?  Why don't Christians do this stuff to, I don't know, Muslims or Buddhists or whoever?  Just the Jews.  Sigh.  Why do Christians have to take our Bible mistranslate it and then shove it back into our faces, asking us why can't we just see that it clearly says virgin (when it doesn't) in Isaiah 53 or the other verses that are upthread.  Those of us with a good background can laugh it off but over 80 percent of Jews don't have that background and don't know any better.  Don't lie Christians, you're supposed to be salt and light.  I know you have to want and try to convert everyone; that's cool, that's part of your religion.  But cut out the lies; that's not how Jesus rolled! 

[Ameena]

I have a couple more questions, partially inspired by comments upthread :) I am coming at this from a Muslim POV so forgive any errors / misconceptions.

 

I see from the wonderful pics posted that men & women are separate in services. I know in some Mosques, the women's section is not equal to the mens. Often it's in a basement / upstairs / other out of the way place & not as well kept as the men's section. Sometimes there isn't a view of the Imam - you're either listening through a screen or watching it via a TV. Or there isn't a section for sisters at all {especially true in very small masjids}. Does this occur in Jewish places of worship as well? And if so how have Jewish women dealt with this?

 

 

And this is totally frivolous, but does anyone on this thread that keeps kosher know of a source online for a kosher flavored Jello mix? I've been hunting & hunting & can't find any. I miss some of my old family recipes that use jello & marshmallows. The marshmallows I can find ones made from fish gelatin locally sometimes around passover, but I haven't been able to find Jello :( It's the one thing I really miss since we cut out pork products & started eating more Halal.

[Redeemed7]

Dear Suzanne, now that Shabbos is over for me (Eliana has a couple more hours to go), I can say thank you very much from what I can see is a heartfelt and well thought out apology. It's funny though; I don't really take offence from the anti-Semitism you mentioned per say. I mean I do not want people to be anti-Semitic, of course. It's to be expected actually. Here is a great explanation of why we have anti-Semitism from an Orthodox Jewish source http://www.aish.com/sem/wtj/ . If you have the time to listen/read a while, you'll see it isn't unexpected.

 

I thank you for your prayers and all Christian's prayers for the Jews and for Israel. G-d knows your hearts and knows you have love for His people and like the Bible says, those who love His people, will be blessed. :grouphug:

 

If you want to know what gets my goat (and has gotten my goat in this thread) is that Christians who try to convert Jews have to deceive us in order to convert us. If a Christian came up to me and said Jesus is the best thing since sliced bread, he is good and kind and loves each and every one of us and so forth and so on and that I should convert (re-vert?) OR say that there is hellfire and damnation if I don't become a believer and you want to save my eternal soul, that to me is an honest and forthright way to convince me to convert. But that's not how it works when most/all Christians want to convert a Jew. It's not ever put forth that way because the Christian knows (subconsciously or consciously) that Jews have never believed in Jesus as a Messiah. In generations past, we have had to give up our lives to resist conversion tactics (i.e., convert or die). A Christian has to couch their tactics in falsehoods and obfuscation. Tell a Jew he isn't converting; he's becoming fulfilled or completed. Don't tell him he has to put up a big cross in his worship space; leave up the magen david, wear a tallis and kippa, eat challah not Wonder bread (that's for Gentiles!), rye bread with pastrami and pickles, mustard, not mayo (that's for Gentiles!). Don't use the term New Testament, call it the Brit Chadasha. Don't call him Jesus, call him Y'shua. Nobody makes a group called Moslems for Isa (Jesus), right? Why don't Christians do this stuff to, I don't know, Muslims or Buddhists or whoever? Just the Jews. Sigh. Why do Christians have to take our Bible mistranslate it and then shove it back into our faces, asking us why can't we just see that it clearly says virgin (when it doesn't) in Isaiah 53 or the other verses that are upthread. Those of us with a good background can laugh it off but over 80 percent of Jews don't have that background and don't know any better. Don't lie Christians, you're supposed to be salt and light. I know you have to want and try to convert everyone; that's cool, that's part of your religion. But cut out the lies; that's not how Jesus rolled!

