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I disagree that we should make motions toward educating and reassuring survivors of abuse in a homeschool setting. They are courageous survivors, finding their voices and seeking support, and I don't think they need re-educated about that. All that I have read have made the statement that they believe homeschooling can be safe and effective outside of these harmful paradigms. That should be sufficient, IMO.

If you are referring to offering educational opportunities for adults deprived of an education, then I disagree. Where I live there are actually public schools that offer high school education to adults who dropped out of school and what not. I think it is in the best interest of society to try and help those deprived of an education no matter the circumstances.

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I take the stories at HA very seriously.  I was raised in a very unhealthy religious environment with an abusive pastor.  I believe their stories and I believe their pain.

 

I just don't believe that stricter regulations will make any difference whatsoever.  None.  Their parents would have found a way to work around it, or gone off grid, or signed up with an umbrella or distance learning school that held similar beliefs.

 

I think it's tempting to default to "there ought to be a law!" when we're hurting, because that helps us take back a little bit of control, and helps us feel a little more powerful, especially when we've been shamed into powerlessness for years.  But, at the end of the day, you can't legislate the human heart. 

 

The one think that might make a small difference is talking about related issues - especially educational neglect - at homeschool conferences, in blogs, and on homeschool forums like this one.  Say it out loud, name it, and describe it (hard to do!).  Also helpful is that we stop demonizing public schools as a whole.  Listen, I am NOT a fan of our local public school, but it's not the seventh circle of hell, either.  It's a poor fit for our family, but kids do manage to do okay and go on to lead productive lives after attending.  I know I did. :)

 

I need say nothing else. This sums up my feelings perfectly. 

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If you are referring to offering educational opportunities for adults deprived of an education, then I disagree. Where I live there are actually public schools that offer high school education to adults who dropped out of school and what not. I think it is in the best interest of society to try and help those deprived of an education no matter the circumstances.

No. Repeating my clarification from upthread -- sorry about the confusion:

 

 

ColleeninWis, I was answering what Dialectica said above about the usefulness of those survivors reading here to see how hs'ing can be different. I'm not sure how helpful that would appear to them to have us defend hs'ing while they are still processing and recovering from their abusive hs'ing paradigms...

 

I had not seen CrimsonWife's suggestion that we might help with ongoing education for young adults who missed it in their homeschool setting. That would be a noble undertaking. Our local public high school is not very good as a high school, unfortunately, but one area in which they excel is in ongoing education opportunities for adults and high school dropouts. These public resources, including GED classes, already exist in many locations.

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I had to think about this a minute, too, as I was reading the thread just now.

 

Is it possible that they're referring to lack of access to transcript, test scores, proof of courses, etc. that a graduating hs student might need to apply to college?

 

Then what about kids who have been public schooled whose parents won't fill out the FAFSA parental info so they can't apply to go to college?  Legislation for them too?

 

Slippery slope, all of it.

 

BTW, not picking at you, Tibbie.  :)

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Then what about kids who have been public schooled whose parents won't fill out the FAFSA parental info so they can't apply to go to college?  Legislation for them too?

 

Slippery slope, all of it.

 

BTW, not picking at you, Tibbie.   :)

We've got those former neglected ps kids on this forums and have talked about this very thing. :( My own parents never filled out a FAFSA. I got myself into vocational school without their help.

 

But...are parents who make these choices actually providing their children with a college-prep education in the first place? Of all the anecdotal evidence I've perused lately, I have not seen one case where the child said that they'd studied Physics and Latin but their parents hoarded the records so they couldn't go to college. Almost all of the people speak of serious educational neglect -- no way were they going straight to college, transcript or no. 

 

The idea of legislating the right to one's own academic records, to me that is a straw in the wind. It's "something" but doesn't solve the massive problem of what is, or isn't, on those records.

 

 

 

 

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I think they think if those records were available the parents would be shamed since most abuse (although this is not legally abuse or neglect, only morally) is done in secret.

 

I've heard of a kid locally whose mother would rather spend time at the bar than raise her kids, who stay with the grandmother. Then uncle said he chased off some boys who were hooking up with the fourteen year old, who was already obviously active with the boys. It not illegal.

Awful parenting is just not illegal. There is a line. It is low.

 

So you need to look at the things these cult survivors are asking for, like Ellie did. Asking for a decent education is not within their rights.

(-_-,) They're not going to get that without the government opening themselves to having to make all the school districts equal (fourteenth ammendment), and the lawsuits for social inequity.

 

The vaccination, what do they want? That's really on the CDC to track, not the school district. I would guess every kid already sees a doctor when they are sick, unless they can't afford/ won't take medicaid, or are conscientious objectors. Crimson Wife said this campaign is religious. That's where they would have to go, if they want to win this one. They would have to go against whatever legislation lets JW skip lifesaving blood transfusions. Other than that, if a child dies or is found suffering from medical neglect it is already illegal. The parents will already be sent to jail if it reaches the level of abuse.

 

Bookkeeping? I don't think any school keeps records very long, except a diploma. What records are they fighting for that are more valuable than a GED? a mommy transcript?

 

Yes!

 

And further to the second, even if it's just a discussion that never goes beyond the board, I'd really be interested in finding out what compromises most of us might be willing to make supposing some increased regulation WAS the answer.

 

Honestly, sometimes I feel like, as a group, we're turning into a bunch of self-righteous ostriches with our heads in the sand. ;)

I would consider abuse what a social worker considers abuse, which is a pretty low standard, but it is the national standard for child welfare. I would not be interested in making personal compromises for somebody elses responsibility, especially if my activity could not be clearly linked to their betterment. If it was someone here in front of me, and I could clearly see how my choices affected them, then I would weigh the odds. As is, I know that such suffering exists, but I see nothing to convince me that my sacrifice would relieve their suffering.

