Which Pre-Algebra Program? (very young child)

[CrunchyGirl]

Anyone want to take a stab at this? LOL

 

Here's the deal. LegoMan will turn 7 this summer. So far he has completed:

SM1-4

BA 3

LOF through Fractions (he loves Fred, like he's a hero and best friend)

 

Currently working through:

LOF Decimals (starting in the next week or so)

MM5 (switched from SM to MM for financial reasons--I bought 4 grades of SM in the last 12 months)

SM CWP 3 & 4

BA 4

Murderous Math

Penrose the Cat

 

Up next:

MM 6

LOF Elementary Physics

SM CWP 5 & 6

Whatever BA books come out

Maybe SCM business math (he finds business stuff fascinating since that's mommy's thing--but really this would just be to buy time)

 

His pace is insane and he's good. The only things he "struggles" with are word problems (but even then he's suddenly making major strides the last few weeks) and he doesn't really enjoy puzzling through problems. He is so used to grasping major new concepts very quickly (usually within 24 hours) that he is easily frustrated by difficult "puzzles". I think it's partially age and partially personality (he's my husband's kid for sure). So for example, he loves BA but it does tend to frustrate him. At least it's only BA that frustrates him at all (I guess sometimes the challenging IP problems too). Everything else seems to be a cake walk. We don't mind him being frustrated and want to find ways to encourage him to power through but of course he is ultimately 6 years old and I worry about killing his love of math and learning. It's just a weird balancing act.

 

I'd like to think we have a year before we hit pre-A but at his current pace and looking ahead at how few new concepts for elementary math there are left to master, I'm concerned we may have as little as 6 months. Both DH and I would like to work through the planned pre-A and algebra programs ourselves prior to him going through them (we both have decent math backgrounds but it's been awhile). I just suddenly feel like we're running short on time to make that happen and we probably need to think about which program we will likely go with.

 

So given that he's insanely young (kill me now), hates unnecessary repetition and review (he seems to find it insulting and to be fair, he doesn't need it), but also doesn't necessarily have the maturity to power through very tough puzzles...any thoughts on which pre-A program we should be looking at? I remember someone (maybe Ruth?) mentioning her child worked through AOPS pre-A (or maybe it was A) over a two year period, slowly struggling their way through it. Or do we go with something that's more straight forward?

 

ETA: Adjusted the subject to hopefully make it easy to find in the future if anyone else is in the situation.

[kohlby]

My middle child is a year older than your child but our plan is LoF Pre-Alg.  She's almost 8 and in LoF Decimals now.  I'm planning on doing some Zaccaro challenge problems instead of starting Pre-Alg this year.  But the next school year starts in June for us, so it's not that far off. LoF does have extra things in it with the Biology and Economics but she loves Fred's story format.  I'm waiting on LoF Physics to give her a little more time to mature in that type of thought process.  So, though LoF has Physics before the Pre-Algebras, we'll do it after.  I don't think my daughter will be able to handle AoPS, as she gets stressed too easily, though I love AoPS.  We switched out of a different curriculum for LoF, as she was getting stressed even though she was doing great.  We started LoF all the way back in Apples and zipped through, since she needed that for emotional reasons, even though she really could have gone into Fractions academically at that point.  She doesn't like to struggle at all and has some anxiety issues so I'm fine not pushing her.  I feel that LoF is giving her a solid curriculum even if it's not as rigorous as AoPS. 

 

My eldest does do AoPS - but he didn't start until Intro to Alg and had just turned 9 when he started.  He did well - but I'm certain he wouldn't have been able to handle AoPS's style younger.  It really depends on your student.  One thing that was a definite transition was going from knowing all the answers to having to struggle with them.  There was frustration since he had never felt that before.  However, he was actually able to appreciate that frustration! That's something he wouldn't have been able to do younger.  (He has now also finished AoPS for Alg II and Intro to Number Theory and he's working through AoPS Intro to Geometry at 10. I can't say enough about how much we love AoPS!).  So, If you do decide to switch into AoPS later at Intro to Alg, it may work quite well.  My son had done MUS before this - which isn't especially rigorous, but it got the basics down and he was ready for AoPS.