Thank you for your reply. I see you feel very put upon by many Christians you have encountered. I am sincerely sorry for any mistreatment that you may have had visited upon you. I agree that people should be upfront about their intentions.

 

I have never been in enough contact with any Jews to even try to convert any. I wouldn't put it that way, but I see that is how you feel based on experience. If I felt it appropriate, then I'd share who I know Yeshua to be and they (anyone not just someone Jewish) would have to make up their own mind. I think we'd all love for everyone to share our beliefs. We wouldn't hold them if we didn't think they were correct. But, I also know that not everyone will agree with me and that is ok. Christianity should never be forced upon or seemed pressured. At the end, the people involved should be able to leave the discussion with respect for each other even if they will never share the same belief system. It is not alright to force your beliefs upon someone else. No mater how you do it. Whether it be by sword, manipulation or oppression. If you introduce it and they want to listen, then great. If they don't and you persist, then you're only going to make an enemy.

 

I can't answer all your questions about why Christians do things this way or that way. Honestly, I didn't understand a few of your issues. Not that they aren't real. I just didn't follow what you meant exactly because I have no basis for your line of thinking. You're saying some Christians are telling Jews they should or shouldn't eat wonder bread? :) From your experience are they telling you to stop being Jewish in a sense or keep practicing just throw in some Christian stuff here and there along with it? There are more varieties of Christians, then there are Jews. There are many people that like to state they are a follower of Yeshua, but you couldn't tell it from their actions. We are an imperfect people.

 

I'm not sure what your referring to with don't lie Christians? Are you meaning with presenting different interpretations of verses or lying by being deceptive in their "conversion tactics" or is there more to it I missed?

 

I'd love to just call him Yeshua (I see you leave out the e. Is there a difference?) and I do often. I wasn't sure if that would be insulting to you to use the Hebrew. Another reason I don't all the time is some Christian don't know who you are referring to and others might think you are in the secret name society. But, I agree with you if you are wanting to tell Jews that Yeshua is their Jewish Messiah, it falls flat when He is presented with a gentile name. I also think a lot of the Jewishness has been stripped from our scriptures. Why say it is the book of James when it should be Jacob and on and on. Most Christians would have no clue what the Brit Chadasha was. They'd go huh? Is that a direct translation to mean New Testament? I believe all those things have been done again to strip the Jewishness from the Brit Chadasha all in the name of replacement theology. I think it would be hard to witness to a Jew with out having a lot of Jewish understanding. It would be easy to look at a New Testament and wonder why that had anything to do with you.

 

Anyway, I will let you get back to your thread topic. I didn't mean to derail it. I do have more underailed questions. I'll save them for later.

 

Oh, and I didn't mean to imply that there are no Jews around here. I live in a small town, so my population base is small. I have gone to a Passover Seder, but that was put on by Messianic Jews. Well, I'm not sure if they were Messianic or what they call themselves. My husband and I wanted to attend a Seder and the only Jewish community putting one on I knew of didn't allow non-Jews to attend, so we just found one. We hadn't been to it before. I have no idea of how they worship. I'm not sure if it looks anything like what you would do or not. This also wasn't in their meeting place, so I didn't get to observe anything.

 

Sorry for the long reply. Thank you for being so gracious with yours.

 

Edited because I realized that I said "your" scriptures had the Jewishness stripped when I meant "our" scriptures. I didn't want anyone to misunderstand.

[Ravin]

Ameenah, how about this?

