What do you do when someone close to you is adulterous

[Catwoman]

Ha ha make that a woman not a woodman.

Am I the only one who liked it better when it was a woodman? :D

[Harriet Vane]

Man. I don't know. I have a jumble of thoughts here with the two opposing viewpoints and I'm about to leave for class.

 

First, I agree with Scarlet and Harriett Vane that cheating in a marriage speaks to a person's character. Fine - if SIL is an ax murderer or a pig's snout, I can see how that would drive someone to leave, but repeated, intentional cheating speaks to a person's character. That DOES affect how I feel about being close to someone. If I found out you embezzed from your company, my opinion of you as a trustworthy friend would also be affected. I cannot sit there and say, "Well,  it's not my company they stole from, so it's none of my business...." No. It shows the person will continually sneak and deceive. If you will do that to someone else, you will deceive/sneak/lie in your relationship with me, too. 

 

Second, I'm not "cutting ties" with anyone. That's absurd. But I'm not going to smile and nod while he posts junk on FB about going here, there and everywhere with this other chick. It revolts me. 

 

Third, not bringing it up around my parents, yet not keeping it quiet creates a lot of grey area. I already know this. Suppose I knew mom was planningg to send a birthday gift to SIL? Should I just say nothing if her address has changed? Say, "Oh, her address is changed," with no explanation why it's changed? It's too weird. I'm planning to tell them. This much I have decided, though I'm going to talk to DB first and see what is "his side" of the story. 

 

I'd like to explore this more, but I'm outta time. Bye all. 

 

Good for you. I agree.

 

Please just keep in mind that the cheater has powerful incentive to rewrite history to justify his bad behavior. Take "his side" with a grain of salt.

 

[Scarlett]

Good for you. I agree.

 

Please just keep in mind that the cheater has powerful incentive to rewrite history to justify his bad behavior. Take "his side" with a grain of salt.

 

Yes. I have heard every sort of story, excuse as to why a person was compelled to commit adultery.

[Guest]

Good for you. I agree.

 

Please just keep in mind that the cheater has powerful incentive to rewrite history to justify his bad behavior. Take "his side" with a grain of salt.

 

Yeah, I hear ya. 

 

There are already numerous things in SIL's telling that ring true in some of the details about how this went down. It would be hard for me to become convinced that his is not the culpable party. 

[Harriet Vane]

Yeah, I hear ya. 

 

There are already numerous things in SIL's telling that ring true in some of the details about how this went down. It would be hard for me to become convinced that his is not the culpable party. 

 

:grouphug:

[Catwoman]

There are already numerous things in SIL's telling that ring true in some of the details about how this went down. It would be hard for me to become convinced that his is not the culpable party.

Personally, I don't think your SIL should be involving you in the details of her problems with your brother.

[Trish]

Let me put it to you this way. I consider adultery to be morally wrong, and destructive to a wide pool of people---not just the married couple. The two people involved in adultery should not be allowed to cover up that morally wrong behavior. People have the right to know what they are dealing with. I wouldn't like it if someone hid from me that a new girlfriend/ boyfriend was a thief either.

I agree on adultery being morally wrong. It is destructive to more than just the married couple, often children are involved as well. That also holds true if the marriage breaks up no matter the reason.

 

As far as people having a right to know what they are dealing with, I guess the quickest way to announce the adultery far and wide would be a Facebook post.

 

Same if you happen to know if someone is an income tax cheat, I guess.

 

I'm just wondering if the purpose is reforming the person (i.e. the "social shame" will somehow cause them to change their minds)?, or punishment of the person for violating your (but maybe not their) moral code?

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative because believe me deep down I'd love to run around punishing people doing bad things too. I just don't think I have that right. I'm just wondering what the goal is.

[Scarlett]

Personally, I don't think your SIL should be involving you in the details of her problems with your brother.

 

 

Who better really.  SIL knows Quill loves her brother and to me that is the most reasonable person to talk to .  Better than SILs own mom who likely would have no empathy or sympathy for her cheating SIL.

[Scarlett]

I agree on adultery being morally wrong. It is destructive to more than just the married couple, often children are involved as well. That also holds true if the marriage breaks up no matter the reason.

 

As far as people having a right to know what they are dealing with, I guess the quickest way to announce the adultery far and wide would be a Facebook post.

 

Same if you happen to know if someone is an income tax cheat, I guess.

 

I'm just wondering if the purpose is reforming the person (i.e. the "social shame" will somehow cause them to change their minds)?, or punishment of the person for violating your (but maybe not their) moral code?

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative because believe me deep down I'd love to run around punishing people doing bad things too. I just don't think I have that right. I'm just wondering what the goal is.

 

 

The goal is to be open and honest.  I would not post it on FB nor would I inform every soul I run into...but people closely involved have the right to know...for big reasons and small reasons. 