 

 

[jenbrdsly]

Have you tried Hands on Equations yet? My son started that at 6.5. I have some pictures on my blog: http://teachingmybabytoread.com/2011/12/17/hands-on-equations-is-amazing

(Sorry, hyperlinks aren't working for me at the moment.)

 

The mom from Homeschool Ninjas first told me about HOE and I'm so glad she did.

[Dmmetler]

My DD did LOF Pre-A at 7 and moved into AOPS PA at 8. It was a great transition for her, and there are some strategies in LOF that aren't in AOPS (and a lot in AOPS that isn't in LOF) so they complemented each other well.

[SierraNevada]

This is a great thread to follow for me as well, as DS6 is on the exact same path and books for the most part, (but still SM) as your child. My plan is when he is done with SM6, including CWP/IP, and all available BAs, then go back and do Hard Math for Elementary School, hopefully letting him turn at least 7.5 before we get into pre-algebra. I want to do Aops, but like your child, he struggles with having to think at this age. Not much makes him think, but when it does, tantrums ensue. I expect to be done with sixth grade by years end when he turns 7. So hopefully that will give him a bit of time to mature into working on harder problems. If not, then I may hold off on Aops and have him do LoF as well. We have only used the fractions book of LoF and DS wasn't totally thrilled with it, but didn't dislike it either. Luke warm. I've also considered using Aops pre -algebra for longer than a year to have him oaky work though the idea of harder problems. But, having never seen the book, honestly I wonder what is in pre-algebra that he won't already know? Isn't pre-algebra usually just a run through elementary school math with basic algebraic equations thrown in? I'd actually love to hear what more is in there? Of course, I don't really want to skip it, because going into algebra at that age seems way too young, so I need the extra time to slow him down.

[kiana]

But, having never seen the book, honestly I wonder what is in pre-algebra that he won't already know? Isn't pre-algebra usually just a run through elementary school math with basic algebraic equations thrown in? I'd actually love to hear what more is in there? Of course, I don't really want to skip it, because going into algebra at that age seems way too young, so I need the extra time to slow him down.

 

You can check the AOPS pre-algebra post-test. http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/products/prealgebra/posttest.pdf

 

Some people who have very young children who are not yet ready for the frustration of AOPS have done Jacobs Algebra (includes necessary pre-algebra topics in the beginning of the book) and/or Jousting Armadillos (a newer program based off Jacobs). Jacobs can also be spread over more than a year.

[8filltheheart]

I have used MUS's alg and geo programs in a single yr as pre-alg and pre-geo.   They have done a good job of introducing the concepts and providing a foundation for following up with more thorough coverage.

[dbmamaz]

to hold him off a little, i'd suggest Zaccaro books (even tho they are all word problems) and the dragonbox apps

[Megbo]

If Math Mammoth is going well, it might be worth checking to see if MM7 will be released by the time you need it. I made a note that it would be ready for Fall 2014, but haven't seen any updates lately. 

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

Currclick is having a Tangerine Tuesday sale which includes many math worksheets, online classes and software from A + math that may be a good supplement or entire program. I only have some samples from them right now. 

If anyone else uses this I would like more information about their Pre-A and A software.  I am looking for a supplement since it is difficult to juggle space and time on the PC with so many children.

The sale is extended for a few more days.

[quark]

Sorry about repetition if any, I have not read all the responses.

