Coalition for Responsible Home Education

[snowbeltmom]

How is the ACT info helpful if your parents won't let you take the ACT because they intend for you to be married with kids the time you're 18?

 

How is the transcript info helpful if you're dealing with a kid who, as one of the writers put it, is not only recovering from abuse but essentially a cultural immigrant in their own country with idea how society large works?

 

I didn't understand the point of having a regulation that required homeschooling records to be kept on file with a government agency.  The reason I was given for the necessity of this law is because parents are controlling these kids when they are adults by not giving them access to their transcripts and test scores. 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm having a hard time with this subect; I always do.

 

I have known neglectful homeschooling families. Very few, because I am purposely not "in community" with hs'ers of this type, nor unschoolers, nor HSLDA and state organization types who are more about politics and lifestyle than about education. In other words, these people are not my tribe. I don't know them, and the only thing we have in common is that we don't send our children to our local public schools.

So how is it that I should police them somehow, or give permission for my family to be harassed or our homeschool to be tied up in red tape on their behalf? What are they to me?
 

I am also doing nothing for the million abused and neglected children who go to public school. I would like to help them but I'm equally powerless and uninvolved in that arena.

I donate to women's and children's shelters. When I hear of abuse I try to intervene; when I hear of neglect (more often) I try to help parents connect to information and services. Otherwise, I don't solve the problems of child abuse and neglect. I'm not in a position to do so, and I have a different calling for my life.

None of these proposed laws or procedures will really protect children from abuse and neglect. I don't believe it, because laws already exist to protect the children who go to school every day and those laws fail all of the time.

These measures won't work. The abuse and neglect are an atrocity. I do not join homeschoolers who cover it up or who emphasize lifestyle over reason, health, education, and community. I abhor what has been done to some children in the name of Christian homeschooling. But these measures won't work.

[WishboneDawn]

Dp

[snowbeltmom]

Read the archives. Parental permission is often the last of the hurdles these people faced as kids.

I am not saying that I agree with how these kids were raised, but you can't legislate parental choice and still maintain our freedoms.  Who would get to decide what the "right way" would be to raise kids?  I certainly don't want an elected official deciding that for my family.

 

Legally, these kids do not need parental permission to take these tests.  How would subjecting all of us to more regulations solve the issue of "parental permission"? 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

About whether a homeschooled student has access to PSAT, SAT, ACT without a parent's help or permission?

My eldest son recently took the PSAT at our local public school. (Potential NMF! Yay!) With my permission and encouragement, he did make the arrangements, obtain the study guide, pay the $14(?), and get himself to the testing location at the right time.
 

I could have refused to let him take it. I could have refused to provide him with the curriculum and teaching to prepare him for it. I could have refused to give him the money or forbade him from going to school...I could have grabbed his envelope with the test results so that he never saw them. I could have done the college board account myself...

I don't know. If a parent is not the type to support a child through education and testing, I don't see how giving access to testing records will make up that difference. But I'm willing to hear more about that.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I am concerned that I will look back as an old woman and realize that I lived through the days when

homeschooling was illegal
homeschooling was legal
homeschooling was almost mainstream

homeschooling was controlled

homeschooling was illegal again

 

all in an era of failed public school reforms, bullying, excessive testing, Race to the Top, Common Core. A grim thought, indeed.

 

 

[WishboneDawn]

So what measures might? Could we engage the people at the coalition and Homeschoolers Anonymous and discuss possible solutions?

 

I guess I'm a little tired of a lot of discussion in defense of homeschooling these days. It often seems to boil down to,"I love my children more then anyone and Thomas Jefferson was homeschool so you have no right to even ask what the names of my children are." We don't really challenge ourselves on our assumptions about what our rights should be, we simply close ranks when someone outside or circle is critical and are content in our knowledge that we're right.

 

Maybe the proposals won't help. What would?

 

Maybe some parents would just go underground. So we shouldn't do anything at all then?

 

I don't know.

[snowbeltmom]

I am concerned that I will look back as an old woman and realize that I lived through the days when

 

homeschooling was illegal

homeschooling was legal

homeschooling was almost mainstream

homeschooling was controlled

homeschooling was illegal again

 

all in an era of failed public school reforms, bullying, excessive testing, Race to the Top, Common Core. A grim thought, indeed.

 

I don't think we have to worry about homeschooling being controlled or more regulated than it is now.  Look what happened this week when a state senator in Ohio tried to repeal our current homeschooling laws. 

 

Someone wrote a note of "congratulations" on the senator's facebook page for achieving the impossible as a politician: uniting atheists, Christians, Republicans and Democrats together fighting for a common cause. 

