Writing & LA, how to prevent overkill?

[Trivium Academy]

I think the overall problem I have is that I don't want miss something or fail to teach something that is necessary but now I don't want overkill either. I want efficient and effective (who is the efficiency expert? I remember reading that there's a talented mother here that has a degree in efficiency!).

 

First I should preface that I believe the best way to teach language arts is through practice. If you want to learn how to write, you have to write. If you want to learn grammar, you have to write, etc. Of course we need a little hand-holding and good references to learn and teach from.

 

Here's what I have and I need either reassurance that I'm not going overboard or a kick in the butt with suggestions on how to be more efficient.

 

1. Primary Language Lessons (10-15 min) (and similar CM LA products)

Teaches:

- Oral narrations through picture (art) study, reading selections (fables, poetry, excerpts of good literature, Bible stories)

- Written narrations (same sources as above)

- Copywork and Dictation

- Mechanics and usage: capitalization, punctuation, writing letters, teaching of correct forms

- Poetry memorization

- Present and past tense usage

- beginning composition

2. Writing Tales 1 (30 minutes depending on lesson)

Teaches Fable stage of progymnasmata plus:

- Copywork

- Composition: Rough Draft, Final Draft

- Mechanics: Complete sentences, types of sentences, rules of capitalization, proper punctuation, quotations (direct/indirect)

- Grammar: nouns, pronouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, conjunctions, interjections

- Vocabulary

- Dictionary Skills

- Spelling

 

3. Simply Spelling (10 minutes)

- Spelling rules through copywork and dictation of many different types of samples

- Dictionary skills

 

4. Writing Aids (don't have mine yet, it's coming)

Teaches:

- Everything, sigh. Here's the link to see topics covered

http://www.lampstandpress.com/egypt/pdf/watopics.pdf

 

This would be the same as using IEW without the style content if I'm not mistaken. We have Tapestry of Grace so I could use this just for our history/literature assignments OR starting using it as an LA source but I want more of a classical/CM approach to LA, hence the products listed above Writing Aids.

 

I'm not sure yet how I will incorporate Writing Aids, but my initial thoughts were to use it as a resource and in a couple of years (probably in 5th) start using it to assign reports and essays and use the progymnasmata (using whatever curricula we choose) as our main writing instruction seperately for the week.

 

 

OKAY. I listed all this above because it's what I have for 3rd grade. If I were to eliminate something, I'd feel more comfortable eliminating Writing Aids (to be put aside for now) and possibly Simply Spelling although it contains the spelling rules. I'm really open to what you think, would waiting until 4th for Writing Tales be more beneficial?

 

What are your thoughts? Please don't suggest other curricula, I'm confident I have all the skills we need to address with these products. ;)

 

Thank you for all your help lately, it has meant SO much to me.

[rafiki]

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[Another Lynn]

I wonder if you need to do PLL? If you get some dictation from simply spelling, copywork with WT... well it looks like *almost* everything in PLL might get covered somewhere else, especially if you narrate across the curriculum. Or you could keep PLL as a guide, but feel free to skip a lot of it?

 

I'm really interested in how others (more experienced than I am) will answer. I haven't even used the curriculum you've listed, so I really shouldn't comment at all, LOL. I will say that I definitely appreciate your question because I've been wrestling with similar issues, especially for next year. In our case, (for my 3rd grader) we use SWR for spelling and we've been working on written narrations. We were using Daily Grams to keep grammar fresh, but have set it aside for a bit. Where I'm similar to you is trying to decide for next year how much to focus on grammar vs. writing. I know these are not opposite goals, but I mean in choosing a curriculum(s). I want to be efficient with our time and maybe address one of these at a time... I'm considering GWG4, but then need to think about how much more writing to add in. Or we could do WT.

 

Well, enough about my problems, LOL - just wanted to say I understand a little bit where you are coming from!

[Trivium Academy]

YES! It's Sue, now I'll remember that since I've seen it twice. THank you Michele!

[rafiki]

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[Trivium Academy]

Lynn, please feel free to list your stuff too! The main point of this thread is how to avoid overkill, not really so much about the individual curricula. I was hoping it would help everyone to discuss it, ;)

[rafiki]

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[Chris in VA]

Hi Jessica,

It does sound like there's a lot of overlap in the resources you mention. Are you planning on using each one every day? Perhaps the scheduling is where you can cut back a little.

