S/O Louisiana Case - Religion in Public School

[justasque]

http://www.nola.com/crime/baton-rouge/index.ssf/2014/01/buddhist_christian_louisiana_sabine_aclu.html

 

 

Very interesting case that was mentioned in the "sharing family tradition vs. inappropriate evangelism" thread.
After looking into it, I thought it was worth a thread of its own.  

What do y'all think of the issues in the case?

 

[justasque]

Evidence from the ACLU in the Negreet High School case - 
Student Test one
Student Test two
Clip from the school's web site
Posters at the Junior High
Picture of Jesus in what looks like a school lobby

The DOJ letter is also well worth reading.  It goes into more detail about the family's discussions with the district, and the student's experience in the school.  The superintendent's remark about "the woman who cuts her toenails" is jaw dropping.

The full complaint goes into more detail, and gives the context for each item of the evidence linked above (and more).

I looked at the district's web site but did not see anything from their side about the case.
But I did find their statement of beliefs on their old web site (which is linked from their new web site).  It states:
 

We believe that:

 

 

¨  God exists.

¨  All children can learn.

¨  Excellence in education cannot be compromised.

¨  Every human being has worth and dignity and is worthy of respect.

¨  High expectations support achievement.

¨  Ongoing assessment is needed to improve programs.

¨  The school environment must be safe and orderly.

¨  The principal is the instructional leader.

¨  A significant amount of classroom time must be allocated to instruction in the essential skills.

¨  Education is a shared responsibility of family, school, teachers, staff and community and each should be given a voice in decisions that affect their children.

[Lisbeth]

I am a devout Mormon.  That said, this is very inappropriate in a public school.  A test that has "the Lord" as an answer on a science test...ummmm.... what?

[justasque]

This is a public school?  They state "god exists" as part of their whatever statement?

 

Yes.  According to this article from the Times Picayune, 

The school's motto, once "We believe that God exists," has now been removed from the website and replaced with a statement that says, "Our students are more than just a number...they are family."

 

The previous statement of beliefs is still visible on their old website, which they link from their new one.

Here is the old site - click on "Beliefs" on the right side of the page.

 

[justasque]

I am a devout Mormon.  That said, this is very inappropriate in a public school.  A test that has "the Lord" as an answer on a science test...ummmm.... what?

From the complaint:

 

30. In addition, Roark regularly administers science tests that include fill-in-the-blank 

Biblical verses and other religious affirmations as test questions. 

 

 31. On one occasion, the final question of an exam required students to fill in the blank 

to this question: “ISN’T IT AMAZING WHAT THE _____________ HAS 

MADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!†See Ex. A, a copy of the exam.

 

 32. Having been raised a Buddhist, C.C. was uncertain about the expected answer and 

left the question blank. When the test was returned to him, Roark had marked the question wrong 

and written “LORD†in red ink as the correct answer. See Ex. A. She also scolded C.C., with the 

entire class listening, for not writing in the correct answer. C.C.’s sister, who is also in Roark’s 

class, explained that her brother is a Buddhist and does not believe in God. After Roark returned 

to her desk, a student remarked, “you’re stupid if you don’t believe in God.†Roark looked up 

and shook her head yes in affirmation of the student’s remark.

 

33. C.C. felt sick and humiliated after the incident. 

 

 34. When C.C. later showed the exam to his mother, she instructed him that he need 

not answer such inappropriate questions. However, when C.C. expressed his concerned that he 

would lose points on his tests, Sharon told her son he could write “Buddha,†consistent with their 

religious beliefs, if the question were posed again. 

 

 35. C.C. did just that on a subsequent science test featuring the same question. In the 

blank, he wrote “Lord Boda [sic].†Roark marked the answer incorrect by placing a large, red 

question mark near it. See Ex. B, a copy of the test. As Roark was returning the tests to students, 

one student declared again, for the whole class to hear, that “people are stupid if they think God is 

not real.†Roark agreed, responding, “Yes! That is right! I had a student miss that on his test.†

Most of the students, who were present when Roark had previously ridiculed C.C. for failing to 

write “Lord†as the correct answer, broke out in laughter. 