 

What I would recommend (not that they asked) is to start talking a lot, to a lot of social workers, so they can learn. They can learn about abuse, they can learn about the law, they can learn about legal interventions. A lot of what they're complaining is not illegal, only undesirable.

Also, talking to a lot of social workers will let them borrow the knowledge and experience of a tribe that is dedicated to fighting child abuse and neglect, they have to have insights into the law that could serve this group well.

 

Even when the social workers are telling these activists that what they want can not be done, as long as the social workers are willing to spend time chatting with the activists then the activists will learn more about how they are being thwarted legally. It will help fine-tune their objectives to something productive and beneficial.

 

TL;DR

I think this group needs to look beyond their HLDSA provided activist training, get off the lobbyist train, go and spend lots of time with as many social workers who will hang out with them. Discuss their concerns. Even when the social workers are telling them why "it won't work", at least they're learning why it isn't working. Then they can learn which laws to lobby for, how to create public policy, which will make a more lasting and stable policy to protect children than the lobbying efforts they learned from the HSLDA, because it takes advantage of their abilities and passion while taking advantage of insights that get at the core of child advocacy and the law. I think this could produce results that are longer lasting and more effective in helping shape national policy than just crying out "there should be a law!"

 

(is this anything like the ideas you asked for, even though I'm sure it's not what you want to hear?)

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There's another practical angle in all this.  You can't just discuss the philosophical issues at hand, you have to address the practical ones too. In creating a policy that is  "Policy as psychotherapy" you may make people feel better that their concerns have been addressed, but it's nonsense if it doesn't actually solve the problem. So, what would have to happen to solve the problem and is it at all even possible?

In the state of AZ, according to an article I read earlier in the year, CPS is taking in 30 children a day, on average right now.  Our system is so overloaded with abuse cases, it's been a media frenzy with the government employees who haven't been able stop kids from falling through the cracks already. The turn over rate for social workers here is supposedly very high. My SIL got her degree at ASU for $50,000 a couple of years ago.  The pay I last heard is about $30,000.  Anyone interested in signing up?

Imagine the cost to expand an additional 20,000 children (roughly the number of homeschooled kids in AZ) to that pile in hopes of what I'm assuming is a very small percentage of them.  I'm assuming we're not the only state already drowning in abuse cases without the resources to adequately deal with it.  Until that's addressed, there's no way we could expand government oversight even if the voters agree to it. 

As others have pointed out, you'll have to specifically define educational neglect and apply it to every school aged child in the state.  Imagine what the ps teachers dealing with the lowest performing students will have to say about that.  Imagine how private schools will respond.  If you don't include institutional schools, then what stops these cults from opening their own private schools and doing what they've been doing all along?  Whose job will it be to investigate them?  Our CPS is stretched too thin now.  Where will the money come from?  We're already cutting things a lot of voters aren't happy about.

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Does the US adopt the Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 26 makes elementary education compulsory and access to education a right.

 

 

I'm not sure. We couldn't figure it out in the other thread either. I think it was ratified and not signed, or something like that, which gave it a questionable position. None of the other countries did that. They either ratified and signed it, or flat rejected it. The Constitutional ammendment proposed by hlsda posted earlier in this thread includes the words that prevent international treaties from over riding said proposed ammendment. This is obviously far from settled.

 

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (adopted by the UN in 1948) did not require ratification by the U. S. legislature.  The U. S. rep to the UN approved it.  It isn't as binding as a treaty because the Senate didn't have to ratify it. 

 

This is not the same as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which HSLDA opposes and the U. S. Ambassador to the UN signed (1995) but never ratified by voting on it in the Senate.  http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/20091120.asp  If the Senate ratified it, it would be a binding treaty.  

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I don't think disagreeing with the groups legislative agenda, is the same as dismissing their concerns.

 

I actually think their concerns are very important, so important that I think focussing on government regulation of homeschooling to address them might be a mistake.

 

The cult my family grew up in was able to control and isolate even with my parents generation who were in public school. My generation, which my parents saved me from, was homeschooled primarily. Many of them are functionally illiterate. But many of them were in high regulation countries and states. Then the cult changed its tactic and created their own "private schools", since the poorly educated generation was not bringing much money into the supreme leaders coffers. The private schools actually seem to be a better "control" tactic than homeschooling, since homeschooling tended to vary by family. Now they are able to indoctrinate the children all day.

 

Now obviously this is a different group that the patriarchal one that is the primary concern here. But I know a lot of "cult" survivors. Every relative I have 5 or more years older than me is either an escapee or a member. I see this group, of recent escapees who has been trained in government activism against government regulation, thinking the solution must be government activism for government regulation, specifically of homeschooling. It takes many years to break out of the deep programming these control groups employ. They are still embroiled in it. They controlled us, maybe if we control them things will be better. But I think this will not address their legitimate concerns. And it won't change anything. Even if you outlaw homeschooling entirely, these control and isolate groups will still control and isolate.

 

The problem is not homeschooling, it is a tool - a knife can be used to perform life saving surgery, slice onions, or murder someone. Now knives of course do not have an extensive community around them like homeschooling does. So it is reasonable and makes sense for those who have been hurt in part by the tool of homeschooling to have a response from the homeschooling community ( although the homeschooling community is so varied, I think there are many who have no obligation to be involved). However it is not reasonable to present there concerns as an issue for the majority of the homeschooling community. But I completely understand why they would since they probably have a very limited understanding of the homeschooling community at large.

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This is not the same as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which HSLDA opposes and the U. S. Ambassador to the UN signed (1995) but never ratified by voting on it in the Senate. http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/20091120.asp If the Senate ratified it, it would be a binding treaty.

Saudi Arabia has ratified this treaty. I am skeptical about its effectiveness.