 

Anyone want to take a stab at this? LOL

 

Here's the deal. LegoMan will turn 7 this summer. So far he has completed:

SM1-4

BA 3

LOF through Fractions (he loves Fred, like he's a hero and best friend)

 

Currently working through:

LOF Decimals (starting in the next week or so)

MM5 (switched from SM to MM for financial reasons--I bought 4 grades of SM in the last 12 months)

SM CWP 3 & 4

BA 4

Murderous Math

Penrose the Cat

 

Very similar to kiddo at 6yo-7+yo. We didn't have BA at that time. We also used Key To books (all of Key To except that we stopped at Book 3 of Key to Algebra and Book 2 of Key To Geometry if I remember correctly).  We also used MEP and added the MM blue books for Fractions and Decimals and Percents. He read all the Murderous Math books and a ton of living math books and started working on Moscow Puzzles.

 

With all that and some self-directed number pattern observations, we went directly into algebra 1 using Dolciani. We made the decision because he was making very quick leaps...within a day sometimes. Delaying moving on was just frustrating him no end. And we didn't have personal experience ourselves with a dedicated pre-algebra year. I consider everything he did prior to algebra as prealgebra, he did not need a year-long program to review those concepts. And I couldn't get him interested in LoF's Pre-A books although he enjoyed LoF Fractions and D+P. He was also uninterested in Jacobs' books. Dolciani is really quite gentle and cheap when bought used. You can leave out some chapters for the time being if they are too hard and come back to them later.

 

After Dolciani, kiddo used AoPS Intro to Algebra (the first half) over about 2 years to review algebra 1. He was still working on some percent and ratio practice on the side while working on algebra 1 that first time with Dolciani but had enough of a solid background to move on to geometry while also working on AoPS Intro to Algebra.

So given that he's insanely young (kill me now), hates unnecessary repetition and review (he seems to find it insulting and to be fair, he doesn't need it), but also doesn't necessarily have the maturity to power through very tough puzzles...any thoughts on which pre-A program we should be looking at? I remember someone (maybe Ruth?) mentioning her child worked through AOPS pre-A (or maybe it was A) over a two year period, slowly struggling their way through it. Or do we go with something that's more straight forward?

 

Not Ruth, but I think he will get more out of AoPS if he does it either as a second algebra program or when he is a little older. Not able to comment about AoPS Pre-A.

 

Good luck!
 

[EndOfOrdinary]

We did two rounds of Pre-Algebra with my kiddo.  We did something like Pre-Algebra on Khan and just playing around with math when my son was 7.  Then we transitioned to AoPS PreAlgebra and went a bit slower as he got used to the format differences.  He is going to finish up with that this year and a little bit into next year (we are combining it with Intro to Counting/Prob because he began to get fairly bored with the continuation of PreAlgebra).  7 is young, but too young as long as you go slowly and make sure these foundations are really set.

[lewelma]

I remember someone (maybe Ruth?) mentioning her child worked through AOPS pre-A (or maybe it was A) over a two year period, slowly struggling their way through it.

My son took almost 3 years to get through AoPS Intro Algebra from just aged 9 to almost 12. When he was younger he just did SM IP. (there was no AoPS pre-A back then)

 

What made my son's experience different from many was that he did *not* want to be taught, ever. And he struggled, to the point of tears at times. But it was the struggle that formed him. Not sure I would recommend it, but it was the path that he *needed* to take.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Pen]

If he enjoys LOF, why not continue it?

[acurtis75]

My DD did LOF Pre-A at 7 and moved into AOPS PA at 8. It was a great transition for her, and there are some strategies in LOF that aren't in AOPS (and a lot in AOPS that isn't in LOF) so they complemented each other well.

 

We are almost done with mus pre-algebra and ready to start AOPs...dd has been reading Fred for fun starting with the elementary serious but I haven't really been monitoring and considering it part of our official curriculum. Your post makes me wonder if I should plan to rotate between LOF and AOPs as our official curriculum. Do you think it adds a lot of value if done at the same time or should I just let her read it for entertainment? DD likes Beast Academy so she'll probably still complete that and work on Singapore CWP.

 

FWIW, MUS is VERY easy for DD. She watches the DVD and then does the test and moves on. I've been holding her back over the last year and half just because of scheduling, dealing with being pregnant and then getting used to the new baby. Looking back we probably could have skipped MUS and started with AOPs.