 

[Ellie]

So what measures might? Could we engage the people at the coalition and Homeschoolers Anonymous and discuss possible solutions?

 

No. It's personal responsibility, not government oversight, that is needed. Not "measures." And why would we give the people at the "coalition" and "Homeschoolers Anonymous" any sort of, IDK, authority? They are having their own personal party. Let them.

 

ETA: And when you're discussing government oversight, you're talking about 50 sovereign states, with hundreds of legislatures, from populations that are incredibly individual, all coming up with some sort of government authority. Don't even try to work in some sort of federal oversight. The U.S. government does not have that authority, thank goodness (the current failed health plan notwithstanding).

[HS Mom in NC]

If children can be abused for long periods of time by their parents when the child is enrolled in a public school and attending regularly, then how can the proposed changes to homeschooling solve that problem? I'm asking a practical question, not a philosophical one.

I think the type of person in these bad homeschooler situations isn't going to comply with any laws designed for oversight.  We're talking about nasty nut jobs with bizarre twists on religion, so my guess is, if these proposed changes happen, the whack jobs will simply live under the radar, never registering the kids as homeschoolers and never submitting to any kind of assessment. When the state they live in gets a whiff of it, then they'll move to another state and do it all over again.

 

We had a case like that here in AZ.  A little girl was abused to death by her family.  They said they were homeschooling, but they weren't actually educating the child at all.  They'd been doing the same thing in another state, social services started looking into it, and the family moved here to AZ.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't think we have to worry about homeschooling being controlled or more regulated than it is now.  Look what happened this week when a state senator in Ohio tried to repeal our current homeschooling laws. 

 

Someone wrote a note of "congratulations" on the senator's facebook page for achieving the impossible as a politician: uniting atheists, Christians, Republicans and Democrats together fighting for a common cause. 

 

I saw that note! LOL I was involved in that topic all week even though I don't live in Ohio, because some FB friends who are OH hs'ers were active and spreading the word. I was very impressed by how Ohio hs'ers handled the situation on their own, educating the senator on her page as well as in conversations on their pages in which she graciously participated. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If children can be abused for long periods of time by their parents when the child is enrolled in a public school and attending regularly, then how can the proposed changes to homeschooling solve that problem? I'm asking a practical question, not a philosophical one.

 

I think the type of person in these bad homeschooler situations isn't going to comply with any laws designed for oversight.  We're talking about nasty nut jobs with bizarre twists on religion, so my guess is, if these proposed changes happen, the whack jobs will simply live under the radar, never registering the kids as homeschoolers and never submitting to any kind of assessment. When the state they live in gets a whiff of it, then they'll move to another state and do it all over again.

 

We had a case like that here in AZ.  A little girl was abused to death by her family.  They said they were homeschooling, but they weren't actually educating the child at all.  They'd been doing the same thing in another state, social services started looking into it, and the family moved here to AZ.  

 I agree that the families will go underground.

 

And then there are the definition problems. What is homeschooling?

 

The aforementioned senator in Ohio meant to address abuse against "e-schoolers" by which she meant virtual ps students who are not homeschoolers, legally, at all. In Indiana and Texas we've had the "pushout" problem -- schools get tired of derelict or failing children bringing down their testing and attendance scores so they kick them out of school and inform the parents that they are now homeschooling! Pushout families are NOT homeschooling families.

 

People who game systems will keep gaming systems. Exerting more control on people who are already compliant with existing laws and who are good, that never does make the bad people be good.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Piggybacking on something Ellie said about letting the HA people have their personal party...I want them to keep talking. Whether it's there or at Patheos or Quivering Grace or Spiritual Sounding Board or that Gothard survivor site -- their voices, stories, and sharing are going to be so much more effective than anything we could ever do as home educators without personal experience with this lifestyle. One of those sites led an acquaintance to change because she could imagine her daughter on that site in a few years telling similar stories. The family changed everything, switched gears before it was too late.

No person or entity supporting homeschooling should marginalize the voices and experiences of these young people. I am glad they are talking.

[Crimson Wife]

Is it possible that they're referring to lack of access to transcript, test scores, proof of courses, etc. that a graduating hs student might need to apply to college?

Sounds like grounds for a law suit by the adult offspring against his/her parent and I'm sure that there are plenty of lawyers who would take on a case like this pro bono (probably just the mere threat of having to go to court would induce the controlling parent to furnish the records).

[Farrar]

I'm always torn about this issue.  However...

 

People who game systems will keep gaming systems. Exerting more control on people who are already compliant with existing laws and who are good, that never does make the bad people be good.