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http://www.parentalrights.org/  HSLDA is behind this parental rights movement.  I don't know a lot about it except that it's a reaction to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which they oppose. http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/20091120.asp

Yes, here are some of their key objections

Children would acquire a legally enforceable right to leisure.

it would be illegal for a nation to spend more on national defense than it does on childrenĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s welfare

as well as

Parents would no longer be able to administer reasonable spankings to their children.

A murderer aged 17 years and 11 months and 29 days at the time of his crime could no longer be sentenced to life in prison.

What a great objection!

Children would have the right to reproductive health information and services

(Putting aside the fact that if one is truly a "child," one is physically incapable of reproducing, so the use of the word "child" for those who are of childbearing age is deliberate.)

 

And they also object to the Convention on the Rights of the Disabled for reasons such as

All corporal punishment will be outlawed.

 

Because apparently, beating your handicapped child is a cause that needs a spokesperson.

 

the disabled have a right to make reproductive health and family planning decisions and a right to be educated about those decisions and given the means to carry out those decisions.

Again, a group of people of reproductive age shouldn't know they are biologically capable of bearing children? And given that 1 in 200 women say they've experienced a virgin pregnancy, reproductive decisions might be more complicated than we realize.

 

 

I had a memory of these organizations also believing in "traditional" family structure, i.e. an at-home mother, and I found it by searching my own posts, hooray!

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/439142-can-someone-please-explain-this-to-me-letter-from-hslda/page-3?do=findComment&comment=4475000

"the U.N. committeeĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s directives have included trying to eliminate the traditional roles of men and women, including seeing women as mothers and teaching an understanding of a traditional family to children."

http://www.hslda.org/Legislation/National/2011/H.R.20/default.asp

 

I kind of think we need a middle ground here. Extreme amounts of proof for homeschooling parents doesn't really avoid the non-homeschooling abuse questions, and it doesn't protect all kids. We do need a more child-friendly society, in my opinion, and that doesn't translate to more spankings and lifetime imprisonment of juvenile offenders.

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Sarcasm?

Why, certainly not. I think it's an excellent use of these people's time to ensure that those who are 17 years, 11 months, and 29 days (or 30, in the case of those lucky enough to be born in 31-day months!) at the time they commit crimes, are imprisoned for life. It seems a very relevant part of the homeschool movement.

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Can we talk about the concept of a "homeschooling community"? Is there really any such thing? If so, would it be equally appropriate to talk about the "private school community"? Like private schools, homeschools come in numerous very different forms with very different goals and day to day experiences.

 

 

I'd imagine that in the US, you get clusters of families that homeschool for the same reasons or have the same goals socializing, if homeschooling happens in large enough numbers in a particular area. I also imagine that there are areas where homeschooling is really uncommon or where one might be the only family that homeschools for a different reason. Like, the one secular family within a cluster of religious homeschoolers. In this case, there is no community.

 

 

Again, I believe that anyone who wishes to make policy suggestions about homeschooling regulations and anyone who is engaged in creating legislation should have a good understanding of the variety of "the homeschooling community". It's one thing to know that not every family's reality reflects the abusive situation in which one grew up, for instance, and a very different thing to have personal experience with many types of homeschoolers.

Homeschooling has many aspects of community, but it is definitely not a cohesive whole. There can be local homeschooling communities, online communities (such as this), state "communities" (such as forms when dealing with legislative issues in the US). Not everyone who home schools has a connection with all aspects of homeschooling community. However many do have community connections, and it is those who have some responsibility to at least consider what these "homeschool abuse" groups are saying.

 

Now there seem to be 2 angles to the homeschool abuse thing.

 

1. Abusers who use homeschooling to get away with there abuse. This does not have anymore to do with homeschooling than it does with the duct tape industry (duct tape is a common restraint in many of these cases as well). Some of these homeschooling abuse sights actually site the Elizabeth smart, and Jaycee Dugard cases as examples of homeschool abuse. (Famous US kidnapping cases, where the abductor forced their captives to say they were homeschooled on the rare occasions they took them out in public). There is a similar situation with the current Ohio controversy. It is ridiculous to place any responsibility for these horrors on homeschooling, unless things like duct tape, hair dye , door locks and window shades are going to take there share of the blame.

 

2. The second group seems to be homeschool families who are or become involved in philosophies/religious groups that use control and isolation. The frequency of what is called "spiritual abuse" is quite high, and other types of abuse are more easily hidden. The specific one that seems to be prevalent is the "Patriarchy" movement. I do believe this does deserve some response and dialog from more mainstream homeschoolers, especially Christian homeschoolers.

 

As far as I can tell, the Patriarchy movement has roots in the southern United States, and actually has some relationship with confederate ideology. But many Christian homeschoolers have been influenced by it in subtle ways and have unwittingly defended and supported it. This is the homeschool community who I think has some responsibility to become educated and if possible address the issue. I think this would be more effective than legislation.

 

I actually appreciate this thread. I don't personally know any families in the patriarchy movement, but I do know families influenced by it, and have read blogs of some who are firmly in the patriarchal movement. And because of my personal experience with Cult survivors, I do feel like I as an individual need to research the situation more and see if there is something I should be doing.

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Or perhaps it is time to engage these people in dialogue, if they are open to that? I can honestly understand why they developed the views they did, and I think they make some valid points. It would probably be positive if some of these people could, let's say, poke around TWTM boards for a month or so to see how much homeschooling can differ from the experience they had.

I think that is happening. It's likely our passionate threads have made a positive impact on some. The traffic here is tremendous.

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I have a point I don't think has been discussed in much depth. While there is a potential for abuse anywhere there is a child, this Coalition is concerned with the sort of abuse that occurs in conservative religious homeschool settings. Without getting into a debate, there is a clear movement in some conservative religious groups toward isolation from others outside the group as well as cultural isolation.