 

I don't do secrets though.  I don't live two lives and I don't want to be involved with people who do.  And if someone close to me is living a double life I want to know it so I can distance myself from them.  That is quite different than using discretion about mistakes we and our loved ones have made.  I don't blab all my family and friend's mistakes (except those who have a direct right to know)....but that is different than deliberate ongoing two timing lying cheating.

[albeto.]

That is part of why this is difficult for me. My family is and has always been secretive and I don't know what my role is.

I'm not sure I understand why you're taking a role with regard to your parents. If they choose to not get involved, why is it your burden to get them involved?

 

 

Part of me feels it's his bed, let him lie in it, but part of me knows he will not tell the whole situation. He will want to still look good by my parents. I can't imagine any scenario where he would own the specific reason he is leaving her, even if he goes as far as to say he is leaving her. 

I don't understand this either. He's a grown man. Why are you trying to punish him by telling on him? Why not let him and your parents choose the relationship they will have, and you choose the relationship you will have with your brother?

 

I also think that it makes a difference that theirs was a Christian wedding. The witnesses to the wedding are *supposed* to be holding the couple in some accountability. They're (we're) not supposed to shrug our shoulders and say it's none of our business.

How far are you willing to take your Christian duty? Will you shun your brother until he confesses to the church community? Will you take him before the elders of the church since he has offended you in some way and refuses to make amends with you privately? Will you pray over this and let the holy spirit do the changing of hearts? I mean, how far are you willing to go, and will you take into consideration his beliefs?

 

[Χά�ων]

That is part of why this is difficult for me. My family is and has always been secretive and I don't know what my role is. Part of me feels it's his bed, let him lie in it, but part of me knows he will not tell the whole situation. He will want to still look good by my parents. I can't imagine any scenario where he would own the specific reason he is leaving her, even if he goes as far as to say he is leaving her. 

 

I also think that it makes a difference that theirs was a Christian wedding. The witnesses to the wedding are *supposed* to be holding the couple in some accountability. They're (we're) not supposed to shrug our shoulders and say it's none of our business.

 

ETA: I can't believe I committed a "their" faux pas! ;)

Their Vows.

Their Wedding.

Their Relationship.

Their Marriage.

Their Business.

 

 

Unless you were the 3rd wheel or the marriage counselor nothing involves you. I am blow away that you are so determined to be involved and wondering how much of the story you should be gossiping about to others. It does matter who you are telling, it is still gossip. Not family news, gossip.

 

My advice to you. Listen to you SIL and be there to support her. Do not judge her. Do not judge your brother. Do not gossip. If SIL wants your parents to know her side, encourage her to call or write them a letter.

 

If you do anything else you will risk serious permanent damage to your relationship with your brother and family. Frankly, if you came to me to tell me about a situation like this, not matter my relationship to you and that person I would no longer trust you.

[SwallowTail]

I don't know the right thing to do.  My BIL was cheating and treating my SIL terribly.  We were really mad at him, and upset for my SIL and for my niece and nephew.  My dh didn't know what to say, so we never said anything at all - we lived far away,and he and my dh were not close really. 

 

BIL ended up committing suicide, leaving a widow, a 4 year old, and an infant. 

 

What I realized in hindisght is that we often don't recognize men's depression, b/c it is expressed most often as acting out.  My dh and I both regret not reaching out to him more and offering him grace and love and empathy.

[Catwoman]

Who better really.  SIL knows Quill loves her brother and to me that is the most reasonable person to talk to.

See, that's exactly why I think SIL is out of line to try to put Quill in the middle of this. Quill shouldn't be put in a position where she feels that she has to take sides against her own brother.

[albeto.]

Man. I don't know. I have a jumble of thoughts here with the two opposing viewpoints and I'm about to leave for class.

 

Want some more thoughts to throw into the fray? You can think of them as Devil's Advocate thoughts, but they're sincere nevertheless.

 

First, I agree with Scarlet and Harriett Vane that cheating in a marriage speaks to a person's character.

 

Everything speaks to a person's character. Getting involved in private business speaks to a person's character. Trying to "encourage" other people to conform to one's personal standards of decency speaks to a person's character.

 

Fine - if SIL is an ax murderer or a pig's snout, I can see how that would drive someone to leave, but repeated, intentional cheating speaks to a person's character. That DOES affect how I feel about being close to someone. If I found out you embezzed from your company, my opinion of you as a trustworthy friend would also be affected. I cannot sit there and say, "Well,  it's not my company they stole from, so it's none of my business...." No. It shows the person will continually sneak and deceive. If you will do that to someone else, you will deceive/sneak/lie in your relationship with me, too.

 

So you don't trust your brother. Are you trying to convince your parents to also not trust him? Will you tell each of his future dates not to trust him? Where does your self-imposed role in this end? I don't mean that in a snarky way, but as a genuine question. Your role in this is self-imposed. You've decided to take this on. I find it curious to think about how far this role goes. And please understand I'm throwing out for consideration, for exploration, not in hopes of getting an answer. I hope you understand that just because it's not a thought that supports your point, it's not meant to be a sarcastic or mean one.

