ASD and personal responsibility

[Carrie12345]

Sigh. Posting this here instead of SN b/c of overarching themes.

 

I don't know what to do with my 15yo (public school) high-functioning aspie. He's made such huge strides in so many areas, but this one is like a brick wall.  Let me lay out the latest scenario.

 

His math class had a quiz based on 2 homework problems, with that homework in front of them.

Ds discovered he had skipped the second problem when doing homework. :glare:

Ds (says he) raised his hand and asked if anyone had the second question.

The kid behind him hands him his paper and says "Here."

 

Ds (and, I assume, the other kid) gets a zero.

 

Ds tells me this story, enraged.  It's not his fault. He didn't ask the kid for his paper. He wasn't cheating. He just needed the problem.  Yadda, yadda.

 

I asked him if he raised his hand. He says yes. I asked why he didn't wait to speak until the teacher addressed him. He just goes on and on about needing the problem. It wasn't his fault.

 

I talk to him about how there is NO talking during a test of quiz. None.  If you need help, you wait for the teacher. Period.  These are the rules. The end.

 

So I say, "Look. This IS how it IS. But forget the quiz, what lesson have we learned here for the future?"

"That it's not my fault!"

 

:cursing: :glare: :huh: :crying:

 

This is basically how most personal responsibility issues are going right now. I have no idea what to do with this!!!

 

(FWIW, he did speak to the teacher and she declined to report him for cheating, so he really did come out a winner on this one, but he sure doesn't see it that way!)

[City Mouse]

Frustrating I know, but it did make me smile a bit as I can relate.

This sounds just like my brother growing up, and my DD is similar. I would say that the teacher just needs to make the class rules and expectations very clear to your DS.

 

At 40+ years old! my brother is still like that.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Hold him accountable. Explain the purpose of that quiz.

He knows he is ducking...ask him what he expected to have happened when he asked if anyone had the second question.

 

No, someone with ASD does not know they are ducking.  He is stuck in the rigid compulsive thinking that is part of ASD.  

 

OP - I've found that blame of any kind doesn't work - at least not at first - even though I realize that you want him to be able to see what happened so that he can take responsibility for it.  

 

Focus on "what are the rules for a situation like this".  He needs strategies to think through the logistics of the quiz.  And then he needs strategies to think through the social aspects.  The classroom structure of no talking unless a teacher acknowledges you, would be social.  

 

 

Was this a pop quiz?  Or did they know that there would be a quiz on these two problems?  

[SKL]

My nephew has ASD.  He is by all accounts a great student and great citizen.  The first time ASD ever caused problems at school:  he was about 14 and another boy busted up his science fair project (on purpose).  Fisticuffs ensued, and my nephew came out of it with one or two black eyes.  He had a tiny piece of rubber in his hand (wire insulation that he had removed from the wire as part of his project).  Both kids were taken to the principal's office and asked to write their account of what had happened.  My nephew detailed the fact that he had a piece of rubber in his hand and hit the other boy with it.  Note, this is like hitting someone with a piece of wet spaghetti noodle.  Unfortunately if you hit someone with ANYTHING (other than your own body parts) in that school, it is treated as a violation of the zero tolerance weapons rule, and he was suspended (or invited to an "alternative school") for 6 months.  Yep, 6 months for a first offense.  The 6 months cut into high school, and he had been accepted to an elite high school program for gifted kids, which was now about to be forfeited.  Thankfully, but not without considerable stress and expense, they were able to appeal and reduce the 6 month suspension, and that is all history.

 

My take-away from this is that the kid didn't realize that he needed to consider the impact of his statement and consider whether there is a less damaging way to say the same thing.  Since the thing in his hand could not hurt anyone ever, it was not a weapon and it would not have been a sin to leave it out of the story, right?  Some ASD kids really have to be coached about not being 100% literal all the time.

 

In the case of the 0%, depending on how important this was in the big picture, I would probably let the teacher's decision stand.  If the quiz depended on his doing the homework, and he didn't do it, then the consequence was really for him not doing the homework, which seems fair.  Presumably anyone else who didn't do the homework would have been docked as well.  So really there were 2 things at play:  not doing the homework, and not following the protocol of tests/quizzes.  If the zero matters a lot in the big picture, I might lobby for partial credit, but most likely not.

