s/o adoption thread... family concerns: is this cult-ish or just different? (CC)

[Murphy101]

Wait.

 

I was denied a college education. In fact, I am the only 1 of 4 children to graduate high school. My choice to stick it out was mine. I'd like to place all the blame on my parents who certainly thought women being educated was foolish. My father would say point blank that the dumbest thing men ever did was teach women to read. But the truth is I went to public school k thru 12 and rarely received any intellectual development or encouragement there. Classmates make fun of the nerds. Teachers write off the poor lost cause. Especially if they aren't popular or refuse to conform.

 

I think it's really easy to blame God or blame some spokesperson who perverts God's Will to suit their own twisted means.

 

But intelligent educated non believing people do horrific things to their kids every day too.

 

Personally? I think most of the ATI stuff is stupid. There. I said it.

 

But there's nothing illegal or abusive about refusing to support college for any reason or being stupid. People of all walks do it every day.

 

I think it short sighted and foolish, but that's not illegal or abusive either.

 

To call those things abusive undermines what real abuse is imnsho.

 

So the OP can choose to simply be there quietly disagreeing but loving or the OP can make a stink and be viewed as judgmental and unsupportive and unloving. Maybe over time the couple will relax. Maybe they won't. But I don't buy that people lacking critical thinking skills are the reason they listen to ppl telling them to take a switch to their 6 month old or to have sex with their daughters. That's bull. They do that bc they want to and are looking for a reason. If the OP thinks her relatives are looking for a reason to abuse her rices and nephews, then she has a bigger problem with them than ATI.

[I.Dup.]

To call those things abusive undermines what real abuse is imnsho.

 

 

Thank you.

 

It's ridiculous how quick people are to cry "ABUSE!!!!!!" for everything.

[Shahrazad]

I do see a point in what Martha mentions about people who want to do something using this as an excuse and validation for them to do it. I have a hard time imagining a loving mother who is horrified by the idea of beating her infant crying and having to 'force herself' to beat their 6 month old with a switch because ATI/Gothard/Pearl says so. Clearly it is someone who doesn't have a real moral opposition to the first place and would probably do the same thing whether or not their religious belief 'required' it.

[Janie Grace]

I do see a point in what Martha mentions about people who want to do something using this as an excuse and validation for them to do it. I have a hard time imagining a loving mother who is horrified by the idea of beating her infant crying and having to 'force herself' to beat their 6 month old with a switch because ATI/Gothard/Pearl says so. Clearly it is someone who doesn't have a real moral opposition to the first place and would probably do the same thing whether or not their religious belief 'required' it.

 

I disagree. I was a young, loving mother who wanted to do right by her baby. My pastor's wife enthusiastically told me about Babywise and it seemed very convincing (to my 23-year-old mind). There were oodles of Bible verses and testimonies and a strong "voice" (Ezzo) behind it all. I sat in the hallway as my infant "cried it out" with tears streaming down my face. I didn't want to mother this way, but I was naive and vulnerable to heavy-handed teaching. I forced myself to sit in the hallway because Ezzo said so, and I wanted to be a godly mother.

 

Thank heavens I eventually saw that for the hooey it was, but all that to say -- I *DO* think parents force themselves to do things that don't feel right -- when they are weak themselves (for whatever reason) and a strong voice of authority comes along with a simple formula for perfect parenting.

[Janie Grace]

 

Thank you.

 

It's ridiculous how quick people are to cry "ABUSE!!!!!!" for everything.

 

For the record, I (the OP) have not used the word "abuse" to refer to my extended family one time. In fact, I clearly stated that there is NOT abuse going on. I just said that I'm concerned by their (seemingly) blind allegiance to a man who has rules for every aspect of their lives (which seems "cultish" to me) and by what I fear may be the fall-out with their children.

[Shahrazad]

Janie Grace, I DO understand how a mother desperate to do right by her child might do something like CIO. I was a mom at 18 with an extremely clingy, high-needs baby with DS1 and I was convinced by all the mothers I knew + my son's pediatrician to try CIO and was basically in the same position of crying in the hallway. Thankfully, after 2 attempts, I realized this was not working for us and would never work for his personality.