[dauphin]

Another vote for hands on equations. Plus there's an app!

[Dmmetler]

For DD, she needed the practice at taking math from one book and working it in another, sometimes having to redraw figures, and so on. LOF provided that. I'd planned to alternate the two this year (doing LOF algebra), and DD preferred to do it on her own. I still ordered LOF for next year. At age 9, she still likes and seems to need some"cute", and AOPS is very lacking in "cute" (although she's enjoyed figuring out how much wood can a wood Chuck Chuck and at what angle the chicken crossed the road). LOF is "cute"-I think DD would gladly have Fred as her little brother.

[acurtis75]

For DD, she needed the practice at taking math from one book and working it in another, sometimes having to redraw figures, and so on. LOF provided that. I'd planned to alternate the two this year (doing LOF algebra), and DD preferred to do it on her own. I still ordered LOF for next year. At age 9, she still likes and seems to need some"cute", and AOPS is very lacking in "cute" (although she's enjoyed figuring out how much wood can a wood Chuck Chuck and at what angle the chicken crossed the road). LOF is "cute"-I think DD would gladly have Fred as her little brother.

The cuteness factor pretty much sums up why dd likes it as well. I think I'll go ahead and order it. She insists we need to go through calculus so she can get the full story so she probably wasn't going to go for skipping a book anyway.

[CrunchyGirl]

Thanks for all the great ideas! I think the thing that worries me about just Fred is that I'd essentially be accelerating a child through a less than rigorous program. But I agree, that cuteness factor is huge at this age and in the end Fred or something like it may be the only way to continue to introduce new concepts without bogging him down with dull. I wish Beast would release all their books and maybe convert pre-A and A over to that format :)

 

He does love Fred. I've been horribly sick all day and he sat down by himself and did two Fred bridges (scoring 100%) just for fun. The rest of his time has been spent making up and solving fraction equations that require canceling twice. 

[kohlby]

Thanks for all the great ideas! I think the thing that worries me about just Fred is that I'd essentially be accelerating a child through a less than rigorous program. But I agree, that cuteness factor is huge at this age and in the end Fred or something like it may be the only way to continue to introduce new concepts without bogging him down with dull. I wish Beast would release all their books and maybe convert pre-A and A over to that format :)

 

He does love Fred. I've been horribly sick all day and he sat down by himself and did two Fred bridges (scoring 100%) just for fun. The rest of his time has been spent making up and solving fraction equations that require canceling twice. 

 

LoF is still college-prep level though. It is solid.  It's not AoPS rigor, which is above honors level, but that's okay.  There's plenty of time for that later if that's what your child needs later.

[acurtis75]

Thanks for all the great ideas! I think the thing that worries me about just Fred is that I'd essentially be accelerating a child through a less than rigorous program. But I agree, that cuteness factor is huge at this age and in the end Fred or something like it may be the only way to continue to introduce new concepts without bogging him down with dull. I wish Beast would release all their books and maybe convert pre-A and A over to that format :)

 

He does love Fred. I've been horribly sick all day and he sat down by himself and did two Fred bridges (scoring 100%) just for fun. The rest of his time has been spent making up and solving fraction equations that require canceling twice. 

If your concern is making sure concepts are covered and he gets practice problems MUS pre-algebra might be a good fit to supplement LOF. It is pretty easy and straight forward.

[wimseycat]

Have you considered Thinkwell Math? My kids enjoy Dr. Berger very much and it is rigorous and thorough.  It starts with Grade 6 and continues through Calculus.

[Diviya]

At one point I posted a really long winded explanation of our early math journey. Here is the summary version (which is still long winded). My oldest finished sm6 just before starting third grade, around when she turned 8. We flailed around trying lots of stuff like Singapore NEM, New Math Counts, Key to Algebra, AOPS Alg, probably others I am forgetting. Nothing really clicked. Beginning of 4th AOPS came out and we did that, even though it initially felt like a step back. It was a real struggle at first, but once she got the hang of it she was hooked. (She was 9) She went through the book in about 6 months. Algebra has been slower. My younger daughter finished Singapore 6b around the same time, but I did some beast and other stuff with her in third and beginning of 4th. She just started the AOPS Prealgebra online class about a month ago. She will be 10 in a couple of months.

