Christian vs. Secular university: Your thoughts?

[profmom]

I went to a secular university, and I know that not all Christian universities are Christian in practice.  Is Christian vs. secular a consideration for you and your kids?  What are your thoughts on the importance?

[Cricket]

My kids are still younger and my oldest (9th) has no desire to attend college yet (maybe a community college). If one of my kids want to attend a four-year school, Christian v. secular will definitely be a consideration. I went to a conservative Christian college my freshman year but transferred to a college run by Benedictine nuns. May as well have been a secular school. Even some monks who taught classes scoffed at those who believed the Bible was God's word (and I'm talking more than just the creation story). The social life was what it would have been at a secular school, I'm sure, but I didn't live on campus.

 

I know many kids raised in Christian homes who have gone off to college and returned atheists. I think many churches do a terrible job of grounding people in the faith and many professors are radically anti-Christian and even anti-theist. We are making sure our kids are getting good theological instruction, not just telling them Bible stories, and making sure they understand, not just telling them that this is what they have to believe. We're already praying for our kids in this area. We're building solid relationships with our kids. It makes me sad to see kids I care about coming home and mocking their parents for their beliefs.

 

So, yes, it will be a consideration. But, like you say, some of the Christian colleges aren't much better, especially socially.

[mommymilkies]

I went to a secular university, and I know that not all Christian universities are Christian in practice.  Is Christian vs. secular a consideration for you and your kids?  What are your thoughts on the importance?

Yes, it will be a consideration.  There are a couple Catholic universities I would consider, like my favorite, Xavier.  Otherwise, they will attend a secular college.

[profmom]

I've read some reviews of a couple of Christian colleges.  One was Baylor, and the reviews from students made it clear that it wasn't really a Christian environment (which confirms what I've heard too).  On the other hand, the reviews of ORU were different.  The negative reviews were complaints about things like not being able to find parties, other students' not understanding that student's choice to be sexually active, etc.  I know that there are always going to be a range of values in the students, and some colleges market themselves (and maybe wish to be by the leadership) as Christian to entice parents.  I'm wishing for a Christian college because those years are so important!

 

If you know of colleges that claim to be Christian that are really secular, please list them!

[FaithManor]

A couple of things:

 

One is that Christian Uni's, most of the more evangelical or conservative ones, are usually not Tier 1. One notable exception is Wheaton in Illinois. So, since our kids are STEM oriented and have to look at the reputation of the programs they are going to as well as the scientific facilities, that's a huge ding against Christian colleges. It is difficult for the evangelical or protestant schools to come up with the funding to put together the level of science departments our kids need. We aren't Catholic, so schools like Notre Dame are not necessarily attractive to our kids.

 

The second consideration is related to discipleship and money - If I've discipled my kids properly, they shouldn't need a Christian campus in order to lead a Christian life...hopefully, by 18 they are assured of their convictions. If not, having been an adjunct at a Mennonite College and my sister, nephew, and two nieces all graduates of a conservative, evangelical institution who report the same observation, the students are adults and make the choice...those not assured of their beliefs, do what they want even on the conservative campus. They don't remain "Christian" because they were sent to a Christian school. Free will comes into play here.

 

So, then the question becomes "At a price tag in excess usually of $34,000.00 and upwards of $50,000.00 for a regional university, is the money worth it?" For us, the answer is no. DD, at one point when considering nursing, thought about Cedarville. She applied and was accepted getting 70% in tuition scholarships, but nothing for room, board, or the many excessive fees. Her bill was going to be double the secular university where though she did not have a full ride, she could still attend without student loans. At Cedarville, she would have had a student loan every year, we would have paid out from her 529, and we still might have had to take out parent loans to keep her there. Merit aid, by the way, has dropped even more at that school with a bill that exceeds $30,000.00 per year!  But, yet the question was, "Why go into that kind of debt? She's a strong Christian. She'll land on any secular campus, get a degree, have a great college experience, and find like minded people to hang out with while doing it and that's exactly what happened."

 

For what eldest Ds wants to go into, the few Christian schools with good programs in that department, are over $36,000.00 per year and not particularly generous with merit aid. My niece, a graduate of one of these schools, a high scorer on the ACT and SAT with tons of letters of recommendations and was in the top 5% of applicants the year she applied, has a $75,000.00 debt between her and her parents...for a teacher education degree! She makes $26,000.00 per year as a preschool director.

 

Ds can attend MTU or U of M for FAR less than that. For the middle ds, there is only ONE Christian university that is nationally recognized for his program. It's still a regional, though close to bumping into tier 1 status, but right around $40,000.00 per year and their best scholarship is $10,000.00, there may be some smaller ones that he qualifies for, but added together it still comes up to a whomping bill and the average student loan debt for their students is well above the national average which hovers at $13,000.00 - if memory serves, it was something like $32,000.00 or more. He is likely to have decent merit aid at MTU, U of M, MSU, U of Wisconsin, and U of MN, on much lower bills to begin with. For the youngest, well, aeronautical engineering and physics. There isn't a Christian University he can attend for that combo and go work for NASA or one of it's AIA companies. He has go to a tier 1 engineering school.

 

So, we've always tried to live what we believe at home, wearing our hearts on our sleeves so to speak, and hopefully instilling in them a love for Jesus that will transcend the influence of a secular campus. The reality is that without that, they still won't magically be people of faith just because we went into debt to send them to the Christian U. It just doesn't work like that.

 

Now, if they really wanted a Christian U because of other elements, and there are certainly reasons for that...some just simply want that smaller school feel, lots of Bible classes, worship services on campus instead off, etc. then if they could get enough merit aid AND the school offered their program and had a good reputation for it, then they would have our whole hearted support and whatever monies have been earmarked for their educations. But, given their interests, we don't see that happening.

 

Creekland has a son that just graduated from Covenant College, so hopefully she will weigh in on this as I think her perspective would be very valuable since her middle son is at a private, secular university so she sees both sides of the issue on a personal level.

 

Faith

[FaithManor]

I've read some reviews of a couple of Christian colleges.  One was Baylor, and the reviews from students made it clear that it wasn't really a Christian environment (which confirms what I've heard too).  On the other hand, the reviews of ORU were different.  The negative reviews were complaints about things like not being able to find parties, other students' not understanding that student's choice to be sexually active, etc.  I know that there are always going to be a range of values in the students, and some colleges market themselves (and maybe wish to be by the leadership) as Christian to entice parents.  I'm wishing for a Christian college because those years are so important!

 

If you know of colleges that claim to be Christian that are really secular, please list them!

 

Hmmm...that depends on what you mean. The reality is that on any campus, the students are adults and many will lead a life that is not in keeping with any statement of faith. Whether or not they get caught and whether or not those infractions are severe enough to get kicked out is dicey. So, except for the ones that keep a very, very tight rein on the students such that they really do not lead adult lives where they police themselves and make adult choices, Pensacola Christian and Kentucky Mountain Bible College come to mind here...not trying to disparage anyone who has attended, just saying that they choose to tightly control the adults on their campuses...the campus life is going to be what the students make of it. If your roommates and floor mates all tend to want to lead a conservative lifestyle, and you hang out mostly with those people, then that will be the college experience you have. If not, then it can be radically different. As I said, I taught two semesters at a Mennonite College in which the theology on paper was conservative, the professors were conservative believers, the bulk of the classes were taught from a conservative perspective, the lifestyle statement was conservative, and the administration was conservative, and the students still engaged in plenty of premarital s*x, drinking, partying off campus, swearing, wearing clothes that some would consider quite immodest - obviously not to class, but definitely on their own time - etc. They went to their minimum number of required chapels, but for every student who believed what was preached, there was one that was biding his or her time on campus because that is where mummy and daddy wanted him to go, not because he believed it! It would be very difficult for me to characterize that year there. I taught more unbelievers in the music department as a TA than believers.