 

http://store.veganessentials.com/mobile/simply-delish-sugar-free-vegan-jel-dessert-p4162.aspx

[ktgrok]

Dear Suzanne, now that Shabbos is over for me (Eliana has a couple more hours to go), I can say thank you very much from what I can see is a heartfelt and well thought out apology.  It's funny though; I don't really take offence from the anti-Semitism you mentioned per say.  I mean I do not want people to be anti-Semitic, of course.  It's to be expected actually.  Here is a great explanation of why we have anti-Semitism from an Orthodox Jewish source http://www.aish.com/sem/wtj/ .  If you have the time to listen/read a while, you'll see it isn't unexpected.  

 

I thank you for your prayers  and all Christian's prayers for the Jews and for Israel.  G-d knows your hearts and knows you have love for His people and like the Bible says, those who love His people, will be blessed.  :grouphug:

 

If you want to know what gets my goat (and has gotten my goat in this thread) is that Christians who try to convert Jews have to deceive us in order to convert us.  If a Christian came up to me and said Jesus is the best thing since sliced bread, he is good and kind and loves each and every one of us and so forth and so on and that I should convert (re-vert?) OR say that there is hellfire and damnation if I don't become a believer and you want to save my eternal soul, that to me is an honest and forthright way to convince me to convert.  But that's not how it works when most/all Christians want to convert a Jew.  It's not ever put forth that way because the Christian knows (subconsciously or consciously) that Jews have never believed in Jesus as a Messiah.  In generations past, we have had to give up our lives to resist conversion tactics (i.e., convert or die).  A Christian has to couch their tactics in falsehoods and obfuscation.  Tell a Jew he isn't converting; he's becoming fulfilled or completed.  Don't tell him he has to put up a big cross in his worship space; leave up the magen david, wear a tallis and kippa, eat challah not Wonder bread (that's for Gentiles!), rye bread with pastrami and pickles, mustard, not mayo (that's for Gentiles!).  Don't use the term New Testament, call it the Brit Chadasha.  Don't call him Jesus, call him Y'shua.  Nobody makes a group called Moslems for Isa (Jesus), right?  Why don't Christians do this stuff to, I don't know, Muslims or Buddhists or whoever?  Just the Jews.  Sigh.  Why do Christians have to take our Bible mistranslate it and then shove it back into our faces, asking us why can't we just see that it clearly says virgin (when it doesn't) in Isaiah 53 or the other verses that are upthread.  Those of us with a good background can laugh it off but over 80 percent of Jews don't have that background and don't know any better.  Don't lie Christians, you're supposed to be salt and light.  I know you have to want and try to convert everyone; that's cool, that's part of your religion.  But cut out the lies; that's not how Jesus rolled! 

 

first, I agree with you, to a certain extent. But to explain why they do it this way, remember, Jesus, according to our tradition WAS Jewish. That's why the drive to incorporate Jewish customs and not Muslim or Buddhist. Because he wasn't Muslim or Buddhist, so there is no connection. 

 

As for saying Christians are lying about the translations, that's harsh when you stop to think that they/we BELIEVE what we are saying. I get that it had/has a meaning for the Jews, but we believe it also has/had another meaning, on top of that, that is only understood in the context of Christianity. So in that case they are not purposely lying, that is truly what they believe. Hopefully that clarifies and makes it less offensive. (and perhaps will prevent hurt feelings, as personally, being told my beliefs are a lie is pretty offensive, but this is your thread, so I don't have the right to get upset.)

[Ipsey]

Dear Suzanne, now that Shabbos is over for me (Eliana has a couple more hours to go), I can say thank you very much from what I can see is a heartfelt and well thought out apology.  It's funny though; I don't really take offence from the anti-Semitism you mentioned per say.  I mean I do not want people to be anti-Semitic, of course.  It's to be expected actually.  Here is a great explanation of why we have anti-Semitism from an Orthodox Jewish source http://www.aish.com/sem/wtj/ .  If you have the time to listen/read a while, you'll see it isn't unexpected.  

