There be dragons! Sherlock S3 discussions

[Angie in VA]

Um_2_4, I feel your pain.  I'm going to DVR Sherlock on PBS tonight and watch it tomorrow, just to see if anything has changed.

 

Well? Report back to us when you've watched it. 

[Word Nerd]

If you didn't like anything about the first episode of the season, you'll probably hate the second one.

[Mom in High Heels]

Well? Report back to us when you've watched it. 

 

I didn't notice anything.  I think that's an urban legend!  ;)

[8circles]

I think I'm souring on this show. I don't know what it is. Sherlock just isn't at all likeable to me, in any way. He's not even interesting anymore, he's just a brilliant jerk. Its not even love-to-hate, I just can't stand him. On the other hand, I swoon over Watson. So, yes, I'll keep watching.

[Beth S]

Well? Report back to us when you've watched it. 

 

Well, I rewatched S3E1 last night, while dh watched it for the first time.

 

One thing I missed the first time.  Sherlock looks at Mary outside on the sidewalk, and about 100 adjectives swirl around her.

I want to go back & rewatch that . . . but I definitely saw a specific word that is a SPOILER, if you were observant enough!

[Angie in VA]

I didn't notice anything.  I think that's an urban legend!   ;)

 

Ok. Good to know. 

[Um_2_4]

Well, I rewatched S3E1 last night, while dh watched it for the first time.

 

One thing I missed the first time.  Sherlock looks at Mary outside on the sidewalk, and about 100 adjectives swirl around her.

I want to go back & rewatch that . . . but I definitely saw a specific word that is a SPOILER, if you were observant enough!

 

Well, I missed spoiler, but I saw some negative things like Liar and I forgot what else, but I kind of assumed it was  because Sherlock was not happy about John and Mary marrying. I should have suspected more was up. ;)

[Slartibartfast]

I think I'm souring on this show. I don't know what it is. Sherlock just isn't at all likeable to me, in any way. He's not even interesting anymore, he's just a brilliant jerk. Its not even love-to-hate, I just can't stand him. On the other hand, I swoon over Watson. So, yes, I'll keep watching.

 

I like the show but I prefer Watson as well.

 

:)

[BarbecueMom]

On the other hand, I swoon over Watson. So, yes, I'll keep watching.

I'm in it for Lestrade. So what that he's about 25 years older than me? :-P

[Slartibartfast]

It cracks me up that Sherlock *never* knows Lestrade's first name!

 

 

In the books his name is only ever given as G. Lestrade so I think it is a joking nod to canon. :)

[Lady Florida.]

I think I'm souring on this show. I don't know what it is. Sherlock just isn't at all likeable to me, in any way. He's not even interesting anymore, he's just a brilliant jerk. Its not even love-to-hate, I just can't stand him. On the other hand, I swoon over Watson. So, yes, I'll keep watching.

 

I'm souring on it too (obviously if you read my posts). I used to like Watson, but I'm getting a little tired of his puppy love for Sherlock. I loved the idea of dropping Sherlock Holmes into the 21st century and seeing how he matches wits with technology and modern day criminals. What I'm getting as the show goes on is not an updated version of Sherlock Holmes, but a show with the same character names and location, but not much else.

 

I'm sure I'm not in the targeted demographic anyway. Those who are really love the show, so I know it's my problem. :)

[Laura Corin]

I'm in it for Lestrade. So what that he's about 25 years older than me? :-P

 

You need to see Room with a View.  It's a charming performance.

 

L

[Word Nerd]

You need to see Room with a View.  It's a charming performance.

 

L

 

Yes! Freddy is adorable! I watched Room with a View years ago and was happy when I recognized him while watching it again several months ago. 

[Word Nerd]

What I'm getting as the show goes on is not an updated version of Sherlock Holmes, but a show with the same character names and location, but not much else.

 

 

I don't agree with that assessment. There are numerous references, nods, and winks to Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes canon in this series—including the third season.

[Lady Florida.]

I don't agree with that assessment. There are numerous references, nods, and winks to Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes canon in this series—including the third season.

 

Yes, there are. But that's all they are. Nods and winks. My point is it's not just a modern day version of Sherlock Holmes, a brilliant detective solving mysteries, which is what I would like. Obviously that's not what most people would like or the show wouldn't be as popular as it is.

 

Edited to include the adjective brilliant. There are plenty of fictional detectives. Few are as brilliant as Holmes.

[Laura Corin]

Yes, there are. But that's all they are. Nods and winks. My point is it's not just a modern day version of Sherlock Holmes, a detective solving mysteries, which is what I would like. Obviously that's not what most people would like or the show wouldn't be as popular as it is.

