George Zimmerman

[QueenCat]

And I see him as a guy who was tired of his neighborhood having to live in fear of the next burglary.  

 

So his action was to stalk and kill a teen who went out for a snack and lives in the neighborhood. It is typical in "male mentality" to confront someone who is stalking you, asking them what they want from you or why they are following you. It is not typical for that person to KILL you.Unfortunately, I doubt GZ will ever have to pay for his actions in a meaningful way.

 

Very scary for anyone who lets their teens walk to the local convenience store, wearing perfectly normal clothes for teenagers, acting like teens do, yapping on the phone, on a leisurely stroll home.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

So his action was to stalk and kill a teen who went out for a snack and lives in the neighborhood. It is typical in "male mentality" to confront someone who is stalking you, asking them what they want from you or why they are following you. It is not typical for that person to KILL you.Unfortunately, I doubt GZ will ever have to pay for his actions in a meaningful way.

 

Very scary for anyone who lets their teens walk to the local convenience store, wearing perfectly normal clothes for teenagers, acting like teens do, yapping on the phone, on a leisurely stroll home.

 

Some corrections...

--Trayvon didn't live there.  He was staying there, and had a legal right to be there, but he was not living there. 

--Zimmerman wasn't following a teen out for a snack.  He was following someone he didn't recognize and thought was acting suspiciously.

--IF Martin did physically confront Zimmerman, that changes your "concerns" dramatically.  The shooting did occur with Martin on top of Zimmerman.  How they reached that point IS part of the story and DID affect the outcome.  You can't gloss that over as unimportant.

[QueenCat]

Some corrections...

--Trayvon didn't live there.  He was staying there, and had a legal right to be there, but he was not living there. 

--Zimmerman wasn't following a teen out for a snack.  He was following someone he didn't recognize and thought was acting suspiciously.

--IF Martin did physically confront Zimmerman, that changes your "concerns" dramatically.  The shooting did occur with Martin on top of Zimmerman.  How they reached that point IS part of the story and DID affect the outcome.  You can't gloss that over as unimportant.

 

It was his father's home. Most people would consider that to be his home too, even if it was not his permanent home.

 

Walking through your or your parent's neighborhood is not a suspicious act.

 

I did not suggest TM physically confronted GZ. It is reasonable to assume from prior evidence that he verbally asked him why he was following him. Who was physical first will NEVER be known because TM is DEAD and can't give his side of the story.

[weaver_67579]

I do not for one second believe Martin acted in fear of his own life, and the argument that he turned around from his home because he feared for his brother is simply being weaved out of thin air.  He was chatting on the phone the entire time.  The person on the other end joked with him about Zimmerman.  This was not a kid fleeing for safety.  And did you just argue Martin couldn't flee was because Zimmerman was in a truck?  But then place the blame on Zimmerman because he exited his truck?  Come on.

 

On the call - were those wind noises from Zimmerman running, or from...the wind?  Or the rain?

 

Look at your own timeline.  Martin was at one point less than  45 second walk to his home, and then 2-3 minutes later he is in a confrontation with Zimmerman.  *IF* he turned and assaulted Zimmerman physically, then for all of GZ's mistakes Martin made the biggest one by hitting, and then pinning to the ground, someone who was engaging in a legal activity. 

 

And if he was so freaked out-why in the world would he not hang up with his friend and call 911 himself about some strange guy following him? Why didn't she call them about that?

[QueenCat]

And if he was so freaked out-why in the world would he not hang up with his friend and call 911 himself about some strange guy following him? Why didn't she call them about that?

 

People don't always react rationally in those type of situations. Especially teenagers. I think their reactions were normal for teenagers. And most of the teenage boys I know might react similarly, once they realized they should be fearful. And NO, the teenage boys I know are not thugs, just normal, well behaved teenage boys.

[Matryoshka]

Well, according to his testimony he was on the ground being physically attacked and was in fear of his life.  If someone is attacking you close enough to be striking you in the face, sticking a gun towards them and saying "Back off!" would be monumentally stupid.

 

Why?   The options would obviously have been back off or be shot through the heart.  I think 99% of people, even if currently beating someone up, if they have a gun pointed at them point-blank, will back off if given a second to realize it. 

[weaver_67579]

He could tell from that distance he was on drugs, but not how old he was? Zimmerman could tell be didn't belong in the area?

 

 

 

Hmmm  I have been able to tell some people were impaired from a distance. I don't find that strange. I have seen people walking around weaving, stumbling or acting just kind of strange... If he was wearing a hoodie, I could see how you could see the "off" behavior and not still be able to determine age accurately.