 

However, I do think it is a huge difference between putting your baby in a safe place (a crib) and sitting outside of the room while they cried it out to sleep, and actively taking a switch to hit your infant because you think they are crying and manipulating you (when they can't do anything else). One is more of a passive action which I can see an unwilling mom succumbing to, the other takes the actual initiation of beating your child...I just can't imagine an mother being coerced into that if she is completely unwilling.

[Janie Grace]

 

I don't think there is much you can do. It helped me as a teen to be involved in the church youth group, which my mother was originally opposed to, but eventually allowed. Being in the home of a stable Christian family where the mom was a high school physics teacher helped. Though it also helped that they were what most would characterize as being ultra-conservative. They didn't see the devil in white bread, but they did see it in high-fantasy (I don't think the high-fantasy genre ever made it on Gothard's radar, so that was weird). They pushed college attendance (at conservative Christian schools) and liked CCM, even the soft-rock CCM.

 

All that to say, in my mind they were still pretty "safe," even when they were "edgy." You have to remember that in this group the world is pretty dangerous. Having a statue of Buddha around you could turn you into a pagan idolater in no time flat. So breaking out, whether there is abuse or self-abuse going on or not, is a very scary proposition. So I think the most you can do is emphasize that you don't intend to endanger them. Emphasize that you're fine with them not dating, not wearing pants, not listening to some music, etc. But if they want to talk about anything you're open to discussion. Let them know that you think they themselves, and their happiness, is important to you. At the moment, the comment in your OP about them not calling themselves "teens" tells me that they don't see anything "off" at the moment. Trying to intervene for people who don't think they need intervention never ends well. So the only thing you can do is make sure you're a safe door to knock on if they need you.

 

Thank you -- this was SO helpful. I really appreciate your perspective as someone who was raised in this. I think we are too edgy for them to fee truly safe around us -- except that we're really familiar. We're okay with secular schools, secular music, wearing pants, college for girls, etc. I sometimes wonder if they would ever let their kids be with us apart from their oversight... it makes me sad that we probably aren't approved companions (though they are very welcoming of us into THEIR home). I can do better on this count though. I can emphasize my approval of God's leading in their lives, pointing out the "pros" of their choices. I can wear skirts at their house. That kind of thing. I do want to stay in their lives and for them to know we're here if they ever need us.

[Murphy101]

But there is a universe of difference between a mother fighting the longing to smooth her crying baby bc of bad advice and a mother who is willing to switch her baby for crying bc of bad advice.

 

One is sad to behold but would have to be rather extreme to be abusive. (Refusing to feed a hungry baby to the point they lose weight and get sickly for example )

 

The other is abusive. It is the mother purposely taking action against her baby. And the scratches and bruises of it are readily apparent.

 

I'm not at all a CIO mom and I don't think the two compare at all. I strongly disagree with CIO but I wouldn't classify it as abuse. Certainly not on par with switching 6 month olds.

[Murphy101]

Hmmm. That's just really not your concern to have though. Parents and kids often have fallout no matter what kind of up bringing they have. It's just a common risk of parenting no matter how it's done. And it's a concern of just about every parent I've ever met. And people who meddle during those falling ours often exacerbate something best left between parent and child. Often to the detriment of that parent/child relationship in the examples I've seen irl.

 

If they aren't abusive, I would need far more than having a major disagreement about how they parent/live to justify interfering.

 

For the record, I (the OP) have not used the word "abuse" to refer to my extended family one time. In fact, I clearly stated that there is NOT abuse going on. I just said that I'm concerned by their (seemingly) blind allegiance to a man who has rules for every aspect of their lives (which seems "cultish" to me) and by what I fear may be the fall-out with their children.

[happyhomemaker25]

I guess what worries me about this is that we are that family to some of my family members. I was raised in a Christian home with Christian grandparents and Christian aunts and uncles. We were your typical go to church whenever the doors opened, pray before every meal,no alcohol having, keep the swearing down family. Very close knit.

