Coalition for Responsible Home Education

[La Texican]

Since I'm obviously more curious about the legislative part of these ideas and how to construct the laws that would actually do any good, and not just something that " I don't see how it could hurt, but it might help", I found this interesting. I was thinking that they wanted to create legisllation about homeschool regulation, but education is regulated on a State level, not federal. I googled the terms "federal homeschool statutes" to see if what I thought was true. (If you'll remember my post earlier I learned in another thread that some States say children have the legal right to aneducation, somd States don't and the federal government refuses to at this point, because some people have tried.)

Anyway, the HLSDA, intentionally or not (?) has sowed the seeds for federal homeschool legislation. They have inserted the word "homeschoolers" into the USC several times, the federal statutes. Cont in next post because my stupid tablet keeps pasting wherever it wants, instead ofwhere I tell it to.

[La Texican]

http://www.nheld.com/BTN12.htm

[La Texican]

I have read statutes before (nerdy, I know) (actually, I needed to get rid of a dog problem intown and I did that by googling a statute, writing one for my town, and getting it passed at some town hall meetings). Anyway, part of the law is created in the definitions section of the statutes. I think that link is right. I think HSLDA has opened the door by writi g that word in those statutes. If this group wanted legislation passed they'd get that definition written into those statutes, then homescooling could be regulated. What kind of regulation do you guys want? If they're going to start writing regulations, then you know a bunch of people's gonna have a bunch of ideas. Posters who have said here, "that's a good idea, Ithink I would be willing to submit tothat." What else do you want to add, because you might get your chance. I'm not being snarky. Now I think it's a good idea to start writing down what you think the laws should be. Someone's gonna, might as wellbe you.

[La Texican]

Back to the question, besides legislation, what do you think we should do? I think charities, mission houses for young adults who fell through the cracks, to point them to job corp, pell grants, and the military, or even missionary work if they were religious, as ways to integrate into society would have been better.

[La Texican]

One other thing, on the law as it stands now for people like this group, I got to thinking about that polygamous cult that had their children taken away and what the courts decided about those children who were obviously raised "off the grid", in a cult, with a limited future, in a homeschool environment. Not knowing the outcome, I googled, none of that was illegal, only the actual illegal abuse of girls between the ages of 12-18.

[La Texican]

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1730471,00.html

[La Texican]

The statute I had passed in town defined dogs that chase you down the street as dangerous dogs. After the statute defined dangerous dogs regulation could be written about dangerous dogs. You couldn't just make a law saying dogs can't chase you down the street. A statute had to create a defintion of dangerous dogs (ones that chase you down the street) before you could make a law against it with a due process prescribed if they did. Because the HSLDA got the word homeschooler put into several federal statutes (see link above) they can put a definition of homeschooler at the top of any one of those statutes and homeschoolers will be legally defined and can be regulated.

[Seasider]

Sadly, I know first hand of several loving, nonabusive homeschooling families that are not providing their children an adequate education. It would be dishonest to say that every homeschooling family does a great job of educating their children. So I am not surprised that this group has arisen and found its voice. But it is also disingenuous to say that all who do not provide stellar academics are abusive. Anyone living in horrendous public school districts would then have to be lumped in as abusing their kids for not giving them an adequate education.

 

Lots of other thoughts, but I cannot express them concisely, so I'll just enjoy reading the rest of your comments. I will say it makes me sad that the formation of groups like HA has valid reasons behind it (maybe not their full agenda, but the reason they found this collective voice).

[ColleenInWis]

Seasider, I agree because I also know families who have neglected parts of their kids' education but are not necessarily abusive.  

 

Doesn't it sometimes come down to what the parents value?  The very fact that we are homeschooling shows that we disagree with what gov't schools are doing, and that we think we can do better.  Often, this means we decide not to teach something (or at least to spend less time on something) that we don't value highly.  Science, for example.     

[ColleenInWis]

http://www.nheld.com/BTN12.htm

 

Thanks for keeping us informed.  This is problematic that HSLDA has done this--our state grass-roots homeschool organization, Wisconsin Parents Association, has been criticizing HSLDA on things like this for years.  

 

If you or anyone else here wants to discuss these ideas with the HA or CRHE writers themselves, I have a suggestion.  If you can find any of their personal blogs, you should be able to leave comments there and connect personally with that writer.  For example, at Homeschoolers Anonymous, many of the articles were previously posted on the personal blog first, so a link is included.     

[WishboneDawn]

Back to the question, besides legislation, what do you think we should do? I think charities, mission houses for young adults who fell through the cracks, to point them to job corp, pell grants, and the military, or even missionary work if they were religious, as ways to integrate into society would have been better.

One thing I would like to see is honesty when we talk about homeschooling outside our circles. We say were a diverse community but I'm reminded of when I listened to a radio call-in show on the subject of homeschooling. Word had got around the different homeschooling communities and so most of the calls were from homeschool extolling the virtues of homeschooling. It DID make us sound like like minded community. In our rush to present positive stories and counter the myth we sounded like we all subscribed to the same set of values and beliefs.

 

We have discussions here about the struggles, disadvantages and such. Why don't we share those? Why not share the tension that goes on between different homeschooling groups? We should be getting to the point where were a somewhat mature movement now and we can move past that reflexive defensiveness.