 

 36. As a result of Roark’s conduct, C.C. became anxious and nauseated every morning 

before school. When his mother asked why he was sick, he told her in more detail what Roark 

had been doing in science class. 

 

[maize]

The first article linked claims the student was given low marks on tests when he didn't answer a religious question, but looking at the tests linked above it does not appear that the religiously based question contributed to the grade. His score on the first test, for example, was 40%, an accurate reflection of the 4 out of 10 non religious questions he answered correctly. The religious question was not marked with either an x (wrong) or a check (right) as the others were. I don't know why it was there, but I don't think failure to answer it caused the low grades. Looks like those were legitimately earned. On the second test linked the student answered only 2 out of 17 non religious questions correctly, and achieved a grade of 17%. Again, the religious question at the bottom was not marked either right or wrong and does not appear to contribute to the grade. Unless, of course, students who gave the "correct" answer were given extra credit points?

 

this is definitely an odd case. I have never seen a public school where religion was actively promoted as it seems to be here. That said, I believe there is precedent for allowing religious references etc. in school if they do not promote a specific denomination. References to God or Lord assume a theistic worldview but not a specific denomination or even religion.

[LucyStoner]

WTF?

 

The ACLU couldn't have custom ordered this mess from a catalog any better if they had tried! That's some seriously good fodder for their fundraising appeals. Excuse me, I have to go give them some money...

[justasque]

 Unless, of course, students who gave the "correct" answer were given extra credit points?

 

 

This part of the complaint is about the teacher's behavior *after* the student changed to another school.  (The student's sibling (who is not Buddhist) is also in this teacher's class, and did not change to the other school.)

 

43. Despite Plaintiffs’ objections, Defendant Roark continues to promote religious 

beliefs to students during science class and at other times. 

 

 44. In recent months, she has repeatedly instructed students that evolution is not valid 

as a scientific theory and that God made the world 6,000 years ago. 

 

 45. She demands that students write a Bible verse or “Isn’t it amazing what the Lord 

has made†at the bottom of exams and assignments if they want extra credit. Roark writes “Yes!†

next to the verse or religious affirmation and awards students five additional points when they 

comply with this mandate. 

 

 46. In social studies class, which Roark also teaches, she presents Biblical accounts of 

persons, places, and events as fact. For example, on a handout asking, “What mountain did 

Moses supposedly get the Ten Commandments from,†Roark crossed out the word “supposedly.†

She also has told students that the Bible is “100% true†and that “scientists are slowly finding out 

that everything in the Bible is accurate.†

 

47. Further, she continues to ridicule non-Christians for their beliefs. Last month, 

during a social studies lesson about Hinduism and Buddhism, after asking a student to read aloud 

from the textbook, Roark would make derogatory comments about the discussed minority faith. 

For instance, she told the class during a discussion of Siddhartha that Buddhism is “stupid,†and 

that “no one can stay alive that long without eating.â€

[poppy]

This one is pretty unambiguous. Horribly inappropriate. Those teachers should absolutely feel ashamed of themselves, IMO.

[LucyStoner]

The first article linked claims the student was given low marks on tests when he didn't answer a religious question, but looking at the tests linked above it does not appear that the religiously based question contributed to the grade. His score on the first test, for example, was 40%, an accurate reflection of the 4 out of 10 non religious questions he answered correctly. The religious question was not marked with either an x (wrong) or a check (right) as the others were. I don't know why it was there, but I don't think failure to answer it caused the low grades. Looks like those were legitimately earned. On the second test linked the student answered only 2 out of 17 non religious questions correctly, and achieved a grade of 17%. Again, the religious question at the bottom was not marked either right or wrong and does not appear to contribute to the grade. Unless, of course, students who gave the "correct" answer were given extra credit points?

 

this is definitely an odd case. I have never seen a public school where religion was actively promoted as it seems to be here. That said, I believe there is precedent for allowing religious references etc. in school if they do not promote a specific denomination. References to God or Lord assume a theistic worldview but not a specific denomination or even religion.

It doesn't matter if he is a good student or not, he shouldn't be subjected to this at a taxpayer funded school.