If there is any point to this, it's that the AOPS Prealgebra is great, but the wordiness is hard for the younger kids. However a traditional textbook would be much harder. I haven't done MUS or LoF, but those sound like they might be better options given his age, or stick with Beast.

Hope that helps.

[basketcase]

We found Jousting Armadillos to be a great transition before AoPS Pre-Algebra. We've used some Jacobs as well. But there is some complaining that little sister gets to do "fun" math with Beast Academy 3 while he's doing Pre-A. LoF is great as well, just not a perfect fit for this particular kid of mine. We're going to take a break from AoPS soon to use the Cryptoclub. It's so adorable. Not that it teaches Algebra, per say, but reviews a lot of Pre-A topics. http://www.amazon.com/The-Cryptoclub-Using-Mathematics-Secret/dp/156881223X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1395700464&sr=8-2&keywords=code+breaking+math

[SierraNevada]

We found Jousting Armadillos to be a great transition before AoPS Pre-Algebra. We've used some Jacobs as well. But there is some complaining that little sister gets to do "fun" math with Beast Academy 3 while he's doing Pre-A. LoF is great as well, just not a perfect fit for this particular kid of mine. We're going to take a break from AoPS soon to use the Cryptoclub. It's so adorable. Not that it teaches Algebra, per say, but reviews a lot of Pre-A topics. http://www.amazon.com/The-Cryptoclub-Using-Mathematics-Secret/dp/156881223X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1395700464&sr=8-2&keywords=code+breaking+math

Just curious if using Joisting A. Before Aops pre-algebra, is overkill? Is it really necessary to do two years of pre-algebra with these young kids who whipped though elementary math in a couple of years? What have been experiences with that?. Curious because I intend to use Aops, and my six year old will be ready for pre-algebra by the time he turns seven at his current pace. But I do worry the layout of Aops won't appeal to him. Considering using JA, but then wondering if Aops after that is way too much pre-algebra.

[CrunchyGirl]

Just curious if using Joisting A. Before Aops pre-algebra, is overkill? Is it really necessary to do two years of pre-algebra with these young kids who whipped though elementary math in a couple of years? What have been experiences with that?. Curious because I intend to use Aops, and my six year old will be ready for pre-algebra by the time he turns seven at his current pace. But I do worry the layout of Aops won't appeal to him. Considering using JA, but then wondering if Aops after that is way too much pre-algebra.

 

I wish you were local to me. It appears our kids have a lot in common :)

[basketcase]

We didn't do all of Jousting Armadillos - the beginning sections lay out algebraic notation very nicely, and at a slower pace than AoPS. So we did that part, then switched to AoPS Pre-A. We might switch back for a while at some point. AoPS is so much more advanced that I feel like we're still progressing. He's been challenged the whole time, so that works for us. My kid isn't as advanced in math as he is in some areas, so my needs probably aren't quite the same as yours. The explanations in Jousting Armadillos are more grounded in real life than the ones in AoPS. AoPS explains math by using more math, so it was nice for us to have a little longer with more concrete connections. 

[Dmmetler]

We did LOF vs JA before AOPS, but I don't think it was at all a waste of time to do two years of PA, even though it was a very definite change of speed to spend 2 years on one grade level of math after going through 3+ a year for the prior several years. It wasn't a waste because my DD needed so many skills other than math-the ability to read a less straightforward math text (IE, not all pictures and numbers, with few words except in word problems), the ability to copy over to a different book and set up her paper, the ability to realize she was making a mistake and start over, etc. PA was a good place to learn those skills, because the concepts weren't new, and it gave her time to really absorb and internalize the concepts. It might be that she would have been fine with just AOPS, but at a slower pace, but regardless, I think she was ready to slow down.