As my husband and I began to talk of our own family I was concerned that none of my cousins nor my brother were in church any more. As a matter of fact they were openly rebelling against our faith in some ways. I also looked at my former youth group and realized only a few kids were still active in church. It did bother me. I read some of the Pearls stuff. I read Above Rubies. I read from Vision Forum. Some of that stuff made sense. A lot of sense. Some of it was a little wacky and I just tossed that stuff aside. I.E. I've never whacked a baby in my life. I might have popped a toddler hand a time or two, but I don't spank my babies for any infraction. My girls are welcome to go to college (even though a couple of them are not college material), but we do emphasize that we believe the Bible gives has a priority of home and family for women. We do teach a difference between men and women, but we don't think that just because girls should not do everything boys should do and vice versa that one is inferior... just different. We do not allow teenage rebellion as we think rebellion against father and mother is very unbiblical, however we do encourage discussions and have been known to change our minds a time or two. We don't do typical dating and our kids don't "date" until 18. We are still talking with our two older girls especially about what it will look like when they are 18. They seem to be on board with not getting into the whole modern dating scene HOWEVER we aren't going to be doing arranged marriages either. We are really hoping they trust us enough to see things in a potential mate that they might not see in typical googly eyed love fashion. LOL We don't do youth groups or children's church and finally found a wonderful church family with like minded people and we all enjoy hanging out together as families and have recently started an after school Bible study/fellowship time for all the kids. The moms like the fellowship time as well. :) I don't place a higher priority on schooling then I do on a relationship with Jesus. I ticked my family off recently when they found out that if my daughters found a godly young man who wanted to marry them and start a family before they finished college I would not discourage them. Same for my sons with wives if they could provide for a family. I'm a big Voddie Baucham fan and my family can't stand him. My three girls are farther behind in school then I'm happy with BUT thats because of learning delays and emotional issues. It's not because I don't believe in giving them a proper education. I'm working hard to get them to a place where if they chose college they will not have to struggle too much.

I'm sure there is more my family has picked at me about, but those are some of the big things. I say all that to say this, my family sees me as cultish, controlling, and overbearing. They believe we've been brainwashed and we've been called out on it before. It's mostly because I don't live to their standard. When I saw that all these people I'd grown up going to church with had just completely left the faith (even to the point one of my cousins married an atheist, who I love by the way! LOL) but I'm the one who is ridiculed because I don't send my kids to youth group or let them date. No one acknowledges that we have family worship or that my kids are loving our new church. That my kids are healthy and happy and secure. It's only about what we don't let them do.

It hurts that they only come after me to criticize our choices and never to say, "Hey, good job teaching your kids the Bible and passing on your faith. I'm so glad that your kids love church and Jesus." They do, they really do! If we miss our family prayer time they complain. They don't complain that we don't go to youth group.. .they do complain if we miss after school BIble study. No one seems to notice that my kids will sit at lunch sometimes and discuss the sermon our preacher gave the Sunday before, they only notice that we don't have a kids program.

I'm really not saying all that to brag or sound holier than thou but being *that* family to my family has given me a whole new insight into this matter. I'm sure some people abuse it, but people can find a way to use anything to be abusive. The most abusive people in our family don't even go to church or read much of anything.

I still read some of the "fundie" stuff out there and glean a lot from it. I also use common sense and know what won't work for my family. My husband is very steady and a great spiritual leader. He can spot a fraud from miles and miles away. I trust him.

Oh and for the record my family has pushed us to the point that my kids aren't allowed to be alone with them, because I am afraid they will be grilled about life at our home and thats not fair to any child. I have a few people pleasers and I also have family that have ears to hear only what they want to hear. I can't let those two things collide. Not because I'm afraid of what my kids would say but because I'm afraid they would be made to feel like we are doing it "all wrong" and it would give my family fodder for gossip that is untrue and hurtful. It's happened before. They are not the "safe" people for my kids.

