El... Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 or I'm not going to be ready to teach it. The problem Bill posted recently about the diamond and silver rings took me three days to figure out. Luckily, my kids are 6 and 2! I got through Saxon Algebra 2 in high school at home, and took a few easy math courses in college in which I did fine. (I did fine because the teachers worked all the last day's homework on the board, and the problems on the test were all on the homework, so since I did the homework I knew what to expect on the test. Not even the numbers were changed between homework and test. State school, y'all. Sad, I know.) However, I feel like I missed a lot of the "why" and would comprehend more now than I did as a teen. I'm thinking about buying AOPS Pre-Algebra and starting there, working through it in the evenings. Does that sound like a good idea to those who have used it? What else would I need to buy, besides the text book? Should I get the solutions manual, in case I get really stuck? Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 If you could not do that problem (I'm assuming it was the 4th grade math problem he posted? I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to what it actually said) and Saxon alg 2 is your highest level of math, no, I do not think AoPS pre-alg is the place to start. I would work through MEP (it's free) or purchase something that you actually plan on using with your kids and order several yrs worth and work through ahead all of the elementary level books before you start with a pre-alg course b/c IMHO it is going to be harder to teach kids fractions, decimals, and percentages than pre-alg b/c those skills are going to hit first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckymama Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Definitely get the solutions manual. It will serve as insurance even if you never need to open it :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Although this is old, I believe it would be worth the search on the used book market. Precalculus Mathematics: a programmed text by Vernon E. Howes. A revised version is called Essentials of Mathematics: Precalculus: a programmed text (by Vernon E. Howes) I bought the three-volume set (the older edition) when I was in high school for personal enjoyment, and have not yet seen a better book for the self-learner. The series started with beginning algebra, then functions and relations, finally to analytic geometry. (I don't remember whether trigonometry was included.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewe Mama Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I have already purchased my choices for math through high school. My eldest is 10. I am working my way through pre-algebra and plan to complete two texts per year so I know what lies ahead for my dc. My math grades steadily decreased throughout high school, not because of lack of effort on my part, but because my brain was simply not developed enough for it to make sense at that time. I am actually looking forward to learning it on my own now that I can actually comprehend abstract concepts in higher mathematics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I would start at the very beginning, not with prealgebra. That is what will help build confidence and competence to teach the kind of problem posted. I see you are using Singapore. I highly recommend Elementary Mathematics for Teachers. http://www.singaporemath.com/Elementary_Mathematics_for_Teachers_p/emft.htm. Working through math ahead of my kids was probably the smartest thing I ever did as a homeschooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El... Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Thank you! I'll look into the others you recommended. I guess I'm thinking of AOPS because when I read the sample pages on Amazon, I feel like, "Aha! Wow! I get that now! Where have I been?" I want the why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I have already purchased my choices for math through high school. My eldest is 10. I am working my way through pre-algebra and plan to complete two texts per year so I know what lies ahead for my dc. My math grades steadily decreased throughout high school, not because of lack of effort on my part, but because my brain was simply not developed enough for it to make sense at that time. I am actually looking forward to learning it on my own now that I can actually comprehend abstract concepts in higher mathematics. You are fortunate if you can do this! I had hoped to do this, but it did not pan out. My children varied so much in learning styles, math ability, and all of the elements of learning that I used different programs, depending upon which child it was, and which math topic it was. It has been worth it to me for each child to understand the math. At the same time, though, I know that not every family wishes to be so student-specific (nor may be financially able to do so). And, of course, there is the inescapable fact that in an outside school, no such adjustment will be made to find and use a math textbook well-suited to an individual student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Thank you! I'll look into the others you recommended. I guess I'm thinking