[serendipitous journey]

I agree with the above that AoPS PreA is hard on youngers.  It wasn't the wordiness that did us in, but the huge numbers -- often there is a mathematical key to solving the problem easily, that requires looking past the size of the numbers.  A. (at 7) simply couldn't handle a series of large numbers -- it seemed like a visual processing limit.  I could easily scan the numbers and see what was being called for, but he couldn't. 

 

We did SM DM7 for a bit (when he was 7) , and that worked pretty well.  He was then bored when we picked up AoPS PreA b/c it was review.  So I moved him into AoPS Algebra (just after he turned 8), which was really tough; and then he began forgetting some of his PreA.  Also I wanted to lighten up the algebra with something ... since I knew we want to do the main AoPS lineup with this child, and I had charter funds, I bought the Introductory Number Theory and Counting/Probability books.  We are now cycling through all four books: PreA (chapter 4), Algebra (end of chapter 4), Number Theory (just started), and Counting/Probability (just started).  A. does a complete section from each, spending however many days it takes, then we go to another book.  If we hit something we can't do I plan set it aside for a bit. 

 

This is working pretty well for us.  The PreA is a good (necessary?) review. 

[sunnyday]

I agree with the above that AoPS PreA is hard on youngers.  It wasn't the wordiness that did us in, but the huge numbers -- often there is a mathematical key to solving the problem easily, that requires looking past the size of the numbers.  A. (at 7) simply couldn't handle a series of large numbers -- it seemed like a visual processing limit.  I could easily scan the numbers and see what was being called for, but he couldn't. 

 

Is it the number of digits (extending the concept of place value into bigger numbers) or the series of numbers that are so long they need ellipses? My Borac competitive math book says that the abstraction of understanding that "there are more numbers behind the dots" is a developmental thing that some kids just don't really get until upper middle school (but some precocious kids can get in first or second grade).

 

My son definitely struggles with each new place value; he understands the concept (relative values of units in base 10) and can talk about numbers to 1 trillion, but actually composing and decomposing those units in mental math still challenges him -- you can see that he knows what needs to be lifted but the muscles are a little weak. :) So that's why I am still working with him in Singapore 2A even while he is doing really well with Beast Academy 3B, and why he isn't going to be ready for pre-A for a while. :) But he can do ellipses and we're practicing with problems like "2+4+6+8+10+...+50-1-3-5-7-9-...-49" in the Borac math so hopefully that's good prep for future AoPS! The samples we've seen of AoPS don't scare my son off with wordiness, he loves explanations and he loves being guided to a discovery rather than being told what to do, so he's chomping at the bit to fulfill his pre-reqs and get there! It's a few years off but we'll get there. ;)

[Dmmetler]

One example I can think of is in the Statistics chapter-there is a quite easy problem if you notice that the first x digits (I'm thinking at least 6, and it might even be 8) are the same, and therefore, you can work with just the last two digits of each number until the last step. If you look at the whole numbers, you'll be calculating with big enough numbers to cause a stack overflow in most calculators. There have been other ones in AOPS, and there's always a trick to it.

 

And it's a valuable skill-Some of the RW calculations DD's had to do this year are such that if you can't mentally reduce to the significant figures, you're going to hit stack overflow errors-which is happening to some of the college and grad students who obviously are used to being able to plug and chug using their calculator. And it's been a good reinforcement for WHY AOPS includes those ugly looking problems.

[SierraNevada]

One more question for those of you who used LOF before Aops-- do all three of the LOF books (elementary physics, biology and economics) make one complete pre-algebra program? Or do you only chose one?

 

This has been such an informative thread for me as well. Thanks!

[Dmmetler]

We did bio and economics. We did physics this year along with AOPS. There really isn't anything new mathematically in physics, just applications of what she'd already done. I don't think it was out yet when we started PA.

 

Bio and Econ do have definite different math content, and the pretty boxes method is fairly late in Econ, and is a very useful strategy.