 

Number three is more like that, if you want to wait around.

 

L

[Angie in VA]

You need to see Room with a View.  It's a charming performance.

 

L

 

Dear Laura, 

I mean what I am about to type in the silliest, most joking manner possible. We Americans say this sometimes. I don't know you well enough, golly, I don't even cyber-know you well enough to say this to you, but I can't help myself:

 

SHUT UP! 

 

**

 

That's Lestrade? Wow!

 

Sorry, SWB! I just saw justasque's new and improved instructions to help me scrub my posts of images, and found this. Sorry you got to it before I did, and, you know, that you have to do this at ALL. 9-13-14

Edited September 13, 2014 by Angie in VA
Photo removed

[Dana]

You need to see Room with a View. It's a charming performance.

 

L

I NEVER would have guessed that was him.

 

"Care for a bath?"

 

:)

[Mom in High Heels]

I think I'm getting closer to talking about Ep3.  Maybe.   I will say this it was NOT what I was expecting, and I seriously disliked Magnussen (or however it's spelled).   Moriarty was a much better villain, plus he was just bat shit crazy (why is that a saying?), and kind of fun.

[Laura Corin]

I think I'm getting closer to talking about Ep3.  Maybe.   I will say this it was NOT what I was expecting, and I seriously disliked Magnussen (or however it's spelled).   Moriarty was a much better villain, plus he was just bat shit crazy (why is that a saying?), and kind of fun.

 

Magnussen was anything but fun.  But I enjoyed the episode.

 

L

[Laura Corin]

I NEVER would have guessed that was him.

 

"Care for a bath?"

 

:)

 

I guess that means we've seen Lestrade's bare bottom.

 

L

[Mom in High Heels]

Magnussen was anything but fun.  But I enjoyed the episode.

 

L

 

Hey, did I spell it right???  Yeah, he was not fun, and really, I just wasn't impressed with his "reveal."  Blah.  Still, I did enjoy the episode and felt like Sherlock was more the Sherlock of old, and a bit more like the Sherlock from the books too.  He frequently works just outside the law, but I really liked how far they took this one.  I felt it was very Conan-Doyle Sherlcoky.  Okay, I can't talk anymore about it! ;)

[Angie in VA]

I have only watched S3E3 once myself. I'm working up to it. 

[JeneralMom]

My problem with S3e1 was that Sherlock's cruelty seemed very purposeful and malicious rather than sort of unconscious like in previous seasons. And then the whole Molly thing is just annoying...she's actually the person who matters most to him? No way.

 

I caught some of the words around Mary so can't wait for episode 2.

[Laura Corin]

My problem with S3e1 was that Sherlock's cruelty seemed very purposeful and malicious rather than sort of unconscious like in previous seasons. And then the whole Molly thing is just annoying...she's actually the person who matters most to him? No way.

 

I caught some of the words around Mary so can't wait for episode 2.

 

She matters most, 'She made it all possible.'  She was key to the death/disappearance scheme.

 

L

[elegantlion]

I even got a smile out of ds in episode 3. Scott's Moriarty is the best bad guy ever, according to him. Well next to Heath Ledger's Joker. 

[JeneralMom]

She matters most, 'She made it all possible.' She was key to the death/disappearance scheme.

 

L

I get that she made the disappearance possible but the way both my mum (who is here visiting and watching) and i interpreted that scene was in a very romantic "you really are the most important person in my whole life" and I have just never gotten that impression from previous episoded. Are we looking at it differently than most people?

[Amy in NH]

I rewatched Empty Hearse last night.  Here's my take:

 

I didn't like the way Sherlock revealed himself to John the first time I watched it.  This time, I think I got it.  Sherlock was so happy to be seeing John again, he thought this would be a fun way to do it.  Because he so easily sets aside his emotions, he didn't anticipate John's emotional pain over the past two years until he saw him face to face.  Then he realized what he had done. 

 

There was quite a lot of mystery involved, but I didn't pick up on the little details that were a part of the mystery on first watching.  It all fit together much better on second watching.

 

I loved the way he acknowledged Molly's feelings for him.  He had always danced around that in the past.  While the fall-kiss was super-hot, the kiss on the cheek was even better. 

 

DS16 thinks it's a riot that they included all of the fandom speculations/obsessions in presenting the ways he could have survived the fall.

[Mom in High Heels]

I get that she made the disappearance possible but the way both my mum (who is here visiting and watching) and i interpreted that scene was in a very romantic "you really are the most important person in my whole life" and I have just never gotten that impression from previous episoded. Are we looking at it differently than most people?