 

I'm in Pennsylvania which is a state that already regulates home education. In fact, I'd prefer the Coalition's recommendations in some instances because I'd be able to choose between an evaluation by a certified teacher, a portfolio, and standardized testing instead of having to submit to all of those in the same year. In my state there is no 'religious exemption homeschooling law', which I understand exists in some states under which homeschooling families are not subject to any reporting requirements. I think that, in simple fairness, there should not be any loopholes for religious families in any state escape the reporting and other requirements that secular families are subject to. It shouldn't matter why a family chooses to homeschool. All homeschooling families should have to meet the same requirements and families who homeschool for religious reasons shouldn't get a free pass. 

 

In my own state, academic private schools must be evaluated and licensed while private schools run by religious organizations are exempt and only required to be registered. I am personally aware of a half dozen private religious schools in my rural area, not counting multiple Amish schools. The only private religious school in my area that is concerned with academic excellence is the Catholic school. The rest, Mennonite and fundamentalist Baptist, exist to indoctrinate children into those belief systems (my opinion, I must add) and are not required to submit test scores or any evidence of academic accountability to the state like the academic private schools must do. I suggest that any private schools in a state ought to conform to one set of requirements and that exemptions for religious schools be eliminated. 

 

As a secular homeschooler who home educates for academic reasons I sometimes feel very threatened by the choices of religious homeschoolers. If homeschooling is more restricted or outlawed, I have no recourse (there are no academic private schools in my area)  while the religious families can simply enroll their kids in the fundamentalist school of their choice and likely continue on even using the same curriculum. I would like to see any distinction and special privilege attached to educating children in a religious philosophy abolished under the law. I would suggest to the Coalition that they ought to add this to their agenda. 

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I guess I'm a little tired of a lot of discussion in defense of homeschooling these days. It often seems to boil down to,"I love my children more then anyone and Thomas Jefferson was homeschool so you have no right to even ask what the names of my children are." We don't really challenge ourselves on our assumptions about what our rights should be, we simply close ranks when someone outside or circle is critical and are content in our knowledge that we're right.

 

The problem, to me, is that one of the easiest ways to lose our rights is to give them up by inches. This small change here, this extra regulation there, don't seem harmful until they keep accumulating and eventually, we no longer have the freedom we started with. Reacting to isolated incidents with more regulation opens the door for even more regulation in response to the next isolated incident. People in favor of more regulation need to show empirical evidence of the problem they are trying to solve, and a website full of anecdotes, or a sad news story, isn't that.

 

As parents we have been loaned our children we do not own them.

 

As Khalil Gibran as that sentiment is, I don't agree with it at all. No one and nothing lent me my children. I am their parent, and it is my natural, moral, and legal obligation to raise them. I won't be giving them back to anyone when they are grown. They belong to our family, and as their parents, it is our job to make decisions for how they are raised, and we don't have to receive anyone's ok to do that.

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I hear the abuse survivors and concerned experts. I understand the desire for legislation, and I even support some reforms in that area although I'm not willing to go farther than to bring more states up to the same accountability standards that have been accepted by homeschoolers already. I live in a non-reporting, non-testing state. I would be willing to live under the laws of more stringent states, since it has been proven in those states that hs'ers have not lost their freedoms under that level of regulation.

 

Other than that concession, I don't even think legislation is the answer. I'm working on a different angle, one that I think most (if not all) classical home educators could get behind. I'm working with some friends from here and elsewhere, planning to utilize a platform that we are building (a collaborative blog) partially for this purpose:

We should be promoting classical home education more. We should be way, way, way more visible as the face of homeschooling, especially in this era when homeschooling is growing more in response to problems at school and less as an evangelical reaction to culture...new hs'ers are not looking for courtship, quiverfull, etc. They just need to know how to teach math now that they've left the school system. Classical education is one answer to their initial need upon leaving ps. It's traditional, familiar at the "gut" level, instantly identifiable as "academic" instead of as "lifestyle."

We should be promoting a rigorous classical education as the birthright of the child of the West. Homeschooling is not about my rights or my lifestyle; it's about my child's birthright to a working knowledge of man's contribution to the world in which he now lives. I have a responsibility to connect him to his heritage, his history. I owe him this.

In my opinion, HSLDA and evangelical state homeschool associations have nearly achieved their goal of becoming the voice and face of homeschooling in the United States. HSLDA is working on the same mission globally.  But they're not all that homeschooling is, and they're not all that homeschooling ever was. There was another history: John Holt, Raymond Moore, those hippies who co-op'ed with fundamentalist Christians in the 80s. Also, classical home education has a toe in another arena, having more in common with one-room schoolhouses of old and Latin schools and university model schools of today. We have other friends in education, and a history other than evangelical Protestant.

We should be introducing ourselves to the nation more deliberately, so that when people think of homeschooling they can't help but think of us.

Let's leave legislation to those who can't help themselves and can't think of any other way to address this problem, and let's start being more vocal and visible about what we are doing in our homes. We need to organize and stand up.


 

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I would like to see any distinction and special privilege attached to educating children in a religious philosophy abolished under the law.

That has First Amendment implications. The original intent behind the separation of church and state that the Founding Fathers did was to protect religious liberty and keep the government from meddling in church affairs.

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That has First Amendment implications. The original intent behind the separation of church and state that the Founding Fathers did was to protect religious liberty and keep the government from meddling in church affairs.

 

The visible result has been to grant religious homeschoolers special privileges. I doubt that was the intent. As a secular homeschooler I am the one bearing the burden of complying with regulations they are exempt from. It is not an infringement of religious liberty for religious homeschoolers to have to meet the same homeschool reporting requirements as everyone else. 