 

I am from a rural area and from an even more rural one. I do take notice of people not from the neighborhood-both in vehicles and walking. In fact, I write down license plate numbers if I see a not "regular" vehicle stopped close to the farm. A few years ago there was a robbery in my tiny home town-of the post office. The three involved were very quickly captured due to the fact that several residents had noticed a strange vehicle in town by the post office and were able to give a description. I do not think it is abnormal to notice someone is not from the area.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Why?   The options would obviously have been back off or be shot through the heart.  I think 99% of people, even if currently beating someone up, if they have a gun pointed at them point-blank, will back off if given a second to realize it. 

 

Because the assailant could take the gun away?  Point blank means they can reach it quite easily (the gun in this case was fired from around 4 inches away).  Sticking a gun towards the person hitting you while saying "Back off!" would be really, really stupid.

[weaver_67579]

You have never seen a guy shove another guy, then wind up on the losing end of the fight?

nope-but then I don't tend to hang with folks prone to fighting either.. ;0)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

It was his father's home. Most people would consider that to be his home too, even if it was not his permanent home.

 

Walking through your or your parent's neighborhood is not a suspicious act.

 

I did not suggest TM physically confronted GZ. It is reasonable to assume from prior evidence that he verbally asked him why he was following him. Who was physical first will NEVER be known because TM is DEAD and can't give his side of the story.

 

You do know that under the law who was physical first isn't that relevant, correct? Yes, TM is dead.  I do not know why you believe that means we have to believe that Zimmerman's version isn't true.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Hmmm  I have been able to tell some people were impaired from a distance. I don't find that strange. I have seen people walking around weaving, stumbling or acting just kind of strange... If he was wearing a hoodie, I could see how you could see the "off" behavior and not still be able to determine age accurately.

 

I am from a rural area and from an even more rural one. I do take notice of people not from the neighborhood-both in vehicles and walking. In fact, I write down license plate numbers if I see a not "regular" vehicle stopped close to the farm. A few years ago there was a robbery in my tiny home town-of the post office. The three involved were very quickly captured due to the fact that several residents had noticed a strange vehicle in town by the post office and were able to give a description. I do not think it is abnormal to notice someone is not from the area.

 

For the record, Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was in his "late teens", which was accurate.

[weaver_67579]

Zimmerman has been caught in his own inconsistencies.  Or lies, if you will.  Most notably IMO -- He told Sean Hannity shortly after the incident that he had no knowledge of Florida's self defense or stand your ground laws.  His college professor has testified otherwise.  At worst we can speculate that Zimmerman had the knowledge of Florida's laws necessary to formulate what story he needed to tell in order to maintain his innocence.  At best, if we're being fair and apply the same standard, then we have to say that both of them have "about zero credibility."

I remember reading this and thought to myself.... there is no way I remember every single thing I was instructed on in college-even in classes that I loved. I think it is strange to expect anyone to... Just because someone told you something, or instructed on it in a school setting, doesn't mean you payed attention or remember it... or even were in class that particular day.

 

BTW I am not saying that is the case with Zimmerman, but I find the idea that an instructor went over something and everyone remembers every detail from every class of out of the realm of reality.

[weaver_67579]

The medical examiner testified that Zimmerman's injuries were "very insignificant" and may have come from just one strike. http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-medical-examiner-20130702,0,1358679.story That story also contains testimony that he has told different versions of his story to different people.

 

 

Nope, that is not how murder trials work. He was not fighting or on drugs when spotted by GM. It also doesn't legally matter what a woman is wearing before she is raped. Zimmerman is the only person on trial.

Umm I thought I heard the other night on the news that Martin did have drugs in his system as found on the toxicology report...

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I remember reading this and thought to myself.... there is no way I remember every single thing I was instructed on in college-even in classes that I loved. I think it is strange to expect anyone to... Just because someone told you something, or instructed on it in a school setting, doesn't mean you payed attention or remember it... or even were in class that particular day.

 

BTW I am not saying that is the case with Zimmerman, but I find the idea that an instructor went over something and everyone remembers every detail from every class of out of the realm of reality.

 

I believe (not 100% certain) the instructor testified that self defense was in the material but was not covered in class.

[TravelingChris]

The prosecution witness said he saw Tm pounding GZ's head into the pavement.  The defense witness, a wound expert, testified that GZ should have been taken to the ER based on the head wounds since he could have very well suffered bleeding in the brain.  According to testimony and you can see by looking at photos, GZ suffered a broken nose.  Now if someone is on top of you, broke your nose already, and has banged your head into the cement at least once, why wouldn't you think you were potentially going to die?  I know I would be thinking that.  Unless the jury thinks that such a thought is unreasonable, they should acquit.  Whether they do or not may have more to do with some of the sentiments expressed on this board about riots following an acquittal. I would hope that no one who has responsibility for raising kids would advocate riots.  Riots are not protests.  Protests can be peaceful.  Riots cannot.