 

This argument feels so defeatist to me.  Why have *any* legislation for anything if people will always find ways to break the law or subvert it?  Except that I think we have to try to close loopholes sometimes and try to make laws do a better job of protecting people.

 

Whether these are the right suggestions...  I don't know.  But I like the idea of the homeschooling community (and points taken about the inherently fractured nature of the homeschooling community, as well as the difficulty of having people for whom homeschooling was a tool of abuse become leading spokespeople on this issue) creating a sort of template of best practices instead of simply leaving it to lawmakers who simply know nothing about homeschooling or praticalities.  I have long disliked the way that homeschoolers have a knee-jerk reaction of "stay out of my business" whenever anything horrible is exposed in homeschooling.  I would love to see a more proactive response in some way.

 

Off to look at the suggestions from this site.  I have to say, of the things mentioned and quoted so far, I already do all these things and so does pretty much everyone I know.  So it doesn't feel that intrusive.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I'm always torn about this issue.  However...

 

 

This argument feels so defeatist to me.  Why have *any* legislation for anything if people will always find ways to break the law or subvert it?  Except that I think we have to try to close loopholes sometimes and try to make laws do a better job of protecting people.

 

Whether these are the right suggestions...  I don't know.  But I like the idea of the homeschooling community (and points taken about the inherently fractured nature of the homeschooling community, as well as the difficulty of having people for whom homeschooling was a tool of abuse become leading spokespeople on this issue) creating a sort of template of best practices instead of simply leaving it to lawmakers who simply know nothing about homeschooling or praticalities.  I have long disliked the way that homeschoolers have a knee-jerk reaction of "stay out of my business" whenever anything horrible is exposed in homeschooling.  I would love to see a more proactive response in some way.

 

Off to look at the suggestions from this site.  I have to say, of the things mentioned and quoted so far, I already do all these things and so does pretty much everyone I know.  So it doesn't feel that intrusive.

Nodding. I'm not done with the topic, either, and even while participating in this thread I've got two windows open at HA.

[Farrar]

Okay, I poked around their website.  While I basically agree with most of their policy recommendations, the tone in most of the other sections is decidedly anti-homeschooling and very suspicious of homeschoolers.  I'm not terribly surprised though, considering the source.  I wonder if there's some way to create a group with similar goals that is pro-homeschooling while still allowing that homeschooling is not always perfect.

[ColleenInWis]

Sounds like grounds for a law suit by the adult offspring against his/her parent and I'm sure that there are plenty of lawyers who would take on a case like this pro bono (probably just the mere threat of having to go to court would induce the controlling parent to furnish the records).

 

I wonder what law would be the basis for such a lawsuit.  Our state doesn't require that we homeschoolers keep records, much less make them available to our students when they graduate.  I voluntarily made transcripts and diplomas for mine.

[Crimson Wife]

What can we do? Provide more support to adults who wish to make up for the deficits of their K-12 schooling (wherever that schooling took place). Strengthen adult education programs. Make it easier for those aged 18-25 to qualify for financial aid as independent students. There are all sorts of things we could do to help these HS graduates as adults make a better life for themselves.

[Paige]

The sad reality is that there are people who harm children intentionally and unintentionally. There are homeschooled children who are hurt by their parents and children who are abused by their teachers in every sort of school. This isn't unique to homeschooling. Children everywhere are vulnerable. There are laws against teachers abusing children and laws against students abusing other students in public and private schools, yet it still happens. How many children are pulled from schools because their lives were miserable and they were facing emotional and physical abuse daily under the supervision of the school? There are laws against parents and siblings abusing children at home as well. It's not an issue of whether or not we have the right rules or regulations. Who is going to enforce these new rules and eliminate fraud?

 

 

I think what may help is for there to be avenues to help the children coming out of bad situations. Homeschooling groups and the government can have programs to help catch adults up to what they should have learned that are stigma free. We can't make the Amish families teach their bright girls calculus. But, we can have programs to help bright women raised in Amish families (or children who went to inferior schools) and wish to leave the community to pursue their dreams of advanced mathematics. We need to change the mindset that education must happen from k-12 and if you miss out then it is too late.

 

We can become more involved with our community and give families support and options. We can offer activities that are safe and aren't judgmental to encourage struggling families to not isolate themselves. Find out what successful families are doing and encourage those activities. I'd rather promote positive behavior than try to stamp out negative behavior. By "we" I mean individuals, community groups, and government agencies. Punitive laws will only further isolate the families at risk and will build up more distrust between them and the government, and force them to hide and retreat from the larger community even further.

 

I may be idealistic, but I would like to focus on drawing them back into a larger community by offering genuine compassion, love, and support.