[justasque]

I was also struck by the student's low scores on the tests.  The student is clearly getting nothing academically out of the class.  Whether that is because of stress over the issues raised in the case, or whether it is more to do with the student's situation (Possibly an ESL student?  Possibly with an unusual background/history?  I am reading between the lines here as the ACLU case doesn't go into details about the family in this regard.), or whether the teacher is simply not very good at her job, I don't know.  I hope this kid somehow lands in an educational setting where his beliefs are respected and his educational needs are addressed.  

I was surprised that the ACLU is not asking for private school tuition for the whole family, but they're not going that far.

[justasque]

The first article linked claims the student was given low marks on tests when he didn't answer a religious question, but looking at the tests linked above it does not appear that the religiously based question contributed to the grade. His score on the first test, for example, was 40%, an accurate reflection of the 4 out of 10 non religious questions he answered correctly. The religious question was not marked with either an x (wrong) or a check (right) as the others were. I don't know why it was there, but I don't think failure to answer it caused the low grades. Looks like those were legitimately earned. On the second test linked the student answered only 2 out of 17 non religious questions correctly, and achieved a grade of 17%. Again, the religious question at the bottom was not marked either right or wrong and does not appear to contribute to the grade. Unless, of course, students who gave the "correct" answer were given extra credit points?

 

Maize, the article discusses the test grades, but whether points were or were not given really isn't an important part of the case, as it was laid out in the actual complaint submitted to the court (which is worth reading).  It's not a case where a kid is saying, "Hey, if I had those extra five points, it would have really helped my grade".

[justasque]

this is definitely an odd case. I have never seen a public school where religion was actively promoted as it seems to be here. That said, I believe there is precedent for allowing religious references etc. in school if they do not promote a specific denomination. References to God or Lord assume a theistic worldview but not a specific denomination or even religion.

 

 

While it could apply to a wide variety of Christian denominations, I think the sentence on the test is specifically Christian in nature.  The references to God or Lord in the context of the general school atmosphere in this district seem very specifically Christian to me.  Especially in the context of the rest of the district's practices, I don't think it's inclusive of other, non-Christian religions at all.

 

The rules about religion in school generally flow from the First Amendment.  The goal is to not favor one religion over another, and not to create state endorsement of a particular religion by having state employees leading students in religious activities.  This of course must be balanced by allowing students (and employees) their First Amendment rights to practice their own religion.

 

As a side note, most of the behavior at issue would be appropriate in a private religious school.  (Religious test questions, religious posters on the walls, pictures of Jesus, teacher-led prayer, etc.) It's the fact that this is a public, government school that creates the problem.  (I would add that ridiculing a student because of their faith is, in my opinion, not appropriate in any school,but others may differ on this point.)

[kitten18]

Wow, that is...wow.

 

 

I'm having a hard time understanding how everyone (teacher, principal, superintendent) in this case could be so ignorant.

[poppy]

I agree the teacher's behavior would be fine in a private school. In a public school it is astonishingly inappropriate.

 

 

 

“ISN’T IT AMAZING WHAT THE _____________ HAS MADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!â€

This isn't "just" a theistic worldview, which would be problematic on its own.   It is monothetistic. It even manages to be "wrong" in the belief system of several large monotheistic faiths.  It fits right in with the Judeo-Christian tradition.  I can't even fathom a teacher marking any well-intentioned answer to this question made by a child wrong.

[maize]

 

This part of the complaint is about the teacher's behavior *after* the student changed to another school. (The student's sibling (who is not Buddhist) is also in this teacher's class, and did not change to the other school.)

 

43. Despite Plaintiffs’ objections, Defendant Roark continues to promote religious

beliefs to students during science class and at other times.

 

44. In recent months, she has repeatedly instructed students that evolution is not valid

as a scientific theory and that God made the world 6,000 years ago.

 

45. She demands that students write a Bible verse or “Isn’t it amazing what the Lord

has made†at the bottom of exams and assignments if they want extra credit. Roark writes “Yes!â€

next to the verse or religious affirmation and awards students five additional points when they

comply with this mandate.