[Laurie4b]

Did you read what I wrote in the first paragraph? Why did he have to kill him to stop the assault?  Why not just point the gun at his chest and say 'back off', or or shoot into the air?

 

Regarding stopping an assault, just realistically speaking, once you are in an altercation of hand-to-hand combat that is that close and especially if you are losing, pulling out your gun and not using  it (by saying back-off ) is likely to be handing your weapon to your opponent. It's a reason smaller people or most women shouldn't pull out a knife, a baseball bat, etc. in an altercation with a stronger assailant. It's more likely to be used against you than to help you. Same with a gun unless you are going to use it.

 

Shooting into the air is illegal and dangerous because the bullet descends and one can't predict where . (You can mathematically of course). A bullet coming back to earth still has enough force to kill someone. 

[weaver_67579]

They should be.... we should be outraged if that man gets off for murdering TM.

Riots are OK????? that is a very horrible thing to say indeed.

[QueenCat]

Riots are OK????? that is a very horrible thing to say indeed.

 

Protests.... there should be HUGE public protests if GZ is found innocent. I should have clarified that when I initially quoted the post I was responding to, I'll edit it. No, I don't support actual rioting. Far more horrible things have been said in this thread though, for you to choose this one to call horrible.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Protests.... there should be HUGE public protests if GZ is found innocent. I should have clarified that when I initially quoted the post I was responding to, I'll edit it. No, I don't support actual rioting. Far more horrible things have been said in this thread though, for you to choose this one to call horrible.

 

What would be the purpose of those protests?  A not guilty verdict can't be appealed.  No further charges can be brought.

[Matryoshka]

What would be the purpose of those protests?  A not guilty verdict can't be appealed.  No further charges can be brought.

 

Against the laws that made GZ's actions even vaguely legal or defensible. 

 

Against carrying around handguns and vigilantism and 'stand your ground' .

[weaver_67579]

For the record, Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was in his "late teens", which was accurate.

I was responding to a pp that asked how one could tell someone was impaired from a distance but not know the age-not to the evidence in the case.

[Harriet Vane]

It was illegal for Martin to attach Zimmerman.  Martin had a phone, if he was that concerned about Zimmerman...he could have done what Zimmerman did---CALLED THE POLICE.  Instead, he backtracked, confronted Zimmerman, and attacked him. 

 

Here is where cultural bias comes in. You are posting as a white woman what his options were. I lived in an almost 100% African-American neighborhood for fourteen years. None of my African-American friends--of any age--would have considered calling the police an option in this scenario. The fact is that the police are very, very under-responsive and downright hostile to people of color. Every single African-American friend or acquaintance I have has had or personally knows someone who has had a specifically unjust and negative encounter with the police. Even though Trayvon would not have to identify his race over the phone, everything in his upbringing and cultural context would contribute to his understanding that the police will not help him and that he has to cope with any danger alone. Or by doing what he did--calling a friend. The fact that he did not call the police in no way indicates the level of threat or danger that he felt.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Against the laws that made GZ's actions even vaguely legal or defensible. 

 

Against carrying around handguns and vigilantism and 'stand your ground' .

 

Hhhmmmm...I somehow don't believe that all self defense laws will be repealed because of this case.  I also don't believe there will be a big push to withdraw all CCW licenses.

 

Perhaps...just perhaps mind you...if there is an acquittal it will be because the prosecution was not able to make its case?

[Matryoshka]

 

Perhaps...just perhaps mind you...if there is an acquittal it will be because the prosecution was not able to make its case?

 

Only based on what the current Florida law is.  We obviously disagree whether or not it should be legal for private citizens to run around with guns acting as de-facto law enforcement.    If that were not legal in Florida, the prosecution could easily make its case.

[weaver_67579]

Protests.... there should be HUGE public protests if GZ is found innocent. I should have clarified that when I initially quoted the post I was responding to, I'll edit it. No, I don't support actual rioting. Far more horrible things have been said in this thread though, for you to choose this one to call horrible.

As for the other horrible things in the thread- I see debate on the facts of the case and the validity of the laws. I did not see any horrible things said other than the discussion of the horrible facts of the actual case. I do see some on either side of the debate finding some on the other side as horrible-seemingly just for not agreeing...