 

Second, I'm not "cutting ties" with anyone. That's absurd. But I'm not going to smile and nod while he posts junk on FB about going here, there and everywhere with this other chick. It revolts me.

 

The feeling of revolt is understood, I think, but what would you do? Comment each time his Facebook status involves time spent with another woman? How many times do you think you can do that before he blocks you from his page and stops including you in his life? You may not be "cutting ties," but would you be creating a good reason for him to do so?

 

Third, not bringing it up around my parents, yet not keeping it quiet creates a lot of grey area. I already know this. Suppose I knew mom was planningg to send a birthday gift to SIL? Should I just say nothing if her address has changed? Say, "Oh, her address is changed," with no explanation why it's changed? It's too weird. I'm planning to tell them. This much I have decided, though I'm going to talk to DB first and see what is "his side" of the story.

 

The post office forwards mail. If you want to tell your parents she's moved and they ask why, why wouldn't you say, "Ask DB"? Or if you tell them your DB and his wife are separating/divorcing and they ask why, tell them to ask him. Tell them you don't want to be in the middle between them and him. Then change the subject and continue having a pleasant visit.

[Little Nyssa]

Quill, I don't know if you can singlehandedly overturn the culture of secrecy in your family... I dunno... it might be that all you can do is make sure that your own family doesn't work that way.

[Catwoman]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I find it pretty distressing that people are willing to judge Quill's brother as being basically a terrible person who should never be trusted again because he cheated on his wife... yet not even Quill has bothered to talk to him and listen to his side of the story.

 

For all we know, the wonderful SIL is a real b*tch on wheels when she's alone with Quill's brother. She might be mean, selfish, nasty, demanding, or even physically abusive, yet appear to the rest of the world to be the perfect wife and friend.

 

Maybe that marriage has been on the rocks for years. Maybe they put on a good show in public, but fight like cats and dogs in private.

 

I have said before that I don't think cheating is ever the answer to marital problems. I think that if a person wants to start dating, they need to get out of their marriage first. But that doesn't always happen, and I am pretty amazed that several people are acting like Quill's brother is ruining the lives of everyone around him and that no one should ever trust him and that he will lie to everyone about everything, and that he could never be a good friend to anyone, for the sole reason that he cheated on his wife.

 

I think that is ridiculous, and I also think it's horribly judgmental. It's as though people are saying that despite the fact that this guy has been a great brother to Quill over the years, and probably a good friend and relative and co-worker to many, many people over the years, it is all somehow all completely negated by the fact that he cheated on his wife.

 

Sorry, but I think that kind of attitude goes way beyond judgmental and well into the realm of condemnation of a man whose side of the story no one knows.

 

And while I still think Quill should keep her nose out of her brother's marriage, if she's going to take the time to listen to and support her SIL, she certainly owes it to her own brother to hear what he has to say. She might be quite surprised at what he tells her.

 

Maybe her brother isn't going to win a Husband of the Year award any time soon, but that doesn't necessarily make him a terrible person in every other area or relationship in his life.

[Erin]

And while I still think Quill should keep her nose out of her brother's marriage,

What if he was beating his wife?  Would this still be the advice?  

How about if he were just telling her how worthless or stupid she was?

[Guest]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I find it pretty distressing that people are willing to judge Quill's brother as being basically a terrible person who should never be trusted again because he cheated on his wife... yet not even Quill has bothered to talk to him and listen to his side of the story.

 

For all we know, the wonderful SIL is a real b*tch on wheels when she's alone with Quill's brother. She might be mean, selfish, nasty, demanding, or even physically abusive, yet appear to the rest of the world to be the perfect wife and friend.

 

Maybe that marriage has been on the rocks for years. Maybe they put on a good show in public, but fight like cats and dogs in private.

 

I have said before that I don't think cheating is ever the answer to marital problems. I think that if a person wants to start dating, they need to get out of their marriage first. But that doesn't always happen, and I am pretty amazed that several people are acting like Quill's brother is ruining the lives of everyone around him and that no one should ever trust him and that he will lie to everyone about everything, and that he could never be a good friend to anyone, for the sole reason that he cheated on his wife.

 

I think that is ridiculous, and I also think it's horribly judgmental. It's as though people are saying that despite the fact that this guy has been a great brother to Quill over the years, and probably a good friend and relative and co-worker to many, many people over the years, it is all somehow all completely negated by the fact that he cheated on his wife.

 

Sorry, but I think that kind of attitude goes way beyond judgmental and well into the realm of condemnation of a man whose side of the story no one knows.

 

And while I still think Quill should keep her nose out of her brother's marriage, if she's going to take the time to listen to and support her SIL, she certainly owes it to her own brother to hear what he has to say. She might be quite surprised at what he tells her.