Sometimes I will find a curriculum claims to cover a certain area, but it really only touches on it, and doesn't cover it in the systematic way I want. I'm not familiar with the ones you've listed, but perhaps that's the case with some of them (I was thinking specifically about WT covering spelling).

I think some overlap is helpful, as seeing concepts in different settings is great reinforcement. Just today, we read about the Samurai in SOTW, and dd connected it to the Magic Treehouse books she's read on the same topic. That's kind of a dumb example, but what I mean is, if you have some overlap in language arts, it doesn't mean you aren't being efficient, necessarily; it could mean you are providing another example to aid understanding.

Anyway, it's fun to hear your journey! Hope you continue to ask, decide and share publicly! lol

[Trivium Academy]

Each of the 3: Primary Language Lessons, Writing Tales and Simply Spelling have elements to do each day of the week. Just to put it out there:

Writing Tales Lesson 1, each of these are on individual pages so it sets itself up nicely to do a little each day

- Read Fable, do copywork

- Vocabulary

- Grammar lesson

- Sentence Practice

- Writing the Rough Draft

 

that's five days of instruction which I think is the best way to use this program

 

Primary Language Lessons, short lessons 164 of them, lol. The first five lessons would be:

- Lesson 1: Picture Study

- Lesson 2: Copywork and Dictation

- Lesson 3: Is-Are

- Lesson 4: Poetry Memorization

- Lesson 5: Observation Lesson

 

We're using this now so we'd be further along in 3rd grade but I don't think we'll be done with it yet. We're doing it everyday right now since it is our only LA.

 

Simply Spelling: Copywork every day of the same item dictation on the last day, 5 different activities to do each day, example at their website b/c I don't have it in hand yet:

Level A (3rd grade) http://www.shoelacebooks.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=1490908#

 

I guess we could have an LA hour where we accomplish all these things and I could eliminate something when Writing Tales and PLL are addressing the same thing, having WT be the more significant exercises to do. The exercises in PLL are varied (which I love) so it would be easier to do that I would think.

[Lux Et Veritas Academy]

This is why I guess I really love Write Source- it is all inclusive except spelling- It covers everything and is so colorful and bright!

[Linda in NM]

I, personally, think it's a lot for a little person, but I'm more of a CM-type educator (now, I've finally found a label I'm comfortable with!) If I were you, I'd spend not more than 30 minutes/day on the mechanics of language (which is what most language-arts programs are), and spend the rest of the time reading. Reading aloud, reading silently, reading while children are upside on couch or playing tug-of-war with the dog...yup, we've done that. My son, at 13, has an enormous vocabulary, which he actually occasionally uses <grin>, and composes effective sentences and papers, thanks to IEW.

[Baseballmom]

I have used everything you are considering except WT. It seems like you could choose either Writing Aids or WT. Then, I would skip anything in PLL that is redundant. So if the skill was already covered in WA/WT or something else, and dd has a good grasp on the concept then skip it. Does that make sense?

HTH,

[Trivium Academy]

Do you mind sharing what you used in 3rd and 4th grade?

:D

[Sweetest]

too and I also struggle with how much is enough. Here is what I am (tentatively) planning for 3rd.

 

1. I am using WT1 for writing, grammar, and some copywork. I am trying not to stress about grammar at this point. My mind keeps telling me I need to do more grammar but my heart tells me this is enough (I am really trying to listen to my heart).

 

2. I have decided to stick with Natural Speller...just working through the Third Grade list of words and doing some supplementary vocabulary type work occasionally. I had thought about getting a third grade spelling program but again my heart tells me I don't need one. My daughter is an advanced reader (and she loves to read!) and I've decided this alone will help.

 

3. I plan to do dictation 1 or 2 times a week, from books that we are reading. I will correct her writing and she will copy the correct model.