 

46. In social studies class, which Roark also teaches, she presents Biblical accounts of

persons, places, and events as fact. For example, on a handout asking, “What mountain did

Moses supposedly get the Ten Commandments from,†Roark crossed out the word “supposedly.â€

She also has told students that the Bible is “100% true†and that “scientists are slowly finding out

that everything in the Bible is accurate.â€

 

 

47. Further, she continues to ridicule non-Christians for their beliefs. Last month,

during a social studies lesson about Hinduism and Buddhism, after asking a student to read aloud

from the textbook, Roark would make derogatory comments about the discussed minority faith.

For instance, she told the class during a discussion of Siddhartha that Buddhism is “stupid,†and

that “no one can stay alive that long without eating.â€

HM, there are Biblical reference to people fasting for forty days. I suppose she didn't have a problem with those?

 

if these claims are accurate, it sounds WAY out of line for a public school...

[Joanne]

Stunning and atrocious. The Christian over-culture gone mad and unrecognized.

 

IMO, "lord" is very specific.

[HRAAB]

If the question wasn't promoting a particular religion, then his answer of Lord Boda should not have received a question mark.  I think it's fairly obvious that the teacher was looking for a specific answer.

 

It boggles my mind that this can happen in a public school.

[justasque]

When I first started reading about this case, I was thinking of the school culture as coming from a general Christian perspective.  
However, this excerpt from the complaint seems to paint a picture of a very denomination-specific set of Christian beliefs.
 

Negreet faculty members also sometimes distribute religious literature to students. 

 

For example, on one occasion earlier this school year, a faculty member gave M.L. and the rest of his class copies of a book from the “Truth for Youth†program.

Published by Revival Fires International ministry of West Monroe, Louisiana, the “Truth for Youth†Bibles consist of the entire New Testament, along with cartoon tracts that promote Christian beliefs, denounce evolution, spread scientifically inaccurate information about birth control and sex, and warn students about the evils of rock music, drunkenness, pornography, premarital sex, homosexuality, sorcery, witchcraft, and other subjects.

 

 A detailed summary of the Truth for Youth program can be found at Truth for Youth 

Bible, Revival Fires International, http://timtodd.org/truthforyouth.html

[kitten18]

 

When I first started reading about this case, I was thinking of the school culture as coming from a general Christian perspective.

However, this excerpt from the complaint seems to paint a picture of a very denomination-specific set of Christian beliefs.

 

Negreet faculty members also sometimes distribute religious literature to students.

 

For example, on one occasion earlier this school year, a faculty member gave M.L. and the rest of his class copies of a book from the “Truth for Youth†program.

 

Published by Revival Fires International ministry of West Monroe, Louisiana, the “Truth for Youth†Bibles consist of the entire New Testament, along with cartoon tracts that promote Christian beliefs, denounce evolution, spread scientifically inaccurate information about birth control and sex, and warn students about the evils of rock music, drunkenness, pornography, premarital sex, homosexuality, sorcery, witchcraft, and other subjects.

 

A detailed summary of the Truth for Youth program can be found at Truth for Youth

Bible, Revival Fires International, http://timtodd.org/truthforyouth.html

I don't even know what to say. That is just outrageous.

 31. On one occasion, the final question of an exam required students to fill in the blank 

to this question: “ISN’T IT AMAZING WHAT THE _____________ HAS 

MADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!†See Ex. A, a copy of the exam.

 

Clearly, the correct answer here is "Teacher".

[trulycrabby]

I am reakly, really amazed that these people still have jobs in the public schools.

[Slartibartfast]

WTF?

 

The ACLU couldn't have custom ordered this mess from a catalog any better if they had tried! That's some seriously good fodder for their fundraising appeals. Excuse me, I have to go give them some money...

 

I agree. They deserve to be sued, the brazenness of it all is astonishing.

[justasque]

I am reakly, really amazed that these people still have jobs in the public schools.

 

 

Who would fire them?  Schools are locally controlled.  Lacking a lawsuit or state or federal intervention, the teacher is only going to get fired if the principal is not OK with her actions.  The principal is only going to get fired if the superintendent is not OK with their actions.  The superintendent is only going to get fired if the school board, made up of local residents, is not OK with their actions.  The school board is only going to get voted out if the taxpayers/residents are not OK with their actions.  If the values/actions of the officials involved are typical of their community, then the only way things will change is if a family stands up, like this one has, and sues the district plus makes a federal civil rights complaint.  