[SarahW]

Well . . . did Bill Gothard live at your house? Or are you perhaps giving him more power than he deserves? If your parents made mistakes, it's on them. The world is full of "bad influences." But humans are responsible for their own choices. Two people can listen to the same speech and come away with completely different feelings / beliefs. Must be because they already had different views before they attended the speech. Child/wife abuse existed before Pearl/Gothard etc. and would certainly flourish without them. I don't see any value in scapegoating the actions of an adult.

 

 

I blame him because he runs the cult.

 

 

But let's all blame the victims. Great.

[Shahrazad]

I guess what worries me about this is that we are that family to some of my family members. I was raised in a Christian home with Christian grandparents and Christian aunts and uncles. We were your typical go to church whenever the doors opened, pray before every meal,no alcohol having, keep the swearing down family. Very close knit.

As my husband and I began to talk of our own family I was concerned that none of my cousins nor my brother were in church any more. As a matter of fact they were openly rebelling against our faith in some ways. I also looked at my former youth group and realized only a few kids were still active in church. It did bother me. I read some of the Pearls stuff. I read Above Rubies. I read from Vision Forum. Some of that stuff made sense. A lot of sense. Some of it was a little wacky and I just tossed that stuff aside. I.E. I've never whacked a baby in my life. I might have popped a toddler hand a time or two, but I don't spank my babies for any infraction. My girls are welcome to go to college (even though a couple of them are not college material), but we do emphasize that we believe the Bible gives has a priority of home and family for women. We do teach a difference between men and women, but we don't think that just because girls should not do everything boys should do and vice versa that one is inferior... just different. We do not allow teenage rebellion as we think rebellion against father and mother is very unbiblical, however we do encourage discussions and have been known to change our minds a time or two. We don't do typical dating and our kids don't "date" until 18. We are still talking with our two older girls especially about what it will look like when they are 18. They seem to be on board with not getting into the whole modern dating scene HOWEVER we aren't going to be doing arranged marriages either. We are really hoping they trust us enough to see things in a potential mate that they might not see in typical googly eyed love fashion. LOL We don't do youth groups or children's church and finally found a wonderful church family with like minded people and we all enjoy hanging out together as families and have recently started an after school Bible study/fellowship time for all the kids. The moms like the fellowship time as well. :) I don't place a higher priority on schooling then I do on a relationship with Jesus. I ticked my family off recently when they found out that if my daughters found a godly young man who wanted to marry them and start a family before they finished college I would not discourage them. Same for my sons with wives if they could provide for a family. I'm a big Voddie Baucham fan and my family can't stand him. My three girls are farther behind in school then I'm happy with BUT thats because of learning delays and emotional issues. It's not because I don't believe in giving them a proper education. I'm working hard to get them to a place where if they chose college they will not have to struggle too much.

I'm sure there is more my family has picked at me about, but those are some of the big things. I say all that to say this, my family sees me as cultish, controlling, and overbearing. They believe we've been brainwashed and we've been called out on it before. It's mostly because I don't live to their standard. When I saw that all these people I'd grown up going to church with had just completely left the faith (even to the point one of my cousins married an atheist, who I love by the way! LOL) but I'm the one who is ridiculed because I don't send my kids to youth group or let them date. No one acknowledges that we have family worship or that my kids are loving our new church. That my kids are healthy and happy and secure. It's only about what we don't let them do.

It hurts that they only come after me to criticize our choices and never to say, "Hey, good job teaching your kids the Bible and passing on your faith. I'm so glad that your kids love church and Jesus." They do, they really do! If we miss our family prayer time they complain. They don't complain that we don't go to youth group.. .they do complain if we miss after school BIble study. No one seems to notice that my kids will sit at lunch sometimes and discuss the sermon our preacher gave the Sunday before, they only notice that we don't have a kids program.

I'm really not saying all that to brag or sound holier than thou but being *that* family to my family has given me a whole new insight into this matter. I'm sure some people abuse it, but people can find a way to use anything to be abusive. The most abusive people in our family don't even go to church or read much of anything.

I still read some of the "fundie" stuff out there and glean a lot from it. I also use common sense and know what won't work for my family. My husband is very steady and a great spiritual leader. He can spot a fraud from miles and miles away. I trust him.