 

4. Lots of reading aloud and assigned reading. I check out a TON of library books, and I have just recently started assigning reading as part of LA (in addition to the free reading my dd does in the afternoon). I pick out 7 or 8 books and let her choose which one she wants to read for the day. I only require that she read them...in other words I don't make her write about them or ask lots of questions (beyond "Was it good?").

 

When I write it all down like that it seems like a lot but in essence my schedule will look something like this:

 

WT1 - everyday (30 minutes?)

Spelling - everyday (10 minutes)

Dictation - 2 days (5-10 minutes)

Independent Reading - Everyday (30 minutes...her time!)

 

I do worry that I'm not doing enough but she is an excellent reader and I figure at this point that is really enough. If she was still struggling with reading I would focus on that much more (not sure of your situation) I think that is so much more important than all the rest.

 

I totally understand your struggle between too much/too little. I personally would rather err on the side of doing too little at this age. My biggest fear is killing her love of learning. Hopefully something I said was helpful :)

[Trivium Academy]

We took two months off Oct-Dec and really didn't back into the swing of these until mid-January where we started being very consistent.

 

Oral narrations are okay, writing complete sentences still needs to be developed but I can see that PLL is helping. We've dropped written narrations from history b/c we're enjoying talking and reading more these days. Her reading is on in-between 3rd and 4th grade and she's gainly fluency and ease each day (I'm so proud of her, she even has inflection!).

 

She's going to love Writing Tales and she already loves PLL. We'll figure it out, we do a ton of reading so it's not like we're substituting one for the other.

[Lisawa]

I like your plan Jessica...I have not used WT... but because Camille is going into 3rd grade... I would drop WA and use WT. Use the WA for when she is older.... Keeping it simple and having it spelled out in front of you with WT will help you both ( i think) in the long run. Shes young yet... and WA isnt going anywhere. *Ü* WT will keep things simplistic is what Im trying to say.... :D

 

Just my thought....

[neesek]

I am also working on 3rd grade plans for next year and dealing with the same issues. Here is what I am thinking about. First of all, I am going to stay with CLE Language. We used it for the first time this year and I love it. It has the spiral format so my ds gets plenty of review and practice, but it is not at all overwhelming. Also, spelling and penmanship are included in the same book, although we have skipped the penmanship this year to learn HWT cursive.

 

For writing, so far I am liking what I have seen of SWB's new book. I am hoping to see it at a convention, but that is what I am leaning toward right now anyway. Of course that could all change tomorrow.:)

 

I think I am one of the few here who actually uses a reading curriculum. I plan on staying either with BJU, which I have used for 2 years now, or switching to CLE.

 

Good luck!

[Testimony]

I think that PLL and Writing Tales will give you the same thing, except for poetry. PLL has poetry. Writing Tales does not have poetry.

 

See, I think that language arts has so many different curricula for each subject. You could easily spend a fortune just on Language Arts.

 

Here are all the subjects of language arts:

Spelling

Phonics/Reading

Writing and Grammar

Logic (I know, this may seem odd, but it is a language arts category)

 

What are the things that make up each subject?

Spelling consists of copying words and rules. You have many curricula out there that will help you. They are only spelling books. That's great, but I personally feel that copywork can cover that area fine.

 

Phonics/Reading: I know that you need a good curriculum for phonics, but once the child has mastered reading, any good book from the library will help. Also, once sounding out is mastered, reading consists of comprehension. So far, narration has helped me tremdously.

 

Writing and Grammar: I would love to find something that works the two together. I think Learning Language Arts through Literature comes the closest and Writing Tales.

 

Logic: Latin can cover that area pretty well.

 

I wrote the above information to get you an idea of how you could prevent overkill. This is what I came up with. I am sure others may have something different.

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[Trivium Academy]

Everyone's responses really made me think about why we were using each product, I switched to Primary Language Lessons because it would help me accomplish all the copywork, narration, etc. for the week without having to make it a task and PLL does it in such a beautiful, engaging way.

 

PLL would be only in 2nd grade but since we're getting a late start on it, I felt we should keep going in 3rd. What would make the most sense is to keep using it this year going lesson by lesson and then in 3rd, only do the lessons where the skills aren't in Writing Tales or Simply Spelling.