 

Maybe her brother isn't going to win a Husband of the Year award any time soon, but that doesn't necessarily make him a terrible person in every other area or relationship in his life.

 

Couple of things, here. First, SIL didn't involve me any further than I asked to be. I contacted her, after I first had been talking to him and he told me he left. She didn't tell me about the reason until he actually filed papers and told her things that indicate he has not the most remote intention of salvaging the marriage. He hasn't told me this part yet; only that he had left and that the problem was "probably [his] fault." I don't view this as being dragged in the middle at all. This is what you do with friends you care about: you talk to them when they are devastated. 

 

I realize that so far, I only have her side of the story about the adultary. And I agree - maybe she's not how she appears and she's dreadful to live with. Could be - I live 2,500 miles away, so how would I know? But there are several elements of what she told me that have the ring of truth. That's all I can say without detailing the entire conversation. The things she told me, unless they are bare-faced lies, indicate that his character has devolved. 

 

DB has also dumped other friends that would be telling him not to do this. He won't return their calls or texts. The cheating hurts many people, not just the wife. I have to assume that if he does not like the way I handle the info, he will most probably do the same to me. 

[Χά�ων]

DP

[Χά�ων]

DP

[Guest]

 

Everything speaks to a person's character. Getting involved in private business speaks to a person's character. Trying to "encourage" other people to conform to one's personal standards of decency speaks to a person's character.

 

Albeto, sorry I don't have time to address all your questions, but I want to speak to this. I'm not trying to "encourage" other people to conform to MY personal standards of decency. When they got married, these were his standards of decency. That is the point of vows held in a Christian ceremony where marriage is viewed as a sacrament, not merely a living arrangement or a legal definition. They both entered the marriage on the same page about where they would fulfill sexual desires and he has not kept up his end of the bargain. Society does have all sorts of general standards of decency that all people who are not deranged or anti-social uphold in a social contract. It is not wrong that we have such things. It is how we get along as social (rather than solitary) creatures. 

 

 

[Χά�ων]

What if he was beating his wife? Would this still be the advice?

How about if he were just telling her how worthless or stupid she was?

But he is not beating her. He is not verbally abusing her.

 

If quill wtinessed her DB beating SIL I would tell her to call 911. There are laws against such behavior.

 

If quill witnessed him verbally abusing SIL I would encourage quill to support SIL as she gained enough confidence leave an abusive situation. I might even be willing to find DV shelters nar her for her.

 

But that isn't happening. Cheating is not illegal and none of her business.

[Χά�ων]

Albeto, sorry I don't have time to address all your questions, but I want to speak to this. I'm not trying to "encourage" other people to conform to MY personal standards of decency. When they got married, these were his standards of decency. That is the point of vows held in a Christian ceremony where marriage is viewed as a sacrament, not merely a living arrangement or a legal definition. They both entered the marriage on the same page about where they would fulfill sexual desires and he has not kept up his end of the bargain. Society does have all sorts of general standards of decency that all people who are not deranged or anti-social uphold in a social contract. It is not wrong that we have such things. It is how we get along as social (rather than solitary) creatures. 

What if his views and beliefs have changed? And if his vows were that they would have an open marriage and attend a monthly orgy and he suddenly decided that was no longer his views. Would you still hold him to that?

[Catwoman]

What if he was beating his wife? Would this still be the advice?

How about if he were just telling her how worthless or stupid she was?

We have no evidence to suggest that he has done anything of the kind.

 

We also have no evidence to suggest that she wasn't beating her husband or telling him how worthless and stupid he was.

 

All we have is Quill's SIL's side of the story, and let's face it, she's not exactly capable of being completely objective right now, so even if she's trying to be honest about everything that happened, her viewpoint is definitely going to be biased in her own favor.

[Guest]

 

 

So you don't trust your brother. Are you trying to convince your parents to also not trust him? Will you tell each of his future dates not to trust him? Where does your self-imposed role in this end? I don't mean that in a snarky way, but as a genuine question. Your role in this is self-imposed. You've decided to take this on. I find it curious to think about how far this role goes. And please understand I'm throwing out for consideration, for exploration, not in hopes of getting an answer. I hope you understand that just because it's not a thought that supports your point, it's not meant to be a sarcastic or mean one.

 

Clearly that is absurd. I don't care what my parents do with the information. I just think there should not be all the sneaking and secrecy if his choice is made and he will have a new person in his life. I wouldn't tell his new gf what she should think of him, but I don't have any interest in meeting her, either. 

 

You know, what I don't get is why some feel that one doesn't have a discussion with their friends about the troubling things going on in their lives.  If I were in these shoes, if my husband was filing for divorce and was playing house with somebody new, I would certainly hope that a few of the people I call my good friends would be amenable to hearing my pain. God, no wonder people need psychotherapists, if you're not allowed to cry to your girlfriends! 