[La Texican]

That's why I pointed that out as soon as I read that about the HLSDA the other day. It's. The same thing I've been talking about in this thread, about what you say you're trying to to do vs. what you're actually doing, or the side effects of what you're doing if you don't know exactly what you're doing. That's why I pointed out that blogger said "if blah, blah, then they'd shut down failing homeschools just like they shut down failing schools. Well, how they shut down failing schools is after a five year grace period after State testing begins in the third grade, which is eigth grade. She was in school by ninth grade anyway, what does she think the law would have changed? (maybe her parents attitude, but definitely nothing legally about what they did.). The hlsda is probably aware of the side effect of what they just did since they're lawyers. I'm not a lawyer, just someone who goes to town hall meetings and learned about statutes through reading comprehension by necessity. I may think of a reason later to talk to some of these on their blogs, but I can't see any good reason to right now. They're trying to do what they think they should be doing. I don't see a reason to try to convince them not to. I don't see a compelling reason to go try to help them in the goals I've seen yet either. There's really no benefit to me reading and talking in this thread either since there's other threads here to help teach my kids better or help someone with something that I've seen that worked. I just like this thread because it's a thought game with an unsolved problem in it and real-time real world people and politics involved. What's that called, armchair quarterbacking, or something like that. It's fun to try to see the big picture of something that's not shown clearly.

[La Texican]

Wishbone Dawn, I don't listen to talk radio, and whatever you're hearing about homeschooling would vary by region anyway. I'd give an example, but it's irrelevant. But don't you think that this forum and all the homeschool blogs are already "putting it out there" but the general public really has no reason to care? My neighbors all work and send their kids to public school and go work some more. They send their kids to school because it's the right thing to do, and where else would they stay while theparents both work non-stop. Of course they want their kids to turn out ok, but they don't think that much about their own kids education because they're busy working. How much time do you think they want to spend thinking about my kids education (don't I wish they wanted to spend hours talking about education), or how long do they want to spend talking about my opinion that some homeschoolers don't teach science. I have an opinion on that. There is a Baptist ran homeschool group 45 minutes away that has homeschool park days for the kids to play. I called the leader, admitted I was athiest, she paused and said "we accept all denominations". During the conversation I said, "I can't believe Texas only requires five subjects, and don't require science or history, much less arts and music." She answered, "that's kind of good because one of my kids liked science and the others didn't. " Should I have said something to her for not teaching some of her kids one of the subject? Should I have made a public announcement that some parents don't teach their kids science? Who would I tell to let the public know? My neighbors don't have a bunch of extra time they want to spend pondering their own kids education, or mine (boy, do I wish), much less this person that none of us knows. If we did talk about it, I'm not sure if my neighbors would think it was stranger that she didn't teach science, or that I didn't send my kids to church. Do you think I should have spoke up? To whom? What would you have liked me to say besides awkward silence? I'm asking because you said we shouldn't hide the fact that some homeschoolers don't teach science. This is a real world application of that sentiment. What do you think I, a fellow homeschooler, should do or say about this information that this fellow homeschooler only taught science to one of her kids.

[La Texican]

It's worse (and this might get blown off as the cliché about comparing homeschool to public school), I put my kid in public school for pre-k, they liked him, they liked that he's advanced, but I expected that I would finally find someone local to talk about education with, the teachers who do it all day, but they are not as "into" education as I am. :( I'm just as sad about that as you are about the failing homeschools. This is not an academic town (oilfield). I wanted to help the town by getting the kids free books mailed every month for every kid in town under five from Dolly Parton's imagination program. This would get the kids excited about reading from a young age, getting mail with their name on it and books strewn about the house. You need a non-profit to use their status and a corporation to pay for the books. I know one of the oil companies would be happy to pay, but none of the non-profits were interested. The school principal said no, it was for kids under five. The non-profit community art center said, no, it's books not art. I said, Dolly Parton's an artist. They said no, she's a corporation. I muttered, she's a successful artist. The city hall manager said, do youthink there's enough people that want books? I dropped it. I probably shouldn't have dropped it. I'll probably bring it up to the city manager again after she finishes getting the aggressive dogs off the streets. But my point is that you want to start a movement, or an awareness to get the public agitated against sub-standard homeschooling. Well, to me, you'd have to get the public more interested in education to start with. Otherwise, yes, you could get the public riled up against substandard homeschoolers (as it doesn't affect the riled up public in the least, and yes, you have some heart-wrentching stories to rallly behind), but where would you direct that mob? Would they suddenly get more time and interest in educational things? Would they just give it a few seconds thought to say, okay, add this and that regulation to that group over there called "homeschoolers"? and then get on with their lives and forget about it? You want the public involved, in what way? (Not saying not to get the public involved, just saying questions I would consider, if this was my mission I was involved in.)

[Leav97]

It's worse (and this might get blown off as the cliché about comparing homeschool to public school), I put my kid in public school for pre-k, they liked him, they liked that he's advanced, but I expected that I would finally find someone local to talk about education with, the teachers who do it all day, but they are not as "into" education as I am. :( I'm just as sad about that as you are about the failing homeschools. This is not an academic town (oilfield). I wanted to help the town by getting the kids free books mailed every month for every kid in town under five from Dolly Parton's imagination program. This would get the kids excited about reading from a young age, getting mail with their name on it and books strewn about the house. You need a non-profit to use their status and a corporation to pay for the books. I know one of the oil companies would be happy to pay, but none of the non-profits were interested. The school principal said no, it was for kids under five. The non-profit community art center said, no, it's books not art. I said, Dolly Parton's an artist. They said no, she's a corporation. I muttered, she's a successful artist. The city hall manager said, do youthink there's enough people that want books? I dropped it. I probably shouldn't have dropped it. I'll probably bring it up to the city manager again after she finishes getting the aggressive dogs off the streets. But my point is that you want to start a movement, or an awareness to get the public agitated against sub-standard homeschooling. Well, to me, you'd have to get the public more interested in education to start with. Otherwise, yes, you could get the public riled up against substandard homeschoolers (as it doesn't affect the riled up public in the least, and yes, you have some heart-wrentching stories to rallly behind), but where would you direct that mob? Would they suddenly get more time and interest in educational things? Would they just give it a few seconds thought to say, okay, add this and that regulation to that group over there called "homeschoolers"? and then get on with their lives and forget about it? You want the public involved, in what way? (Not saying not to get the public involved, just saying questions I would consider, if this was my mission I was involved in.)