[Jennifer-72]

Have you seen the book Learning the ROPES for Improved Exeuctive Functioning? The authors have a series of different graphic organizers they use for various executive functioning difficulties. One of them is called a basic thinking tool where you look at a situation, the action taken, and the resulting outcome. They also expand that to look at different actions you can take that lead to different outcomes from the same situation. It is a great way to help those with ASD link their actions with the resulting outcomes and see that their actions do result in the outcomes they get.

 

Here is a link to the book, you just have to scroll down a bit.

 

http://www.abtaproducts.com/publications.htm

[Night Elf]

My Aspie is very rules oriented, so he would understand the 'no talking' during quizzes meant everyone for any reason. I guess I would talk to the teacher and ask her nicely if she can remind him that he should always go to her first with any problems he has, especially during any assignment that requires the class to be quiet.

 

As far as personal responsibility as a whole, I think it should be looked at problem by problem. I don't think an ASD would really see the whole picture, but I could be wrong. I'd choose another area where he needs help and work on it like a skill. An example from my son is his hygiene. I got tired of telling him when to do every little thing like brush his teeth and take a shower. We finally made it a routine. He's got a program on his computer that pops up alarms when it's time to do something, so we used that to remind him when it was time to do these things. Eventually it turned into routine for him so now he doesn't even need reminders. Part of the problem where personal responsibility came in was him needing to do these things before we left the house. If I didn't remind him, and he didn't do it, he'd feel pressured when it was time to go and he wasn't ready. He would get mad at me for not reminding him. It took a while, but he eventually owned this problem. He's also taken responsibility for his school work. That one was harder because it was something he really didn't like to do.

 

Oh, it was definitely more of a problem when he was younger. If he and his sister got into a fight, it was always her fault. Even if I witnessed a problem that clearly he was doing. Trying to explain to him that those things were unacceptable was hard, and that was before we got a diagnosis so I had no idea why he was like that. It was just quite frustrating.

[Catwoman]

Frankly I am with your ds. He needed the problem. It doesn't seem unreasonable for him to get it.

I don't understand it, either.

 

And why should the other kid have gotten into trouble for giving him the problem? He didn't give him the answer. :confused:

[MomatHWTK]

My Aspie would probably have totally lost it if confronted with a difficulty that did not have a pre-programmed solution.  No talking vs. I don't have the information to perform the quiz would have been a break down conflict.  (Y'know like HAL- Does not compute.)

 

I would probably explain to him that yes, it seemed like an impossible situation but the "no talking" rule superseded the other need.  As others have suggested, institute a new rule into the programming of 'see the teacher first.'

[Night Elf]

Frankly I am with your ds.  He needed the problem.  It doesn't seem unreasonable for him to get it.

 

It's possible the quiz had already been handed out. That would like trading test papers in the teacher's point of view.

[Carrie12345]

My Aspie would probably have totally lost it if confronted with a difficulty that did not have a pre-programmed solution.  No talking vs. I don't have the information to perform the quiz would have been a break down conflict.  (Y'know like HAL- Does not compute.)

 

I would probably explain to him that yes, it seemed like an impossible situation but the "no talking" rule superseded the other need.  As others have suggested, institute a new rule into the programming of 'see the teacher first.'

 

This is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish.  (I don't care a bit about the zero. He *needs* to be getting these non-parental consequences.) I just don't know how to get that rule in is head when he INSISTS he's done nothing wrong.

Like I said, this is one example.  Many others also involve school work in which he claims no responsibility.  It's actually making me fearful for his future success.

(And he's in school by his choice, not mine. Mostly b/c I spent several years trying to hold him accountable!!!)

[Amy in NH]

He needs help understanding that he must take responsibility for the consequences of his actions instead of claiming no responsibility.  That is something that a counselor should be able to help you with, which should be a part of his IEP.

[Carrie12345]

He needs help understanding that he must take responsibility for the consequences of his actions instead of claiming no responsibility.  That is something that a counselor should be able to help you with, which should be a part of his IEP.

 

Wouldn't that be nice?

Wouldn't an IEP be nice???

You're absolutely right, but he's been denied IEPs in 3 separate school districts across 2 states. That's why we originally decided to homeschool.  We've met with guidance and/or the child study team 4 times in the past 18 months. They don't care one whit.

[Catwoman]

It's possible the quiz had already been handed out. That would like trading test papers in the teacher's point of view.