[Catwoman]

DB has also dumped other friends that would be telling him not to do this. He won't return their calls or texts. The cheating hurts many people, not just the wife. I have to assume that if he does not like the way I handle the info, he will most probably do the same to me.

I truly don't mean to be rude about this, but if his other friends are as judgmental toward him as you seem to be, I can't exactly blame him for wanting to avoid their lectures on how he should live his life. The breakup of the marriage is your brother and SIL's business, not anyone else's.

 

Honestly, Quill, I can't understand why you feel so betrayed by this. Not only do you live 2,500 miles away from your brother, so it's not like he's over at your house four nights a week, but this isn't even about you at all. It sounds like he has never been anything but a great brother to you, but you're willing to throw him under the bus because he left his wife. That just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Why are you feeling so personally betrayed by this? You weren't wronged in any way.

[Guest]

What if his views and beliefs have changed? And if his vows were that they would have an open marriage and attend a monthly orgy and he suddenly decided that was no longer his views. Would you still hold him to that?

 

I don't doubt that his beliefs have changed. If his vows had been such, I would not have stood up for them at their "wedding" to begin with. If his life was that dark, we would not even be in communication and I would probably have no idea what he was doing. 

 

My beliefs about many things have changed in the 19 years since I took my vows, but not the one about "forsaking all others." if my beliefs about that changed, the only decent thing to do would be to leave dh and release him from his vows to me, since I'm not planning to hold to the vows I made to him. But this would not be *after* I've found a suitable replacement on the sly. 

[mirth]

DB has also dumped other friends that would be telling him not to do this. He won't return their calls or texts. The cheating hurts many people, not just the wife. I have to assume that if he does not like the way I handle the info, he will most probably do the same to me. 

What if there are out of wedlock children conceived, or diseases contracted, or angry husbands, or significant marital wealth expended to maintain the adultery as a result?  Your SIL may not even be clear on how many people he's committed adultery with.  I'm trying to say, what if the s-storm has only just begun?

 

He sure doesn't seem to care how his friends are handling the info.  I think it is reasonable to say, right now he might only care about how his lawyer handles things.

[Guest]

I truly don't mean to be rude about this, but if his other friends are as judgmental toward him as you seem to be, I can't exactly blame him for wanting to avoid their lectures on how he should live his life. The breakup of the marriage is your brother and SIL's business, not anyone else's.

 

Honestly, Quill, I can't understand why you feel so betrayed by this. Not only do you live 2,500 miles away from your brother, so it's not like he's over at your house four nights a week, but this isn't even about you at all. It sounds like he has never been anything but a great brother to you, but you're willing to throw him under the bus because he left his wife. That just doesn't make any sense to me at all. Why are you feeling so personally betrayed by this? You weren't wronged in any way.

 

Really, Cat? 

[albeto.]

Albeto, sorry I don't have time to address all your questions, but I want to speak to this. I'm not trying to "encourage" other people to conform to MY personal standards of decency. When they got married, these were his standards of decency. That is the point of vows held in a Christian ceremony where marriage is viewed as a sacrament, not merely a living arrangement or a legal definition. They both entered the marriage on the same page about where they would fulfill sexual desires and he has not kept up his end of the bargain. Society does have all sorts of general standards of decency that all people who are not deranged or anti-social uphold in a social contract. It is not wrong that we have such things. It is how we get along as social (rather than solitary) creatures. 

 

I'm not suggesting it's wrong to uphold standards of decency, I'm just wondering how you propose to influence your standards onto him. I say "your standards" because your brother has different standards, clearly. For whatever reason, he's changed his mind. Likely you'll never know all these reasons. Likely many of them could have been addressed in mutually respectable ways. Nevertheless, the standards are not yours to officiate. Your comments, like not keeping quiet on facebook, and telling your parents, suggest an intent to sway him to behave differently. If not, are you doing this for yourself? I wonder because sometimes we do things to appease our consciences, but really that's another way  to say we're appeasing our sense of anxiety. If you're feeling helpless or frustrated about all this (and I can't imagine you wouldn't - you seem really close to both your brother and his soon-to-be-ex, and your sympathy seems to indicate genuine pain on your part), then maybe this is about you feeling less pain yourself. But, if doing that caused more pain to them without the benefit of helping, would you choose a different way to respond?

[Χά�ων]

I don't doubt that his beliefs have changed. If his vows had been such, I would not have stood up for them at their "wedding" to begin with. If his life was that dark, we would not even be in communication and I would probably have no idea what he was doing. 

 

My beliefs about many things have changed in the 19 years since I took my vows, but not the one about "forsaking all others." if my beliefs about that changed, the only decent thing to do would be to leave dh and release him from his vows to me, since I'm not planning to hold to the vows I made to him. But this would not be *after* I've found a suitable replacement on the sly. 