of AOPS because when I read the sample pages on Amazon, I feel like, "Aha! Wow! I get that now! Where have I been?" I want the why. I understand that but unless you are completely firm on all elementary math concepts, you will probably not get as much out of it as you would if you were solid on the conceptual applications of elementary concepts. MEP teaches conceptually. There are other elementary math programs that teach conceptually. I just think that someone who has only had Saxon alg 2 probably should back up further in order to successfully teach elementary concepts conceptually to students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Thank you! I'll look into the others you recommended. I guess I'm thinking of AOPS because when I read the sample pages on Amazon, I feel like, "Aha! Wow! I get that now! Where have I been?" I want the why. Well, definitely do AoPS, but for the future teacher you, or just for your own satisfaction and enjoyment. I have been doing AoPS ahead of my oldest as well. But the question posted was very typical of what you will see in 4th grade SM, and tricky questions up the same alley start even earlier. So while you will have tons of "aha moments" working through higher math, starting at the beginning to learn the whys and hows of SM will make you a better teacher so your kids can have those "aha moments" from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatHomeschoolDad Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I like Saxon Algebra, but NOT without the answer book! They also put out a DVD that is step-by-step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 For those who missed it the question was if 2 gold rings and 4 silver rings together are worth $1440, and 1 gold ring and 1 silver ring together are worth $660, then what is a sliver ring worth? Not a difficult question if you know bar-diagrams or basic algebra reasonably well, mind-boggling if you don't. To Elroisees, I like both the Zaccaro book Wendy...I mean Roy...I mean Sparkly Unicorn recommended, Real World Algebra (as well as Primary Grade Challenge Math by Zaccaro as a lead-in) and the AoPS Prealgebra book. Zaccaro has a real gift as a teacher for making "complex' topics seem really simple. His explanations and "builds" are really clear. Where AoPS has a way of making "simple" things "complex." That is they really delve in deep to the mathematical underpinnings of concepts. Both are great. The other thing is to choose math programs where you can re-learn with your children. For me Miquon (with the Teacher's materials, which to be are reminiscent of AoPS in elementary school form) is an amazing way to start. And Primary Mathematics (Singapore) and/or MEP make great complements. With Beast Academy an option down the line. All these make re-learning math fun for both (motivated) parents and children. If you can get ahold of Liping Ma's book, I would read that too. There is no reason you can't re-visit both how to teach basic math and more advanced topics. Having a road-map of where you want to go seems like a good idea to me. That has been my strategy. Best wishes! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 For those who missed it the question was if 2 gold rings and 4 silver rings together are worth $1440, and 1 gold ring and 1 silver ring together are worth $660, then what is a sliver ring worth? Not a difficult question if you know bar-diagrams or basic algebra reasonably well, mind-boggling if you don't. That is precisely my point. If someone had even rudimentary alg skills, that problem shouldn't have taken more than a minute to solve. It should NOT be mind-boggling to anyone who has had alg 2 and remembers anything. 2R + 4S =1440 1R +1S= 660, S=660-R and simply solve by substitution. A 4th grader doing HOE could have easily solved it that way even w/o using bar diagrams. Someone that took days to solve that problem is probably not ready for AoPS pre-alg. Just my thoughts. Most of you that are recommending it have taught your kids lower levels of math and have reviewed all those basic concepts. Her oldest is 6. She hasn't taught elementary math and there are probably a lot of concepts she should review before pre-alg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I really appreciate the attitude of the OP and the desire to learn with your kids. I appreciate the "raising independent learners" focus that's often on the boards here, I really do, but I get really tired of reading queries like"how can I get my 2nd grader to do all his work independently". As homeschoolers we are teachers. We're supposed to be here to teach our kids. The independence many parents expect here would result in summarily firing many teachers in a B&M school. For my kids, we use Horizon from K through 6th (every problem, every day). I really, really like Horizon - but others like "their" math. I think a lot is in execution. I check every problem. I grade everything. We talk math as a family. We enjoy it. I encourage my kids to use real math - not just answer their questions and solve things for them (like, "Mom, what's this cost if it's 40% off?") We figure those out together at the store. We talk about the fiscal issues mentioned on the radio when we hear them. For middle school math we use