[WishboneDawn]

No. It's personal responsibility, not government oversight, that is needed. Not "measures." And why would we give the people at the "coalition" and "Homeschoolers Anonymous" any sort of, IDK, authority? They are having their own personal party. Let them.

 

I agree it's about personal responsibility. Many of us, by our words, actions, membership fees, have contributed to a climate where, in many places, it's very easy to abuse and isolate children under the guise of homeschooling. Should we not assume any responsibility for that? If you don't feel any responsibility, fine. But I am asking out of a sense of my own responsibility for some of the rhetoric I've spouted over the decade I'm homeschooled that was fully centered on me and what made my life easier without consideration for those that might be affected negatively. 

 

I also don't get those who are saying it won't stop abuse. No, of course it won't. It doesn't stop abuse in public schools either, That's a given. What it MIGHT do is reduce it somewhat and/or offer a means of getting away from the abuse for some abused kids. Wiping abuse out is unrealistic but reducing it somewhat is a very real possibility.

[Farrar]

The sad reality is that there are people who harm children intentionally and unintentionally. There are homeschooled children who are hurt by their parents and children who are abused by their teachers in every sort of school. This isn't unique to homeschooling. Children everywhere are vulnerable. 

 

But the argument of this group is that homeschooled children are more vulnerable because they have less access to outside advocates and institutions.  Obviously, abuse can happen anywhere with even the best safeguards and schools are far from perfect, but it does seem obvious to say that homeschooled children have fewer safeguards and therefore fewer chances to escape their abuse.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm always torn about this issue.  However...

 

 

This argument feels so defeatist to me.  Why have *any* legislation for anything if people will always find ways to break the law or subvert it?  Except that I think we have to try to close loopholes sometimes and try to make laws do a better job of protecting people.

 

Whether these are the right suggestions...  I don't know.  But I like the idea of the homeschooling community (and points taken about the inherently fractured nature of the homeschooling community, as well as the difficulty of having people for whom homeschooling was a tool of abuse become leading spokespeople on this issue) creating a sort of template of best practices instead of simply leaving it to lawmakers who simply know nothing about homeschooling or praticalities.  I have long disliked the way that homeschoolers have a knee-jerk reaction of "stay out of my business" whenever anything horrible is exposed in homeschooling.  I would love to see a more proactive response in some way.

 

Off to look at the suggestions from this site.  I have to say, of the things mentioned and quoted so far, I already do all these things and so does pretty much everyone I know.  So it doesn't feel that intrusive.

 

Yes!

 

And further to the second, even if it's just a discussion that never goes beyond the board, I'd really be interested in finding out what compromises most of us might be willing to make supposing some increased regulation WAS the answer.

 

Honestly, sometimes I feel like, as a group, we're turning into a bunch of self-righteous ostriches with our heads in the sand. ;)

[Crimson Wife]

I think what may help is for there to be avenues to help the children coming out of bad situations. Homeschooling groups and the government can have programs to help catch adults up to what they should have learned that are stigma free. We can't make the Amish families teach their bright girls calculus. But, we can have programs to help bright women raised in Amish families (or children who went to inferior schools) and wish to leave the community to pursue their dreams of advanced mathematics. We need to change the mindset that education must happen from k-12 and if you miss out then it is too late.

Absolutely.

[Farrar]

Or perhaps it is time to engage these people in dialogue, if they are open to that? I can honestly understand why they developed the views they did, and I think they make some valid points. It would probably be positive if some of these people could, let's say, poke around TWTM boards for a month or so to see how much homeschooling can differ from the experience they had.

 

I think they're probably aware (and they keep making allowances on the site like, "homeschooling can be very positive..." but then they spend twice as many words to talk about abuse and neglect) but the negative impact of their experiences would make it hard for them to see it through any other lens.  Which is understandable, really.

 

I wish so much at times like this that there was simply more data.  One thing I appreciated about their site was how well cited the data seemed to be, from reliable sources (so rare in the homeschool world!).  However, the lack of good studies about homeschoolers means we don't know what percentage of homeschoolers are being abused, or what percentage are successful later, or even, good grief, how many homeschoolers there are.  The estimate number of homeschoolers listed on their site is really different from the number our board of education has.  Data is just scarce.

[WishboneDawn]

Or perhaps it is time to engage these people in dialogue, if they are open to that? I can honestly understand why they developed the views they did, and I think they make some valid points. It would probably be positive if some of these people could, let's say, poke around TWTM boards for a month or so to see how much homeschooling can differ from the experience they had.