But see, you view your vows as greatly important and something to be taken seriously. That is wonderful. From what I am reading here, and I readily acknowledge that I do not know everything, it seems that your brother doesn't seem to share your dedication.  That is probably where the comments are coming from when they say it is not the best thing to try and have other conform to your standards.

 

 

I am saying this gently, and I hope that comes across as such. I can feel that you are in pain and I am not meaning to be harsh.

[Catwoman]

Really, Cat?

Yes, really.

 

I do sympathize with you because I know you care about your SIL, and I know you love your brother, and you want their marriage to work out and for both of them to be happy.

 

The thing is, you can't control that. And you don't know that your brother hasn't been absolutely miserable in the marriage for a long time. I'm just saying that you're letting yourself get too emotionally involved with something that isn't for you to decide, and that isn't anything you can control.

 

Your marriage is your business, no one else's, and no one can tell you how to live your life. It's the same thing with your brother. His marriage -- his business.

 

You may not agree with his actions or his decision to end his marriage, but I don't see why you would feel betrayed, because your brother hasn't done a single thing to hurt you. He's still the same brother he has always been, and I'm sure he would still be there for you if you needed him. His relationship with his wife is entirely separate from his relationship with you.

 

I guess I'm just not sure why you seem to think he's a different person than he used to be, and I think a lot of people here have been way too quick to judge his entire character.

[2squared]

This entire discussion is completely interesting and distressing at the same time.  All I keep thinking about is that Jesus brought sinners to him. When all others shunned them and pushed them away, Jesus sat among them. 

 

 

[Guest]

But see, you view your vows as greatly important and something to be taken seriously. That is wonderful. From what I am reading here, and I readily acknowledge that I do not know everything, it seems that your brother doesn't seem to share your dedication.  That is probably where the comments are coming from when they say it is not the best thing to try and have other conform to your standards.

 

 

I am saying this gently, and I hope that comes across as such. I can feel that you are in pain and I am not meaning to be harsh.

 

But they were his standards! When he got married, they WERE his standards. Obviously, he doesn't share my sense of duty NOW, because he is straying, so...obviously. They WERE  HIS standards when he got married. That is my point. They aren't some high standards I made up for myself. They were in accordance with traditional Christian marital standards. Obviously he had changed his mind, or bought a new belief system or whatever. But the marriage did not start out that way. 

[Erin]

We have no evidence to suggest that he has done anything of the kind.

 

We also have no evidence to suggest that she wasn't beating her husband or telling him how worthless and stupid he was.

 

All we have is Quill's SIL's side of the story, and let's face it, she's not exactly capable of being completely objective right now, so even if she's trying to be honest about everything that happened, her viewpoint is definitely going to be biased in her own favor.

 

My point is nothing more than to question at what point one should be involved in someone's marriage and what point they shouldn't. 

 

As it is, a cheater is destroying another person, their marriage and their family.  

Apparently that's OK, but actual physical abuse is not.  

 

 

I'm not seeing the line, I guess.  

[albeto.]

Clearly that is absurd. I don't care what my parents do with the information. I just think there should not be all the sneaking and secrecy if his choice is made and he will have a new person in his life. I wouldn't tell his new gf what she should think of him, but I don't have any interest in meeting her, either.

 

It's not absurd. I would agree with you that there shouldn't be sneaking and secrecy, but you've pointed out that in your family, people don't want to be involved. What I don't understand is, if your parents don't want to be involved, why take it upon yourself to involve them? Does that make sense?

 

You know, what I don't get is why some feel that one doesn't have a discussion with their friends about the troubling things going on in their lives.  If I were in these shoes, if my husband was filing for divorce and was playing house with somebody new, I would certainly hope that a few of the people I call my good friends would be amenable to hearing my pain. God, no wonder people need psychotherapists, if you're not allowed to cry to your girlfriends!

 

I'm not sure I understand. You're venting here, and that makes perfect sense to me, but you're also asking for advice. 

[Catwoman]

My point is nothing more than to question at what point one should be involved in someone's marriage and what point they shouldn't.

 

As it is, a cheater is destroying another person, their marriage and their family.

Apparently that's OK, but actual physical abuse is not.

 

 

I'm not seeing the line, I guess.

Quill's brother left his wife. Their marriage is over. It would have been over when he left, whatever his reasons and whether or not he'd cheated on her.

 

The end of Quill's brother's marriage most certainly didn't destroy the rest of the family. A couple broke up. Life goes on. Quill has not been personally betrayed here, nor has anyone but the SIL.

[Χά�ων]

My point is nothing more than to question at what point one should be involved in someone's marriage and what point they shouldn't. 

 

As it is, a cheater is destroying another person, their marriage and their family.  

Apparently that's OK, but actual physical abuse is not.  

 

 

I'm not seeing the line, I guess.  

The cheatee has not been the victim of assault. Nothing illegal has happened.

 

Do I wish her a peaceful journey as she heals? Yes.

Is she emotionally hurt? Probably.

Does she need immediate life saving intervention for herself? No.