 

Talk to the pediatrician\Family practice\county health office.  Our area has a similar program and it goes through the Dr office.  Maybe even the hospital for new deliveries.

[Crimson Wife]

We have discussions here about the struggles, disadvantages and such. Why don't we share those? Why not share the tension that goes on between different homeschooling groups?

Because airing one's dirty laundry in public is like giving ammo to those who are aiming at our heads. Too many people want to see us go the way of Germany and ban HSing entirely.

[La Texican]

It's not hidden. She even said "like the stuff we talk about on this (public) (high ranking on google search) forum. I know that my town is on the lower end of caring about education because of job security and the oilfield pays anyone who shows up as good as many college grads start out with. I know there are some towns full of academic types, but I'll bet most of the towns in the middle are similar to what I'm describing as far as the parents spend all day working and the most thought they give their own children's education is what's on their report card, making sure they do their homework, and maybe planning for college. If they're not going to spend more time than that thinking about their own children's education, then how much time they'll spend thinking about our children's education?

I think I can get that book program going if I go to the oilfield office first, then the non-profits because then it looks like there's local interest. I hadn't thought about the rural clinic. They are a non-profit come to think of it.

But I'm describing the push back I'm getting from the local schools trying to help them improve. I had the principal turn me down when I offered to write a grant application to get a traveling museum to bring a paleontologist with some dinosaur bones to do a show at the school because we would have had to ask the superintendant andthe principal "didn't want to make waves" by letting me ask. I know, I could have gone over her head and asked anyway.

I'm trying to explain why people bring up the public schools when we talk about homeschool reform. It's because this is the public you want us to appeal to when you say we should call into radio stations. These are the people you're asking to consider and weigh our arguements when you ask for government legislation. You have to craft your arguement, which this thread began by asking for, but you also have to adjust for the crowd you're presenting your arguement to. I've described what I think that crowd you'll be appealing to is. I would like to hear someone else's description of the crowd, or American public you're appealing to when you call into a radio station or ask for legislation, and how you think they'd interpret your request, and what you think their solution will be? Will it be close to the solution you envisioned?

[La Texican]

Dialectica, it's interesting that you have seen a real time public debate about homeschooling and I see how public understanding of homeschooling is very important in that situation. What were the issues debated? What were some of the specifics about the outcome (besides, it's legal). When people debated homeschooling, what were the arguements on both sides? Was most of the country very interested in the outcome, or only a few?

[WishboneDawn]

Because airing one's dirty laundry in public is like giving ammo to those who are aiming at our heads. Too many people want to see us go the way of Germany and ban HSing entirely.

Where I live I'm pretty sure we're past that. I haven't met a person in ages who didn't already know homeschoolers and viewed it favorably. I suspect it isn't just my little corner of the country that's like that.

 

I'm not sure it's dirty laundry either. It's just the reality of homeschooling and hiding the hard bits simply feeds into the stereotypes that are still out there. The constant positivity and denial of any possible issues IS the dirty laundry that feeds suspicions and justifies their attempts to pry into our homeschooling with legislation.

 

La Texican- This is a public board that anyone can read but posting here about the challenges of homeschooling is not the same as being honest about the challenges of homeschooling when we're talking to people outside our group. It's the difference between letting a few people eavesdrop, if they know where to find us, and actively engaging others in our discussion.

[snowbeltmom]

Where I live I'm pretty sure we're past that. I haven't met a person in ages who didn't already know homeschoolers and viewed it favorably. I suspect it isn't just my little corner of the country that's like that.

 

I'm not sure it's dirty laundry either. It's just the reality of homeschooling and hiding the hard bits simply feeds into the stereotypes that are still out there. The constant positivity and denial of any possible issues IS the dirty laundry that feeds suspicions and justifies their attempts to pry into our homeschooling with legislation.

 

La Texican- This is a public board that anyone can read but posting here about the challenges of homeschooling is not the same as being honest about the challenges of homeschooling when we're talking to people outside our group. It's the difference between letting a few people eavesdrop, if they know where to find us, and actively engaging others in our discussion.

 

Who is trying to pry into our homeschooling with legislation?  A senator in Ohio recently tried to repeal the current homeschool laws and the backlash was so forceful that she withdrew the bill a few days after its announcement.  Are there currently attempts in other states to modify the existing homeschool laws with new legislation?

 

I don't talk about homeschooling with non-homeschoolers because they don't care what goes on in the homeschooling community.  Maybe the non-interest is limited to my neck of the woods.  Have you found non-homeschoolers in your area to be interested in hearing about the challenges of homeschooling?

 

[Crimson Wife]

My state had a court case a few years back that almost led to the banning of HSing by those who did not hold a state teaching credential. During that time period before the appeals court overturned the lower court judge's ruling, *LOTS* of people told me they thought independent HSing should be banned. These people believed that only families who use public school independent study programs overseen by a credentialed teacher should be allowed to home educate.

 

We need to be careful not to provide fuel for those who fear homeschooling and want to see it banned.

[La Texican]

We ask you to use your authority as a lawmaker to maintain and legislate good homeschool policy. For more on the best practices we suggest and encourage, see our Policy Recommendations page.

Who is trying to pry into our homeschooling with legislation?  A senator in Ohio recently tried to repeal the current homeschool laws and the backlash was so forceful that she withdrew the bill a few days after its announcement.  Are there currently attempts in other states to modify the existing homeschool laws with new legislation?

 

I don't talk about homeschooling with non-homeschoolers because they don't care what goes on in the homeschooling community.  Maybe the non-interest is limited to my neck of the woods.  Have you found non-homeschoolers in your area to be interested in hearing about the challenges of homeschooling.

The Coalition For Responsible Homeschooling is asking for legislation. They're not quite sure what legislation they want to ask for yet. They're asking for input and trying to work out the details because they admit homeschool regulation is a nuanced proposition. But that is the whole purpose of the organization. The quote above is from their page to lawmakers. On every other page they only use the words policy (for making laws), oversight, and regulation. What are they talking about, if not legislation?