I guess so. I just can't figure out why he would have had one problem but not the other one.

 

Personally, I think the teacher over-reacted, unless these two kids have been known to cheat in the past -- and I'm not getting that impression at all.

 

One kid tried to help another kid by giving him the quiz problem, and the teacher gave them both zeroes. That seems kind of extreme to me. I could understand reprimanding the kids there and then for talking, but once they explained what was going on, I think she should have been more flexible.

 

It was a little quiz, not the SATs.

[Carrie12345]

I guess so. I just can't figure out why he would have had one problem but not the other one.

 

 

The problems were taken directly from their homework assignments, not a book or worksheet. He didn't do that problem, so it wasn't on his homework.

Which isn't his fault, either, because schools shouldn't give so much homework! :closedeyes:

 

(Honestly, his classes *don't* assign much homework at all. He just doesn't want to do it.)

 

[Catwoman]

The problems were taken directly from their homework assignments, not a book or worksheet. He didn't do that problem, so it wasn't on his homework.

Which isn't his fault, either, because schools shouldn't give so much homework! :closedeyes:

 

(Honestly, his classes *don't* assign much homework at all. He just doesn't want to do it.)

 

Thanks for the clarification! :)

[Carrie12345]

how?  that is illegal if he has a dx.

 

All of his evaluations show that he's perfectly capable of learning without intervention. And he is. He's just incapable of meeting his responsibilities.

[SKL]

Maybe you could redirect his attention to "do you want to do well in this class or not?"  If he wants to do well, he needs to do all of the homework, follow quiz protocol, and whatever else the teacher asks.  There is no point assigning "fault."  If you want abc, you need to do xyz.  Did you do xyz?  No?  Then how do you expect to get abc?  Next time do xyz if you want abc.

[QueenCat]

how?  that is illegal if he has a dx.

 

You still have to prove that the child's diagnosis is impacting their education. Diagnosis is not automatic grounds for an IEP. However, I do not see how a child with ASD would not be able to show that their medical issue is impacting their education. I do think the OP needs legal help for this. Not this test situation but the overall IEP help. There are many nonprofits that help with this type of thing.

[QueenCat]

All of his evaluations show that he's perfectly capable of learning without intervention. And he is. He's just incapable of meeting his responsibilities.

 

Meeting his responsibilities when you have ASD IS a part of getting an education. The federal legal requirements do not require it to be academic ability only but overall ability to fully gain an education. My son had an IEP and was one of the schools top testers in nationally normed tests. He could do all of the academics but needed major help with organizing homework, handling the social environment, etc. The IEP addressed homework, testing conditions, social help, etc.

[SKL]

In my state, there is no entitlement to special consideration in school unless your diagnosed issue is preventing you from learning what you need to learn in school.  So if your child is able to compensate because of extra hard work, high IQ or whatever, then forget it.

[QueenCat]

In my state, there is no entitlement to special consideration in school unless your diagnosed issue is preventing you from learning what you need to learn in school.  So if your child is able to compensate because of extra hard work, high IQ or whatever, then forget it.

 

States have to follow federal law. Learning ways to compensate are often goals of the IEP. Not passing a quiz because of issues related to one's disability is an academic concern.

[Carrie12345]

Meeting his responsibilities when you have ASD IS a part of getting an education. The federal legal requirements do not require it to be academic ability only but overall ability to fully gain an education. My son had an IEP and was one of the schools top testers in nationally normed tests. He could do all of the academics but needed major help with organizing homework, handling the social environment, etc. The IEP addressed homework, testing conditions, social help, etc.

 

Trust me, I know what they're supposed to do!  Supposed to and actually DO are two entirely different things. K, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 9th, 10th... I've banged my head against the wall every single applicable year.  I have the stacks and stacks of paper to show for it!

[SKL]

I remember when my ASD nephew was in his 1st year of high school, the first time he ever had a demanding (for him) courseload.  He almost flunked out because he was so disorganized about his homework, he failed to turn in major projects etc.  His parents worked with him to get it together.  As far as I know, he has no IEP.  I think the school would probably kick him out of the gifted program vs. offer to help him survive it.  I doubt if his parents ever asked about it, though.

[QueenCat]

Trust me, I know what they're supposed to do!  Supposed to and actually DO are two entirely different things. K, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 9th, 10th... I've banged my head against the wall every single applicable year.  I have the stacks and stacks of paper to show for it!