 

Since copywork and dictation are already covered in WT and SS, we'd skip those in PLL. We'll continue the oral & written narrations, observation lessons, poetry and picture study in PLL. The other composition and grammar items will be determined as we come to them.

 

This will eliminate the need to do these items in other subjects as well, such as history and science. History and science can be content subjects where we read, experiment and do projects and the only writing will be for our notebooks, science vocabulary and experiment forms and for history 1 written narration a week about what we learned.

 

We've been doing copywork, narrations oral & written in both history and science. We can stop that and truly use TOG's Lower Grammar section without adding anything to it.

 

I think Writing Tales will take as much time as dd(will be 8) needs or likes to. I don't see the need to rush her through a task for the day, she can continue it the next day if she needs to. I will drop this if dd isn't ready for it, I think she is based on its content and I think it will help her grow in many ways.

 

I can always pull back more in areas that seem to be too much, I'm the type who's better at that than beefing up. :) Thank you all so much for your input and making me really figure out how and why this should work.

[Jennefer@SSA]

I have all but decided to wait on WT1 until 4th grade. That being said, I have a boy and a very immature one at that. I think he would do fine with WT1 in 3rd but I am concerned about the maturity WT2 would need in 4th. I think (still reserve the right to change my mind - lol) we'll do something writing related in 3rd (Still not sure what but looking at IEW as recommended by Karen in Co or something along those lines). That will also give us one more year for WT to catch up to us. Your C seems much more mature than my T so the maturity wouldn't be an issue for you.

 

The other factor is, if I wait until until 4th to start WT1 then I should be able to stick with WT though level 5 if it ends up being as good of a fit as I think it will be. If I start in third we will only make it through Level 4 b/c Level 5 wouldn't be out when we needed it.

 

As for the spelling I am right with you about doing spelling in a more authentic way. I was excited to read about Simply Spelling on your blog!

 

Lastly, I think it can't be said enough but the time you are spending reading great literature to your children will not come back void (and having them read to you, too). It is the single best thing any of us can do. We can have the perfect curriculum and all the pieces in place but without that it is never as effective! Along with great discussion as well I should add. That was one thing that was hard for me in the classroom - I just didn't have the time to read to my students the way they needed in order to fall in love with the written word; there was just too much to do.

 

 

Now that I just re-read this it seems like lots of rambling to I am going to push "submit" before I ramble any more!

Blessings

[Sweetest]

I didn't mean to suggest that you weren't doing enough (or focusing enough on) reading...I'm just a strong believer in developing strong reading skills (mainly by reading!) before working too much on anything else in LA. It sounds like you are there already. I am seriously tempted to just do WT1 for my LA (still including reading, of course) but I'm afraid to let go of the spelling and dictation... :)

 

Oh and we pretty much took off November and December here too...I feel like we are just getting back into the swing of things!

[Sweetest]

 

Lastly, I think it can't be said enough but the time you are spending reading great literature to your children will not come back void (and having them read to you, too). It is the single best thing any of us can do. We can have the perfect curriculum and all the pieces in place but without that it is never as effective! Along with great discussion as well I should add. That was one thing that was hard for me in the classroom - I just didn't have the time to read to my students the way they needed in order to fall in love with the written word; there was just too much to do.

 

 

 

 

How true...this is one of the main reasons I took my daughter out of PS in first grade :) I had taught her to read before she started K and she has always been a strong reader but PS does not foster a love of reading (nor does it afford the time to develop). In the past year of HS she has fallen in love with reading...I couldn't be happier!

[siloam]

My first question would be does she like doing these? My guess is they are all new except PLL, right? PLL and WT overlap, but also each have their own specialties that are different, which I suspect is why you would like to do both. WT and WA approach writing from different perspectives so I guess that is why you like both of those. The spelling will overlap both PLL and WT with copywork and dictation.

 

Yes I do think there is too much overlap, so you need to simplify and not use parts of programs, or drop a program.

 

It seems to me the copywork/Dictation in the spelling program is a must to do the program, while in WT and PLL it is nice but other pieces don't rely on it, so I would drop from those two.

 

I would drop the spelling in WT as well.

 

I am not doing vocab out of CW, so I would drop that from WT as well. (I take vocab from TOG and our of our science books.)