 

What I have not seen is anyone else saying violence and/or destruction of property were ok-as saying riots should happen says. Glad you are clarifying and editing ;0) I don't see the purpose of a protest either-but I'm just not a protest kind of gal...they seem pointless to me...

[weaver_67579]

People don't always react rationally in those type of situations. Especially teenagers. I think their reactions were normal for teenagers. And most of the teenage boys I know might react similarly, once they realized they should be fearful. And NO, the teenage boys I know are not thugs, just normal, well behaved teenage boys.

Hmmm I find that strange-but I am not a teenage boy...

I think teenage DD would call the police if on the phone with a friend and they said they were being followed by some strange dude. I know I would...

[QueenCat]

Hmmm I find that strange-but I am not a teenage boy...

I think teenage DD would call the police if on the phone with a friend and they said they were being followed by some strange dude. I know I would...

 

Girls and boys do not react to life in the same way. Nor do all girls or all boys act in the same way. I would call the police, dh would call the police, one of my boys would likely call the police, the other would likely be so freaked out & scared be beyond scared that he'd probably start screaming at the guy, asking him what he wanted or why he was following him, without thinking it through, but wouldn't have the strength to defend himself against the stalker.

[weaver_67579]

Here is where cultural bias comes in. You are posting as a white woman what his options were. I lived in an almost 100% African-American neighborhood for fourteen years. None of my African-American friends--of any age--would have considered calling the police an option in this scenario. The fact is that the police are very, very under-responsive and downright hostile to people of color. Every single African-American friend or acquaintance I have has had or personally knows someone who has had a specifically unjust and negative encounter with the police. Even though Trayvon would not have to identify his race over the phone, everything in his upbringing and cultural context would contribute to his understanding that the police will not help him and that he has to cope with any danger alone. Or by doing what he did--calling a friend. The fact that he did not call the police in no way indicates the level of threat or danger that he felt.

Just because he didn't use that option-does not equal that is isn't an option to call the police. I have lots of options in most any situation that arises... some I am not willing to take, but they are still options... and Yes I am a white Middle-aged woman-so what. A good choice is a good choice and a bad one is a bad one regardless of age, race or any other demographic.

 

I don't find it appropriate to imply all law enforcement officers are under-responsive or hostile to people of color. That only perpetuates the reasons that people in those communities don't or won't work with law enforcement. There are good and bad in any group of people. I have found that in most any group-there is more good than bad...

 

Maybe people in those communities should do more to improve relations with law enforcement. I have a dear friend who was in law enforcement for years and has talked about people in communities like you mention not working with police, actively hiding/covering for law breakers, being hostile... I think there is plenty of "blame" for the relations you mention on both sides. How about initiating positive interactions with police... I saw this... drug dealer drives a car matching this description with plates that read XXXXX and sits in church parking lot (talked to police about this in January), Mom is drunk and letting toddler run in road (I have called police for this myself), person driving erratically (called on that 2 days ago myself)...

 

As I tell my kiddos frequently-someone's bad behavior is not an excuse for your bad behavior in response...

[weaver_67579]

Girls and boys do not react to life in the same way. Nor do all girls or all boys act in the same way. I would call the police, dh would call the police, one of my boys would likely call the police, the other would likely be so freaked out & scared be beyond scared that he'd probably start screaming at the guy, asking him what he wanted or why he was following him, without thinking it through, but wouldn't have the strength to defend himself against the stalker.

Agreed-that everyone responds differently...

[poppy]

Several posters here argued that Zimmerman having a handgun meant he HAD to shoot Martin. He had to escalate because he feared the gun would be used against him, and he couldn't just use it as a deterrent because that was far riskier than killing Martin. So a fistfight ended up being fatal, and HAD to due to the firearm. To me that sounds Iike an outstanding argument for restricting handguns.

 

And laws that encourage vigilantes to carry them, too. I do not believe for a second that Zimmerman, who wanted a law enforcement career, organized his own neighborhood. Watched and carried a concealed weapon, did not know local gun laws.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Several posters here argued that Zimmerman having a handgun meant he HAD to shoot Martin. He had to escalate because he feared the gun would be used against him, and he couldn't just use it as a deterrent because that was far riskier than killing Martin. So a fistfight ended up being fatal, and HAD to due to the firearm. To me that sounds Iike an outstanding argument for restricting handguns.

 

And laws that encourage vigilantes to carry them, too. I do not believe for a second that Zimmerman, who wanted a law enforcement career, organized his own neighborhood. Watched and carried a concealed weapon, did not know local gun laws.