 

The federal complaint says, about the superintendent, who would normally be tasked with making sure that teachers and principals are following federal law regarding religion in public schools:

 

37. Outraged over Roark’s treatment of C.C., Scott and Sharon Lane contacted Superintendent Ebarb and explained what had happened. Although Ebarb indicated that she would look into the matter, she also told them that “this is the Bible Belt,†and recommended that they simply tolerate Roark’s [the science teacher's] proselytization and harassment. 

 

 38. Unsatisfied, the Lanes met with Ebarb to follow up. They discussed Roark’s treatment of C.C., as well as the general promotion of Christianity by faculty and administrators at Negreet. During the meeting, Ebarb was unreceptive to Plaintiffs’ concerns and repeated her earlier admonition that they were “in the Bible Belt†and should simply accept the pervasiveness of official Christianity in Sabine Parish public schools. 

 

 39. Ebarb defended Roark specifically, declaring that “[t]eachers have religious freedom.†She further stated that “if they were in a different country,†Plaintiffs would see “that country’s religion everywhere,†and that, therefore, they “shouldn’t be offended†to “see God here.†Purporting to illustrate her point further, she noted that, because she did not find it offensive that “the lady who cuts [her] toenails has a statue of Buddha,†Plaintiffs should not be bothered by Roark’s in-class proselytization. She then wondered whether C.C. “has to be raised Buddhist†and even asked whether he could “change†his faith. The Lanes were floored by Ebarb’s implication that C.C. should change his faith to fit in. 

 

 40. In the end, the only recourse Ebarb offered Plaintiffs was to transfer C.C. to a different school 25 miles away where, in her words, “there are more Asians.†She did not, however, offer to provide school bus transportation or, alternatively, funds to cover Plaintiffs’ private expense of transporting C.C. to the new school.

 

41. Ebarb’s dismissive and offensive response to Plaintiffs’ concerns did not end there. The day after her meeting with Ebarb, Principal Wright [the school principal] read a letter from Ebarb [the superintendent] over Negreet's [the school's] public-address system. The letter stated that Ebarb [the superintendent] approved of Wright’s [the principal's] practices in general and that she approved of the fact that the teachers at Negreet acted consistent with their strong religious beliefs. 

 

[bolding, font size/style, and bracketed comments/clarifications mine]

 

[bolt.]

I'll just add my voice to the "absolutely appalling" camp. This issue is so blatant that its hard to imagine there being two sides to it.

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree that it is completely appalling and outrageous. Every one of the educators (and I feel I'm using that term loosely) involved should be fired. 

[Mrs Mungo]

Just more proof of how the Christian Taliban-mindset is trying to slime it's way into our society.

It's disgusting. People need to stand up to these morons and send them packing.

 

You HONESTLY think it's fair to label them as Taliban? They aren't blowing up girls for going to school or throwing acid on child brides for running away from abusive husbands. Your comment is ALMOST as appalling as the original story. I don't agree with the far right conservative mindset. I think that they should teach at private Christian schools, if they don't want to be inclusive. But, I cannot compare them to the Taliban. Wow. 

[chiguirre]

When I first read about this case, I honestly thought it couldn't possibly be true and that the ACLU was taking a page from HSLDA's fundraising tactics. However, those photos look very damning unless the school is claiming that they're photoshopped.

[justasque]

Just more proof of how the Christian Taliban-mindset is trying to slime it's way into our society.

It's disgusting. People need to stand up to these morons and send them packing.

 

 

I think this is an unhelpful mischaracterization of the situation.  

 

I am assuming that many of those involved simply don't know any better.  They have likely been raised in, and spent their lives in, a non-diverse culture. They have probably never walked in minority shoes.  They likely do not understand First Amendment church/state issues regarding schools, or the history of court decisions that attempt to balance the right of students to and teachers to religious expression vs. teachers acting as agents of the state leading students in religious activity.  They probably have never had any training on this issue.  They are probably well-meaning people, who, through evangelism, most likely feel they are giving the students the most important thing of all - a chance at eternal salvation.  They think they are doing the right thing.