 

To take it further, it is an unfair special privilege for nonpublic schools run by religious organizations to be exempt from the licensing and reporting requirements of nonpublic schools run by secular organizations. This is about the elimination of special privilege for religion, not infringement of religious liberty. I'm quite certain that the constitution does not and never has been intended to create a hostile playing field for nonreligious groups or individuals, but that is exactly what exists today.

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I hear the abuse survivors and concerned experts. I understand the desire for legislation, and I even support some reforms in that area although I'm not willing to go farther than to bring more states up to the same accountability standards that have been accepted by homeschoolers already. I live in a non-reporting, non-testing state. I would be willing to live under the laws of more stringent states, since it has been proven in those states that hs'ers have not lost their freedoms under that level of regulation.

 

Other than that concession, I don't even think legislation is the answer. I'm working on a different angle, one that I think most (if not all) classical home educators could get behind. I'm working with some friends from here and elsewhere, planning to utilize a platform that we are building (a collaborative blog) partially for this purpose:

 

We should be promoting classical home education more. We should be way, way, way more visible as the face of homeschooling, especially in this era when homeschooling is growing more in response to problems at school and less as an evangelical reaction to culture...new hs'ers are not looking for courtship, quiverfull, etc. They just need to know how to teach math now that they've left the school system. Classical education is one answer to their initial need upon leaving ps. It's traditional, familiar at the "gut" level, instantly identifiable as "academic" instead of as "lifestyle."

 

We should be promoting a rigorous classical education as the birthright of the child of the West. Homeschooling is not about my rights or my lifestyle; it's about my child's birthright to a working knowledge of man's contribution to the world in which he now lives. I have a responsibility to connect him to his heritage, his history. I owe him this.

 

In my opinion, HSLDA and evangelical state homeschool associations have nearly achieved their goal of becoming the voice and face of homeschooling in the United States. HSLDA is working on the same mission globally. But they're not all that homeschooling is, and they're not all that homeschooling ever was. There was another history: John Holt, Raymond Moore, those hippies who co-op'ed with fundamentalist Christians in the 80s. Also, classical home education has a toe in another arena, having more in common with one-room schoolhouses of old and Latin schools and university model schools of today. We have other friends in education, and a history other than evangelical Protestant.

 

We should be introducing ourselves to the nation more deliberately, so that when people think of homeschooling they can't help but think of us.

 

Let's leave legislation to those who can't help themselves and can't think of any other way to address this problem, and let's start being more vocal and visible about what we are doing in our homes. We need to organize and stand up.

 

 

 

How would we do this? I would LOVE for people to know that HSLDA does not speak for me. But I have no idea how to go about being more visible.

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The visible result has been to grant religious homeschoolers special privileges. I doubt that was the intent. As a secular homeschooler I am the one bearing the burden of complying with regulations they are exempt from. It is not an infringement of religious liberty for religious homeschoolers to have to meet the same homeschool reporting requirements as everyone else. 

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that in many (most? all?) of the states with that exemption, the HSLDA had a hand in it.  In which case, I'm 99.9% sure that was the exact intent.

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that in many (most? all?) of the states with that exemption, the HSLDA had a hand in it.  In which case, I'm 99.9% sure that was the exact intent.

LOL, you are quite correct. I was referring to the folks who wrote the Bill of Rights, not the dang state laws. HSLDA is all about special privilege for religious home educators. And no one seems able to speak up for the rest of us. I often think that when it comes to education, at home or in a school, as a secular parent I have fewer rights and more burden than a religious parent. And that is just plain wrong. 

 

Equal laws Infringe religious liberty? No, far from it. 

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The First Amendment protects religious groups from the government meddling in how they choose to run their schools. For example, there are laws against religious discrimination in hiring decisions that apply to secular schools. Do you think a church-affiliated school should be banned by the government from having a requirement that all staff members be members in good standing of that church? We can argue about the merits of having such a hiring requirement, but we should all be able to agree that it is the church school's legal right under the First Amendment to have it.

 

Religious exemptions are absolutely necessary to protect religious liberty, especially in modern times.

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Just an aside:

Then what about kids who have been public schooled whose parents won't fill out the FAFSA parental info so they can't apply to go to college?  Legislation for them too?

 

My parents never filled out a FAFSA for any of us five kids & we all went to & graduated from college. I'm pretty sure you can still attend college without filling out a FAFSA now, but I do understand you can't go to ALL colleges (as some require it now?  :confused1: ). 

 

Still  :bigear: .   :lurk5:

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Just an aside:

 

My parents never filled out a FAFSA for any of us five kids & we all went to & graduated from college. I'm pretty sure you can still attend college without filling out a FAFSA now, but I do understand you can't go to ALL colleges (as some require it now?  :confused1: ). 

 

Still  :bigear: .   :lurk5:

There have been some pretty significant changes to the rules concerning financial aid/FAFSA in the last 15 years. Having an upcooperative parent is a very big deal and does prevent kids from going to school. I actually got married because of it. At the time it was that or drop out. Probably not a good reason to make a major life decision like getting married but I was stuck and my only realistic way out of the life my parents destined me for was to go to college. I suppose I was lucky the whole marriage thing worked out. I was way too young and coming out of a bad situation to realistically be sure I was making a good decision.

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While it is not always easy to find or get help with, students under 24 who are estranged from their parents but who were never legally emancipated CAN get a waiver from needing their parent's information for FAFSA and to be declared an independent student without being in the military, married or a parent.   I have helped A LOT of young adults get these waivers.  The form is usually buried in the financial aid office and you need to talk to the right person.  I am familiar with this because I worked with an organization that helps young adults to age 30 who were previously homeless get a college education.  Many have been estranged from their parents since they were minors over religious and social differences.  It's sad stuff.  

 

I have been following HA for awhile now and think that they are telling stories that need to be told.  I don't think they are anti-all homeschoolers but that in the wake of the trauma many have dealt with, they can be angry.  Heck, I'm angry for them.  It's not for me or anyone else to tell them how they should feel about homeschooling or anything else.  