 

From what I've read they know that their experiences don't reflect all or even most homeschoolers. There was even a week of posts about the positives they thought homeschooling had brought them. They know. Frankly, I don't think we need to convince them of anything. We've got to take a look at ourselves. 

[Crimson Wife]

And further to the second, even if it's just a discussion that never goes beyond the board, I'd really be interested in finding out what compromises most of us might be willing to make supposing some increased regulation WAS the answer.

I'm fine with requiring families to register their own private schools and abide by the same kind of oversight as other private schools in their state. So if all private schools are required to administer standardized tests to their students in certain grades or submit portfolios or whatever, then private homeschools should as well. But if other private schools are not required to do these things, then neither should private homeschools.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I disagree that we should make motions toward educating and reassuring survivors of abuse in a homeschool setting. They are courageous survivors, finding their voices and seeking support, and I don't think they need re-educated about that. All that I have read have made the statement that they believe homeschooling can be safe and effective outside of these harmful paradigms. That should be sufficient, IMO.

[Paige]

But the argument of this group is that homeschooled children are more vulnerable because they have less access to outside advocates and institutions.  Obviously, abuse can happen anywhere with even the best safeguards and schools are far from perfect, but it does seem obvious to say that homeschooled children have fewer safeguards and therefore fewer chances to escape their abuse.

It's a mixed bag. Children who are homeschooled may have less access to outside advocates if their parents isolate them. On the other hand, children who are homeschooled also have less exposure to potential abusers. I believe greater and burdensome regulation would lead those the group are talking about (mostly religious cult-like groups) to respond by retreating further from the rest of us and that they would create their own private schools or umbrella schools staffed by people sympathetic to their abusive parenting practices. These groups would never submit to sending their kids to public school. Normal homeschoolers would submit to the new rules but I don't believe it would significantly reduce abuse or even the potential for abuse and may make some children's situations worse.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It's a mixed bag. Children who are homeschooled may have less access to outside advocates if their parents isolate them. On the other hand, children who are homeschooled also have less exposure to potential abusers. I believe greater and burdensome regulation would lead those the group are talking about (mostly religious cult-like groups) to respond by retreating further from the rest of us and that they would create their own private schools or umbrella schools staffed by people sympathetic to their abusive parenting practices. These groups would never submit to sending their kids to public school. Normal homeschoolers would submit to the new rules but I don't believe it would significantly reduce abuse or even the potential for abuse and may make some children's situations worse.

Is that true? Isn't it a fact that most abusers are relatives and/or very close to the family?

[ColleenInWis]

I agree it's about personal responsibility. Many of us, by our words, actions, membership fees, have contributed to a climate where, in many places, it's very easy to abuse and isolate children under the guise of homeschooling. Should we not assume any responsibility for that? If you don't feel any responsibility, fine. But I am asking out of a sense of my own responsibility for some of the rhetoric I've spouted over the decade I'm homeschooled that was fully centered on me and what made my life easier without consideration for those that might be affected negatively. 

 

I also don't get those who are saying it won't stop abuse. No, of course it won't. It doesn't stop abuse in public schools either, That's a given. What it MIGHT do is reduce it somewhat and/or offer a means of getting away from the abuse for some abused kids. Wiping abuse out is unrealistic but reducing it somewhat is a very real possibility.

 

Yes to both paragraphs, Dawn.  Especially this:  "to reduce it somewhat and/or offer a means of getting away from the abuse for some abused kids."  One of the writers at HA told of how her abusive father did decrease the abuse during a time (sorry, can't remember exact details) when she had more contact with people outside the home--the abuse didn't stop, but she was thankful for a change, a small change.  

 

I think the telling of the stories online is going to make a difference in the homeschool world.  If that's all that occurs, it's better than keeping the stories under the rug.  But I expect that these writers aren't going to be content with that.  

 

As I said, I'm not totally on board with policy changes that CRHE suggests.  But, looking at them again just now, I'm thinking they aren't all that radical--many are already in place in various states, aren't they?  

[Farrar]

Isn't that the nature of abuse, though? Are there any reliable statistics about abuse, considering that abuse is not always reported and we don't even know how much of it goes unreported? And, it's probably necessary to define "abuse", come to that. Is the type of oppressive situation these people come from abuse, or neglect? If it is abuse, to what extent does homeschooling really play a part?

 

I can agree with some formerly homeschooled victims of the Christian patriarchy movement that what happened to them is, in fact, partially about homeschooling. But it definitely isn't solely about homeschooling, no matter what they say. While some of us (current homeschoolers) like to stick our heads in the ground, I feel something is missing from the picture of these "homeschool survivors" as well.