 

I thank you for your prayers  and all Christian's prayers for the Jews and for Israel.  G-d knows your hearts and knows you have love for His people and like the Bible says, those who love His people, will be blessed.  :grouphug:

 

If you want to know what gets my goat (and has gotten my goat in this thread) is that Christians who try to convert Jews have to deceive us in order to convert us.  If a Christian came up to me and said Jesus is the best thing since sliced bread, he is good and kind and loves each and every one of us and so forth and so on and that I should convert (re-vert?) OR say that there is hellfire and damnation if I don't become a believer and you want to save my eternal soul, that to me is an honest and forthright way to convince me to convert.  But that's not how it works when most/all Christians want to convert a Jew.  It's not ever put forth that way because the Christian knows (subconsciously or consciously) that Jews have never believed in Jesus as a Messiah.  In generations past, we have had to give up our lives to resist conversion tactics (i.e., convert or die).  A Christian has to couch their tactics in falsehoods and obfuscation.  Tell a Jew he isn't converting; he's becoming fulfilled or completed.  Don't tell him he has to put up a big cross in his worship space; leave up the magen david, wear a tallis and kippa, eat challah not Wonder bread (that's for Gentiles!), rye bread with pastrami and pickles, mustard, not mayo (that's for Gentiles!).  Don't use the term New Testament, call it the Brit Chadasha.  Don't call him Jesus, call him Y'shua.  Nobody makes a group called Moslems for Isa (Jesus), right?  Why don't Christians do this stuff to, I don't know, Muslims or Buddhists or whoever?  Just the Jews.  Sigh.  Why do Christians have to take our Bible mistranslate it and then shove it back into our faces, asking us why can't we just see that it clearly says virgin (when it doesn't) in Isaiah 53 or the other verses that are upthread.  Those of us with a good background can laugh it off but over 80 percent of Jews don't have that background and don't know any better.  Don't lie Christians, you're supposed to be salt and light.  I know you have to want and try to convert everyone; that's cool, that's part of your religion.  But cut out the lies; that's not how Jesus rolled! 

 

Just to add something here, there are Christian groups who do try to convert Muslims in much the same way they try to convert the Jews. I had friends growing up who lived in Indonesia and other S.E. Asian countries who were trained to convert Muslims to Christian, but how to maintain their Muslim customs in some ways, while thinking of them with different meanings. 

 

It was a way of helping Muslims to convert without losing jobs, family, or being killed. There were entire segments of the evangelistic group I was with that was devoted to "re-teaching" Islam to Muslims to make them Christians, essentially.

 

However, since it is more dangerous for Muslims to convert (in general) than Jews, these efforts were (and are) much less obvious. It's a hidden sort of movement. 

 

(Don't want to derail, just food for thought.)

[KarenNC]

And this is totally frivolous, but does anyone on this thread that keeps kosher know of a source online for a kosher flavored Jello mix? I've been hunting & hunting & can't find any. I miss some of my old family recipes that use jello & marshmallows. The marshmallows I can find ones made from fish gelatin locally sometimes around passover, but I haven't been able to find Jello :( It's the one thing I really miss since we cut out pork products & started eating more Halal.

 

This place seems to have flavored kosher jello http://www.koshergelatin.com/--- lime, raspberry, cherry, orange, strawberry, all in regular or sugar free. They look to have marshmallows as well.

[ktgrok]

There are some translation differences that are honest differences of interpretation - we interpret in keeping with the Oral Torah and our mesorah, and Xitians use their sources/authorities/worldview.

 

That doesn't bother me in the least.  (Though having someone tell me that their interpretation is the true one *for my faith* without even bothering to learn how my faith handles interpretation does get a little old)

 

But the prooftexting that some missionaries do isn't honest differences of opinion (though the person peddling it might honestly believe it).  Those twists are distortions, and cherrypicking things out of context, and making translation errors that are either willfully blind, incredibly ignorant, or outright dishonest.

 

...and, given the fact that the whole "messianic' movement was created deliberately to lure in Jews (rather than as a genuine religious belief or expression), it is very, very hard to credit those organizations and their leaders with honest intentions.