 

If you mean professors, or the worldview taught in the classes, then that's a different question. Some schools will be fairly successful during their hiring process at maintaining a faculty and staff that promotes whatever the worldview of the sponsoring denomination is. Some will not.

 

I can tell you from first hand experience that the introduction to biology professor who also taught anatomy and physiology as well as genetics at Goshen College in the late 80's was a closet atheist who was teaching, in order to kind of remain under the radar, theistic evolution. This would be against the worldview of the Mennonite Church. But, he had tenure and wasn't going anywhere anytime soon. One of the music history profs was Moravian with some eclectic views that did not jive with the school's worldview either, and another set of profs in the music department were Zen Buddhists and fairly open about it.

 

Spring Arbor University, here in Michigan, is a Free Methodist institution. They do require students to sign a lifestyle statement. Some of those kids live up to it, many don't. Occasionally someone gets tossed to the curb. But, mostly the students don't squeal on one another so things can be uhmmmm lively at the off campus parties and in the dorms. The full time faculty are generally evangelicals and fairly conservative. The Bible classes are taught by conservatives. However, a number of gen-ed and electives are now taught by adjuncts who teach at multiple institutions and come from a variety of worldviews including atheists, as well as a couple of Buddhists and one Moslem professor. One recent psychology student recently reported to me that the "human s*xuality" class was WOW secular in approach.

 

What makes a campus Christian for you the parent is a huge question. If the answer is a specific worldview of the administration and faculty of the school, you may find that provided you check out the hiring practices of the college or uni and find out how this kind of teaching is enforced or NOT in the classroom, you may be pleased. If it is the climate on campus, there really aren't any guarantees unless one does embrace an institution where much of the choice about lifestyle and belief has been taken away from the student body and in which there is some hope that the vast majority of the students on campus WANT to be there for the right reasons and not because of pressure from their church, or because it's the only way they can get their trust fund at 22 (my first college roommate was at my school because her parents held a trust fund over her head....good gravy, she was one.wild.child.!!!!), or whatever. There are some Christian Institutions who do manage to police it enough and weed enough applicants out, and maintain enough oversight in the classroom - Cedarville, Grove City, and Covenant Christian, come to mind as well as the really conservative institutions such as Pensacola - to be largely Christian on campus, but you have to do some pretty invasive checking and interviewing when looking at Christian colleges in order to determine if they truly meet your standards and then you have to figure out, just as you would for a secular campus, if the school and your kid are going to fit well together.

 

Ultimately, no guarantees. I think that most parents, after finally getting their child through the college application process, getting the letters, visiting, making choices, getting the decision made, and dropping said student on campus, need a vacation and some exquisite chocolate!!!! LOL

 

Faith

[Susan C.]

Both dc attend/attended a local state university. It was/is a very good experience. It has been a great introduction to higher level thinking and the real world from our small town homeschool experience.

 

This particular university has a policy that all views are respected, both of students and professors. For example, if you are in government class and the professor is liberal, and the student conservative, they must engage in respectful discussion. I have heard great stories about that class! What a gift to be able to discuss all views.

 

So, I feel the most important thing is that students be allowed to find their way (with gentle prodding and challenging) and given the freedom ask questions and state their views without being negatively labeled. Unfortunately, many Christian universities are worse with this than secular universities....

 

[mommymilkies]

I guess I should specify.  I would choose a Catholic university like Xavier because the academics far exceed those of other Christian colleges I've encountered.  Not because of the religious environment, though we do hold more in common with the mission of the Catholic universities we've encountered.  We are not Catholic, but they tend to accept anyone IME.  I would never pay for an Evangelical school, though. 

[Candid]

 

If you know of colleges that claim to be Christian that are really secular, please list them!

 

One of my favorite writers was Richard John Neuhaus We have subscribed to the journal First Things  for years. His "While We're At It" column was the first thing I read; it was mostly bits of things he'd spot over the month. He was both very smart and wickedly funny. He had a high disdain for RC universities that used the phrase "in the Catholic tradition," or "in the Jesuit tradition," which he considered a warning sign that they were no long either Catholic or Jesuit. I suggest looking for those terms, plus spending some time reading the about pages of any school you consider. Dig down, if there is a "tradition" vs. practice mentality, I suspect you'll find it. 

 

First Things also did an issue where they did an informal review of schools around the country secular and claiming to be Christian to look at academics and atmosphere. Some secular schools have a strong Christian community vs others that don't. http://www.firstthings.com/issue/2010/11/november

 

The other thing to consider is that some private schools have taken big steps to push Christianity off the campus unless it conforms to the campus tone. Public schools can't do this as blatantly, So make sure you do research on that as well. 

[Heathermomster]

My denomination supports Refomed University Fellowship (RUF). A secular tier 1 campus with an RUF minister present and a sound, Bible teaching Church nearby is my preference. I wouldn't mind Dordt or Grove City either though.

[Candid]

As a FYI in terms of sorting out schools, Donna Freitas did a study of secular, Catholic, and Protestant colleges. Her book on the study is: http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Soul-Juggling-Sexuality-Spirituality/dp/B0071UMPI2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373561202&sr=8-1&keywords=sex+and+the+soul

 

As far as I could tell she, herself, is secular in world view. However, she is troubled by s*x**l life on the campus where she teaches. So she undertook the study. She tells the reader that doing a good study was difficult because of access to the students and the schools needed to cooperate. She has criticism for all. She indicates that based on her study Catholic universities are not significantly different than secular ones. Obviously, this is only one factor, but it may speak to an overall culture. 

[Candid]

Finally, reading the second book published by the National Survey of Youth and Religion might be helpful. http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Transition-Religious-Spiritual-Emerging/dp/0195371798/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373561504&sr=1-4

 

But it is pretty darn dry so let me summarize some key findings. 

 

This book is written five years into this ongoing study. They started with 13 -18 year olds and are now resurveying the same people who are 18 - 23. 

 

There finding are clear in terms of what factors do and don't contribute to ongoing faith actions (they measure actions not faith which is not measurable). Children who read the Bible and prayed continue more strongly in their faith than those that didn't. And the number one correlation with ongoing faith was the visible strength of their parent's faith. And that bar was set high. Only the "devoted" had a positive correlation as compared to the next category of parent called "the regular attenders." What that tells me, is you have to go above and beyond in your own faith and keep your children involved in reading the Bible and praying. 

 

Things that don't correlate: youth groups, world view classes, mission trips, camps, etc. 

[FaithManor]

Finally, reading the second book published by the National Survey of Youth and Religion might be helpful. http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Transition-Religious-Spiritual-Emerging/dp/0195371798/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373561504&sr=1-4

 

But it is pretty darn dry so let me summarize some key findings. 

 

This book is written five years into this ongoing study. They started with 13 -18 year olds and are now resurveying the same people who are 18 - 23. 

 

There finding are clear in terms of what factors do and don't contribute to ongoing faith actions (they measure actions not faith which is not measurable). Children who read the Bible and prayed continue more strongly in their faith than those that didn't. And the number one correlation with ongoing faith was the visible strength of their parent's faith. And that bar was set high. Only the "devoted" had a positive correlation as compared to the next category of parent called "the regular attenders." What that tells me, is you have to go above and beyond in your own faith and keep your children involved in reading the Bible and praying. 

 

Things that don't correlate: youth groups, world view classes, mission trips, camps, etc. 

The Barna group also did a pretty decently conducted study and the findings were startling. Christian schools had really no influence on the outcome...students remained in the faith/worldview or not, at the same rates as secular schools and even more to the point, Christian homeschooling only performed MARGINALLY better! The bottom line again had an awful lot to do with how the faith was lived in the home and how real mum, dad, or both made it to day to day living, and the approach to teaching it. If not lived in a loving, forgiving, merciful manner, it didn't do a whole lot of good.