 

I agree with a lot of what they are saying, and I have engaged some of these people on their blogs. After I pointed out, as a side note, that I am a person who decided to homeschool for academic reasons, I got a response along the lines of, "people tell me they're not religious homeschoolers all the time, but that doesn't make it any better". Is more regulation their ultimate goal, or would they really prefer to see a total ban on homeschooling? I would obviously not be able to support that, and I wish that some of these people could see what homeschooling can be like in an environment that is very different from the one they grew up in. 

 

Yes, abuse can be just as hard to track as homeschooling, if not harder.  Still, data is the bread and butter of education policy, which means that to make a difference or back up a claim, you need it.

 

I think the ultimate goal of this particular group is better regulation.  But as a group, there's clearly not agreement among the bloggers who write about these issues.  Some seem to want homeschooling banned, others seem to believe their own experiences were not the norm and that homeschooling in general is positive.  And everything in between.

 

I liked what Tibbie said though about how re-educating survivors of abuse is probably not the right thing to do here.  I think they have a right to see homeschooling their their own lens.  But then that makes me want all the more that homeschoolers themselves have a more clear, positive position about how to "homeschool responsibly" as they say.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The same kind of argument could be made for parents to have to submit food logs to the government of what their children eat because some lousy parents feed their kids absolute cr@p and as a result those children wind up obese and unhealthy as adults.

 

Freedom means that some kids wind up harmed by their parents' poor decision making. Yes, it's a downright shame when that happens but having a nanny state micromanaging our lives because of a few "bad apples" is not the solution.

I have to agree even though I am firmly a liberal Democrat who believes in reasonable regulations. I think reasonable homeschool laws like VA or DC are enough and I would hate to see more since the idea of someone dictating curricula and what not is scary to me. I think states like Texas do need some sort of reasonable homeschool regulation.

[kiwik]

How does creating a law to require homeschoolers to keep records on file with a government agency address this issue?

 

Also, a student does not need parental permission to register for any of these tests.

 

They need to know such a test exists. Be able to get to the location to take the test. Have mony to pay for it (don't know about this one but here most exams have fees) and have been taught enough to pass it.

 

I find the parental rights in the US a bit scary from a distance. I believe that society as a whole has a responsibility for children. As parents we have been loaned our children we do not own them.

 

And why on earth is there no right to education in some places?

[ColleenInWis]

I disagree that we should make motions toward educating and reassuring survivors of abuse in a homeschool setting. They are courageous survivors, finding their voices and seeking support, and I don't think they need re-educated about that. All that I have read have made the statement that they believe homeschooling can be safe and effective outside of these harmful paradigms. That should be sufficient, IMO.

 

Wasn't the point of educating survivors to provide the education they would need to go on to college, if they didn't get it at whatever school they attended as a minor, rather than providing abuse counseling?  I can't find the original suggestion...  Was it Crimson Wife who posted it?

[mommymilkies]

About whether a homeschooled student has access to PSAT, SAT, ACT without a parent's help or permission?

 

My eldest son recently took the PSAT at our local public school. (Potential NMF! Yay!) With my permission and encouragement, he did make the arrangements, obtain the study guide, pay the $14(?), and get himself to the testing location at the right time.

 

I could have refused to let him take it. I could have refused to provide him with the curriculum and teaching to prepare him for it. I could have refused to give him the money or forbade him from going to school...I could have grabbed his envelope with the test results so that he never saw them. I could have done the college board account myself...

 

I don't know. If a parent is not the type to support a child through education and testing, I don't see how giving access to testing records will make up that difference. But I'm willing to hear more about that.

I'm not "that old" but when I went to public school, I also had to have my parents' permission and money for the ACT test.  I came up with the money myself and my Mom signed me up.  There was no absence of abuse by parents or teachers/administrators in the schools I went to, either.  It's shameful that people would hide behind homeschooling as an excuse to abuse their children, but the fact is that it happens to SO MANY kids from all backgrounds.  Focusing on homeschooling won't fix this.  

[ColleenInWis]

Yes, here it is.   

 

What can we do? Provide more support to adults who wish to make up for the deficits of their K-12 schooling (wherever that schooling took place). Strengthen adult education programs. Make it easier for those aged 18-25 to qualify for financial aid as independent students. There are all sorts of things we could do to help these HS graduates as adults make a better life for themselves.

 

[ColleenInWis]

I'd also like to ask something. Is the freedom to homeschool periodically attacked in the US, without much success, after which things go back to normal? Or is there a real trend that leans more against homeschooling or more in favor of rigorous regulation? 

 

Homeschooling became legal a few months ago in my country of residence, and I know this would not have been possible if there wasn't already a fairly long history of legal homeschooling within the US. It is not impossible that a change in regulations in many states in the US will affect the laws where we live as well. 