Oh and for the record my family has pushed us to the point that my kids aren't allowed to be alone with them, because I am afraid they will be grilled about life at our home and thats not fair to any child. I have a few people pleasers and I also have family that have ears to hear only what they want to hear. I can't let those two things collide. Not because I'm afraid of what my kids would say but because I'm afraid they would be made to feel like we are doing it "all wrong" and it would give my family fodder for gossip that is untrue and hurtful. It's happened before. They are not the "safe" people for my kids.

 

 

 

I think the difference is that you ARE using critical thinking to choose what makes sense and doesn't and not blindly following a fallible person.

[Janie Grace]

I think the difference is that you ARE using critical thinking to choose what makes sense and doesn't and not blindly following a fallible person.

 

Exactly. You have thought through different issues and come to conclusions about various things. Those conclusions may differ from mine or your neighbor's or your relatives'. But the point is, you have gone through a process of sifting ideas, internalizing some and rejecting others, as you find your way as a family. The family I'm worried about came across the teachings of this one man in their search for godly homeschool supplies and after reading his materials, decided that everything he says is true.

[happyhomemaker25]

 

 

Exactly. You have thought through different issues and come to conclusions about various things. Those conclusions may differ from mine or your neighbor's of your relatives'. But the point is, you have gone through a process of sifting ideas, internalizing some and rejecting others, as you find your way as a family. The family I'm worried about came across the teachings of this one man in their search for godly homeschool supplies and after reading his materials, decided that everything he says is true.

 

Thank you for seeing that, but the thing is my family does not. They feel we are smothering our children and leading them to rebellion. They refuse to see that we are just trying something different.

[LucyStoner]

 

Thank you.

 

It's ridiculous how quick people are to cry "ABUSE!!!!!!" for everything.

 

Discussing abuse or using examples of abuse is not "crying abuse". It's ridiculous how some people minimize the devastating impact that some of these teachings have had and continue to have.

[HS Mom in NC]

In general:

 

Let's remember that some people see circumcision as obedience to God, some are neutral on it, and some consider it physical abuse. Some people assume co-sleeping is used for sexual abuse, some are neutral on it, some see it as the right way to treat a child as opposed to putting a child in a cage (crib) in solitary confinement (another room by him/herself.) Some people think it's risky to deliver a normal pregnancy at home with a trained midwife, some are neutral and others consider it risky to deliver a normal pregnancy in a hospital with typical obstetrical practices. Some consider all spanking abuse and others are neutral while some consider it emotionally abusive to not enforce with physical discipline. Some think it's grossly irresponsible to deny a child a real education by certified professionals with approved curriculum while others are neutral and some consider it neglectful to give a child a typical public school education.

 

Get where I'm going with this?

 

If you want to live in a free society where your right to decide how to raise your children, you'll have to man up and suck it up when other people decide to exercise their rights by making decisions that you consider bad or wrong. You can't have it both ways and retain any credibility unless laws are being broken.

 

Specifically:

 

There are abuse laws in place criminalizing certain choices, decisions and behaviors. These are generally good and the only means you have to take legal action.

 

1. Feel free to share you point of view on these issues and try to persuade them to doing something different. It's worth a shot.

2. Look at your state government's website about child abuse: how it's defined, how to report it. If they're breaking the law, then it's actionable. Be prepared to follow through with doing what is legally required to handle this situation.

3. If you're a Christian then pray diligently and fast about the situation.

[Coffeetime]

Yeah, I guess it is not abusive if it doesn't rise to the level of false imprisonment and permanent mutilation?!

 

It is not a stretch to see that physical and sexual abuse is often present in patriarchal households where physical punishment is seen as a religious imperative. My mother was gravely abused by her mother (to the point of physical disability) and she went to her grave still, 50+ years later, seeking her mother's love and approval. You don't need to physically block something if your child is broken and will do everything to maintain your affection. And people can be abused emotionally, spiritually and verbally.