 

The majority of the community is most likely supportive of the administration, otherwise it would not have gone on for so long.  Their children are, for better or for worse, getting the kind of education they'd otherwise have to pay private school tuition for.  They are not likely to, as a community, "stand up to these morons and send them packing" without outside pressure.

 

The superintendent's comment that "because she did not find it offensive that “the lady who cuts [her] toenails has a statue of Buddha,†Plaintiffs should not be bothered by Roark’s in-class proselytization is not too far from some comments we've seen here on the boards on various church/state issues.  It shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the difference between personal offense or discomfort with religious content, and the constitutionality of said content.  It doesn't necessarily mean they are "disgusting" people, or "morons", or "trying to slime their way into society".

[Mrs Mungo]

They likely do not understand First Amendment church/state issues regarding schools, or the history of court decisions that attempt to balance the right of students to and teachers to religious expression vs. teachers acting as agents of the state leading students in religious activity.  They probably have never had any training on this issue.

I think I probably disagree with this. The vast majority of teachers and administrators do receive training on constitutional issues. If they can't understand them and/or they choose not to follow them in an act of rebellion (the latter is more often the case in my experience), then they don't deserve the public's trust with children.

 

I do agree that the inflammatory rhetoric involved in the post you quoted is unproductive.

[justasque]

I think I probably disagree with this. The vast majority of teachers and administrators do receive training on constitutional issues. If they can't understand them and/or they choose not to follow them in an act of rebellion (the latter is more often the case in my experience), then they don't deserve the public's trust with children.

 

I do agree that the inflammatory rhetoric involved in the post you quoted is unproductive.

 

You might be right.  I'm all about benefit of the doubt, but sometimes it is undeserved.  :-(

[BrookValley.]

I read Dot's post as commenting on the foothold that Christian extremism is trying to gain here. Now, maybe it's not fair to label this specific teacher/the administrators as Taliban in this situation (read: I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, Mrs. Mungo), but the fact remains that there is an ugly undercurrent of far-right wing, extremist Christians who do carry out acts of terrorism/violence and I see nothing wrong with comparing them to the Taliban. Terrorism is terrorism, no matter the flavor, and there's a fringe element to every group. You have to wonder when something this blatant occurs where the underlying sentiment is coming from, or just how hateful it might be.

[HRAAB]

I agree that comparing Christian extremism to the Taliban does nothing to further this discussion and does not represent most Christians in this country, I do think I can understand the sentiment to some extent.  I have family members who want to see a Christian theocracy in this country so it can be the Godly, biblical country that God intended for America.  I have been part of a couple groups where a few people believed the correct, Godly, form of government would be a Catholic monarchy.  I have never heard any of these people promoting killing girls for going to school or any of the other abhorrent actions the Taliban is responsible for but then you can read the writings of John Rushdoony who believed in re-establishing Old Testament law which would include stoning those guilty of adultery and homosexuality.  I don't think the educators in Louisiana are part of that extreme, fringe movement, but I can see how someone could consider that small subset the Christian equivalent of the Taliban.  

[Mrs Mungo]

I know way too much about the Taliban to agree that the mindset is remotely similar.

[BrookValley.]

I know way too much about the Taliban to agree that the mindset is remotely similar.

 

How is an extremist mindset of any religion any different?

 

Note, I'm not saying that the teacher in this case has *that* particular kind of mindset. I don't know. But how is an extremist fringe of Christianity any different from the Taliban? The majority of terrorist attacks on American soil have been carried out by fringe Christians, white supremacists, or radical far right-wing nutjobs, not the Taliban. The point I think we're trying to make here is that extremism in any form is dangerous and yes, there are pockets of it here in the U.S.--and that is scary.

[Mrs Mungo]

How is an extremist mindset of any religion any different?

 

Note, I'm not saying that the teacher in this case has *that* particular kind of mindset. I don't know. But how is an extremist fringe of Christianity any different from the Taliban? The majority of terrorist attacks on American soil have been carried out by fringe Christians, white supremacists, or radical far right-wing nutjobs, not the Taliban. The point I think we're trying to make here is that extremism in any form is dangerous and yes, there are pockets of it here in the U.S.--and that is scary.