[snowbeltmom]

We ask you to use your authority as a lawmaker to maintain and legislate good homeschool policy. For more on the best practices we suggest and encourage, see our Policy Recommendations page.

The Coalition For Responsible Homeschooling is asking for legislation. They're not quite sure what legislation they want to ask for yet. They're asking for input and trying to work out the details because they admit homeschool regulation is a nuanced proposition. But that is the whole purpose of the organization. The quote above is from their page to lawmakers. On every other page they only use the words policy (for making laws), oversight, and regulation. What are they talking about, if not legislation?

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post.  I realize that this homeschooling group is pushing more legislation.  I was responding to this comment in my reply:

 

"I'm not sure it's dirty laundry either. It's just the reality of homeschooling and hiding the hard bits simply feeds into the stereotypes that are still out there. The constant positivity and denial of any possible issues IS the dirty laundry that feeds suspicions and justifies their attempts to pry into our homeschooling with legislation.

 

La Texican- This is a public board that anyone can read but posting here about the challenges of homeschooling is not the same as being honest about the challenges of homeschooling when we're talking to people outside our group. It's the difference between letting a few people eavesdrop, if they know where to find us, and actively engaging others in our discussion"

 

Maybe I misunderstood this post. I understood "people outside our group" to be non-homeschoolers, and that these non-homeschoolers were attempting to further regulate homeschooling.  That was certainly the case recently in Ohio.  I was just wondering if there are any non-homeschoolers attempting this in other states.

 

[La Texican]

Snowbelt mom- that was wishbone dawn, and crimson wife, and me discussing the reputation of homeschoolers, whether we are ambassadors or spokespersons for homeschooling, how much the general public needs, or even wants to hear about it from us. I say they don't care, they don't even follow their own kids education that close. (and I thought of a good way to know, how much of your community follows the schoolboard elections?)

 

Dilectica, so it does totally depend on which crowd is in power when you present your case, and how they interpret, and implement their decision, not on what your actual facts you presented were. If it's only been a couple of years ago, then they can turn it over on a whim, right!?

 

What were the gypsies like before this homeschooling act was passed? Were they ignored, were they prosecuted, were they given special allowences? I mentioned the (Warren Jeff) polagamy cult. They had something like 400 children they were homeschooling, isolating, limiting their future options, and even abusing teenage girls a certain way. I linked the Time magazine article that shows the only illegal part of all that was the sexual abuse of teenagers, which is illegal in any situation. Besides homeschoolers, we have other groups that are isolated and uneducated and their futures limited. Inner city ghetto kids are often talked about being truant for most of the year, some because the schools are really bad, some because the parents really don't care, some are out getting money on the street. That is illegal. The cult homeschooling compound is not illegal. Truancy in the ghetto is illegal, but no one can fix it so it's kind of "look the other way" and make charities to try to help.

 

So were the gypsies a protected minority with homeschool rights, or were they illegal like the truant ghetto kids, and just cost too much/were too hard to round up everyday for school? If they were illegal, do you think they will sign up to become legal now that homeschooling is an option, or remain "underground".

 

Will the legalization of homeschooling change the way unregistered gypsies are handled, will the law be more aggressively rounding up unregistered gypsies?

[La Texican]

This clip is wishbone dawn talking to me, not a quote from me. There is no anti-homeschool effort where I live. Education is mostly a non-issue here.

La Texican- This is a public board that anyone can read but posting here about the challenges of homeschooling is not the same as being honest about the challenges of homeschooling when we're talking to people outside our group. It's the difference between letting a few people eavesdrop, if they know where to find us, and actively engaging others in our discussion"

 

Maybe I misunderstood this post. I understood "people outside our group" to be non-homeschoolers, and that these non-homeschoolers were attempting to further regulate homeschooling.  That was certainly the case recently in Ohio.  I was just wondering if there are any non-homeschoolers attempting this in other states.
 

 

[ColleenInWis]

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post.  I realize that this homeschooling group is pushing more legislation.  I was responding to this comment in my reply:

...

 

Maybe I misunderstood this post. I understood "people outside our group" to be non-homeschoolers, and that these non-homeschoolers were attempting to further regulate homeschooling.  That was certainly the case recently in Ohio.  I was just wondering if there are any non-homeschoolers attempting this in other states.

 

 

HSLDA keeps track of legislative and judicial challenges to homeschooling:  http://www.hslda.org/LandingPages/  Our state (Wisconsin) hasn't had any challenges (to my knowledge) for years, but there are times when legislation comes up relating to home education.  

 

Another organization, which disagrees w/HSLDA on how to approach some of these issues, is NHELD.  I would like to read more about them, but haven't had time yet.  One big difference between them and HSLDA:  HSLDA meddles in federal legislation to "protect" parenting and homeschool rights.  NHELD believes that we should not try to get our rights "granted" by the federal gov't.  Reason:  these rights are inalienable--not given to us by the gov't; if the feds give them to us, they can also take them away and regulate them.  

[La Texican]

That doesn't sound like anything here. It's more like the polygamy cult because the gypsies sound like they're basically legal what they're doing, or the government's not trying to regulate them, but they have a whole different set of problems. I think in the cults the men were earning money, not sending the children to. I haven't been very far into Mexico, just going on what I've heard, I think they have very poor neighborhoods like that called colonias. They live in rubble and shacks made of tin and scrap wood. The kids beg and scavange. There is no medacaid or welfare. The middle class is reportedly a lot like us, and they have public schools. The rich kids get an excellent education.