 

If you go back and look at previous episodes, you can see that Sherlock is quite confused by Molly much of the time.  He absolutely takes her for granted, and frequently overlooks her, but he does notice her (he notices her lipstick and hair changes).  He can't quite figure her out, even though he can figure out pretty much everyone else.  He tries to save her heartache by telling her about "Jim," even if he didn't qo about it in the best way.  He knows how she feels about him, but he doesn't really know how he feels about her.  He's not into "feelings."  IMO, he came to start understanding, when he really needed her in S2E3.  Moriarty made the same mistake as Sherlock WRT Molly.  Moriarty didn't seem to think she was important either.  While Molly had the skills to help Sherlock, he really could have staged it with the help of loads of other people.  He turned to her, because he trusted her, which is something he doesn't do with many people.  The only other people he seems to trust are John and Mrs. Hudson (he certainly doesn't trust Mycroft), and IMO, that makes her very special.  He  seemed quite sad when he mentioned her engagement.  BTW, the looks on everyone's faces when she introduced Tom was HILARIOUS.  I wish Tom had said something about Molly buying him the coat (I'm assuming she did).

[Word Nerd]

I get that she made the disappearance possible but the way both my mum (who is here visiting and watching) and i interpreted that scene was in a very romantic "you really are the most important person in my whole life" and I have just never gotten that impression from previous episoded. Are we looking at it differently than most people?

 

I don't think it was intended to be romantic at all.

[elegantlion]

I rewatched Empty Hearse last night.  Here's my take:

 

I didn't like the way Sherlock revealed himself to John the first time I watched it.  This time, I think I got it.  Sherlock was so happy to be seeing John again, he thought this would be a fun way to do it.  Because he so easily sets aside his emotions, he didn't anticipate John's emotional pain over the past two years until he saw him face to face.  Then he realized what he had done. 

 

 

 

I've been thinking about this and came to this conclusion. Sherlock has never had friends, he has probably never apologized for his behavior his entire life. What do you do when you're young and trying to mend fences with someone? You use humor, you joke, you poke. It is immature and campy because you really don't know how to handle conflict with someone you care about. Sherlock, while being a genius, is still at the little boy stage in his relationship with John. John may be the first person he's ever tried to act normal for. He thought it would work. And it never dawned on him to consider John's reaction to his being gone. John likes me, of course, he'll welcome me home. It'll be fun. 

[Amy in NH]

Of season 3, I've only seen episode 1. The 'reveal' WAS a little too campy, but I LOVED how he kept attacking Sherlock in increasingly low-brow locations hahahaha

 

My problem was the scene in the train car, after he'd turned off the bomb. It seemed forced and gratuitous. But I am just being critical for the sake of being critical, because you can bet I stayed up an hour and a half past my bedtime, to ensure I watched it uninterripted, and will do so for the next two episodes too :-D

 

I think he really wanted John to forgive him.

[JeneralMom]

Okay I guess I'm the only one who hates the Molly romance arc. She irritates me. I always assumed there was a woman in his past especially after his mum says something about some mystery female worrying about him and I thin Mycroft made a reference to a female once. But, I've only seen episode 1 of season 3.

[Word Nerd]

nm  :laugh:

[Dana]

I guess that means we've seen Lestrade's bare bottom.

 

L

 

It's been a long time, but I'd think we saw more....

But I may be misremembering.

 

[Matryoshka]

It's been a long time, but I'd think we saw more....

But I may be misremembering.

 

No, you're not misremembering... :lol:

[minuway]

I'm late to this because I only just got to watch it yesterday - but O MY GOSH - that reveal to John has been bothering me all day. So un-Sherlock. Just weird. In the book, he does follow him in disguise, but he reveals himself in private, and he has a clue that its going to stun John, and doesn't make a joke of it. That was just so weird. Otherwise I was very happy...

[Mom in High Heels]

You're not the only one. She's ADORABLE, but to actually get there with Sherlock, after all that time...geez. That would be so blah. I liked him with the domanatrix. "Cute" isn't going to cut it. He needs exceptional brains.

 

Molly is smart!  She's got extended medical knowledge, and social skills, except when it comes to Sherlock, of course.  In S1 & S2, she was intimidated by him, but in S3, she came into her own and was far less cowed by him.  She helped him stage his death.  I'm pretty sure she'd have to be fairly smart for that.  

 

I HATED him with Irene.  I did not like her character at all.  She was too...something.  I don't know what it is, but she just rubs me the wrong way.  Plus, she's EVIL!