[Χά�ων]

But they were his standards! When he got married, they WERE his standards. Obviously, he doesn't share my sense of duty NOW, because he is straying, so...obviously. They WERE  HIS standards when he got married. That is my point. They aren't some high standards I made up for myself. They were in accordance with traditional Christian marital standards. Obviously he had changed his mind, or bought a new belief system or whatever. But the marriage did not start out that way. 

Right. Were. Past tense. Or maybe he never held those standards in his heart, but only on the surface in an attempt to do what is right. I am not him, so I cannot say for sure.

 

Right now, he is in a different place. Sometimes, that is ok. Life is a bumpy road and a learning processes. Who knows, maybe he needs to do this to be a better person in 5 years. Time will tell. Accept him where he is now. It is ok that he is not where is was, really it is.

[Guest]

Okay. I think this is where I need to thank those who've been helpful and stop feeding those who haven't been. Pretty surprised it's Cat, though. I like Cat.

 

 

[Χά�ων]

Quill, are you upset that your DB no longer holds values that you feel are important? I am gathering that you are very hurt and possibly feel betrayed. That is ok. I imagine this has been a huge shock to you. It's ok to have strong feelings about what has happened. It is normal to be shocked. But really, it is just between them. And that is ok too.

 

:grouphug:

[texasmama]

But they were his standards! When he got married, they WERE his standards. Obviously, he doesn't share my sense of duty NOW, because he is straying, so...obviously. They WERE  HIS standards when he got married. That is my point. They aren't some high standards I made up for myself. They were in accordance with traditional Christian marital standards. Obviously he had changed his mind, or bought a new belief system or whatever. But the marriage did not start out that way. 

Or made a terrible mistake and didn't know how to recover.  Or married someone with whom he is miserable and then compounded the issue by straying with an affair.  Or has a secret substance abuse problem. 

 

There are many reasons why people have an affair besides changing their belief systems. 

 

I have a wonderful, life-long friend who had an affair and left her marriage.  They had two young kids.  She is now remarried to the man with whom she cheated.  They have been together for over 15 years now.  She never changed her belief system.  She suffered greatly, in addition to the suffering she caused others.  I did not agree with her decision, but I did not "pile on" to her pain by giving her feedback about what a terrible mistake she was making and how much she was breaking her vows and betraying everyone involved.  She had enough to deal with.  She knew what my thoughts and feelings were, but this was not about my thoughts and feelings.  Never once did I think, "Wow, she cheated on her husband.  She is a person who can never be trusted again."  The broad brush with which some on this thread are painting the OP's brother is really surprising to me.

 

OP, your brother may be an SOB who cavalierly cheated and then left.  He may deserve the Jerk of the Year award.  I don't know.  From 2500 miles away, you can't really know.  I understand your shock, horror and disgust.  But truly, your brother did not betray you.  This is not personal.  He is flawed, obviously, as we all are, and he has displayed himself as such. 

 

By all means, support the injured party.  It is not your responsibility to inform other family members.  They will find out or not on their own time.  That is not your responsibility.

 

I am shocked at the judgment displayed in this thread.  Someone upthread stated that he should only be forgiven if he is repentant or something similar.  Pray tell, how is anyone to evaluate his repentance?  And is that our responsibility?  I will stay far away from putting myself in a position to evaluate whether or not someone else is "repentant" and "deserving of forgiveness".  Gee whiz. 

[Harriet Vane]

Quill--You are a Christian, and your brother claimed (still claims?) those beliefs. Therefore you know that within the bounds of your shared faith, yes, you must speak with love about his bad choices. Others posting on this thread do not claim to adhere to that belief system, so they will not necessarily understand that loving interdependence. It is not likely to affect his behavior, and you cannot become enmeshed in an ongoing battle to manipulate him to change. Your posts do not indicate any desire to do that though--your posts are well-grounded in common sense, and I support you.

 

For those who claim he has not harmed anyone but Quill or changed, or that I (or others) sit in judgment on Quill's brother:

 

If he did this and repented, then it would not be my place to hold any judgment. I know more than one person who has done this and genuinely repented, and I have never, ever held this against these people. Their repentance was genuine, and each of these people worked hard over literally years to make amends.

 

Db, however, not only did this but has indicated no repentance at all. I don't care if his wife was a witch or not. You don't sleep with someone else unless you are legally divorced. Period.

 

I have known cheaters. My personal experience with more than one cheater (not my own dh, but I have known others, known them well) is that they are dishonest in many ways, at many times, and that they are remarkably self-serving. They are also mean to their wives and the people who are closest to them in an effort to protect the cheating relationship.

 

This is the reality of cheating. It is a series of decisions that does change a person, that does make them less trustworthy. He betrayed his wife, yes, but he has shown himself to be unworthy of real trust in so doing without repentance.

[albeto.]