 

Wait...who argued he *had* to shoot him?  Zimmerman did claim he thought Martin was trying to reach his gun, but I don't think anyone on this board said Zimmerman had to shoot him.  Myself and another poster did point out that drawing the gun while being assaulted to try and use it to scare someone would be incredibly stupid, but that is a different matter.

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say with that last sentence.  He had a CCW permit so I assume he knew the basic firearm laws.  Are you saying that means he knew the intricacies of self defense law?  Bit of a reach imo.

[La Texican]

There can not be a law that truly spells out "justice for all" because we're not clever enough to write one. Obviously, your right to swing your arm ends where my face begins, but when you want to make laws to prevent crimes before they happen you really can not make "justice for all" without 1984 or Madeline L'engle or Stepford Wives style social engineering. A lot of legislative efforts have to be made knowing some will slip through the cracks. So, what would you change the law to? I love the hippies and their belief in non-violence and world peace. What law would you write that would make it illegal to be violent at any time, even in self-defence? If GZ is using the self-defense as loop-hole (succesfully) then what law would you write that would keep that from happening next time, and keep innocent victims from going to jail for true self-defense?

Instead of riots and protests start reading codes and ordinences and find something that's worded well enough to provide "justice for all". If you can't find any then why not? What's not right about them? It's easy to tweak what is written so that it is right, once you know what's right and what's missing. Oh, that's a lot of work and it's not our job.

Sorry this is snarky and not helpful. I have learned that the statutes and codes are available for citizens to read, and that any plain citizen can read them and suggest changes. If the changes are clever and useful any citizen can effect change in the statutes and codes. It's more of a civic duty, imo, to use that power than to protest demanding unspecified, unthoughtout "changes".

What's a solution? What law solves this problem without creating wider cracks to fall through?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Here is where cultural bias comes in. You are posting as a white woman what his options were. I lived in an almost 100% African-American neighborhood for fourteen years. None of my African-American friends--of any age--would have considered calling the police an option in this scenario. The fact is that the police are very, very under-responsive and downright hostile to people of color. Every single African-American friend or acquaintance I have has had or personally knows someone who has had a specifically unjust and negative encounter with the police. Even though Trayvon would not have to identify his race over the phone, everything in his upbringing and cultural context would contribute to his understanding that the police will not help him and that he has to cope with any danger alone. Or by doing what he did--calling a friend. The fact that he did not call the police in no way indicates the level of threat or danger that he felt.

 

In and of itself, no.

However, the state's witness (RJ) who was on the phone with him was so unconcerned by what he told her that when she heard the altercation begin she did not find it overly concerning...not even when he failed to answer her later attempts to call him. 

[Slartibartfast]

I have no idea what you are trying to say with that last sentence.  He had a CCW permit so I assume he knew the basic firearm laws.  Are you saying that means he knew the intricacies of self defense law?  Bit of a reach imo.

 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57592150-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-zimmerman-learned-about-self-defense-in-criminal-litigation-class-military-attorney-testifies/

 

 

Responding to questions from prosecutors, U.S. Army Capt. Alexis Francisco Carter said that the class he taught at Seminole State College delved in detail into self-defense laws, including Florida's "Stand your Ground" statue.

 

"It's something I think the students really wanted to know about, it was so practical, so they were very much engaged in class discussions regarding the issue," Carter said. "I remember talking about this quite a few times, not just on one particular

[nmoira]

Here is where cultural bias comes in. You are posting as a white woman what his options were. I lived in an almost 100% African-American neighborhood for fourteen years. None of my African-American friends--of any age--would have considered calling the police an option in this scenario. The fact is that the police are very, very under-responsive and downright hostile to people of color. Every single African-American friend or acquaintance I have has had or personally knows someone who has had a specifically unjust and negative encounter with the police. Even though Trayvon would not have to identify his race over the phone, everything in his upbringing and cultural context would contribute to his understanding that the police will not help him and that he has to cope with any danger alone. Or by doing what he did--calling a friend. The fact that he did not call the police in no way indicates the level of threat or danger that he felt.

 

Yup. Our neighborhood was until recent years predominantly working class African-American. Neither DH nor any of our white neighbors ever been pulled over for "driving while white," but our male African-American neighbors have a completely different experience. There have been enough police shootings of unarmed black men that the assumption, fairly or not, is that police will shoot first and ask questions later.

[Harriet Vane]

Just because he didn't use that option-does not equal that is isn't an option to call the police. I have lots of options in most any situation that arises... some I am not willing to take, but they are still options... and Yes I am a white Middle-aged woman-so what. A good choice is a good choice and a bad one is a bad one regardless of age, race or any other demographic.