 

I'm just going to throw this out there. It's a matter of opinion, so I can't prove it, but here is why I think we have a problem in this nation with Christian higher education.

 

There are too many schools competing for too few resources, and the qualified professors to teach the classes.

 

Whew...got.that.off.my.chest.

 

There are 22,000 denominations or versions of Christianity out there in the world and it seems that a whole lot of them had to have their own college or multiples thereof! Now, I realize that's an exaggeration, but hear me out. The Free Methodists have Spring Arbor, Roberts Weslyan, Greenville, Azusa Pacific, and Seattle Pacific. The Weslyans have just about that many. So do the Nazarenes and the United Methodists. Don't start me on the Baptists - tons of Baptist schools. Now, the Methodists/Weslyans/Nazarenes disagree on virtually nothing fundamentally. Literally, outside of infant baptism in United Methodist Churches - which should not be a reason that an 18 year old can't sit in on an Old Testament Survey class at university X if they go to a Free Methodist church that only does believer's baptism - there is almost NO difference. Just groups of Christians that at some point in their past, got into it over something that wasn't necessarily theologically significant and broke up. Same with the others, not to pick on any one group. But, generally, these issues were not major, line in the sand, statement of faith issues...usually a matter of practice, rite, administration, or church discipline. Thus, everyone takes an absolute mindboggling amount of ministry money and runs off to start a college. No pooling of resources, all the infrastructure costs, it's staggering.

 

The end result is that there are a bazillion Christian uni's and LAC's, and most can't come up with the funding or resources to rise above regional status, some struggle to get even the most basic of accredidations, and the bills get ever bigger because costs keep going up, same for the public uni, except the Christian school's well for dipping into is FAR more shallow than if fairly like minded denominations had a vision to come together and agree on the big stuff, let the small stuff take care of itself, and pool their resources so that an Arminian/Weslyan or Calvinist or whatever worldview through higher education could be taught across a wider field of academic disciplines, and at an affordable cost to families that valued it.

 

This enormous competition for resources also means that it's pretty darn difficult to keep people in the classroom that share the school's worldview. How many Christians of your denomination or a closely related one do you know that have PH.D's? How many of those PH.D's are inclined to teach? Of that percentage who have the credentials AND the desire, how many are in a financial position to take the lower salary and benefits package offered by the Christian U. and support their family on it, and ESPECIALLY, if that worldview tends to lean towards the stay-at-home-mom ideal so a ONE income family.

 

Take the number of available, qualified individuals for a specific discipline - and believe me when we are talking about physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, computer science, sports medicine, biology, environmental science, botany, ecology, certain foreign languages, etc. generally being very competitive - and divide that by the number that are also of your particular worldview AND willing and able to take the pay cut, and see what's left. This decidedly limited pool of professorship then needs to be divided by 970 because that's the number of religiously affiliated colleges in the U.S.

 

Therefore, how many applicants will college A. have for their biology department when the time comes? Not many and for some, none. Which means they end up accepting someone to fill the slot that doesn't share the board of trustee's or Dean's worldview and you just have to look the other way on it because there isn't anything else to be done unless you want to announce, "We are cutting programming" which is a sure fire way to lose students and money. Thus, much religious diversity and lifestyle variance oft times, within many disciplines on any Christian campus.

 

Generally, the smaller the institution, the easier it is to keep a tight rein...stick with the humanities and common foreign languages, plus religious studies, and it's easier to find qualified applicants. The further you branch into math, science, business, engineering, and technology and BAM, hard pressed to keep everyone on the same page and teaching the philosophy you believe.

 

This all gets mirrored in student body and especially since nearly all Christian schools are loathe to discriminate against students based on denominational affiliation. Maybe if they did discriminate, they'd be able to maintain a campus lifestyle more amenable to their worldview, but that again, takes an already diminished student pool, and further shrinks it, which makes it hard to maintain the institution due to lack of resources and those pesky students. It's a merry-go-round.

 

I think that in this regard had the number of schools remained low and similar denominations banded together to support that limited number, we'd have a small number of Christian uni's to choose from, and those schools would have amazing departments, amazing faculty, and competitive admissions that would include serious character references along with academic competitiveness, and these campuses would mirror more of what many Christian parents would like to see and have available to their kids. On top of which, due to widespread support, the tuition bills would be more in line with public institutions. Think about it, if you could take all of the money poured into higher education for just the Weslyans, Methodists and all versions of Methodism, and Nazarenes alone, and combined it...that's a large well and some very good things could come from it.

 

But, this is where we are at. Nearly 1000 "Christian" colleges and that means big tuition bills, and a struggle to maintain a specific worldview on campus.

 

That said, since it's virtually impossible to get two churches from the same area to decide on a VBS program and share resources, it will be when pigs fly before two denominations would combine college resources in order to strengthen programs, unify campus life, and lower costs much less then have the opportunity to expand programs.

 

Now, you can just flame away or whatever. It won't bother me at all! I did say it was just an opinion, no data to support it.

 

Faith

[Myeightkiddies]

Be certain that whichever college you choose is regionally accredited.  Check their accreditation and make sure that it matches the US DOE's regional accreditation agency list.  If not, I'd advise not attending.  There are many regionally-accredited Christian universities, but there are some that are not.  Even if you love the school and plan for the child to attend there, it still would be wiser to not.

 

 If a college is not accredited (regionally according to USDOE), their degree may not be accepted by employers.  If they need to transfer before obtaining a degree, it is unlikely that the new college (unless they are also not accredited by a regional agency) will accept the credits.  Transfers happen due to sudden change in available funds, student having issues with other students or instructors, etc.  It's better to be safe.  I've seen a few families who have been surprised that the degree and/or credits were not accepted.  The students had to start over, and the families lost a lot of money.

 

Of course this goes for secular universities as well.  Always check their accreditation and be sure it matches the USDOE's approved list.

[creekland]

I'm really with Faith on this one.  Both hubby and I went to large, secular State U and had a fantastic time while getting a great education.  (For us, "fantastic time" and "partying" are not synonyms.)  We wanted the same for all three of our boys.

 

At State U my faith was incredibly challenged - mostly by the religion classes I opted to take to fill my humanities core.  If it hadn't been for my church (near campus), college group at campus, and some extensive self-study, I don't know that I would have kept it.  But I had my church, my college group, and I was willing to do the self study to read the opposing viewpoints on many topics.  (The religion classes NEVER brought up any opposing viewpoints - just their own view as fact.)  In the end, my faith was considerably strengthened and I now feel far more knowledgeable knowing both sides of many controversial points.

 

Outside of faith issues, going to secular U put us in contact with many people we share this planet with, each one with their version of life.  It's a great way to see diversity, share diversity, and find peers (since some share faith very deeply).

 

Then oldest told us he wanted a small Christian C... REALLY?  Not Alma mater???  How could you?????

 

But it's his life, so we remained open minded.  He wanted a truly Christian college on the more conservative side so we/he investigated carefully.  He also wanted to go into Microfinance, so opted to go to the school where a professor specializing in it taught.  The finances worked out (for him, the cost was equal to state Us and less than many other options).  He felt at home on the campus and couldn't wait to get there.  He's enjoyed his experience (graduates next year, not last year) and has seen students get decent job opportunities as seniors.  However, as Faith mentioned, there are those there who definitely don't display a Christian life (not professors as those are screened carefully, but students).  Many started off as "true" Christians, but changed once there.  Others came as "masked" Christians.  Not all change though.