Saxon with the Art Reed dvds. I do them with my student nearly every day. We follow the amended MFW problem lists. We both have a notebook, though often we'll work dueling whiteboards. If there's a question I answer it. Right there. We solve some problems "like" the one in question. We alter things a little. If we're both stumped - we use Khan or Google. If your kid is down the hall (and this is NOT you - just the "independent" push) you never have that conversation. I don't think this is helping or hand holding. It's teaching. It's working together. I would highly recommend that whatever curriculum you use - work through it with your student. It's actually pretty fun! I think of it like my daily Sudoku. :-) So, and this is like throwing gasoline on a fire, I don't buy into the "you must you conceptual math for a solid thinking math student" line. We tried them young, and we all hated them. I would recommend you maybe think about math itself differently, and really dig into what you already have and do it alongside your kids. Enjoy it. Really. You have an amazing attitude and you are going to rock this! FWIW, it took my traditional Saxon Algebra 1 kid (1/4 way through the book) about a minute to solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 That is precisely my point. If someone had even rudimentary alg skills, that problem shouldn't have taken more than a minute to solve. It should NOT be mind-boggling to anyone who has had alg 2 and remembers anything. 2R + 4S =1440 1R +1S= 660, S=660-R and simply solve by substitution. A 4th grader doing HOE could have easily solved it that way even w/o using bar diagrams. Someone that took days to solve that problem is probably not ready for AoPS pre-alg. Just my thoughts. Most of you that are recommending it have taught your kids lower levels of math and have reviewed all those basic concepts. Her oldest is 6. She hasn't taught elementary math and there are probably a lot of concepts she should review before pre-alg. People tend to forget skills they haven't used in a long time, especially if they were learned on a "procedural" basis (rather than being well understood conceptually). But a motivated adult can have things come back pretty quickly (especially when the concepts are well explained). I think AoPS Prealgebra does that very well. I don't see why someone can't take parallel paths and revisit both elementary math and pre-alebra at the same time. AoPS isn't that challenging. "Wordy?" Yes. But not that hard. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Well, definitely do AoPS, but for the future teacher you, or just for your own satisfaction and enjoyment. I have been doing AoPS ahead of my oldest as well. But the question posted was very typical of what you will see in 4th grade SM, and tricky questions up the same alley start even earlier. So while you will have tons of "aha moments" working through higher math, starting at the beginning to learn the whys and hows of SM will make you a better teacher so your kids can have those "aha moments" from the start. We are almost done with SM 4A (text- and work-book) and I have not seen this problem type before. Perhaps it is in 4B or the IP and CWP books (we do those in the middle of A and B ). We also (both DS and I) suck at these problems. DS was able to construct the equation to solve this but with a ton of help/hints (so we did not use graphs). Kind of a bummer day (thanks, Bill :)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Would someone who solved this using graphs care to post the solution for me? DS and I did it exactly as above with the expressing of D in terms of S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Okay, let me try with the bars: Draw six bars & label like this: GSGSSS = 1440 where G=gold ring, S=silver ring You know GS = 660. (Draw one G + one S bar & that is = 660.) So, you can replace GS with 660 & GS with 660. You have SS left and only 120 of the original 1440 length. (1440-(660+660)) So, two Silver rings are worth 120. Obviously one is worth $60. I'm not a Singapore mom, so it might not be exactly like they would do it. But that's how I solved it with a picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Would someone who solved this using graphs care to post the solution for me? DS and I did it exactly as above with the expressing of D in terms of S. "if 2 gold rings and 4 silver rings together are worth $1440, and 1 gold ring and 1 silver ring together are worth $660, then what is a sliver ring worth?" I did the question in a lazy way. I treat the 1 gold ring and 1 silver ring as a set. So two sets would be 2 gold rings and 2 silver rings That means the $1440 - 2($660) would be the cost of two silver rings 2 silver rings cost $120 so one silver ring cost $60. |----------1 gold ring & 1 silver ring-------------||----------1 gold ring & 1 silver ring-------------||-------1 silver ring-----||----1 silver ring-----| |----------------------------$660---------------------||-----------------------$660---------------------------||-------1 silver ring-----||----1 silver ring-----| |------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------$1,440----------------------------------------------------------------------| Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El... Posted