 

You are covering basic punctuation twice, can one of those be eliminated? Especially because you will also cover it in all writing.

 

Then you have writing through both WT and WA, which will approach things differently. I do see value in both, and I think you can use both as long as you watch the volume...or get her typing so her poor hand doesn't fall off. There will probably a large part of the beginning of WA you can skip. Looking at my classic for 3rd grade they spend time in dictation and parts of speech, so the first 4 weeks you can skip ahead. That will allow you more time to introduce graphic organizers and clustering. Maybe even start projects early, but shift the topic to the week you are on? I think you can get a lot of the benefit of TOG writing yet keep the assignments very short, so it isn't too much for her. For example when in week 32 they have the child write short poems using similes and metaphors, just have her do one of each and maybe even have her do it orally.

 

Well that is my 2 cents on how I would approach it.

 

Blessings,

 

Heather

 

 

 

[King Alfred Academy]

This is a GREAT suggestion and one I am going to do myself!

[Trivium Academy]

Heather,

That's it! I'm moving next door. :eek: You can prevent me from making C's hand fall off and I can....I don't know, bring cookies? :rolleyes:

 

I don't have Writing Aids yet (it's on the way) so I figured I would leave it out for now. But I really like your ideas with the other items, I wrote a post that was supposed to show up at the bottom but it's closer to the top entitled "I think I found our solution" to sum it up, I'd pull from each what the other items don't have.;)

 

I'm packing up right now, how soon can you evacuate your neighbors? Which one has the nicer house, btw? Lol. :p

[PeterPan]

Get pregnant and be too tired to get it all done. ;)

[siloam]

Heather,

That's it! I'm moving next door. You can prevent me from making C's hand fall off and I can....I don't know, bring cookies?

 

I don't have Writing Aids yet (it's on the way) so I figured I would leave it out for now. But I really like your ideas with the other items, I wrote a post that was supposed to show up at the bottom but it's closer to the top entitled "I think I found our solution" to sum it up, I'd pull from each what the other items don't have.

 

I'm packing up right now, how soon can you evacuate your neighbors? Which one has the nicer house, btw? Lol.

 

Jessica,

 

That would be sooo much fun!! Think of all the planning we could do and all the curriculum we could exchange, LOL!

 

The more I get into WA the more I like it. It does take a little organizing, but it has all the pieces I want. Not just the assignment, but the how and why and WT has a lot of sheets you can print off and just have them read to give them focus. If you like to grade things the grading rubrics would be a great help too.

 

I am not jumping off the CW band wagon at all, but I do feel like I can relax with it a little bit because all our weight isn't on it alone.

 

Your revised plan sounds good to me. :cool:

 

Heather

 

p.s. There are two houses for sale on the block. ;)

 

[Trivium Academy]

Get pregnant and be too tired to get it all done. ;)

 

Are you pregnant????

 

I'm holding my breath...

[BizyPenguin]

Copywork. Dictation. Narration. Vocabulary. Grammar. Penmanship. Spelling. Reading. Writing. Whew! All of that encompasses language arts and it's enough to drive a homeschool mom mad. I decided not long ago to let go of the guilt of doing a lot of the Charlotte Mason style lang arts (copywork, dictation, narration). When my ds was younger we used copywork in place of a penmanship program, but narration was a bust at our house. Now that he's older, I could do dictation, but I don't. I've considered it, but there's only so much time in the day. When I found CLE language arts the angels were singing. CLE includes all but dictation (which as I mentioned, we're not doing) and writing. It was an answer to praryer and has totally simplified my day. We add in Bob Jones writing twice per week and we're done. Yep! CLE and Bob Jones and that's it. Okay, wait, that's not it...I do require a minimum of 30 minutes of reading per day, but I dropped the Bob Jones reading program that ds was using with workbook pages in favor of a more natural reading approach, so reading is much more enjoyable now. I reviewed CLE on my blog, so I won't go into why I like it so much here. Just thought I'd add my .02cents. P.S. Narration is covered during Bible lessons and history.

[mcconnellboys]

As I've told you before, I have not looked at Writing Tales, but if it teaches spelling, then I believe I would eliminate the other spelling program as well as Writing Aids (until she's older)....