 

Middle son wanted higher level sciences.  What he wanted just isn't offered at Protestant Christian colleges... though he considered some.  He wanted a higher level of research opportunities, so ended up at a small research U (5 times the size of small Christian C).  He's loved it there.  He's found similar minded students and a nice Christian group of college students as well as a church.  His faith has not wavered even though many of his peers do not share it.  He hasn't found anyone openly critical of it.

 

Having seen the two?  I still prefer secular U...  The main drawback I see of Christian C is the sheltering.  While there are students there who aren't living a Christian lifestyle, they all still share a similar mindset.  There's far more diversity (similar to the real world) at secular U.  It's easier for oldest to see everything in black and white with strong opinions.  While this is good for personal faith, it's not so good when dealing peacefully with the world or even just non-faith issues of any sort.  I also like having a little bit larger of a school just to have more opportunities for things to do while on campus, but that can happen with secular or Christian.

 

Having Christian profs is nice, but honestly, both kids have them (just not all of middle son's are).  Middle son and one of his lab bosses attend the same church.  ;)

 

When kids go off to college they will do whatever they want to do.  If "made" to do things during their college years, resentment is often carried on long into their adult lives.  Doing things by choice often strengthens.  At both places, different choices are there.

 

With that respect, youngest may still choose his own college within our price range.  He's considering both secular and Christian schools.  No matter which one he attends I'll be praying for him daily as he decides whether the faith he grew up with is truly his or not.  We've raised him with a solid foundation and he'll always be accepted here no matter what he chooses, though obviously, I do have a preference in which way I'd like to see him choose.

[PeterPan]

Just as an observation, many christian universities and colleges are now putting their chapel services online.  So if you want to see for yourself the flavor on campus, well there you go.  I've been listening to them as I've researched college, and it's pretty interesting the differences.  

 

As far as secular vs. christian, I'm with Faith that there are circumstances under which a christian college doesn't even offer what a particular student (who might have otherwise preferred a christian college) needs.  My dh was in that boat for engineering.  

 

We're just branching into this ourselves.  Dd would like *options* and we're open to that.  At this point I'm basically hoping that she can pray, research, observe, and come to a spiritually mature sense of where she ought to be going.  I don't think it's my job to decide that for her (though I can offer wise counsel), and I don't think I need to be worried as long as goes through it in that way.  And yes, there is a segment of kids in conservative christian colleges who don't want to be there.  On the other hand, there are AMAZING people there, and you form lifelong relationships that have that added bond that you would find harder to get in a secular school.  My dh has a couple christian friends from college he keeps up with.  I have many, and as an added bonus, I make friends with alumni from other years that I didn't necessarily know but who we connect with and relate to because of the similar background.  To me that's a wonderful thing.  So my counsel to my dd is to go to a christian college unless there's a compelling reason otherwise.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

.  On the other hand, there are AMAZING people there, and you form lifelong relationships that have that added bond that you would find harder to get in a secular school.  My dh has a couple christian friends from college he keeps up with.  I have many, and as an added bonus, I make friends with alumni from other years that I didn't necessarily know but who we connect with and relate to because of the similar background.  To me that's a wonderful thing.  So my counsel to my dd is to go to a christian college unless there's a compelling reason otherwise.

I attended a very secular, though by many measures conservative, school.  I was active in a couple on campus Christian groups and attended an off campus church.  I still am in touch with people who were friends in these organizations.  In fact, one of them is a major homeschooling mentor mom.

We frequently go to summer events sponsored by one of these groups.  I think there was a significant effect of feeling under a lot of pressure at school and having the commonality of faith and common worship to build bonds, even though we were not in a faith based school.

 

One of my favorite memories of being an English major there was once in a seminar class on Chaucer that was discussing the allegory Pearl, when the professor made some very incorrect statements about Christian belief, which he referred to as "the Christian myth".  About half the members of class were active in one of the Christian campus group (ranging from non-denominational Protestant, to Fellowship of Christian Athletes, to the Catholic student club).  There was then a lively discussion as the class members went into detail about what the meaning of various Christian beliefs and practices were, both in the historic and contemporary context.

 

When we were visiting West Virginia University a few weeks ago, I noted the large number of churches that bordered campus, almost to the point of campus having grown around them. I thought this was a very good sign.

[ThisIsTheDay]

>>>>> What are your thoughts on the importance?

 

I will never say never!

 

In general, I would have preferred Christian for my dd. However, she was dead set against a Christian university because of the hypocrisy she's seen at church.  She said she'd rather go to a secular college where she at least has an idea of where people are really coming from.

 

My ds was leaning toward Christian, but I wasn't thrilled with the academics at his particular choice.  Now he's considering a state uni.  He has a few more years of high school, so there's plenty of time to decide.  I'd encourage him to consider either a different Christian school, or secular.

 

I know that one can be lost or saved at either kind of school. 

 

I'm more focused on the big picture and my kid following God's path for their life, which may or may not include a Christian college (or college at all). He's left us with no doubt that my dd should be going to a state school in the fall.  I am so grateful for that!  :)

[creekland]

I attended a very secular, though by many measures conservative, school.  I was active in a couple on campus Christian groups and attended an off campus church.  I still am in touch with people who were friends in these organizations.  In fact, one of them is a major homeschooling mentor mom.

We still have friends we keep up with from our secular U too, both Christian and secular.  ;)

 

I'm more focused on the big picture and my kid following God's path for their life, which may or may not include a Christian college (or college at all).

 

This is what I think too.  God shows folks where they belong (sometimes by finances), or if there are genuine equal choices, I don't think He cares which is chosen.  In either case, it's up to the student to choose to continue following - or not.

 

I just got off the phone with middle son - he's getting ready for their Bible study tonight.  ;)  He has a nice group of Christian friends - and still has secular friends.  That's the way it was for hubby and I in college, so that's probably why I still prefer it that way.  But... we will still let youngest choose for himself if the finances work out that he has a choice.  It's his life.

[creekland]

Sure, it was a consideration for us--there's no way I'd want my son to go to a religious school, unless it was a Friends/Quaker university.

 

I'm a little surprised the Jesuit schools (like Fordham) wouldn't rank up there too.  I know plenty of secular school "believers" (both atheists and believers) who will make exceptions for Jesuit schools if their kid likes them.  Generally these folks will consider schools with ties in name only too (like Duke).

 

Some won't consider any of the above, but those are generally the evangelical atheists who feel if the college can't/won't cut ALL ties they don't want any part of them.

[Candid]

I actually disagree with Faith's premise that too many is the problem. Sure there are going to be a lot of regional universities and colleges that don't get up to the high prestige level. But that cuts across the religious/secular divide. I'm going to come back to the whole first tier third tier argument in a moment.

 

The reason their are no prestigious religious schools is because of two factors. The first is the historical one: almost all the top ranked schools that are private (Harvard, Yale, etc) began as Christian schools. It was unwise for Christians to let their control of these schools slip. You can read books on the subject, but I assume that most would still be the top schools they are today if Christians had done a better job staying in control.

 

The second factor is that school tend to be ranked by opinion. Schools don't change position very swiftly or easily. It is wise to know the areas you are interested in and find out what the school is liked based on research or publication or some other measurable factor. 

 

BUT let's also challenge the distinction between top tier and third tier as the bottom is referred to. As it happens, I have direct experience at both. I received my degree from a large secular university, always ranked in the top 30 schools in the country. Some years later, I consider going back to school to teach English and I need to pick up some classes to do that. As a married woman, I couldn't hare off to the land of prestige and instead went to another secular university that is definitely a regional school that you can find listed in the third tier. At both schools I took liberal arts classes. Was the teaching any better at the prestigious school? NO! Was my competition a bit weaker at the third tier school, yes. BUT in many ways, I could have done more at it than I had at top thirty school because the competition was less intense. 