November 8, 2013 Author Share Posted November 8, 2013 This forum is fantastic! You've recommended several options I hadn't considered. I think I'll do a refresher on the elementary material, which hopefully won't take me too long, and then re-start algebra. My math grades steadily decreased throughout high school, not because of lack of effort on my part, but because my brain was simply not developed enough for it to make sense at that time. I am actually looking forward to learning it on my own now that I can actually comprehend abstract concepts in higher mathematics. I think (and hope) this is also true for me! Thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trilliums Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Khanacademy.org Free online videos and practice (Learn---->Knowledge Map). I'd start at the beginning (1 digit addition under Knowledge map) and work up to algebra. It doesn't take too long and would be a great refresher. One of my kids did this when he hit algebra and had gaps. It was easier to keep track of it all by starting at the very beginning. Then I'd get the AoPS Prealgebra. I had so many AHA! moments reading through that book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stars Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 "if 2 gold rings and 4 silver rings together are worth $1440, and 1 gold ring and 1 silver ring together are worth $660, then what is a sliver ring worth?" I did the question in a lazy way. I treat the 1 gold ring and 1 silver ring as a set. So two sets would be 2 gold rings and 2 silver rings That means the $1440 - 2($660) would be the cost of two silver rings 2 silver rings cost $120 so one silver ring cost $60. |----------1 gold ring & 1 silver ring-------------||----------1 gold ring & 1 silver ring-------------||-------1 silver ring-----||----1 silver ring-----| |----------------------------$660---------------------||-----------------------$660---------------------------||-------1 silver ring-----||----1 silver ring-----| |------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------$1,440----------------------------------------------------------------------| This is how I did this problem, too. And I don't know that I would have gotten it at all if somebody hadn't posted a clue about the gold and silver ring being a unit. When I figured it out I was absurdly proud of myself (for solving a 4th grade math problem!)...until I realized I would still have gotten the problem wrong on a test because I hadn't the faintest memory of how to write it in equation form. I'd like to think I'll be able to truly learn this stuff while I'm tackling it with my kids, but their education is too important for me to bungle with subpar math skills. I have informed DH, who has no such mathematical afflictions, that he will have to take over the teaching of math at about Pre-Algebra. If that doesn't work out, I'll join the OP in summer school! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I enjoy remediating my own math education, but for all the effort I have spent remediating, I don't think that my students are that much better students because of it.. The new new math, Waldorf math, living math, conceptual math and all the "better" maths can be a black hole in sucking up your attention, time and money. The "better" maths are not the ONLY way to teach math. First you have a whole LIFE and then a whole EDUCATION, before you teach the single subject of MATH. Math needs to be kept in context of the whole. It's important to not let it develop a life of it's own. It can become a parasite that kills the host. Charles McMurry (my new favorite author) says we only need enough math to leaven the REST of our education. You don't need more yeast than you have dough to rise. When I want to study a "better" type of math, I start with the first level, whether that is pre-school or primary school level. Each method/author has their own vocabulary and over-complications that must be learned and sometimes dare I say survived. All these "better" maths don't necessarily mean a better COMPLETE education, and seldom a better LIFE. If you ENJOY studying elementary math theory, than go for it! If not, you are not a bad teacher/mom if you stick to mostly more familiar and traditional methods, and throw in some books and games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strange_girl Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Great topic! I myself have posted the same question before, and with the same feelings as OP. I'll join the summer school crowd...though I can't figure out what I'm going to use! I definitely see the reasoning in going back and reviewing elementary math, though. I've forgotten so much of it it's not even funny. Pathetic, but not funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I would do one of 2 things. Either get Life of Fred, which you can then put on the shelf for your kids whenyou're done, or work my way through Khan Academy, which is free. I still have a standing promise to myself to work through LOF:Statistics. I strongly expect I'll grok the subject better with Fred than I did when I took it in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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