 

I don't find it appropriate to imply all law enforcement officers are under-responsive or hostile to people of color. That only perpetuates the reasons that people in those communities don't or won't work with law enforcement. There are good and bad in any group of people. I have found that in most any group-there is more good than bad...

 

Maybe people in those communities should do more to improve relations with law enforcement. I have a dear friend who was in law enforcement for years and has talked about people in communities like you mention not working with police, actively hiding/covering for law breakers, being hostile... I think there is plenty of "blame" for the relations you mention on both sides. How about initiating positive interactions with police... I saw this... drug dealer drives a car matching this description with plates that read XXXXX and sits in church parking lot (talked to police about this in January), Mom is drunk and letting toddler run in road (I have called police for this myself), person driving erratically (called on that 2 days ago myself)...

 

As I tell my kiddos frequently-someone's bad behavior is not an excuse for your bad behavior in response...

 

I don't intend to imply that all law enforcement officers are under-responsive or hostile. A very dear friend of mine from college is a police officer, and he is everything one would want a police officer to be--hard working, principled, ethical, and absolutely not racist.

 

However, it is a historic fact as well as a current reality that the police (generally) under-respond to people of color or are actively hostile towards them. It is also a historic fact as well as a current reality that people of color have been terribly mistreated in this country and continue to be treated badly, despite the strides we have made in moving towards a more fair society.

 

Because people of color have so often been badly treated (and yes, beaten or killed in the not-so-distant past, not to mention so many other injustices of a less violent nature), people of color rightfully view police authority as always potentially hostile.

 

It is NOT the victim's responsibility to reach out to the aggressor with the olive branch. It is the responsibility of the aggressor to make right what has been done wrong.

 

I lived in an African-American neighborhood (almost 100% people of color) and was active in African-American churches for fourteen years. I have many African-American friends. I am well aware of the urban criminal subculture and have no sympathy for them. However, my years of experience have also made me well aware of just how many good, ethical, honorable people who happen to be African-American have been mistreated, and who live in reasonable fear of the police.

 

To get back to Trayvon--as an African-American male he is very, very unlikely to call the police if he feels himself to be in danger.

[Harriet Vane]

In and of itself, no.

However, the state's witness (RJ) who was on the phone with him was so unconcerned by what he told her that when she heard the altercation begin she did not find it overly concerning...not even when he failed to answer her later attempts to call him. 

 

That may well be. As a 17yo he may well have felt that he would be fine, just keep talking and keep walking. We don't know what was in his mind, because he is dead. However, I did want to address the poster who insisted that if there was a threat he should have called the police, or other posters who are saying that they (as white women) would have done so. In evaluating the case, it's not fair to make assumptions on his behavior based on what we as white women would have done. We have to think fairly about how he would have perceived the situation as an African-American--I doubt it would occur to him to call the police.

[poppy]

I don't think all the posters here are white, or women. But it's pretty obvious to me (a white woman) that a black teen might very well not think to call police. That doesn't mean Sanford police are racist or that he's criminal at all. Just, basic cultural understand of the US will tell you that black men often don't view police as protectors.

 

 

Wait...who argued he *had* to shoot him? Zimmerman did claim he thought Martin was trying to reach his gun, but I don't think anyone on this board said Zimmerman had to shoot him. Myself and another poster did point out that drawing the gun while being assaulted to try and use it to scare someone would be incredibly stupid, but that is a different matter.

He was carrying a gun. He claims he did not draw the gun. He claims Martin saw it and that made him fearful that it would be used against him, and that is why he drew it. The presence of the firearm resulting in its use --- not, according to this most optimistic version of the story, a desire by either party to kill the other. So having the gun meant he had to shoot him.

 

I have no idea what you are trying to say with that last sentence. He had a CCW permit so I assume he knew the basic firearm laws. Are you saying that means he knew the intricacies of self defense law? Bit of a reach imo.

I am saying that his claim that he never heard of Stand Your Ground is not credible. Any lie to investigators weakens all other claims.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't think all the posters here are white, or women. But it's pretty obvious to me (a white woman) that a black teen might very well not think to call police. That doesn't mean Sanford police are racist or that he's criminal at all. Just, basic cultural understand of the US will tell you that black men often don't view police as protectors.

 

 

He was carrying a gun. He claims he did not draw the gun. He claims Martin saw it and that made him fearful that it would be used against him, and that is why he drew it. The presence of the firearm resulting in its use --- not, according to this most optimistic version of the story, a desire by either party to kill the other. So having the gun meant he had to shoot him.

 

I am saying that his claim that he never heard of Stand Your Ground is not credible. Any lie to investigators weakens all other claims.

I believe that statement was made to Sean Hannity, not the investigators.