 

Research each school you want to attend. If you have a specific goal. Research that too.

 

But be careful! My dad taught in the Med school of another prestigious school who had a hard time meeting one of their goals (although they were private they desired to train doctors for the state they were in). Because the state's flagship was highly ranked and another highly ranked school in the state also had a med school, they had a hard time attracting good students who they thought would stay in state. They actually went out to local, regional LACs in the state to interview the science faculty to find out if the students would be able to cut it at their med school. The one school my dad still mentions negatively because the science faculty sent this delegation a clear message that they didn't care is a school that is listed in College That Change Lives. So while the school might be good to go to in some areas, it was not a school to go to if you wanted to go to med school. 

[plansrme]

I am almost to the "over my dead body" position on my kids' attending Christian universities.  We are Christian, Southern Baptist, evangelical, the whole nine yards, but growing up, I went to an "independent, Bible-believing fundamentalist [those are code for "independent"] Baptist" church and school that considered itself a failure if its graduates went somewhere other than Pensacola, Tennessee Temple (but you've never even heard of that one, but it was their favorite) or BJU.  It was practically a disgrace that I, class valedictorian, went to Big State U.  When I got to Big State U, I discovered what a lousy job said high school had done with my academics.  I did fine, but no thanks to them, frankly.  My ill-prepared classmates mostly washed out of their Christian colleges or the local diploma mill, which was acceptable because the kids could live at home and not be corrupted by the college experience.  When I got to Big State U, I found lovely Christian friends and lovely non-Christian friends, and I was thrilled to have a bigger view of the world.  The experience did not make me doubt my faith in the least.  In fact, the people I knew from high school who fell the furthest and fastest from their faith were actually those who went to the approved Christian colleges.  That is anecdotal only, and probably not true of every population, of course, but that was my observation.

 

If one of my kids desperately wanted to go to a severely Christian college of some sort, I would get over it, but it is not something I plan to encourage.  

[FaithManor]

I am almost to the "over my dead body" position on my kids' attending Christian universities.  We are Christian, Southern Baptist, evangelical, the whole nine yards, but growing up, I went to an "independent, Bible-believing fundamentalist [those are code for "independent"] Baptist" church and school that considered itself a failure if its graduates went somewhere other than Pensacola, Tennessee Temple (but you've never even heard of that one, but it was their favorite) or BJU.  It was practically a disgrace that I, class valedictorian, went to Big State U.  When I got to Big State U, I discovered what a lousy job said high school had done with my academics.  I did fine, but no thanks to them, frankly.  My ill-prepared classmates mostly washed out of their Christian colleges or the local diploma mill, which was acceptable because the kids could live at home and not be corrupted by the college experience.  When I got to Big State U, I found lovely Christian friends and lovely non-Christian friends, and I was thrilled to have a bigger view of the world.  The experience did not make me doubt my faith in the least.  In fact, the people I knew from high school who fell the furthest and fastest from their faith were actually those who went to the approved Christian colleges.  That is anecdotal only, and probably not true of every population, of course, but that was my observation.

 

If one of my kids desperately wanted to go to a severely Christian college of some sort, I would get over it, but it is not something I plan to encourage.  

 

We had similar experiences. The high school I attended for about 18 months was a Christian fundementalist one and atrocious because EVERYTHING concerning lifestyle and controlling the students came ahead of academics. Every.thing. Plus, they lived in a lot of fear, fear that if we read the Illiad we would instantly believe in the Greek pantheon, or well, anything. I was nearly expelled for having a collection of Shakespeare's plays in my backpack...they searched our personal items randomly all the time, and occasionally, just to make sure we understood they had total control over us, searched our person in front of the student body. It left me terribly scarred. Their preferred schools, should a student feel desperately inclined to attend college were KMBC, Cinncinati Bible College, and Pensacola. My parents pulled me out thankfully, and I was not behind academically when I entered another school because I had self-studied at home, often getting textbooks from the local library since they kept copies of everything being used at the PS, which was at that time, all things considered, decent.

 

That said, I do still believe, in reference to my other post, that Christian U's/Denominations have shot themselves in the foot by not pooling their resources and having fewer of them that can offer more at lower tuition. In this economy, from what I can see of several of the more well known non-Catholic ones, Taylor, Wheaton, Cedarville, ...they can't fill their freshman classes. It's not surprising. With bills that exceed in most cases $32,000.00, Wheaton hovering around $50,000.00, and low merit aid, being not 100% need matching, they are asking parents to take out 2nd mortgages and personal loans at a time when the parents are underwater on their mortgages, wages have stagnated, and health care costs are skyrocketing. I think more and more families are saying, "NO!"

 

Faith

[Nan in Mass]

I'd be happy with a quaker/friends school for my children GRIN.

 

In my extremely limited experience, large public universities are full of people who are there because they don't have much other choice.  That means that there is a huge variety of students and that being big, it is highly likely that you will find a group of students with similar views to your own.  UMass (way back when) had a Newman center right smack in the middle of the campus with a very nice cafe, a chapel, and roaming priests who approached any student who looked unhappy and offered a sympathetic ear and practical advice.  There always were people praying in the chapel.

 

In my extremely limited experience with one conservative Christian college, the student population appears to be culturally conservative Christian but behaving just like a typical UMass student as far as parties and playmates go.  The difference appears to be in the efforts the school makes to help those students apply their faith to their daily lives.  To do this, there needs to be impressively open and honest with their mentors and the mentors need to be impressively honest about their own feelings and past, sympathetic, understanding, pracitcal, and supportive.  As far as I could see, that was happening.

 

In my extremely limited experience with one Roman Catholic college, the student population was apathetic about both their studies and their religion.  (As opposed to the conservative Christian school where everyone was full of mixed feelings.  Mixed feelings tend to grow and change.  A lack of feelings tends to stagnate until something catastrophic happens to give it something to feel something about.  Colleges try rather hard to avoid that sort of event.  Thankfully.)

 

Nan

[Tenaj]

In this economy, from what I can see of several of the more well known non-Catholic ones, Taylor, Wheaton, Cedarville, ...they can't fill their freshman classes. It's not surprising. With bills that exceed in most cases $32,000.00, Wheaton hovering around $50,000.00, and low merit aid, being not 100% need matching, they are asking parents to take out 2nd mortgages and personal loans at a time when the parents are underwater on their mortgages, wages have stagnated, and health care costs are skyrocketing. I think more and more families are saying, "NO!"

 

Faith

Faith, I'm not sure where your getting your information, and I can't speak to Wheaton or Taylor, but Cedarville had no problem filling their freshman class last year and my dh says that he's heard no negatives about the progress of the coming freshman class though the numbers are not yet available.

 

For 2012 the new freshman coming in were numbered at 832. 2011 the number was 851 and 2010 was 859. Prior to those three years the numbers were in the 700's. The numbers are right in line with where the university wants them to be.

[plansrme]

 I was nearly expelled for having a collection of Shakespeare's plays in my backpack...

 

 

I once wanted to do a book report on Anatomy of a Murder.  It was denied because it included a (yes, "a") curse word, yet Christian romances (anyone remember Grace Livingston Hill?) were A-OK because they did not, despite their complete lack of literary merit.  So yeah, I absolutely get where you are coming from.  We read one Shakespeare play, Macbeth, because it is all about punishment and gettin' what you had comin'.  We would never have read one of the raunchy ones.

 

The only reasons I did not completely flounder in college are that (1) I actually had a pretty decent math teacher, and (2) I read anything and everything I could get my hands on outside of class, and fortunately, I had pretty good taste in literature.  

[creekland]

Walt was courted quite a bit by Fordham--but no, and I'm not even an evangelical atheist.