 

To be very clear, I recognize that the "messianic" movement has developed, and that there are many sincere Xtians involved in it today who completely sincere and devout.  ...but the roots of the movement aren't there.

 

I also recognize that there are sincere proselytizers out there whose intention is to honestly 'share the word'. 

 

...but I have encountered, either personally or secondhand, too many of the other kind, too many who are playing 'gottcha' games, proof-texting dishonestly (or ignorantly based on dishonest materials they've been given), or are actively trying to lure unsuspecting, uneducated Jewish teens and young adults into thinking they are getting involved in a Jewish organization.

 

It is rare to find total unanimity even amongst Orthodox Jews, but across the spectrum of Jewish belief and observance, from Chassidic, Yeshivish, Modern Orthodox, Conservadox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal, and Humanist Jews there is (aiui) complete unanimity "messianic so called Judaism is Xtianity, not Judaism.

 

...and when they present themselves as such, and I have seen folks on these boards do so, when they share their belief that they are rediscovering their 'Xtian roots' (we have had several intense discussions here about that over the years!), I have nothing but respect for them, however much I might disagree with their interpretations or perspective.

 

...but I have no respect at all for the dishonest methods and tools used by some proselytizers.  I find what they are doing utterly abhorrent and inexcusable.

 

 

ah, I totally misunderstood. I didn't realize you were referring to Messianic movements. I thought you meant ALL Christians. I apologize. 

[Redeemed7]

 

 

Yael, if you have already answered these questions, then you can just say already stated. I have read through the entire thread, but it's been over several days. I wish I had my pre-pregnancy brain back. It's slowly been leaking out the last 15 years. :)

 

You said you've been in different types of Judiasm. What type of Judaism did you follow in your home as a child? I just wonder if that most people stay with the same form they grew up with. Obviously, I realize this is ultimately an individual thing. When you convert from within Judaism is it a easier process than for a gentile? Oh, and do most people convert either from inside or outside of Judaism because of marriage? Or do you have a lot of people from other beliefs converting because they found their truth?

 

When referring to Orthodox, Reform, etc do you say we practice this type, sect, or form? Is saying it one way the proper way or are all acceptable? Trying not to sound rude there also. I would like to refer to it as in the proper way. Is one group significantly more populous or influential in Israel or anywhere else?

[Redeemed7]

I am curious and this question is not supposed to be a question off topic. You both indicted that you couldn't go into Christian worship centers correct? I believe it may have Yael that said she had been in a Muslim Mosque and maybe some other religious worship centers.

 

Do you also have the same limitation to religious books? Have you personally read the Brit Chadasha, (what we call the New Testament), Quran, or other religious material? Would one be off limits because of the monotheism and the other not or could an Orthodox Jew read any of them for informational purposes?

 

Again, I'm just curious if it goes against your teaching. I know that I read other religious material for informational purposes, but there are some others that I feel are off limit.

[Ameena]

This place seems to have flavored kosher jello http://www.koshergelatin.com/--- lime, raspberry, cherry, orange, strawberry, all in regular or sugar free. They look to have marshmallows as well.

 

Thank you! Exactly what I've been looking for - and from looking in their where to buy section I THINK I can get my local store to order it for me, since there is another store of the chain in the next city up the pike listed as carrying it. Worst case scenario I might have to take a road trip lol.

[YaelAldrich]

Thank you! Exactly what I've been looking for - and from looking in their where to buy section I THINK I can get my local store to order it for me, since there is another store of the chain in the next city up the pike listed as carrying it. Worst case scenario I might have to take a road trip lol.

This is good quality stuff.  Hahn Foods also used to make a vegan version that was good as well.

[YaelAldrich]

Yael, if you have already answered these questions, then you can just say already stated. I have read through the entire thread, but it's been over several days. I wish I had my pre-pregnancy brain back. It's slowly been leaking out the last 15 years. :)

 

You said you've been in different types of Judiasm. What type of Judaism did you follow in your home as a child? I just wonder if that most people stay with the same form they grew up with. Obviously, I realize this is ultimately an individual thing. When you convert from within Judaism is it a easier process than for a gentile? Oh, and do most people convert either from inside or outside of Judaism because of marriage? Or do you have a lot of people from other beliefs converting because they found their truth?