[minuway]

You guys know Irene Adler was a character in the original books right? She was always the only woman he ever loved - or at least came as close as possible for him to loving (at least that was my impression). I don't mean to be a Sherlock (book) nerd here, but that was one of my favorite episodes - they got it SO RIGHT from a modern perspective - Irene was such an edgy, uncomfortable character -  well, some would disagree with me because she was so overtly sexual, but I think she was spot on. She wasn't evil so much as intensely intelligent and self focused.

[Laura Corin]

I get that she made the disappearance possible but the way both my mum (who is here visiting and watching) and i interpreted that scene was in a very romantic "you really are the most important person in my whole life" and I have just never gotten that impression from previous episoded. Are we looking at it differently than most people?

 

I didn't see it as romantic - more as an acknowledgement of her loyalty to him.

 

L

[Laura Corin]

You guys know Irene Adler was a character in the original books right? She was always the only woman he ever loved - or at least came as close as possible for him to loving (at least that was my impression). I don't mean to be a Sherlock (book) nerd here, but that was one of my favorite episodes - they got it SO RIGHT from a modern perspective - Irene was such an edgy, uncomfortable character -  well, some would disagree with me because she was so overtly sexual, but I think she was spot on. She wasn't evil so much as intensely intelligent and self focused.

 

I'm in two minds about this.  I didn't like the episode at the time - I thought that making her so sexual diminished the Irene Adler character (I didn't object to the sex per se, just in the context of the character).  Thinking about it though, the combination of sex and intelligence might be just right to break through to Sherlock - in Victorian terms, IA is sexually attractive too, if I remember rightly.

 

L

[Mom in High Heels]

You guys know Irene Adler was a character in the original books right? She was always the only woman he ever loved - or at least came as close as possible for him to loving (at least that was my impression). I don't mean to be a Sherlock (book) nerd here, but that was one of my favorite episodes - they got it SO RIGHT from a modern perspective - Irene was such an edgy, uncomfortable character -  well, some would disagree with me because she was so overtly sexual, but I think she was spot on. She wasn't evil so much as intensely intelligent and self focused.

 

Oh, I know she was from the books, I just really disliked her in the modern version.  They did manage to mostly keep to the storyline from the original books, with a few notable exceptions (her marriage being one), so that was good, but they made her the bad guy of the story, and that's evil.  In the original, Sherlock discovered that she wasn't really the "bad guy" in the situation (though she wasn't exactly innocent), and admired her for her skill and cunning in protecting herself.  I liked her in the book (she was only ever actually in one, and mentioned briefly in 2 or 3 others, IIRC), but in the show, I just didn't like her.  In cannon, Sherlock called her THE woman, but IMO, not because he loved her, but because she was THE woman who had bested him.  There was never any mention of any kind of love or affection in the books, only admiration for her brain.  From Scandal in Bohemia:

 

To Sherlock Holmes she is always the woman. I have seldom heard him mention her under any other name. In his eyes she eclipses and predominates the whole of her sex. It was not that he felt any emotion akin to love for Irene Adler. All emotions, and that one particularly, were abhorrent to his cold, precise but admirably balanced mind.

[Laura Corin]

I've been thinking about Molly.  I think that what worries me about the character is that I don't believe in her intelligence.  

 

As far as I understand, she's a consultant at Barts in pathology.  That's not a small post - Barts is a prestigious hospital.  

 

But I just don't believe it.  It's not that she's quiet - I just don't see the mind working underneath.

 

L

[JeneralMom]

You guys know Irene Adler was a character in the original books right? She was always the only woman he ever loved - or at least came as close as possible for him to loving (at least that was my impression). I don't mean to be a Sherlock (book) nerd here, but that was one of my favorite episodes - they got it SO RIGHT from a modern perspective - Irene was such an edgy, uncomfortable character - well, some would disagree with me because she was so overtly sexual, but I think she was spot on. She wasn't evil so much as intensely intelligent and self focused.

I adored Irene and could see Sherlock with her. Molly is very milk-toast for me. Very intelligent but no backbone.

 

There is a lot of literature devoted to what could have happened between Sherlock and Irene...did he spend his missing years with her? Did they have a live child (Nero Wolf)?

[Word Nerd]

You guys know Irene Adler was a character in the original books right? She was always the only woman he ever loved - or at least came as close as possible for him to loving (at least that was my impression). I don't mean to be a Sherlock (book) nerd here, but that was one of my favorite episodes - they got it SO RIGHT from a modern perspective - Irene was such an edgy, uncomfortable character - well, some would disagree with me because she was so overtly sexual, but I think she was spot on. She wasn't evil so much as intensely intelligent and self focused.

He had a great deal of respect for her but never loved her.

[BarbecueMom]

I've been thinking about Molly. I think that what worries me about the character is that I don't believe in her intelligence.