 

I probably wasn't clear.  With regards to religion & college I see five main types of people - those who only want "true" religious schools ("true" defined by them), those who don't care at all (any school junior wants works - though if religious, it should match family beliefs Catholic/Protestant/Jewish/LDS, etc), those who don't care at all (any school junior wants works), those who want secular, but don't care about minor things like affiliations, and those who don't want ANY connection - even a hint.

 

The evangelical atheists I was talking about wouldn't consider ANY of them (last group) - even those like Duke (affiliated with the Methodist church, but hardly a "religious" college)  - not just those who wouldn't consider Jesuit (or other) schools.  One went to Yale (visit) and got mad when she found out they have a tradition of singing a religious song at orientation - then crossed it off her list.

 

I'll admit to considering those a bit overboard, but to each their own.  There are plenty of colleges to choose from for all types of fit from that extreme to Pensacola.

 

I've just yet to come across someone thinking Friends/Quakers are ok, but no other religious group would be, so I was curious to see if I was understanding you correctly.  I suppose it would still belong in my 2nd group - just new (to me).  FWIW, I'm ok with folks in any of the groups - we literally have students in all 5 groups at school.   I'm probably in the 2nd group myself - maybe 3rd if junior had a compelling reason.  ;)

 

[mommymilkies]

I am not familiar with Quaker colleges, personally, so that didn't make my list.  Can you list some good ones?  

[FaithManor]

Faith, I'm not sure where your getting your information, and I can't speak to Wheaton or Taylor, but Cedarville had no problem filling their freshman class last year and my dh says that he's heard no negatives about the progress of the coming freshman class though the numbers are not yet available.

 

For 2012 the new freshman coming in were numbered at 832. 2011 the number was 851 and 2010 was 859. Prior to those three years the numbers were in the 700's. The numbers are right in line with where the university wants them to be.

Hmmm. My cousin's daughter attends there and she works a campus/work study job related to administration. She told us that they wanted to admit 900-950, but have the percentage of those accepted but turning down the institution due to money is higher than it's ever been.

 

Maybe she is off with her numbers. It's hard to say without seeing documentation or internal memos. I just assumed she was reporting fairly accurately.

 

Faith

[Candid]

I'd be happy with a quaker/friends school for my children GRIN.

 

 

 

The school that eliminated itself and its students from being considered by the med school my dad was at was a Quaker school. I'm not sure the Quaker part had anything to do with their disinterest. 

 

 

My main point, here, all types of schools have negatives. 

[profmom]

I love this thread!  Thank you all for sharing your thoughts!  I need to start at the top to read through all of them again!  

 

The reason I asked is because I think my dd would prefer a Christian environment -- not because I'm afraid she'll lose her faith.  (She is much more grounded than I was when I went to college, even though I grew up in church too.)  I was imagining an experience like OhElizabeth's where she would be able to connect well with so many around her having similar values.  

 

We hear stories about how our closest Christian university isn't very Christian (students' lifestyles and professors' beliefs), but they market themselves as Christian, which is sad.  I think the administration wants it to be or wishes it was or something -- hopefully it's not just to be attractive to Christian parents!  

 

Someone mentioned academics.  I've been more skeptical about academics in Christian high schools than colleges, but I know that some are stronger than others.  I went to a Christian school for 3rd - 6th grades, and, while I was fine, some of those kids had to be held back when they went back to public school -- sad!  Academics are a big reason we haven't chosen to put our kids in Christian high school.

 

You guys made me feel more open about secular options, so that's good.  However, as others have said, it still comes down to praying and asking for God to lead dd and us.  I just received 8 First Choices (recommended here - thanks!), and it looks like it will be very helpful!

 

Thanks again for all the comments!  

[sbgrace]

I'm 40, so this doesn't come from recent experience. But I went to a (solidly) Christian university, and then transferred to a state university when my major was dropped. At the state univ. I found Intervarsity, and made close connections through that. The people seeking God in a secular univ. are usually doing it because they are sincerely seeking, not because it's mandatory chapel and the RA holds dorm floor bible studies with popcorn. From a spiritual perspective, I had a better and deeper experience at the secular university. However, I see a drawback in that more temptation (ie opposite sex in dorms, etc.) is readily available. I think in strong temptation opportunity matters even for the faithful. Of course a person actively seeking out x or y can find it no matter the campus rules.

 

As an aside, Peter Enns Telling God's Story: A Parent's Guide to Teaching the Bible does a very good job imo in guiding a parent to prepare their kids for the kind of faith challenges they might meet in a faith hostile school situation.  I was an education and business major, so I don't remember any faith challenges. But I'm sure that's different in other academic fields and these days it's saturated everywhere. If they don't encounter it in a Christian University, they will likely hear the ridicule and challenges somewhere else at some point (ie internet, media, friends, etc.)

[Nan in Mass]

The school that eliminated itself and its students from being considered by the med school my dad was at was a Quaker school. I'm not sure the Quaker part had anything to do with their disinterest. 

 

 

My main point, here, all types of schools have negatives. 

 

[Corraleno]

I am not familiar with Quaker colleges, personally, so that didn't make my list.  Can you list some good ones?  

 

Haverford, Bryn Mawr, and Swarthmore were all founded as Quaker colleges, although they are no longer formally affiliated. They do retain a strong focus on ethics and community service, and Haverford has a rather unique Honor Code system which is entirely run by students. This site lists some other colleges founded by Quakers.

 

Jackie

[Jane Elliot]

I am thankful every day for the Christian colleges and universities my children and I have attended. With one exception (the school I attended my freshman and sophomore year), they’ve been superior to state schools we’ve attended, both academically and socially.

 

The Christian schools my kids have attended have been more open to discussing and teaching varying views than the state schools we’ve had experience with. I’m sure there are people who are surprised by that statement, but it has absolutely been our experience.

 

The Christian schools our kids have gone to have been very generous with merit aid while the state schools had very little to offer. Consequently, some of our kids have paid the same as or less than they would have at a state school.

 

We don’t withdraw our help (or encouragement) if our kids want to attend a state school, but we do overwhelmingly prefer a carefully chosen Christian school.

 

This preference has nothing at all to do with any worries I have over whether or not my children will lose their faith. The kids we’ve graduated so far are pretty solid. It’s more about the beauty of it. When Christian education is done well, it’s a beautiful thing in my eyes.

[creekland]

The reason I asked is because I think my dd would prefer a Christian environment -- not because I'm afraid she'll lose her faith.  (She is much more grounded than I was when I went to college, even though I grew up in church too.)  I was imagining an experience like OhElizabeth's where she would be able to connect well with so many around her having similar values.  

 

When you visit schools, try to sit in on classes and try to time your visits when Christian groups she might like are meeting so she can sit in on those too.  Both have been helpful for my guys to get a feel for places.  As mentioned before, I've had one choose each way based upon fit for each.  Time will tell with my youngest.

 

At the state univ. I found Intervarsity, and made close connections through that. The people seeking God in a secular univ. are usually doing it because they are sincerely seeking, not because it's mandatory chapel and the RA holds dorm floor bible studies with popcorn. From a spiritual perspective, I had a better and deeper experience at the secular university. However, I see a drawback in that more temptation (ie opposite sex in dorms, etc.) is readily available. I think in strong temptation opportunity matters even for the faithful. Of course a person actively seeking out x or y can find it no matter the campus rules.

This is the conclusion I've come to as well.  You've worded my thoughts pretty well.  ;)

 

Academically, it all depends upon the school and its level more than whether the school is secular or religious.  I've seen highs and lows within each group, though Christian schools tend to not reach tippy top status and tend to not have the same $$ for tippy top research.  Christian schools generally have some research going on - as do lower level secular schools.  I'm only talking about massive amounts, etc, not total presence or absence.