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There have been some pretty significant changes to the rules concerning financial aid/FAFSA in the last 15 years. Having an upcooperative parent is a very big deal and does prevent kids from going to school. I actually got married because of it. At the time it was that or drop out. Probably not a good reason to make a major life decision like getting married but I was stuck and my only realistic way out of the life my parents destined me for was to go to college. I suppose I was lucky the whole marriage thing worked out. I was way too young and coming out of a bad situation to realistically be sure I was making a good decision.

It seems absurd to me to require the FAFSA. The FAFSA is for government financial aid. If you don't need it, don't want it or know you won't qualify why would you want/need to fill that form out. My parents filled that out for me when I was applying to colleges. We did not qualify for any aid so they didn't even bother when it was time for my sister to apply. That form is a huge time waster for a lot of people!

 

I live in a very low regulation state. I would actually find it insulting to have to report anything I'm teaching my children to the school system. The system is doing such a poor job of teaching the children here. If anything they should be reporting their plans/curriculum to me as a taxpayer footing the bill for the substandard "education".

 

It is much easier to detect abuse when there are more lenient homeschool laws. The stricter the law the more underground someone will go.

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Thanks for adding your perspective, Rainefox.  I'm not caught up on this thread yet, but I wanted to say that this is part of the reason I started the thread--dialogue with other parents who would think of aspects of this issue that wouldn't naturally occur to me.  :)

 

 

I have a point I don't think has been discussed in much depth. While there is a potential for abuse anywhere there is a child, this Coalition is concerned with the sort of abuse that occurs in conservative religious homeschool settings. Without getting into a debate, there is a clear movement in some conservative religious groups toward isolation from others outside the group as well as cultural isolation.

 

 

 

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It is much easier to detect abuse when there are more lenient homeschool laws. The stricter the law the more underground someone will go.

 

How do lenient homeschool laws make it possible to detect abuse?  You might be right, but can you give me some support for your statement?  I'm not seeing the link between the two.  

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I still don't think I've read every post on p. 2 of the thread yet, but...  here are a couple things I think I can add.

 

For those who were questioning how abuse/neglect would be defined if new regulations were put into place, I'm pretty sure the coalition is not recommending new definitions of abuse, but relying on those already in place in each state.  http://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org/child-wellbeing/what-are-abuse-and-neglect/

 

As far as educational neglect goes, some states include it in the child abuse codes; others do not.  http://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org/reporting-educational-neglect/

This doesn't mean it isn't an issue in the states that don't, but it does mean that one would report it to the educational authorities, rather than to social services.

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There have been some pretty significant changes to the rules concerning financial aid/FAFSA in the last 15 years. Having an upcooperative parent is a very big deal and does prevent kids from going to school.

 

I had read previously that some colleges require the FAFSA now (vs. when I went to college - or even when my little brother went not that long ago). But I do have friends who have college-age kids and not all of them were required to fill out the FAFSA, so I know not ALL colleges require it.

 

Well, I could not have gone to college without financial aid. 

 

I could not have gone to college without the scholarships I received. My parents did not pay for any of my college. I went where I had to pay the least amount myself out of pocket. I don't know if that is even possible anymore (as my oldest still has several years to go before applying), but that is how two of the five of us kids did it back-in-the-day. (One went to a military academy & the other two did have help from my parents for some of their expenses.)

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I really, really love the posts that suggest ideas besides legislation that could help.  The discussion about homeschool community and the relationship between religious and non-religious homeschoolers is important, I think.  A new face for homeschooling--what a great idea.  Thanks for using the phrase, Tibbie!

 

I'd like to clarify something about myself.  In case anyone was wondering:  I'm not a part of the coalition...  They haven't asked for my help.  I didn't have any part in coming up with their proposals.  I'm in the brainstorming phase--trying to figure out what I think and how I will respond. 

 

You all have been very helpful to me by voicing your thoughts.   Now I'm off for some last-minute shopping and preparations for christmas festivities.  Thoughts of how to change the world must be put on hold.  ;)

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Also, I questioned the coalition about the need for students to have access to their own educational transcripts.  Here's the response I received:  

 

"We support keeping files on record because of cases of document/identification abuse, where parents use various forms of documents (like transcripts or diplomas) and identification material (social security numbers, driver's licenses) as collateral or manipulation. Students should not have to or need to create their own transcripts. That is not fair to students nor does it reflect well on homeschooling as a responsible educational movement. We respect and support homeschooling parents who are doing their best to educate their children in a nurturing and responsible way. But the sad fact is that a responsible homeschooling parent can't imagine the obstacles irresponsible parents throw in their children's way. That's what we are trying to counteract," emphasis mine.

 

 

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Also, I questioned the coalition about the need for students to have access to their own educational transcripts.  Here's the response I received:  

 

"We support keeping files on record because of cases of document/identification abuse, where parents use various forms of documents (like transcripts or diplomas) and identification material (social security numbers, driver's licenses) as collateral or manipulation. Students should not have to or need to create their own transcripts. That is not fair to students nor does it reflect well on homeschooling as a responsible educational movement. We respect and support homeschooling parents who are doing their best to educate their children in a nurturing and responsible way. But the sad fact is that a responsible homeschooling parent can't imagine the obstacles irresponsible parents throw in their children's way. That's what we are trying to counteract," emphasis mine.

 

It is a sad fact the way some of these kids have been parented, but I still don't see how this situation can be legislated.  :confused:  

 

I also would not be in favor of the public schools having access to my kids' social security numbers and driver's license information.  That would be an invasion of my family's privacy. I don't see how requiring the schools to keep a record of that information would be helpful to kids that find themselves living with these controlling parents.  Don't these kids already have access to their records via the Department of Motor Vehicles or the Social Security agency? 