 

When referring to Orthodox, Reform, etc do you say we practice this type, sect, or form? Is saying it one way the proper way or are all acceptable? Trying not to sound rude there also. I would like to refer to it as in the proper way. Is one group significantly more populous or influential in Israel or anywhere else?

I'm swamped with conference planning and school.  I will try to talk more about this and the other question soon. Please be patient!

 

Yael

[Redeemed7]

I'm swamped with conference planning and school. I will try to talk more about this and the other question soon. Please be patient!

 

Yael

No, problem. I completely understand. I did look at the aish link you listed. Thank you for providing it. I actually have had the app for that site for a little while. I hadn't checked the site out much though. I found it when searching for a Hebrew calendar a while back I believe.

[Redeemed7]

I think Yael described her process up thread a bit - she converted from outside rather than inside, if I understood her correctly.

 

Within Judaism there is no 'conversion'. None. If someone is Jewish and changes his/her observance level there is no 'process' or conversion. A non-observant Jew is no less Jewish than an observant one.

 

The conversions from 'outside' that I know of were all unrelated to marriage - in a number of cases it was whole families converting.

 

I don't refer to individual Jews as one 'type' or another. We are all one people. I do refer to a non-Orthodox shul or a publication or a Rabbinic leader with some designation if I feel that will make something clearer.

 

I would say I am 'frum', or, more formally, shomer mitzvos (a keeper/guarder/observer of mitzvos)..or to identify the flavor of frumkeit, I might say I am yeshivish or 'black hat'... though with a strand of modernity in the vein of Rabbi Hirsch or Rabbi Soleveitchik.

 

I don't want to label fellow Jews - in the context of whether I can eat from someone's kitchen, s/he needs to be shomer shabbos (& many would say not someone who would eat at a not kosher restaurant)...

 

..if I study a sefer, I want to know if the author is coming from a frum hashkafa (worldview/philosophy) - not that I automatically wouldn't read it if s/he weren't, but I want to know what framework s/he is using.

 

...but I can't think of another scenario where it would matter that I label someone.

 

Okay, I thought of one... when supporting my kids in looking for a marriage partner - then observance level would be very relevant.

 

I don't know of a good source for worldwide population data by movement affiliation.

 

The Pew Research Center does an annual survey of the US Jewish population. Here's there chart:

 

 

In 2012, according to the American Jewish Committee world population survey, 39.5% of the world Jewish population is in the United States.

 

In Canada, ~64% of Jews are, in some fashion, religious. The discussion in the survey I saw for 2001 indicates that a higher percentage of Canadian Jews are observant than of US Jews, but I didn't see a break down.

 

 

The American Jewish Religious Denominations Survey in its percentage of Jewish population surveys has for Anglo-Jewry Orthodox at 50% (70% of those religiously affiliated), Israeli 25%, and American at 13%

 

The Pew study has 'retention' rates and other such data analysis.

I guess I thought that perhaps if you changed observance level you may have to have specific training or something. I don't know. lol It seems like you are saying that you just start attending the group and as you go along you will learn the difference in observance. Correct me if I misunderstand.

 

I think the word I was looking for was observance level or maybe denominations. I didn't know you referred to them as denominations, but I saw that in the information you posted. Somehow saying what sect do you belong to sounds cultish to me for some reason and obviously I didn't want it to come out sounding rude. Again, thank you for your thorough answer.

 

Yael, I thought I read that you had converted from outside of Judaism, but when I looked back I only saw your thread about your different observance levels. And I thought your name was Jewish, so I figured I had you mixed up with someone else. I didn't want to ask if were you born Jewish. I thought that might come out sounding rude. Forgive me if I asked you a question that doesn't apply.