But you're talking about war and social revolution, and it all sounds very recent too. Has your government stabilized? How old is your current government system? What is it, a democracy now? I'd guess, but I'll ask instead of guessing, did the communist government provide welfare (housing, foodstamps, medacaid) for the poverty-stricken who were in the system (obviously not the gypsies, who sound like outlaws, not under the law and not protected by the law). What was the economic status of the citizens under communism? Was it like America, mostly middle class with a poverty group and a rich group? Did everybody go to work and earn a paycheck and pay bills, just the businesses were owned by the government? How has working and paying bills changed post-communism? (I wasn't a regular on this board in 2011, so I missed all that).

[ColleenInWis]

Hey, I haven't been around here as long as most of you, but maybe some of these topics should be in their own thread?  I just found out what "s/o" means here--"shoot-off."  So "what legislation is being proposed in your state to limit homeschool?" could be a shoot-off, and "home education in Europe/dialectica's country" could be another shoot-off.  You might find some others who are interested in those topics who aren't reading this one...    I leave the decision to those of you discussing these topics, okay?  :)  

[snowbeltmom]

Back to the topic, I think many of us are scared that groups like CRHE can limit our rights and this forces us into a defensive position. That's why these spin-off discussions about limiting rights are now happening on this very thread. It's hard to separate visions of a future with limited rights from CRHE's proposals. I do think a discussion on how to protect children from educational and spiritual abuse in the context of homeschooling has merit, but it is automatically tied to a discussion on how to protect the homeschool rights of those who don't face these issues. 

 

:iagree:

 

[La Texican]

And just in case I'm coming across wrong, I'm not saying the unseen homeschool children don't deserve help because they're not as bad off as the mexican colonias children, or the gypsies, or the American kids kidnapped by drug cartels, that's not my intent. I brought up the cartel kids because I hear more about them here on the news and in daily conversation than I hear about educational issues, homechooling, or in general.

 

I think asking for legislation that defines new kinds of abuse and neglect has to include provisions for due process. The only place I've seen this even vaguely addressed is the girl blogger that said "so they can close down failing homeschools like they close down failing schools (I already addressed the flaw in that logic), and with an appeals process for parents who are railroaded with an anti-homeschool bias. You know what part of due process this does not address? The consequences for families who are guilty under the new regulations. The cost and the resources that have to come out of either the school district, the state, or social services. The state can't just tell you "do better, it's the law". How and why would they fund prosecuting homeschool families for a separate standard of abuse and neglect than for everybody else?

[Crimson Wife]

Back to the topic, I think many of us are scared that groups like CRHE can limit our rights and this forces us into a defensive position. That's why these spin-off discussions about limiting rights are now happening on this very thread. It's hard to separate visions of a future with limited rights from CRHE's proposals. I do think a discussion on how to protect children from educational and spiritual abuse in the context of homeschooling has merit, but it is automatically tied to a discussion on how to protect the homeschool rights of those who don't face these issues.

I think what the group is doing is dangerous for several reasons.

 

1. It gives outsiders the impression that the unfortunate environment in which these ex-HSers grew up is the norm among HS families, or at the very least WAAAAAAAY more common than it really is. I've been fighting this misperception for the past 7 1/2 years that I've been HSing. Yes, there are HS families out there who are whacko ulta-fundamentalists involved in cultish churches/movements, but they fortunately make up only a tiny percentage of all HSers.

 

2. It promotes the idea that increased government intrusion into HSing is the solution to abuse/neglect rather than enforcing the existing laws against abuse & neglect.

 

3. Instead of looking for solutions that a broad coalition of HSers would support like strengthening adult education programs so that a poor K-12 education (whether received at home, PS, or a B&M private school) would not be a permanent barrier to a better future, they are pushing a very divisive pro-regulation agenda. We've got enough enemies outside of HSing, we don't need to be bickering among ourselves.

[Crimson Wife]

the fact is that a poor education (received anywhere) can indeed be a permanent barrier to a better future. Some may overcome it, but that is not guaranteed in any way. I, for one, am still dealing with the consequences of my poor public school education, in which my learning disability was completely overlooked.

I don't disagree. I just think that as the problem of poor K-12 education is much bigger than a handful of bitter (who have every right to be so given their experiences but let's call a spade a spade) ex-HSers, the focus of action should not be HS-specific.

[cathmom]

I'm not suggesting anything.  The coalition is suggesting it.  I'm suggesting that homeschool parents think about the problems, discuss possible solutions, and encourage one another to be responsible, to live up to the great reputation we want home education to have.  I'm suggesting we analyze proposed legislation ourselves, rather than relying on HSLDA to tell us what to support or not support.      

 

There are homeschooling parents who won't even admit that there are negatives about homeschooling.

That's a good start to getting more info.  I found this long list of individuals and organizations accused of associating with Doug Phillips, who was one of the biggest "patriarchy" teachers/promoters before his recent downfall.  We received the Vision Forum catalog for years, until they finally figured out we weren't going to buy anything.  

 

But there are other myths that I think lead into bad situations for homeschool families.  What about "encouraging" a parent by saying something to the effect that no matter what we do in educating our children at home, it's better than sending them to public schools?  A variation on this myth is that everyone can homeschool.  It may be taken further to state, "All christians must homeschool."  There are unfortunate side effects to this myth, like a mom with mental illness trying to homeschool her children.  Or a family determined to homeschool even when it isn't working for a particular child.       

 

 

I've seen this sort of propaganda over and over and over in the homeschooling community. "Just keeping your child out of school, even if you don't do anything else, is better than sending them to school."  When I was deciding to send my dc to school, I had almost decided when I suddenly had a huge panic attack that I was turning my back on everything I believed about education by enrolling them in school. The pressure to continue homeschooling can be overwhelming even when not part of a cult.

 

Colleen, gently, did you even read any of their stories? If you did, you would know why they talk about records and vaccines. Some of them grew up so far off the grid that they have real problems getting any sort of Identification. One mom talks about how her one son will NEVER be able to get a passport, he just does not have enough forms of identification. This is a problem. And yes, it does relate to homeschooling, because doctor and school records would have helped provide proof of DOB. Please consider the issues these people have to deal with before you discount them as silly.