 .

 

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I had read previously that some colleges require the FAFSA now (vs. when I went to college - or even when my little brother went not that long ago). But I do have friends who have college-age kids and not all of them were required to fill out the FAFSA, so I know not ALL colleges require it.

 

 

I could not have gone to college without the scholarships I received. My parents did not pay for any of my college. I went where I had to pay the least amount myself out of pocket. I don't know if that is even possible anymore (as my oldest still has several years to go before applying), but that is how two of the five of us kids did it back-in-the-day. (One went to a military academy & the other two did have help from my parents for some of their expenses.)

 

Most of the schools ds applied to require the FAFSA in order to be eligible for merit aid.  So a student could not even get a merit scholarship if his parents refused to fill out the forms.

 

Solid adult education without roadblocks for 18-24 year olds would be a huge step in the right direction.

 

The Coalition is interesting, and I have a couple of thoughts. One, it seems that they are really opposed to the religious aspect of homeschooling and two, many, many other people in the ps system are receiving a substandard education. Remedial classes at the cc are not only composed of homeschoolers. (ETA to add: not)

Those students have no recourse there.

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The First Amendment protects religious groups from the government meddling in how they choose to run their schools. For example, there are laws against religious discrimination in hiring decisions that apply to secular schools. Do you think a church-affiliated school should be banned by the government from having a requirement that all staff members be members in good standing of that church? We can argue about the merits of having such a hiring requirement, but we should all be able to agree that it is the church school's legal right under the First Amendment to have it.

 

Religious exemptions are absolutely necessary to protect religious liberty, especially in modern times.

I think that schools run by religious organizations have special privilege when they are not held to the standards that other schools are held to. If schools run by religious organizations want to have MORE requirements because of their religious beliefs, like only hiring people who share those beliefs, that is perfectly fine, and actually I would support any law that protected their right to do that. I do not support the current situation in many states in which declaring a religious belief exempts schools and families from being required to follow the education laws that secular schools and families must follow. What is next? Should religious families get a free pass on traffic laws? Special privilege to bypass driver's license requirements? Then why should they not have to report standardized test scores to the state like everyone else? Or why should a religious school not have a building inspection requirement like a private academic school? Makes no sense and has absolutely nothing to do with the practice of religion. 

 

It is not fine if simply having religious beliefs means that the school or homeschool is completely exempt from meeting the non-religious standards and reporting requirements that secular nonpublic schools and families must meet. This is an unfair burden on secular schools and families and a special privilege for religious schools and families. Once the family or school has demonstrated that they meet the same requirements that other families or schools must meet they can be free to implement any further restrictions or requirements placed on them by their religious beliefs without interference from the government. 

 

In some states, the 'right to homeschool' is only granted to families who homeschool for religious reasons. Secular families have to profess a religious belief or enroll in a church cover or umbrella school in order to homeschool because they cannot legally homeschool without pretending to be religious. This is wrong also. 

 

The government should not be able to 'meddle' in my homeschool just because I do not practice a religion but you consider it 'meddling' if another family, a religious family, has to meet the same burden of requirements for reporting that I do? And you do not consider that 'special privilege?' This 'meddling' as you call it, has nothing at all to do with religion or religious belief when it means reporting attendance, or test scores, or submitting a portfolio for review. It is not 'meddling' when religious families get a free pass to ignore the law because of their religion. It isn't 'meddling' to make sure a building used for a school has a fire extinguisher even if it's a religious school. 

 

Perhaps I shall begin a new religion, the Church of the Angry Monkey, and proclaim the Word of the Angry Monkey through out the land. I shall write a holy book and fill it with handy ambiguous statements. My homeschooling families can then homeschool in freedom, with the bonds of oppression and mandatory reporting stricken from their schools and homeschools by their holy conversion to the Church of the Angry Monkey . Do not speak out against my God, the Angry Monkey, because my rights will be violated. You must accept my sincerely held belief and relieve me of any requirements for an occupancy permit for  my Angry Monkey schools, and my followers, with their sincerely held beliefs in the Angry Monkey, are now exempt from filing pretty much any paperwork at all if they homeschool in Virginia. Contact me for cover school information, ye residents of states that require such. The most basic tenet of the Church of the Angry Monkey is that you should homeschool in peace, teaching real science instead of creationism, and teaching Latin too. Greek is optional. The children shall be required to read as many books as they wish and to memorize the poetry of Robert Louis Stevenson. Separate worship groups may be set up for those who chose the Way of Spiral Math and those who chose the Way of Math Mastery. I'll be busy setting up our website so we can take in nontaxable charitable donations to continue our ministry, and mission trips will begin in the near future. 

 

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Should religious families get a free pass on traffic laws? Special privilege to bypass driver's license requirements?

Red herring. Traffic laws do not interfere with the free practice of religion. The government dictating how private religious schools must be run absolutely does.

 

I don't think you truly understand how religious believers cannot compartmentalize education from religion. Religion is the framework through which believers view EVERYTHING in life. It is impossible to educate in a completely objective and neutral manner. Education is always going to involve passing on a particular worldview to the students, whether that worldview is religious or secular. For religious educators, religion is the 4th "R" and is just as central to schooling (if not more so) as English and math. To interfere with how religious groups choose to run their schools *IS* to interfere with the free practice of religion.

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In some states, the 'right to homeschool' is only granted to families who homeschool for religious reasons. Secular families have to profess a religious belief or enroll in a church cover or umbrella school in order to homeschool because they cannot legally homeschool without pretending to be religious. This is wrong also.

That is a separate issue. I agree with you that the right to homeschool should be granted to secular families as well as religious ones and that is legislation that I think virtually all of us on this forum would support.