[Nan in Mass]

I just wanted to make a small comment re: accreditation. I have really mixed feelings about how important it is, but as I have some familiarity with two non-accredited colleges (one is new and working toward it, the other is flipping the bird to the accreditation world).  The new one, SKC, has graduated its first class, and all of the students who applied to grad schools got in, without any problem.  I think SKC is smart, though, to allow students to hedge their bets:  they have set up a relationship with an accredited school, and as part of the agreement, the accredited school will offer a joint diploma until SKC has its accreditation.  (It takes some time.)

 

The bird-flipper, xC, I don't know the stats but the one graduate I know applied to grad school and she had no problem getting in. 

 

I think things are changing a little bit in this area, but I'm also fully aware that to a certain extent, it is still a risk. 

 

Just curious - but does this depend on major?  Were the people who were accepted to grad school in a major where their non-accredited school was known to be strong?  Or a more general major like English or biology?  A friend was a STEM major at an unaccredited school and was rather bitter about his degree.  At graduation, he pointed out that the college was unaccredited and said that if he ever wanted to be a college professor, he wouldn't be able to do so.  It doesn't seem to have affected his career, as far as I know, since the college is well-known.  I have no idea what would happen if he applied to grad school.

 

I would not encourage my children to get an engineering degree at a non-accredited school, although I suppose you could make the argument that this is an area where in some fields it is possible to take a professional licensing (sp?) exam so the degree itself does not matter as much.  It would still bother me.  I wouldn't want my children to find out AFTER the four years of hard work that their education was poor enough that they were unable to pass.  I would rather somebody inspected the program BEFORE my children embarked on it.  Obviously still not a guarantee of a good program (or of a good student) but it is another source of information about the school.

 

Nan

 

Nan

[Miss Marple]

When I had younger kids, I gave more consideration to a Christian university.  Now that I look back on it, I think it was mostly out of fear.  When my oldest was a senior he wanted to go into history/economics so we found a really nice Christian university within 3 hours drive from home that also offered him a great merit scholarship.  However, in January of his senior year he suddenly decided he wanted to be a petroleum engineer.  Well, that shot the Christian school right out of the water.  They did not offer that degree.  Thankfully our state school (same distance) was ranked in the top 5 of petroleum engineering schools.  So, with fear and trembling (about the atmosphere he would be entering) we enrolled him.  To be completely honest, I spent days and nights worrying about the naivety of my son and whether he would understand what was going on around him enough to keep himself out of trouble.  We put him in the honors dorm and we truly lucked out with his roommate.  He was a nice Christian boy, albeit much more liberal than my son, but they ended up being roommates for all 4 years and strangely the young man has become much more conservative and my son has become much less rigid :) .  My son didn't lose his faith - in fact, if anything, the atmosphere played a role in making it stronger and more personal.  Do I know everything he did?  I'm sure I don't.  I'm sure I really don't want to know either :)  But he has graduated, is married, and is working and is still attending church and making friends there.  

 

I was much less nervous when ds#2 decided to attend the same school due to his brother's experience.  He will be a junior this coming fall.  Both boys have friends with whom they grew up who have gone to Christian schools.  Is there a difference?  None that I can see.  I know some kids feel more comfortable in the Christian environment, some have no option due to degree offerings, etc.  Both of my boys said that there are plenty of Christian groups on campus that one can be involved in.  There is a Christian Frat - neither son has been interested in that, though.  

 

DS3 will be taking a gap year in which he will attend a Bible school in England...then he will return and most likely attend the same state school as his brothers where he has also been admitted.  DS4 is still considering schools.  And I don't think there is a Christian school in his line-up.  

 

For us, the decision is left up to the student.  After all, by that age, they need to discover their own beliefs and faith. Simply enrolling them into a Christian school because one fears the loss of faith may just delay that student developing his/her own convictions and beliefs.  If I had a student who wanted to attend Christian school, by all means, I would make it happen.

 

*When I mention "fear of loss of faith" that is because it is the most prevalent reason the people I know send their kids to Christian school.  I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons to send a student to Christian school, but the "fear" is the one I'm most familiar with and the one I experienced, myself.

[Miss Marple]

double post

[MomsintheGarden]

Some majors need more than regional accreditation.

 

I would not encourage my children to get an engineering degree at a non-accredited school, although I suppose you could make the argument that this is an area where in some fields it is possible to take a professional licensing (sp?) exam so the degree itself does not matter as much.

I would take it a step further, and would not send my child to study for an engineering degree at a school that is not ABET certified. I am not sure how ABET certification affects professional licensing through the PE exam, which is especially important for Civil Engineering. Perhaps someone can help interpret http://www.abet.org/licensure-registration-certification/, but it seems that you would need ABET cert to sit for that exam.

 

I think ABET cert is nice to have for Computer Science but not necessary.

 

For Chemistry and Biochemistry, ACS approval is very nice to have, but not necessary either. Dd is in Biochem at a non-ACS school. They are talking about it but it will take a few years for it to happen. She's been told she will not have a problem getting accepted to grad schools.

[Barbara H]

There are huge problems with attending schools that are not  regionally accredited. The daily student experience may be fine. The end outcome for some students may be fine, but it is a risky and expensive gamble. I've worked with many adult students who are returning to college after a break. Of course the first time they all thought they'd be the one who would go straight through and finish on time but then life got in the way. They didn't finish the first time for all sorts of different reasons (got a good job with long hours, illness, got married and needed to move for a husband's job, ran out of money, needed to leave school to care for an elderly relative, lost interest due to lack of maturity, decided they wanted to study something that wasn't offered at their school, etc.)  Those who had studied at an accredited college often could use past credits and move much more quickly to a degree. Those who had attended an unaccredited college were basically left with a pile of totally worthless credits. Their time and money investment for little return.

 

I worked with a student who had completed an associate's degree at an unaccredited college. He chose this college because the schedule was better for him than the community college. It looks like a perfectly fine legitimate college and if a person didn't know to check accreditation it would never occur to them there would be a problem. He thought he'd never go beyond an associate's degree anyway because he didn't think he was very smart. Then he had a family, wanted higher earnings and realized he could do his bosses job if he had a Master's degree. Too bad the two year associate's degree he had was worthless. Zero credits transferred to the state university. Had he completed a 60 credit Associate's degree at the community college in our state 100% of those credits would have transferred and his general education credits would have been fully met. So, his only choices at that point were to go with a much lower quality and more expensive online program that would take the credits or to start over from scratch.

 

As far as graduate school, I would keep in mind that it is typical for students who have to pay for professional school (medical, law, business) but for many academic disciplines (science, social science, math, etc.) good students should expect to receive research or teaching assistantships that cover the cost of tuition plus a very modest living stipend. If the only place a student can get in is to a Master's program than have to pay for themselves in many fields that's a sign they probably should not go to graduate school. If your student is thinking about graduate school, their goal should be not just on getting in but on being well prepared to get into a better quality program and to receive funding there.

[Ruth in CA]

As others have said, it depends on your child and your child will make their own choices no matter where they are -- choices you may not like.  For me, I went into college with lots of questions about my faith that I could not ask at the conservative boarding school I had been attending -- nor did I feel I could ask my parents.  I honored my parents request that I join the intervarsity group at my secular college -- and at first that was just what it was.  What I found was a place where I could ask my questions.  it turned out to be better for me than a Christian school where I might have felt the need to keep masks in place.  

 

Sending my dd off to college has been a different process.  Through high school, we consistently encouraged her to ask hard questions about her faith -- to discuss things and work them through logically.  I have full confidence that she will stay strong because she has gotten a lot of her questions dealt with in the last few years.  