 

I'm sorry that you were abused. But how would you feel if your school education supported and encouraged your abuse? How would you feel if those who knew you were being abused told you that your parents were just a little lower than God so shut up? How would you feel if you were told to never think about what happened to you as abuse and never talk about it, so as to not besmirch the good name of Public Schooling? This is what these people need to deal with All. The. Time.

 

So, lots of people abuse their kids for various reasons. They're alcoholics, depressed, sociopaths, etc. It's sad, yes. But some of these people also use homeschooling to perpetuate their abuse and make it a million times worse. We are homeschoolers, if we aren't concerned about this, who the heck should be? The apathy and antagonism expressed on this thread is incredibly disappointing to me.

 

 

To me as well. I see nothing wrong with a state homeschool record keeping system, unaffiliated with the public schools, where diplomas and transcripts are kept on file and where homeschool graduates could get impartial confirmation of their education. There are definitely cases where it is needed.

 

I am saddened that people have rejected and demeaned homeschoolers who are sharing their stories which belong to them. We, the "nonexistent" homeschooling community, cannot just ignore them because they don't support our desire to homeschool free from any encumbrances.

[La Texican]

Nobody has demeaned them for telling their stories. I have criticized that their call for policy, regulation, and legislation that is only half thought out, yet they jump up and down insisting that such regulation won't change a thing for good homeschoolers. That's absolutely not true here because Texas has no regulations. What they're describing would drastically change the legal structure of homeschooling here. I've pointed out several ways they can't make that claim even if their plan was fully fleshed out (which it's not- yet they're so quick to make guarantees): how will their ideas be implemented, and by whom, and what changes will they tack on for convince that might just affect good homeschoolers? (And yet they give guarantees on every page, like they can say for sure). They have yet to show how any of this will make any significant positive difference. What paperwork are they fighting for? Social Security number and birth certificates (if you have one) are available upon request from the office. There was one drastic story about a kid born off the grid who can't get a passport because there's no proof he was born, but they're really arguing against cruel parents holding those papers hostage as leverage. They already can't. It's available at the issuing office.

This is not demeaning them for sharing their stories. This is debating the point of laws and regulations they want to change. That's what citizens of a democracy are supposed to do if somebody is trying to change the laws. Yes the government has the right to step in "to provide for the general welfare". Their arguements don't convince me this is the case, though obviously they are convinced that it is. They think these laws would protect innocent children. I think their ideas came from the heart, but were not well thought out so I do not think they will much of a difference for those children as this group thinks they will. This group thinks regulation will not affect good homeschoolers. I think regulation involves groups that this group can not speak for, so they have no right to make these promises.

[cathmom]

Nobody has demeaned them for telling their stories. I have criticized that their call for policy, regulation, and legislation that is only half thought out, yet they jump up and down insisting that such regulation won't change a thing for good homeschoolers. That's absolutely not true here because Texas has no regulations. What they're describing would drastically change the legal structure of homeschooling here. I've pointed out several ways they can't make that claim even if their plan was fully fleshed out (which it's not- yet they're so quick to make guarantees): how will their ideas be implemented, and by whom, and what changes will they tack on for convince that might just affect good homeschoolers? (And yet they give guarantees on every page, like they can say for sure). They have yet to show how any of this will make any significant positive difference. What paperwork are they fighting for? Social Security number and birth certificates (if you have one) are available upon request from the office. There was one drastic story about a kid born off the grid who can't get a passport because there's no proof he was born, but they're really arguing against cruel parents holding those papers hostage as leverage. They already can't. It's available at the issuing office.

This is not demeaning them for sharing their stories. This is debating the point of laws and regulations they want to change. That's what citizens of a democracy are supposed to do if somebody is trying to change the laws. Yes the government has the right to step in "to provide for the general welfare". Their arguements don't convince me this is the case, though obviously they are convinced that it is. They think these laws would protect innocent children. I think their ideas came from the heart, but were not well thought out so I do not think they will much of a difference for those children as this group thinks they will. This group thinks regulation will not affect good homeschoolers. I think regulation involves groups that this group can not speak for, so they have no right to make these promises.

One poster called them spoiled brats. That's demeaning.

[Crimson Wife]

One poster called them spoiled brats. That's demeaning.

I don't think they are spoiled brats. I do think they are bitter, but I'd be bitter as well if I were a survivor of abuse and/or neglect as part of a cult-like church/movement. I totally understand why they are angry and they have my deep sympathy.

 

I don't think their experience represents more than a tiny fraction of HSers, and I also don't think increased government intrusion into HSing is the solution.

[La Texican]

That was walking iris, who admitted she had only read one page before she posted it. On that page a couple of succesful grad students were complaining about their awful homeschooled childhoods and calling for laws about it. A couple of posts later she said she had stood corrected, read a few more of the stories, then explained and retracted her first statement. That hardly constitutes a bunch of people demeaning people just for telling their own stories.

[La Texican]

Dialectica, that's awful. I support stiffer penalties for violent offenders. I think that would cut down on a lot of the crap.

[snowbeltmom]

ETA: In my case, the perp was not violent. He used psychological manipulation. "Your mother depends on the money I give her, and I will go away if you tell." What he said was true, and I didn't want to be responsible for that.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :crying:

 

[Pen]

I've not read the pages and pages of posts, but when I linked to the article in the first post in this thread, it looked like the woman "Lauren" believed that her and Jennifer's mother was caused to become abusive, fundamentalist and mentally askew because she started homeschooling her children? That the daughter seems to think the mother was "well" and "normal" and not abusive prior to homeschooling? I was having trouble making sense of that. I read it aloud to my ds who asked what I was reading, and he thought that it did not make sense either. The kids could have been going to public school, and the mother could have gone for fundamentalism, and hit the children with a belt when they came home, limited their dating and friends, insisted they eat meat rather than be vegan, etc.  