Okay. I think this is where I need to thank those who've been helpful and stop feeding those who haven't been. Pretty surprised it's Cat, though. I like Cat.

 

The other day I came across an article that explained how human brains are hardwired for empathy:

 

 

The researchers found, as they expected, that regions of the brain responsible for threat response -- the anterior insula, putamen and supramarginal gyrus -- became active under threat of shock to the self. In the case of threat of shock to a stranger, the brain in those regions displayed little activity. However when the threat of shock was to a friend, the brain activity of the participant became essentially identical to the activity displayed under threat to the self.

 

I will admit to thinking about this while reading your predicament. I get the impression that you're responding to this pain in a very real, genuine, and substantial way. To say it's painful for you is not an allegory, but a statement of (what I think is) fact. I can completely understand and sympathize with this. Really. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, and if that's the case, please recognize this as a genuine offer of help and support, misguided as it may be: I think you might be trying to make your own pain heal faster by doing that which you think is "the right thing to do." I think that will only backfire because this will only make you feel better. I think it will only serve to push your brother away from you, and I think that would create future pain you probably want to avoid. 

 

I don't think you should condone or congratulate your brother, I don't think you should shun your dear friend. I just think you should process this yourself, with your friends unrelated to family, and let them work things out in their own way.

[nmoira]

Why is the woodman involved in your son's marriage?

 

 

I can attest that it's not my naked woodman. He's still recovering from a party last weekend and hasn't strayed far from home.

[Catwoman]

Okay. I think this is where I need to thank those who've been helpful and stop feeding those who haven't been. Pretty surprised it's Cat, though. I like Cat.

I like you, too, Quill -- and that's why I'm trying to help you realize that your brother is still your brother, no matter what happened between him and his wife. I'm sure he still loves you as much as he ever did, and he might really welcome a phone call from you so he can tell you his side of the story.

 

As for his vows, maybe he was never as strong in his Christian beliefs as you are -- or maybe he's losing sleep at night, worried that he will be punished for breaking those vows, but still not being willing to go back to an unhappy marriage or to leave his new relationship. Who knows? Ultimately, it's between him and God, so please try your best not to judge him too harshly, at least until you've spoken with him.

 

I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. It truly wasn't my intention. But I do think you should try to come to terms with the idea that your brother is a not universally bad person because he cheated on his wife, and that the end of his marriage does not have to signal a change in his relationship with you.

[unsinkable]

I can attest that it's not my naked woodman. He's still recovering from a party last weekend and hasn't strayed far from home.

Wow, i kept reading this as woodsman and couldn't figure out how Thoreau got invovled.

[Scarlett]

Okay. I think this is where I need to thank those who've been helpful and stop feeding those who haven't been. Pretty surprised it's Cat, though. I like Cat.

Wow, it did take a turn.

 

Just wanted to add a few things. Telling your parents isn't an effort to punish your brother or manipulate them. It is an attempt to stop keeping secrets. I am shocked how man people thinki it is wrong to tell your parents. Just the facts: brother left his wife, has a girlfriend and has filed for divorce.

 

Expressing your disappointment in his adultery is hardly 'throwing him under the bus'. This is not a either or situation. You can be disappointed and still love him.

[Scarlett]

I like you, too, Quill -- and that's why I'm trying to help you realize that your brother is still your brother, no matter what happened between him and his wife. I'm sure he still loves you as much as he ever did, and he might really welcome a phone call from you so he can tell you his side of the story.

 

As for his vows, maybe he was never as strong in his Christian beliefs as you are -- or maybe he's losing sleep at night, worried that he will be punished for breaking those vows, but still not being willing to go back to an unhappy marriage or to leave his new relationship. Who knows? Ultimately, it's between him and God, so please try your best not to judge him too harshly, at least until you've spoken with him.

 

I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. It truly wasn't my intention. But I do think you should try to come to terms with the idea that your brother is a not universally bad person because he cheated on his wife, and that the end of his marriage does not have to signal a change in his relationship with you.

Cat you said there is no excuse for adultery. But you keep saying maybe he has a good reason......that is the whole point....there IS no reason good enough.

 

And I don't see that Quill is saying her db is a lost cause....but this is no small thing and should not be treated like he failed to pick up his socks or something.

[livetoread]

It is difficult when you think you know someone well and it turns out maybe they are different from that. Divorce can rock a family. I know when both of my siblings divorced, I felt very unsettled for awhile. Even though I consider my marriage to be pretty strong, there is nothing like the reality of a close-up divorce to make you question things. After all, if people whom you thought you knew could be so different, maybe that's true for your life too. On one level I knew dh and I were solid, but at a deeper level, who really knows? Good people are causing pain to people they used to love right in front of your eyes. It's deeply unsettling.

 

Not to mention, it challenged some of my preconceived notions about why people cheat and/or leave. In the end I had to conclude that it's really, really complicated. Your brother sounds like an otherwise good person. I'm sorry for everyone involved.