When you use phrases like "Taliban" in connection with incidents involving Christians like *this one*, then you make it all too easy for people to dismiss your arguments altogether. Do I think *these people* are Christian extremists who don't want girls going to college and want to stone gay people? Ummm, no, there is zero evidence for that.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm glad you know so much about the Taliban, Mungo. Thiis not an idea I made up. Google the phrase and you will see tons of info comparing Taliban mindset with extremism of some Christians.

Are you saying that it's okay to make this comparison because it isn't your original thought? I don't really understand the point of your statement here. I can stroll through the internet and find all kinds of arguments, that doesn't make them logical or sound.

[BrookValley.]

When you use phrases like "Taliban" in connection with incidents involving Christians like *this one*, then you make it all too easy for people to dismiss your arguments altogether. Do I think *these people* are Christian extremists who don't want girls going to college and want to stone gay people? Ummm, no, there is zero evidence for that.

I didn't say these people are *that* kind of Christian, either--I went out of my way to say I'm not making that inference. I agree, we have no evidence for that. I was only making the point that radicals of any stripe are dangerous.

 

I do wonder about the mindset of someone who would overstep their boundaries in the way this teacher has. I'm curious how people come to the conclusion that they are entitled to act that way (as a professional in a public school) and the mindset that feeds it. It remains, however, that I never assumed or said this particular teacher is a part of some violent, fundamentalist cult.

[Mrs Mungo]

I didn't say these people are *that* kind of Christian, either--I went out of my way to say I'm not making that inference. I agree, we have no evidence for that. I was only making the point that radicals of any stripe are dangerous.

I don't think very many people would disagree with your last point. My point is, what does it have to do with this discussion?

 

I do wonder about the mindset of someone who would overstep their boundaries in the way this teacher has. I'm curious how people come to the conclusion that they are entitled to act that way (as a professional in a public school) and the mindset that feeds it. It remains, however, that I never assumed or said this particular teacher is a part of some violent, fundamentalist cult.

Unless we do believe the teacher is part of a violent fundamentalist cult, then it is irrelevant and distracting to the actual issue.

[albeto.]

this is definitely an odd case. I have never seen a public school where religion was actively promoted as it seems to be here.

 

Examples of religion promoted in public schools in the United States are a dime a dozen. Some of the grossest violations include assemblies with christian entertainment on school property during school hours; motivational assemblies based on judeo-christian theocratic morality including telling boys to be manly, and girls to stop being sluts because, you know, their mothers probably hate them; handing out bibles at school, teaching creationism as science, and the like. Here's a list of recent activities reported by one organization alone (Freedom From Faith Foundation): http://ffrf.org/legal/other-legal-successes. World Net Daily, a fantastic resource for knowing what kinds of fears are flowing through the christian community, offers this map, called "Battleground schools fighting over sex, evolution, bible."

 

 

[Slartibartfast]

Not that I support religious extremism but  the Taliban has actually burned thousands of miles of fertile farmland in their scorched earth policies, they starved hundreds of  thousands of people by denying them UN aid, they massacred thousands of civilians. I am not aware of Christians killing school girls, selling women as sex slaves, or selling opium.

 

To compare the two is extreme hyperbole and not at all conducive to respectful discourse.

[Slartibartfast]

 World Net Daily, a fantastic resource for knowing what kinds of fears are flowing through the christian community, offers this map, called "Battleground schools fighting over sex, evolution, bible."

 

 

 

 

World Net Daily is a crazy place.  The words "World Net Daily" and "fantastic resource" do not ever belong in the same sentence. If you want to use them as an example of what Christians think I assure you that most Christians are going to find that to be an insult.

 

It is a crazy conspiracy website, did you actually read articles before using them as a resource?

[albeto.]

World Net Daily is a crazy place.  The words "World Net Daily" and "fantastic resource" do not ever belong in the same sentence. If you want to use them as an example of what Christians think I assure you that most Christians are going to find that to be an insult.