 

As a homeschooling parent, I feel offended by the idea that starting homeschooling would cause one to become abusive or anything else that article implies. It does not make sense to me. Anyone???

[Pen]

Also, would "Lauren" have been better served by being left in the public school where she was not learning to read? Would that have helped her to, apparently, later go to college and law school? Would it have been a way to definitely keep her family in better shape? It does not appear to me that the problems complained of would have been such as to lead to child services being called and the girls being removed from the home, but would that have been better?

 

Bad as the situation seems to have been, it does not seem to me that more regulation of homeschooling, or elimination, would in any way have helped all that. Am I missing something?

 

My state has required testing and some other safeguards to make sure that children who are homeschooled are not completely failing to have basic reading and math skills at least. I think that is probably well and good (though a bit of a pain to have to do it, and I wish along with it we had access to being able to do the testing at our local public schools using the same tests, computers, rules, as the local public schoolers do)--but I do not see how it would help a situation like "Lauren" and "Jennifer's" at all.

[La Texican]

I said at the begining of this thread, and it might be different where you live, there is no statute of limitations for reporting child abuse. It's emotionally a lot harder and it would involve confronting and destroying lives of people the victim actually knows, including friends and family of the abused. The person I know who had that happen would be despised and called a liar by her own family for pressing charges, and would never do it. But I think that people in this group who want to stop abuse would do a lot more good at stopping abuse if they press charges now on their childhood abusers. If it becomes widespread that adults pursue pressing charges on their childhood abusers that will reduce those abusers from reoffending and send a strong message to society. That addresses actual abuse more directly than passing regulation, oversight, and trying to screen for potential abuse. It would be emotionally and socially very hard on the victim, but the legal process is already available right now.

[ColleenInWis]

I said at the begining of this thread, and it might be different where you live, there is no statute of limitations for reporting child abuse. It's emotionally a lot harder and it would involve confronting and destroying lives of people the victim actually knows, including friends and family of the abused. The person I know who had that happen would be despised and called a liar by her own family for pressing charges, and would never do it. But I think that people in this group who want to stop abuse would do a lot more good at stopping abuse if they press charges now on their childhood abusers. If it becomes widespread that adults pursue pressing charges on their childhood abusers that will reduce those abusers from reoffending and send a strong message to society. That addresses actual abuse more directly than passing regulation, oversight, and trying to screen for potential abuse. It would be emotionally and socially very hard on the victim, but the legal process is already available right now.

 

Ideas like this should be suggested to the CRHE group, perhaps on comments for one of their blog articles.  You could be right about this--I have no idea what they'd say about this--nothing I've read has come close to this idea.  

[ColleenInWis]

As a homeschooling parent, I feel offended by the idea that starting homeschooling would cause one to become abusive or anything else that article implies. It does not make sense to me. Anyone???

 

From the article:  "It hadn’t started that way. Her parents began homeschooling Lauren when she struggled to learn to read in the first grade. They were Christians, but not devout. Soon, though, the choice to homeschool morphed into rigid fundamentalism. The sisters were forbidden to wear clothes that might “shame†their father or brothers. Disobedience wasn’t just bad behavior but a sin against God. Both parents spanked the children with a belt. Her mother, Jennifer says, hit her for small things, like dawdling while trying on clothes."

 

She doesn't really explain this fully.  Could we read between the lines that the family came into contact with other homeschool families who had these strict standards, and the mother's unhealthy desire to control plus the pressure to be like the other families led to the abuse?  

[La Texican]

Lol, you've told me a couple of times to go tell them on their blog. I'm trying to work out for myself in this thread what benefits this group offers, and what unintended consequences they're not considering. I see others trying to too. They overlook lots of obvious stuff. Like, they complain that homeschool data doesn't show the abuse cases so we can't compare homeschool abuse numbers to public school abuse cases. Police and social workers have that data. I've seen that some in this group are grad students. Surely they can find a way to get this data from the police and social workers.

[snowbeltmom]

From the article:  "It hadn’t started that way. Her parents began homeschooling Lauren when she struggled to learn to read in the first grade. They were Christians, but not devout. Soon, though, the choice to homeschool morphed into rigid fundamentalism. The sisters were forbidden to wear clothes that might “shame†their father or brothers. Disobedience wasn’t just bad behavior but a sin against God. Both parents spanked the children with a belt. Her mother, Jennifer says, hit her for small things, like dawdling while trying on clothes."

 

She doesn't really explain this fully.  Could we read between the lines that the family came into contact with other homeschool families who had these strict standards, and the mother's unhealthy desire to control plus the pressure to be like the other families led to the abuse?  

 

But this really doesn't have anything to do with homeschooling, does it?  It seems like these families were following a religion.  I still don't see how the regulations that this group has proposed would prevent any of the abuse they endured.  If the parents spanked the children with a belt hard enough to leave marks, there are already laws on the books to address this issue. 

 

[Pen]

From the article:  "It hadn’t started that way. Her parents began homeschooling Lauren when she struggled to learn to read in the first grade. They were Christians, but not devout. Soon, though, the choice to homeschool morphed into rigid fundamentalism. The sisters were forbidden to wear clothes that might “shame†their father or brothers. Disobedience wasn’t just bad behavior but a sin against God. Both parents spanked the children with a belt. Her mother, Jennifer says, hit her for small things, like dawdling while trying on clothes."

 

She doesn't really explain this fully.  Could we read between the lines that the family came into contact with other homeschool families who had these strict standards, and the mother's unhealthy desire to control plus the pressure to be like the other families led to the abuse?  

 

Sure, we could read between the lines that way. But the implication seems to be that people who choose to homeschool for whatever reasons, are soon going to morph into rigid fundamentalists and possibly child abusers. 

 

Is that common? 