 

As far as I understand, she's a consultant at Barts in pathology. That's not a small post - Barts is a prestigious hospital.

 

But I just don't believe it. It's not that she's quiet - I just don't see the mind working underneath.

 

L

There's a Moffat-created female character for you. I don't think he knows how to write her to show her intelligence. I want to like Molly, I like the idea of Molly, but her characterization is completely tied to how men (and Sherlock in particular) see her.

[minuway]

Ok, so Irene in the modern Sherlock *was* kind of icky, I totally agree. I definitely like Molly way more as a person.  But Irene in the book was an blackmailing "adventuress." Ie, a courtesann. So pretty sexually jolting stuff, so a blackmailing dominatrix was effective in communicating the level of edgy in modern terms I thought. 

 

I agree that its pretty unclear that Sherlock really ever *loves* Irene - its more that its that he intellectually admires her more than he admires any other woman, and for him, that's as close to truly loving as he comes. This is personally why I have enjoyed the Laurie King Mary Russel series so much - even though I don't really read modern mystery much - but she really nails a really believable partner for Sherlock. Its lots of fun.  

[Angie in VA]

Having read none of the original works, I say this: the modern day Irene, while gay, was attracted to SH. "I felt your pulse. Pupils dilated." Go, Sherlock! Figure out that key code! But he enjoys and respects Irene's intelligence.

 

I can totally see Molly doing the hand wringing, pacing thing, but she sees Sherlock like no one else does. "You look sad when you think he can't see you." I wish she were a bit deeper so there could be a romance there, down the line. But, we all know that Sherlock considers himself married to his work. Still, at the beginning of The Empty Hearse, that kiss made me swoon.  :svengo:

 

 

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

There's a Moffat-created female character for you. I don't think he knows how to write her to show her intelligence. I want to like Molly, I like the idea of Molly, but her characterization is completely tied to how men (and Sherlock in particular) see her.

 

:iagree:  Joss Whedon needs to consult. :tongue_smilie:

[Mom in High Heels]

Having read none of the original works, I say this: the modern day Irene, while gay, was attracted to SH. "I felt your pulse. Pupils dilated." Go, Sherlock! Figure out that key code! But he enjoys and respects Irene's intelligence.

 

I can totally see Molly doing the hand wringing, pacing thing, but she sees Sherlock like no one else does. "You look sad when you think he can't see you." I wish she were a bit deeper so there could be a romance there, down the line. But, we all know that Sherlock considers himself married to his work. Still, at the beginning of The Empty Hearse, that kiss made me swoon.  :svengo:

 

Technically, I think she was bisexual, as she has clearly been with men too.  As a modern day 'courtesan,' she would have probably gone for both sexes, especially if she was in it for information and blackmailing.  Besides, being THAT close to such a hot Sherlock, how could she NOT be turned on?  :D  Oh, and I hated that "ringtone" she put on Sherlock's phone.

 

She was icky.  While she was gorgeous, she was just in no way a likable character.  The Irene in the RDJ movies (played by Rachel McAdams), while still not a "good guy" is at least is somewhat likable.

 

:iagree:  Joss Whedon needs to consult. :tongue_smilie:

 

Hahaha!  Yes, indeed!  Molly needs to become a less annoying version of Skye on SHEILD.  I don't want her to be too kick ass, because that would be too much of a departure from what she's been already.  She does seem to be a little less cowed by Sherlock in S3, but I'd like to see her character become more confident in S4 (WHEN WILL WE GET S4‽‽‽)

 

Ok, so Irene in the modern Sherlock *was* kind of icky, I totally agree. I definitely like Molly way more as a person.   Yeah, she is likable!  I'd like her to grow more though.  I loved when she slapped Sherlock.  I was like "Go Molly!!!"   But Irene in the book was an blackmailing "adventuress." Ie, a courtesann. So pretty sexually jolting stuff, so a blackmailing dominatrix was effective in communicating the level of edgy in modern terms I thought.   Agreed.  Still, she was just icky and incredibly unlikeable.

 

I agree that its pretty unclear that Sherlock really ever *loves* Irene - its more that its that he intellectually admires her more than he admires any other woman, and for him, that's as close to truly loving as he comes. ​This is absolutely true in the books, but this series seems to want to explore Sherlock's recognizing that he can have feelings for people, and still do his sleuthing.  If they do continue on this vein, I can see how it will cause him confusion and interfere with his sleeting at first, but then he will have to learn how to continue his job while acknowledging that he can and does have feelings.  This is personally why I have enjoyed the Laurie King Mary Russel series so much - even though I don't really read modern mystery much - but she really nails a really believable partner for Sherlock. Its lots of fun.