 

I'm not sure, honestly.  I'm not a member of HSLDA, which sends out alerts about laws that threaten homeschool rights, so I don't keep up on everything happening in every state.  Just last week, there was a law proposed in Ohio which would have imposed strict regulations on homeschool parents.  Did you read about that?  There's a thread on the Chat Board about it, right?  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Or perhaps it is time to engage these people in dialogue, if they are open to that? I can honestly understand why they developed the views they did, and I think they make some valid points. It would probably be positive if some of these people could, let's say, poke around TWTM boards for a month or so to see how much homeschooling can differ from the experience they had.

 

Wasn't the point of educating survivors to provide the education they would need to go on to college, if they didn't get it at whatever school they attended as a minor, rather than providing abuse counseling?  I can't find the original suggestion...  Was it Crimson Wife who posted it?

ColleeninWis, I was answering what Dialectica said above about the usefulness of those survivors reading here to see how hs'ing can be different. I'm not sure how helpful that would appear to them to have us defend hs'ing while they are still processing and recovering from their abusive hs'ing paradigms...

 

I had not seen CrimsonWife's suggestion that we might help with ongoing education for young adults who missed it in their homeschool setting. That would be a noble undertaking. Our local public high school is not very good as a high school, unfortunately, but one area in which they excel is in ongoing education opportunities for adults and high school dropouts. These public resources, including GED classes, already exist in many locations.

[ColleenInWis]

Ok, Tibbie, thanks for clarifying.  I think they know that hs can be a good thing--some of the writers didn't suffer any abuse or neglect; others have dialogued with those who have had positive homeschool experiences.  

 

I think it's our turn to listen, but I am finding it very helpful to dialogue with all of you here.  As I read and process the stories at HA, I need an outlet to discuss, and I haven't found that anywhere else.  Thanks, everybody!

[ColleenInWis]

But then that makes me want all the more that homeschoolers themselves have a more clear, positive position about how to "homeschool responsibly" as they say.

 

When I think of the term "responsible homeschooling," I think of this:  If my husband and I say to society, "We are going to take on the education of our children ourselves.  We are capable of this.  We want what's best for our children and will do what it takes to give it to them," then the responsible thing for us to do is to do our best, to be willing to demonstrate (to some degree) that we are doing our best, to be willing to show that our methods are working and that the best interests of the child are being served.  

 

As for helping other parents be responsible--no, we aren't responsible for every other homeschool family.  But shouldn't we work toward a system that helps every homeschool family provide a reasonably responsible education?  Does the system, in some states, encourage irresponsibility, by not making parents give any sort of account?  

 

I never would have thought, 5 or 10 years ago, that I would be thinking things like this.  Anyway, I'm off now, I hope, to take responsibility for some other things in my life...  

[FairProspects]

Yes to both paragraphs, Dawn.  Especially this:  "to reduce it somewhat and/or offer a means of getting away from the abuse for some abused kids."  One of the writers at HA told of how her abusive father did decrease the abuse during a time (sorry, can't remember exact details) when she had more contact with people outside the home--the abuse didn't stop, but she was thankful for a change, a small change.  

 

I think the telling of the stories online is going to make a difference in the homeschool world.  If that's all that occurs, it's better than keeping the stories under the rug.  But I expect that these writers aren't going to be content with that.  

 

As I said, I'm not totally on board with policy changes that CRHE suggests.  But, looking at them again just now, I'm thinking they aren't all that radical--many are already in place in various states, aren't they?  

 

The "required" medical exam could be a problem. That is not required now of all children and there have been numerous bullying medical issues in my state regarding vaccinations and other decisions.

[Paige]

Is that true? Isn't it a fact that most abusers are relatives and/or very close to the family?

Yes, that's true. I was speaking strictly of statistical odds. The more people you are exposed to, the more people there are who may hurt you. It's not an excuse to hide under your bed, it doesn't mean the odds are high that you will be hurt, but only that the more you open yourself to people in general, the greater the risk is. My point was only that there are risks in both directions.

 

It's just math. I'm trying to come up with an example...how about this- If I have a tree in my yard with a bunch of bad apples, there's a chance I'll get a bad one if I blindly pick one. Now, imagine I have an orchard of apple trees across the street, and the orchard is on average less likely to have bad apples, but bad apples do grow there. If I am forced to pick an apple from my tree and several apples from the other trees, I have more chances to get bad apples simply because I am picking more apples. I have to pick apples from my tree no matter what- the same number every day, so that's kind of like a constant. The only variable is whether I add to my harvest with the other trees. I also may get more good apples off the other trees, but the more I pick, the greater the chance I'll stumble on a bad one.