 

I know people who are homeschooling for fundamentalist or other similar religious reasons--but they had those religious ideas before they started homeschooling, homeschooling did not cause it. And just because they are homeschooling for such religious reasons or even have a spare the rod and spoil the child attitude, perhaps, does not mean that I find that attractive and want to join in.

 

If someone were not inclined to going in that direction, I would think they would not be likely to do it just because they met other homeschool families who were that way. So though it seemed like the causative factor to the child, maybe the parents' emotional or mental or religious states were already primed for that, primed to seek out and gravitate to a fundamentalist group of other homeschoolers rather than seeking out a secular group or a less fundamentalist and rigid religious group, or to stay friends with the public schoolers they had known.

 

If the problem was that there was no social group in that area for the parent outside the fundamentalist homeschoolers we are reading in between the lines, then maybe what is needed is for public schools to maintain a much more open and welcoming environment for homeschoolers who want to participate in it or parts of it, to do so.

 

One thing this does make me reconsider is that I've told my son when playing with friends where we know the family are Creationists, not to mention things like evolution (not that it is likely to come up anyway) so as not to offend the parents or expose the children to things the parents do not want them to know about, but after reading the woes of Lauren, I think perhaps to let more be mentioned so that the other children get to learn about other ways of thinking about things would be okay. And yet, OTOH, when it comes to things like not wanting my son exposed to more violence than I think he is ready for at his age, or not smoking around him, or that sort of thing, I would prefer that other families keep that in mind with him. So then it seems like I should keep in mind not letting their children be exposed to ideas about evolution, or an earth that is much older than 5000 years and so on.

[cathmom]

To speculate further, I do believe there is an answer. The answer is a proactive society in which people care for and about each other. 

 

In the case of abuse and neglect in homeschooling families, aren't the things the CRHE described illegal already? If more government intervention isn't going to stop that from happening, what might help is concerned relatives, neighbors, and friends notifying authorities. In other words, creating a society in which people do not turn a blind eye to abuse. In this case, procedures would have to be in place to ensure that it is very hard to falsely accuse someone of abuse and have that result in interventions that are not warranted.

 

 

No, I don't think the things they are talking about are illegal. maybe some are.  In the state I live in, I could homeschool my children and no one ever see my children. Sure I have to give them a standardized test, but I can administer it. I could order a CAT test from Seton, fill in the blanks as though my child were taking it and send it back and no one would ever know. I could totally not educate them and the government allows that!

 

Sexual abuse is illegal and could be prosecuted. ditto for physical abuse.

 

At least at a public school, someone sees the child regularly that could notice if they were being abused.

 

Is it illegal to withhold someone's paperwork from them? No. To refuse to assist them with financial aid info so they can go to college? If so, many divorced fathers would be charged. To not give someone an education when you said you would? Not to my knowledge.

 

It seems to me that responses on this thread have been dismissive - "I can't see where that's really a problem. Do parents really do that?" etc.

 

Yes, they do. I know a homeschooled girl who was stuck in limbo because her mom stopped doing anything educational with her in high school. She had no transcript, didn't really graduate, wasn't educated to do anything except run a household. She had no driver's license, no documents to get one. She had to get a GED and has had to live with relatives. She is completely unprepared to care for herself and bravely risked her parents' wrath to leave them, but is struggling.  I mean, I guess that is just life, right?

 

How could one go from homeschooling for educational reasons to being sucked into a fundamentalist lifestyle? I'll answer that. We began homeschooling after being dissatisfied with public school. Right around then the Internet became more important. I joined a Catholic moms group and some were homeschooling. After a miscarriage I asked for help dealing with things and was directed to Managers of their Homes by Steve and Teri Maxwell. It made sense, some parts helped me. I joined their board. I became involved with fundamentalist moms. I read fundamentalist books. Etc. I never went as far they did -  I distinctly remember the points at which I said, "They are crazy!"

 

There's a strong feeling within the homeschooling movement that we don't need anybody else. When I had non-verbal 3yo twins, I had people telling me (probably on this very board) that all I needed was some homeschooling speech therapy program that I don't remember the name of and I could do the therapy myself. I could do Barton myself with my dyslexic daughter. and on and on and on. Move out to the country so you can be self-sufficient! Garden! Grow all your own food! Can it! Raise livestock! Live off the grid! Don't participate in that evil society! Your children don't need friends - they can be each other's best friend through homeschooling! And God forbid, DON'T put your children in public school! And that's not just fundamentalists - Seton has a book called Catholic Homeschooling that pretty much says that putting Catholic children in public school is a sin.

 

Oh, and do all this while you continue to have baby after baby. I'm sure it will all be fine. Because there are no negatives to homeschooling! nothing to see here, folks, move along. Don't you know homeschoolers are always superior to publicly schooled children?

[Crimson Wife]

It seems to me that responses on this thread have been dismissive - "I can't see where that's really a problem. Do parents really do that?" etc.

Is it a problem? Unfortunately, yes.

 

Is it a widespread problem affecting a large percentage of HS children today? Or is it a problem particular to a tiny subset of HS families who are involved in cult-like churches/movements?

[ColleenInWis]

Lol, you've told me a couple of times to go tell them on their blog. I'm trying to work out for myself in this thread what benefits this group offers, and what unintended consequences they're not considering. I see others trying to too. They overlook lots of obvious stuff. Like, they complain that homeschool data doesn't show the abuse cases so we can't compare homeschool abuse numbers to public school abuse cases. Police and social workers have that data. I've seen that some in this group are grad students. Surely they can find a way to get this data from the police and social workers.

 

Aren't they saying that we don't have data about how many home-educated students are abused/neglected?  Sorry if I'm misunderstanding...  but police and social workers don't have that data.  

 

I think as the CRHE works together, they will grow and change.  I've already seen changes to their website every time I go there.  And they will learn what flies and what doesn't...  They are young.  They want to set the world on fire... burn brighter than the sun.  :)