[G5052]

Having sat on many selection and interview committees during my years of university and government employment, I'm very aware of how degrees from certain universities are perceived.  If secular employment is at all a possibility, I'd be very wary of getting a degree from  certain Christian colleges.  There will always be a subtle flag in the eyes of some people that will immediately eliminate you.  You may not see it yourself, but I've sat on committees that automatically put aside resumes of anyone from certain colleges, no matter what else they did.  The same thing could be said of course of certain secular colleges that aren't well thought of.  It is always worth picking a college with a good reputation at large, although everyone has their biases of course.  Hopefully a committee will blunt that though.

 

And yes, watch the degree specifics too.  My undergraduate degrees were from one of only two schools in the state that had the right certifications/curriculum for those degrees, and it made a huge difference later on.  When I applied to graduate school, I was accepted almost without question, and my possibilities of employment were far, far broader than friends and relatives who had gone elsewhere.  Some employers will have on their checklists that you must have a degree from a school with the right certification/curriculum.

 

I know the arguments about sending them away to the wolves and losing everything you've built into them, but the downside may be that they have a harder time getting into graduate school and certain avenues of employment.  I think that you have to look at the whole picture carefully and thoughtfully.

[Julie in MN]

There are huge problems with attending schools that are not  regionally accredited.

 

 

Keep in mind that the whole university is not "accredited" as far as I understand it.  It is the individual schools within the university which are accredited within their individual fields. 

 

I went to a huge university, secular, state school, largest campus in the country at the time, and yet my individual department was having political arguments with the accreditation committee and refused to politically align with the accreditation committee, leaving some students without an accredited degree in the field.  Granted, that was "back in the day" when a lot of professors came out of the rebellious 60s and 70s (I graduated college in the 80s).  But the point is that the whole university was not "unaccredited," just the one field.

 

I also think that at least some of the time, employers do not really understand or perhaps care about accreditation, even if the paperwork says they require a degree from an accredited college.  (That is not to say they won't have their prejudices or past bad experiences with some certain student affecting their point of view.)

 

Julie

[creekland]

 If secular employment is at all a possibility, I'd be very wary of getting a degree from  certain Christian colleges.  There will always be a subtle flag in the eyes of some people that will immediately eliminate you.  You may not see it yourself, but I've sat on committees that automatically put aside resumes of anyone from certain colleges, no matter what else they did. 

 

If these apps are being set aside purely due to the "religious" aspect of a college, that is highly illegal.  If I ever got wind of it in ANY committee I was part of, I'd be turning folks in.  We don't need to live in a country like that IMO.  (All that said even though my personal preference is for secular schools...)

 

If the reason schools are set aside is due to not being accredited or other such things (eg previous grads not being up to snuff on the job), that's different.  I know at our (public) school where teachers are hired on a regular basis there is never discrimination due to Christian vs secular place of study.  They choose based upon subject knowledge, ability to control a class and what else the prospective teacher can offer the school with their extra curriculars and experience.

 

If you look at any professional or grad school, you'll find religious undergrad schools represented.  If there weren't, I imagine a lawsuit would be forthcoming quickly.

 

[G5052]

If these apps are being set aside purely due to the "religious" aspect of a college, that is highly illegal.  If I ever got wind of it in ANY committee I was part of, I'd be turning folks in.  We don't need to live in a country like that IMO.  (All that said even though my personal preference is for secular schools...)

 

I agree, but religious discrimination is a live and well.  Hiring committees can be very good at finding legal reasons to reject a candidate that doesn't fit "off the books" criteria.  If you have 100 resumes of highly qualified individuals for a selective position, the smallest thing can be a problem.  They'll find something like not enough research experience or the wrong academic focus, but "off the books" they'll say that they don't like the Christian undergraduate school.  And there would be nothing to prove that other than hearsay.  In my circles, the degrees were all secular, but that's pretty typical of science and engineering.

 

Frankly being on hiring committees scared me.  I always wondered why on earth they ever hired me  :crying: .  

[Barbara H]

Keep in mind that the whole university is not "accredited" as far as I understand it.  It is the individual schools within the university which are accredited within their individual fields.....

 

I also think that at least some of the time, employers do not really understand or perhaps care about accreditation, even if the paperwork says they require a degree from an accredited college.  (That is not to say they won't have their prejudices or past bad experiences with some certain student affecting their point of view.)

 

Julie

 

Hi Julie,

Actually, yes, whole colleges and universities are regionally accredited. The accreditation process looks at a variety of overall factors about the school - including courses offered, faculty qualifications, facilities, etc. It is actually pretty rare for schools to lose accreditation and there are plenty of lousy schools that are accredited so this is just a very basic standard. There are additional kinds of accreditation than can affect specific departments of a university including ABETS for engineering that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

I agree some employers don't know the difference and for certain jobs a college degree is a college degree, period. So, it may not cause any problems for a person who completes the full degree or isn't interested in grad school and doesn't end up needing a lot of mobility to different kinds of employers. But, life goals have a way of changing for many of us and the recession has made that even more true. I've counseled transfer and nontraditional students and many are devastated when they hear from the registrar at the state university or private college, that their credits will not be considered because they did not come from a regionally accredited school. I just don't think it is worth the risk.

[Nan in Mass]

I would take it a step further, and would not send my child to study for an engineering degree at a school that is not ABET certified. I am not sure how ABET certification affects professional licensing through the PE exam, which is especially important for Civil Engineering. Perhaps someone can help interpret http://www.abet.org/licensure-registration-certification/, but it seems that you would need ABET cert to sit for that exam.

 

I think ABET cert is nice to have for Computer Science but not necessary.

 

For Chemistry and Biochemistry, ACS approval is very nice to have, but not necessary either. Dd is in Biochem at a non-ACS school. They are talking about it but it will take a few years for it to happen. She's been told she will not have a problem getting accepted to grad schools.

 

[creekland]

I agree, but religious discrimination is a live and well.  Hiring committees can be very good at finding legal reasons to reject a candidate that doesn't fit "off the books" criteria.  If you have 100 resumes of highly qualified individuals for a selective position, the smallest thing can be a problem.  They'll find something like not enough research experience or the wrong academic focus, but "off the books" they'll say that they don't like the Christian undergraduate school. 

 

I'm sure the KKK is alive and well in certain areas too - and discriminating in hiring, but there's no way I'd ever be a part of it without saying something.  What is wrong is wrong and saying nothing when on the hot spot and knowing about it is akin to being part of it IMO.

 

FWIW, I don't believe there is much discrimination at all going on.  I see oodles of students heading off to colleges each year - most secular, some Christian.  I see no difference in those getting jobs after they graduate based upon similar levels of schools (incoming stats - reputation of program).  I believe the vast majority of employers realize discrimination is wrong and don't participate in it.

 

Of course, employers will favor certain schools, but that's different.  "Favoritism" is generally based on experience with the school itself or graduates from it on the job.  It's good to look for schools employers favor as that can get you bonus points and/or invited to an interview over oodles of other candidates.  Both religious and secular schools can be favored.  It all depends upon the program and who's hiring.

 

What is 100% WRONG is looking at an app and discarding it due to race, religion, gender or a myriad of other things - regardless of how it is termed "officially."

 

As I mentioned before, when we were researching grad schools and med schools (including top schools) I definitely saw religious schools represented well, so I don't really feel discrimination is widespread.  DO check to see that the specific school you are interested in has had recent success getting grads into jobs/grad/prof schools as that is likely to give an idea as to the caliber of the program there.  (And check for appropriate accreditation as many places DO require it.)

[Nan in Mass]

MomsintheGarden - Trying again.  Editing and replying with quote seem to be not working for me today.  ABET certification was the certification I had in mind, and it would definately be more a matter of DIScouraging than not encouraging.  I just know never to say never...

Nan