 

Unfortunately, I have found that people often need to bring a trained advocate to IEP meetings. Many states have nonprofits that help with this at low costs, sometimes free. Parent to Parent has branches in many states. You might want to see if you can get help there. Or the Autism Society of America.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

An executive function problem (and maybe others) would account for not filling in all the problems.  It can also lead to being overwhelmed and then just giving up.  Ds often will just not see problems that he's skipped - like his brain has blipped them out.  Has he been tested by a neuropsych (not necessarily through the school district)? 

[QueenCat]

I remember when my ASD nephew was in his 1st year of high school, the first time he ever had a demanding (for him) courseload.  He almost flunked out because he was so disorganized about his homework, he failed to turn in major projects etc.  His parents worked with him to get it together.  As far as I know, he has no IEP.  I think the school would probably kick him out of the gifted program vs. offer to help him survive it.  I doubt if his parents ever asked about it, though.

 

Ds was both in the gifted program and had an IEP for his ASD. They can't kick you out of the gifted program if you qualify just because you have a disability. Not legally, anyways.

[Carrie12345]

Ds was both in the gifted program and had an IEP for his ASD. They can't kick you out of the gifted program if you qualify just because you have a disability. Not legally, anyways.

 

:lol:  Funny enough, ds had a Gifted IEP but no regular IEP in his previous school!

[QueenCat]

:lol:  Funny enough, ds had a Gifted IEP but no regular IEP in his previous school!

 

Gotta laugh while you can....... They didn't do IEPs for the gifted program where we lived (prehomeschooling) but I'd heard some places do  use them in their gifted program. It really makes me mad when I hear about schools denying students what they need to succeed.

[Word Nerd]

Frankly I am with your ds. He needed the problem. It doesn't seem unreasonable for him to get it.

He would have had it if he had done the assignment he was given and come to class prepared. That's his responsibility.

[SadieMarie]

Things like this were one of the reasons my dd hated school.  And she is not on the spectrum.  As she said, "they treat kids like criminals."  He was not trying to cheat and he was punished for cheating.  I would be likely to agree with him that it isn't fair and then maybe discuss how lots of things in life are not fair and we all have to learn how to cope with that.  I mean, it sounds more like a problem with black and white thinking than not taking responsibility.  And if the quiz was a surprise and not having the second problem was another difficulty, it is not hard to see how he had some trouble.  I think school is full of rules that in practice are very arbitrary and unfair.

[Jean in Newcastle]

He would have had it if he had done the assignment he was given and come to class prepared. That's his responsibility.

It might be his responsibility, but if he has not been given the tools to keep himself on task, to follow through on assignments and to be successful then the responsibility is also shared by the adults in his life.  This is part of his disability.  It isn't fair to slap him on the wrist if he exhibits signs of his disability without being given what he needs to cope with it.  

[Amy in NH]

Unfortunately, I have found that people often need to bring a trained advocate to IEP meetings. Many states have nonprofits that help with this at low costs, sometimes free. Parent to Parent has branches in many states. You might want to see if you can get help there. Or the Autism Society of America.

 

 

I suggest you find a trained SpEd advocate through your state SpEd advocacy organization.  There is an organization like this in each state.  I was trained to be a Volunteer SpEd Advocate by the org in my state, and sometimes I attend meetings with parents.  Last year I helped out a parent whose child was just diagnosed as an Aspie, on the school's honor roll, and he did get an IEP.  They had tried to give the parent a "child is getting good grades/test scores" run around, but capitulated when I started attending meetings.  If I get a chance I'll dig out the applicable federal language for you, as well as a court case...

 

[kbutton]

I can totally see my son doing this when he's older (he's 9 now). We recently went round and round about what it means to be "bothered." If you feel bad about something, it's not bothered. To him, the only time you qualify as bothered is if you are actually upset enough to quit something. Merely being offended, hurt, or hampered does not equal bothered in his mind (this discussion came about because of a question in an inferencing activity).

 

I definitely would try to come up with more rules for these situations. It does seem like a never-ending game to think of enough rules that are flexible but not too broad especially as life gets more complicated. My son would view the behavior as problem-solving, and in a sense, that is correct. He would also be so determined to fix the problem that he would not be able to access a rule if it was at all vague (and maybe not then).

 

Perhaps the wrightslaw website would have persuasive information for the school or links to local advocates.