 

I just double checked - he did not make that claim to the investigators.

 

Your gun argument seems a bit odd and I am not sure what point you believe you are making.

[poppy]

I didn't realize Zimmerman lied to Sean Hannity, not investigators. Correction accepted.

 

As for the rest - "what point you believe you are making" - what an insulting way to say you don't get it. I'm still interested in this topic, but am tired of being baited.

[SKL]

I would not have called the police if I thought someone was following me.  Not because I don't trust cops, but because there's nothing illegal about someone walking behind me - and because I can't read minds to know the person's intent.  I might feel nervous in some such situations (and have), but I would tell myself to keep calm and get the hell out of there (or into a crowd of people) as fast as possible.  Never in a million years would I turn around and confront someone I was scared of, when I had the option of getting away from them.  And if I did feel I had no choice but to interact with the person, I would have acted friendly first, hoping that (a) they were not after me or (b) they would appreciate being treated kindly.  Though if I had to in order to survive, I would have ripped the SOB's eyes out.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I honestly don't get what you are trying to say. Martin wouldn't have been killed by a gun if a gun wasn't there? Sure. I just don't get where you are going with that -- this case won't be changing CCW laws.

[weaver_67579]

I don't intend to imply that all law enforcement officers are under-responsive or hostile. A very dear friend of mine from college is a police officer, and he is everything one would want a police officer to be--hard working, principled, ethical, and absolutely not racist.

 

 

... as are the people I know in law enforcement.

 

 

 

However, it is a historic fact as well as a current reality that the police (generally) under-respond to people of color or are actively hostile towards them. It is also a historic fact as well as a current reality that people of color have been terribly mistreated in this country and continue to be treated badly, despite the strides we have made in moving towards a more fair society.

 

 

I am not denying the historical facts of racism or past police brutality. My point was that I felt the post was implying that all or even most police were/are hostile towards people of color. I am not saying none were/are but I highly doubt I could expect most to be.

 

Because people of color have so often been badly treated (and yes, beaten or killed in the not-so-distant past, not to mention so many other injustices of a less violent nature), people of color rightfully view police authority as always potentially hostile.

 

 

So because some people of color have been poorly treated in the past/present by law enforcement we should assume all/most law enforcement are like that.. kind of like if I said since some Rotweillers bite-then all do... or since some Irish have a temper then all do... the single most racist human being I have ever met was AA-it is ok for me to assume that of all of them . That is a true statement by the way-In College Tameka Collins threatened to beat me up because I was dating someone who was "not my kind" he was Puerto Rican... She was expelled from school for beating up another girl. She is the single most hateful racist human being I have ever met and the only one that was violently so...

 

It is NOT the victim's responsibility to reach out to the aggressor with the olive branch. It is the responsibility of the aggressor to make right what has been done wrong.

 

 

Once again.. Is there some assumption that every person that witnesses a crime or offense has been a victim of police? Does every police officer have to be judged by what someone else has done? I was never a big fan of punishing the whole class for something one kid did... I also don't know how someone that has never personally committed an offense can "make up for" something they have never done.

 

I lived in an African-American neighborhood (almost 100% people of color) and was active in African-American churches for fourteen years. I have many African-American friends. I am well aware of the urban criminal subculture and have no sympathy for them. However, my years of experience have also made me well aware of just how many good, ethical, honorable people who happen to be African-American have been mistreated, and who live in reasonable fear of the police.

 

 

Do you not think there is anything the good people in those neighborhoods could do to make the relationship better? -like I mentioned the cooperating with police in investigations, calling in on crimes they witness, not harboring known criminals... What could the police do to "make up for" something they as individuals had nothing to do with? I have heard the "oh poor me" victim mentality before and find it worthless in changing anything... I'm more of a can do kind of person. In saying that, I do not diminish the wrongs (on both sides) in the past. I'm saying I don't see the point of using it as an excuse to not make positive changes now-and in the future. I know a lot of places have officers that work with school kids, teach safety, do car seat checks...among other things that are positive in the community.

 

To get back to Trayvon--as an African-American male he is very, very unlikely to call the police if he feels himself to be in danger.

 

That is too bad... too bad he didn't... too bad he felt he couldn't/shouldn't ... too bad for the culture that perpetuates that fear... and too bad for the past injustices.  It is just too bad...

 

[LizzyBee]

Regarding stopping an assault, just realistically speaking, once you are in an altercation of hand-to-hand combat that is that close and especially if you are losing, pulling out your gun and not using  it (by saying back-off ) is likely to be handing your weapon to your opponent. It's a reason smaller people or most women shouldn't pull out a knife, a baseball bat, etc. in an altercation with a stronger assailant. It's more likely to be used against you than to help you. Same with a gun unless you are going to use it.