 

Regena

[siloam]

Are you pregnant????

 

I'm holding my breath...

 

My thought exactly: Is this from personal experience? That would be news!

[Alana in Canada]

Testimony--thanks so much for breaking that down so coherently!

 

I'm going to copy and paste it somewhere so I can really get my head around it.

 

We have redundancies, too (I hope we do, our day is so long it's killing all of us!) and I may be able to loosen my ties to my "textbooks" with that bit of information!

[PeterPan]

Yes! :)

 

If all goes well, we're due in September, which puts them 9 1/2 years apart. Let's just say it was a shock.

 

As far as Jessica's original question... well honestly I've been too tired to keep up with things. We're doing lots of things, or rather we WERE doing lots of things before this hit. I honestly don't think it matters a whole lot what you do, as long as you do SOMETHING consistently. They just need to write something. WTM details your overall goal for 3rd, and it's basically to get them to where they can get their thoughts on paper reasonably well. That requires a certain modicum of spelling, so you want to do some spelling. It needs enough writing that standards become habitual. We did WT2 with daily editing 1st semester. This semester we're continuing WT2 and added in some SG once over easy. I try to have her do the VP lit guides, which I think has value as a writing exercise. I'm having her write the worksheets for history for the same reason. You just need to do SOMETHING. The only point is to increase proficiency, nothing mysterious. Next year is mysterious, so mysterious I haven't even tried to plan it yet. ;)

 

So yes, we're starting to slowly tell people. It was a real surprise, and I thought maybe a few people would rejoice with us. After 8+ years of ( - ) every month, I couldn't even believe it when I saw a positive. The morning sickness removed all doubt however, lol. The pink recliner and I have become fast friends, and it's amazing how much of that schooling can get done when you're curled up. It's amazing how much of it really doesn't matter any more if it DOESN'T get done. It's the ultimate streamlining. If you've been consistent, a little mess-up here or there, too much, too little, isn't going to rock the boat. If you start the year with too much, you'll quickly find out and back off. If you start with too little, you'll up the ante. Just because you want to do a lot of things, doesn't mean you have to do them ALL AT ONCE. That's why we're only doing grammar 2nd semester, because there wasn't time and it wasn't needed on top of WT. That's why I spent time on editing 1st semester, because it was a goal. And when that goal was met and she become proficient to my standards, I dropped it. Just go with the flow.

[Verena]

That is fantastic!!!!! Wohoo! Congratulations!!!!

[cajun.classical]

Congratulations! What a blessing!

[Trivium Academy]

 

Elizabeth and Dh,

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

That is amazing!

 

 

[Amy+2]

Congratulations, OhElizabeth! What a Blessing!!!!:)

[prairiegirl]

You do not know me at all as I lurked on the old board for 5 yrs. but I feel like I know you very well. I am so happy for you and your family. Congratulations!!!!

 

 

Julia

mom of 3 (8,7,5)

[PeterPan]

Thanks everybody!!! :)

[siloam]

WooHoo! Doing happy dance for you! Ok a happy squirm, as I didn't get out of my chair. :D

 

Congrats!!

 

Heather

[Johanna]

:DThat is so awesome. I will keep you in my prayers....CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

[jg_puppy]

Elizabeth

 

I am so excited for you.

 

Jan

[Strawberry Queen]

That is truly wonderful:D Congratulations!

[PeterPan]

Thank you ladies! You all are so sweet to notice and care!!! I was feeling kind of sorry for myself this evening, what with the nausea and all, and your comments brightened me up! :)

[Another Lynn]

Elizabeth, Congratulations! I finally made it back to read the rest of this thread and saw your good news! I'm preggo too (due July1) so I can really relate to what you said about doing what has to be done and letting the rest go. (You made me feel better about all that I've let go!) On top of that we participated in CC this year, so that has taken a bite out of my time and energy too.

 

What amazes me is that you can still impart such great wisdom here. I seem to lose a part of my brain when I'm preggo, but you have suffered no such ill effects! Hope the nausea departs soon!

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

Elizabeth,

Congratulations!! You don't know me but I've been reading your posts with much interest for a while now. I'm so excited for you. :D