 

It is a crazy conspiracy website, did you actually read articles before using them as a resource?

 

I'm quite familiar with WND, and quite familiar with how highly it is regarded by christians you would call "crazy" to take it seriously (not a small number, btw). The insult is not that I would reference a "crazy conspiracy website," it's that you would label people who apply and defend their faith differently than you as "crazy" and "conspiratorial." It almost sounds like it's okay for one christian to criticize the beliefs of another, but not for a nonchristian to do so. 

 

Regardless of the resource, the map shows places where religious penetration is being called out as unconstitutional and inappropriate. This is in response to the comment that this one school in Louisiana is unique in promoting religion in the public school. 

 

 

 

Not that I support religious extremism but  the Taliban has actually burned thousands of miles of fertile farmland in their scorched earth policies, they starved hundreds of  thousands of people by denying them UN aid, they massacred thousands of civilians. I am not aware of Christians killing school girls, selling women as sex slaves, or selling opium.

 

To compare the two is extreme hyperbole and not at all conducive to respectful discourse.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it would help to think of the similarity as not in the behavior, as Dot explained, but in the mindset. The similarity in mindset is one that promotes religious belief as truth regardless of the topic of conversation or context. The similarity in mindset is in defending the "honor" of the perceived deity against such "offenses" as blatant and unrepentant acts of blasphemy. The mindset is in encouraging and/or coercing children to be obedient to authority rather than question, or face negative consequences, even publicly. The mindset is in claiming one's deity is all powerful, all loving, all just, all perfect, all wise, omnipotent, and for some reason personally invested in our behavior, all based on faith alone regardless of the lack of evidence or any evidence to the contrary, and how vital it is for young children to accept this as fact and not question it. This mindset is, arguably, identical, even if the expression of that mindset is not.

[Slartibartfast]

 

I'm quite familiar with WND, and quite familiar with how highly it is regarded by christians you would call "crazy" to take it seriously (not a small number, btw). The insult is not that I would reference a "crazy conspiracy website," it's that you would label people who apply and defend their faith differently than you as "crazy" and "conspiratorial." It almost sounds like it's okay for one christian to criticize the beliefs of another, but not for a nonchristian to do so. 

 

Regardless of the resource, the map shows places where religious penetration is being called out as unconstitutional and inappropriate. This is in response to the comment that this one school in Louisiana is unique in promoting religion in the public school. 

 

 

 

Perhaps it would help to think of the similarity as not in the behavior, as Dot explained, but in the mindset. The similarity in mindset is one that promotes religious belief as truth regardless of the topic of conversation or context. The similarity in mindset is in defending the "honor" of the perceived deity against such "offenses" as blatant and unrepentant acts of blasphemy. The mindset is in encouraging and/or coercing children to be obedient to authority rather than question, or face negative consequences, even publicly. The mindset is in claiming one's deity is all powerful, all loving, all just, all perfect, all wise, omnipotent, and for some reason personally invested in our behavior, all based on faith alone regardless of the lack of evidence or any evidence to the contrary, and how vital it is for young children to accept this as fact and not question it. This mindset is, arguably, identical, even if the expression of that mindset is not.

 

 

Then you know very few rational Christians if you believe that many regard it so highly. Many of the articles on that site have nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

 

If pointing out hyperbole is not productive to discussion is being interpreted as I am saying non-Christians may not criticize Christians I just don't know what to say. It sounds like more hyperbole to me.

[Desert Strawberry]

I'm a Buddhist in (a different, more progressive part of) Louisiana. I'm not so surprised. The principal's response is about what I expect. "[shug] That's how it is here. Your kids need to learn some morals. You can't disagree with that. It's not THAT Christian." Because clearly my faith is immaterial, immoral, and unimportant. 

When I say we homeschool (in part) for religious reasons, this is exactly why. This case is more blatant than most, but the undercurrent is there. I have read arguments-on this board, even- that public schools belong to the community. If the community is Christian, the school should be, too.

[[email protected]]

Locking this thread and encouraging those of you who would like to discuss the issue without rhetorical excesses to start another thread that doesn't bring the Taliban into the conversation. Not helpful, people.

 

Moderator