 

Shooting into the air is illegal and dangerous because the bullet descends and one can't predict where . (You can mathematically of course). A bullet coming back to earth still has enough force to kill someone.

Bolding, etc is not working on my computer, but I wanted to respond to the part of your post about smaller people not pulling out weapons. Zimmerman is 5'7" and 185 lbs per his arrest report, and Trayvon was 5'11" and 158 lbs per the medical examiner's report. The ME report can be viewed online. With GZ's weight advantage, I wouldn't consider him the smaller person in the confrontation. Nevertheless, I agree that pointing a gun at someone at point blank range is just as likely to result in a struggle for the gun as the other person backing off.

[SKL]

I also thought I'd note (in response to a similar comment above about black people) that every white person I know has had an unpleasant, probably unfair/obnoxious encounter with the cops.  I've had a few myself.  And I've been pulled over for driving while white (I sure wasn't doing anything else wrong).  I am certain there are racist cops and profiling, but I also wonder if people aren't too ready to assume it's a race thing just because that's what we're brought up to assume.  It's hard to say how prevalent the racist cop encounter really is.

[LucyStoner]

Just to be honest, if I were on the jury I would likely hold my nose and vote to acquit if that is what I felt the law required.  Again, I don't think this makes what he did in anyway ok or acceptable, but as a citizen I would follow the law and not substitute my acknowledged bias for the law.  

 

But let's face it, someone like me is not ever, ever, ever getting on a jury for any sort of serious or violent crime.  Both the sides would want me bounced and I wouldn't lie during the selection process. My employment history alone gets me kicked out the door.  So I am free to peanut gallery commentate and say exactly what i think about people like Zimmerman.  

[poppy]

Well of course. If you as a juror watched the whole trial and felt George Zimmerman should be acquitted, you should acquit him. I remember reading jurors in the Casey Anthony trial say they felt sick acquitting her and they thought she was an awful person. But jury duty is a civic duty I'd hope anyone would take seriously. Any of us might end up on the stand someday and hope for a fair and impartial trial. (To be clear, I do not think George Zimmerman = Casey Anthony).

[nmoira]

I also thought I'd note (in response to a similar comment above about black people) that every white person I know has had an unpleasant, probably unfair/obnoxious encounter with the cops. I've had a few myself. And I've been pulled over for driving while white (I sure wasn't doing anything else wrong). I am certain there are racist cops and profiling, but I also wonder if people aren't too ready to assume it's a race thing just because that's what we're brought up to assume. It's hard to say how prevalent the racist cop encounter really is.

I'm not talking about getting pulled over once or twice.

[LucyStoner]

I also thought I'd note (in response to a similar comment above about black people) that every white person I know has had an unpleasant, probably unfair/obnoxious encounter with the cops.  I've had a few myself.  And I've been pulled over for driving while white (I sure wasn't doing anything else wrong).  I am certain there are racist cops and profiling, but I also wonder if people aren't too ready to assume it's a race thing just because that's what we're brought up to assume.  It's hard to say how prevalent the racist cop encounter really is.

 

You don't know what you don't know.  I am white.  My brother is black.  I can not count the number of times there has been an obvious and stark difference in how people in authority, especially cops, react to us.  The only time I've had trouble at the border?  When in a mixed racial group.  Alone or with other white people?  The difference is astounding and very noticeable.  I have never been given a ticket even when they had cause to stop me.  Once a cop completely changed his tune when he saw me in the car after pulling my brother over.  It couldn't have been any more obvious.  

[Laurie4b]

Bolding, etc is not working on my computer, but I wanted to respond to the part of your post about smaller people not pulling out weapons. Zimmerman is 5'7" and 185 lbs per his arrest report, and Trayvon was 5'11" and 158 lbs per the medical examiner's report. The ME report can be viewed online. With GZ's weight advantage, I wouldn't consider him the smaller person in the confrontation. Nevertheless, I agree that pointing a gun at someone at point blank range is just as likely to result in a struggle for the gun as the other person backing off.

 

I was actually just referring to people in general, not to GZ when I said smaller people and women aren't wise to carry knives, bats, etc. to protect themselves. I was aware of the height/weight of GZ and TM. 

 

GZ, however,  was in the losing position when he pulled the gun out .  He was disadvantaged by his position whether his extra pounds should have advantaged him or if his height might have disadvantaged him. By that point, he was clearly disadvantaged. At that point, if he was going to pull the gun, it couldn't be to brandish it and say, "Back off" as another poster suggested.