[Hot Lava Mama]

Let's provide a better model of what a homeschool family should be.  

 

What are the standards for "better"?  Who sets them?  Why are your standards better than others?  What if they think your "standards" are dangerous, ill-advised, morally bankrupt?

 

I think the freedom we've been given here in the States is a little scary. 

 

I find this statement incredibly disturbing!  Especially given the current governmental environment in the U.S.  I certainly don't want some governmental bureaucrat to decide which "freedoms" I should be allowed by their grace!  What if I don't have the "correct" political and social view as they deem appropriate?  Will I be subject to audit by the IRS?  (O.K., that one has already been answered...let's move on.)  Will I only be allowed certain "freedoms" while others who hold different views are "allowed" other freedoms?  How about if another party were to control the government with completely opposite views as the current one?  Would it be O.K. for them to decide which "freedoms" you get and which ones you don't?  Which "freedoms" do you think should be taken away from us?

Freedom is not something "granted" by some government!  We aren't "given" them by the government.  They exist outside of the government. 

 

You have the right to do what you see fit, as do I.  I brought my child into the world and I am morally and legally responsible for him/her, therefore, I get to decide what is right for them until they are adults and can make their own decisions.

 

[Korrale]

They can't get far because they're assuming that education is an American right. Our country refuses to make it a right, except in some States. I made a whole thread on the chat forum when I learned that. The reason the United States will not make education a right (even though it's mandatory) is that then poor or minority, underfunded or underperforming school districts, could sue in court for their equal rights. If homeschool children want rights to an education they have to get in line behind failing schooldistricts, because if the lawmakers give in to this homeschooled group, then they have to make sure poor kids have a right to education too. Which they can't because they'll be sued.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/492873-is-education-a-right/

Does the US adopt the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Article 26 makes elementary education compulsory and access to education a right.

[La Texican]

I'm not sure. We couldn't figure it out in the other thread either. I think it was ratified and not signed, or something like that, which gave it a questionable position. None of the other countries did that. They either ratified and signed it, or flat rejected it. The Constitutional ammendment proposed by hlsda posted earlier in this thread includes the words that prevent international treaties from over riding said proposed ammendment. This is obviously far from settled.

[Ellie]

Or perhaps it is time to engage these people in dialogue, if they are open to that? I can honestly understand why they developed the views they did, and I think they make some valid points. It would probably be positive if some of these people could, let's say, poke around TWTM boards for a month or so to see how much homeschooling can differ from the experience they had.

 

Why?

 

If they want to poke around homeschool sites, they can find them, the same way the rest of us did.

[K&Rs Mom]

 Does the system, in some states, encourage irresponsibility, by not making parents give any sort of account?  

 

 

No.  The parents who are going to do a bad job (whatever definition of bad you use there) of homeschooling, are just as able to do it in high-regulation states as in low-regulation states.  There are lots of ways of working the system, and the people who want to do that will find the loopholes (or just outright lie).  Parents don't owe an "account" of their parenting or education to anyone - especially the government.

[Crimson Wife]

Children are legally minors, and therefore they have a different set of rights under the law than adults do. This is a recognition that their brains are immature and therefore they don't always know what is in their own best interests. For example, I have the legal right to refuse medical treatment for myself because I am presumed able to make an informed decision about it. My kids are not legally allowed to make that decision but rather have to go along with whatever their father and I (or a judge in certain circumstances) decide for them.

 

Kids are not mini-adults and should not be treated as such.

[shinyhappypeople]

I take the stories at HA very seriously.  I was raised in a very unhealthy religious environment with an abusive pastor.  I believe their stories and I believe their pain.

 

I just don't believe that stricter regulations will make any difference whatsoever.  None.  Their parents would have found a way to work around it, or gone off grid, or signed up with an umbrella or distance learning school that held similar beliefs.

 

I think it's tempting to default to "there ought to be a law!" when we're hurting, because that helps us take back a little bit of control, and helps us feel a little more powerful, especially when we've been shamed into powerlessness for years.  But, at the end of the day, you can't legislate the human heart. 

 

The one think that might make a small difference is talking about related issues - especially educational neglect - at homeschool conferences, in blogs, and on homeschool forums like this one.  Say it out loud, name it, and describe it (hard to do!).  Also helpful is that we stop demonizing public schools as a whole.  Listen, I am NOT a fan of our local public school, but it's not the seventh circle of hell, either.  It's a poor fit for our family, but kids do manage to do okay and go on to lead productive lives after attending.  I know I did. :)