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In some states, the 'right to homeschool' is only granted to families who homeschool for religious reasons. Secular families have to profess a religious belief or enroll in a church cover or umbrella school in order to homeschool because they cannot legally homeschool without pretending to be religious. This is wrong also. 

 

Wow.  This is SO wrong.  What state(s) has this law?

 

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In some states, the 'right to homeschool' is only granted to families who homeschool for religious reasons. Secular families have to profess a religious belief or enroll in a church cover or umbrella school in order to homeschool because they cannot legally homeschool without pretending to be religious. This is wrong also.

 

I live in a state that requires one to have a "church cover school" in order to homeschool. Basically, homeschooling falls under freedom of religion practices, I guess. Without that, I don't think anyone would be allowed to homeschool here. :glare:

 

That said... Many of the church cover schools do not require the homeschooler to be religious. In fact, I know of one "church cover school" that is not really religious at all. They have a group that meets together once a week, but it is not to worship anyone or anything. The members are secular. ;) "church" technically just means "assembly", so if you have a group getting together, you can call that a "church". A church doesn't necessarily have to be religious, and I'd say that a group of atheists could get together and have a "church". It just wouldn't be a Christian church (actually, I've heard of atheist churches starting up around the country, not related to homeschooling).

 

I think I actually have more problem with the church cover school thing as a Christian than most secular people in my state would. Churches following my religious beliefs don't set up cover schools, because they don't believe that's the work of the church. So I'm having to sign up with a cover school that is run by a church that I think shouldn't be doing such things. I would sign up with the cover school that isn't religious, but their website is very hippy/unschooly, and I don't want future colleges or employers to go see that and think we were hippy/unschooly (no offense intended toward hippies or unschoolers - we're just neither of those and don't wish to be identified as such). If that cover school had a normal looking website (which they used to!), I'd be fine with using them. The only other cover school I know of not run by a church is ridiculously expensive, so I go with one run by a church (with a professional looking website) and just deal with it. Many, many cover schools are run by churches but do not require a statement of faith or anything like that, so it's just as easy for secular homeschoolers here as it is for religious homeschoolers. I do wish they'd quit requiring cover schools to be affiliated with a church, but oh well. At least we can homeschool here, and we're not heavily regulated (we just have to report days absent :lol:).

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In some states, the 'right to homeschool' is only granted to families who homeschool for religious reasons. Secular families have to profess a religious belief or enroll in a church cover or umbrella school in order to homeschool because they cannot legally homeschool without pretending to be religious. This is wrong also. 

 

 

In which states, specifically, is this the law? I have never heard of this before and doubt this is true.

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Yeppers. Homeschooling is apparently a RELIGIOUS right. You secular people really shouldn't be doing it. :)

 

Alabama, for example, allows only two options for home education. One is to establish or enroll in a church school and the other is to hire a private tutor with teacher certification. I think we can agree that it is certainly an unfair burden on secular families to have to either become a certified teacher or to be able to afford to employ one. There are a few more states, the ones that require cover and umbrella schools I believe, in which the cover schools are supposed to be religious. I will post a more learned and properly researched post on THAT with exact requirements, in a new thread, as soon as I can. 

 

Most of the rest of the states have religious families exempt from most if not all paperwork requirements including attendance, because we all know that religion is soooo important in determining how many days a year your kids should be educated. I'm thinking new thread here. 

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I live in a state that requires one to have a "church cover school" in order to homeschool. Basically, homeschooling falls under freedom of religion practices, I guess. Without that, I don't think anyone would be allowed to homeschool here. :glare:

 

That said... Many of the church cover schools do not require the homeschooler to be religious. In fact, I know of one "church cover school" that is not really religious at all. They have a group that meets together once a week, but it is not to worship anyone or anything. The members are secular. ;) ).

 

Wow.  I had no idea some states regulated homeschooling in this manner.  Do you have to pay fees to belong to the cover school?  Are you required to attend the weekly meetings?  Has there been any discussion in the secular homeschooling community in your state to try to change these laws?

 

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Yeppers. Homeschooling is apparently a RELIGIOUS right. You secular people really shouldn't be doing it. :)

 

Alabama, for example, allows only two options for home education. One is to establish or enroll in a church school and the other is to hire a private tutor with teacher certification. I think we can agree that it is certainly an unfair burden on secular families to have to either become a certified teacher or to be able to afford to employ one. There are a few more states, the ones that require cover and umbrella schools I believe, in which the cover schools are supposed to be religious. I will post a more learned and properly researched post on THAT with exact requirements, in a new thread, as soon as I can. 

 

Most of the rest of the states have religious families exempt from most if not all paperwork requirements including attendance, because we all know that religion is soooo important in determining how many days a year your kids should be educated. I'm thinking new thread here. 

 

Can a family establish their own church school.  In Ohio I could form an "08" school based on my religious beliefs. 

 

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I just spent some time at the Homeschooling's Invisible Children site. Its founders are two of the five board members at CRS. They are shedding light onto the "dark side of homeschooling" where children are abused and murdered. The problem I see as I read these horrific cases is that homeschooling regulations have NOTHING to do with what happens to these kids. Many were ps'ed who pulled their kids out when authorities suspected abuse. Why was there no follow-up? These kids fell through the cracks as way too many kids do. Others had mentally unstable parents - the Yates family, for example. I didn't read nearly all the cases, but they also included at least 2 kidnapping victims (one by her ps teacher). This kind of sensationalism rubs me the wrong way. It makes it difficult for me trust this group or their motives.

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Alabama, for example, allows only two options for home education. One is to establish or enroll in a church school and the other is to hire a private tutor with teacher certification. I think we can agree that it is certainly an unfair burden on secular families to have to either become a certified teacher or to be able to afford to employ one.

 

My post prior to yours was talking about Alabama. Have you homeschooled in Alabama? It's just as easy for secular people as for religious people, as I mentioned in my post.

 

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