 

 

The bolded-- it's also important to understand that these types of patriarchal cults actually can attract abusive people. Because you do NOT question your authority and your parents hold god-like control over your life, it can foster abuse very, very easily. (And there are many, many stories of abuse.)

[Murphy101]

The bolded-- it's also important to understand that these types of patriarchal cults actually can attract abusive people. Because you do NOT question your authority and your parents hold god-like control over your life, it can foster abuse very, very easily. (And there are many, many stories of abuse.)

 

Remove the word patriarchal and I can agree with that. As I wrote previously, I think people who actually abuse in acts such as beating children and sex with their children are going to be attracted to anything that gives them that freedom. (this is generally true of ANY kind of abuse. Pedos seeking childcare type jobs for example does not mean that childcare paradigms that encourage cuddling and homey type relaxed atmospheres are to blame for those who use that opportunity to pervert what cuddling and a family relaxed environment is supposed to be)

 

I don't think this is a patriarchal problem per se. I have met many of these types of groups. And in many cases one of the major complaints of the women is that the men don't want to buy into the patriarchy crap. It's not all that uncommon for the driving force of this in many families is coming from the matriarch, not her husband. It's exceedingly impolite to say so like that and women who voice complaints are often told they need to pray for their husband to come around to agreeing with them. Get to know some of these groups and couples intimately and you will see this problem crop up frequently. The women are told they are the spiritual well their dh draws from and need to help him be the patriarch of the family. And this is on boards where ONLY Christian women are advising each other. There is no man on the board saying this. It's women pushing other women to push their husbands into what some believe is a proper patriarchal "spiritual leader of the home" - which is highly ironic to me in a way.

[Jane Elliot]

Exactly! I've seen this over and over and over for the past twenty years, but I've never heard anyone verbalize it publicly. This is precisely what goes on.

[SKL]

 

I blame him because he runs the cult.

 

 

But let's all blame the victims. Great.

 

Which victims are you talking about? How do you define "victim"? Did someone commit a crime against said victims whom you say I'm blaming?

[LucyStoner]

Martha raises a valid point about some women foisting this onto their husbands. I do agree that I know women who are the instigators in getting involved with this sort of extreme interpretation of what it means to be a faithful Christian. I too have heard of and seen families where it was the woman that seemed to be almost forcing it on her husband (the irony!)

 

Patriarchy is not something perpetuated only by men and it is not something that hurts only women. Men are profoundly hurt by the rigid demands of patriarchy and rightfully many reject it. By patriarchy I am referring to something that goes far beyond traditional and often perfectly healthy gender roles or the concept of a male head of household.

 

 

[Lindi]

Be there when and if their world comes tumbling down. Especially if you are a believer. Also, continue to live a grace-filled life before them. When they see your family blessed and happy and successful, it "may" make them question deep inside why they have made it such a legalistic thing. I stood on the edge of that precipice years ago when I first started homeschooling - surrounded by people who were more legalistic than I. I often wondered if I was the one missing something - they looked so dedicated from the outside. And I'm not saying they were not dedicated ... but they were also caught up in legalism - and a wrong picture of God and His grace. Their lives involved fear. As time has passed, I've realized how blessed I was that I didn't jump in -- even though I still love and associate with some of those people. I also have a niece who has swallowed it hook, line and sinker and I am praying for her. Because - the stories of the fallout are real. Hugs.

[SarahW]

 

Thank you -- this was SO helpful. I really appreciate your perspective as someone who was raised in this. I think we are too edgy for them to fee truly safe around us -- except that we're really familiar. We're okay with secular schools, secular music, wearing pants, college for girls, etc. I sometimes wonder if they would ever let their kids be with us apart from their oversight... it makes me sad that we probably aren't approved companions (though they are very welcoming of us into THEIR home). I can do better on this count though. I can emphasize my approval of God's leading in their lives, pointing out the "pros" of their choices. I can wear skirts at their house. That kind of thing. I do want to stay in their lives and for them to know we're here if they ever need us.

 

I don't think you need to change who you are. If you sometimes wear skirts, then it's fine to wear them when you go visit. But if you hate wearing them, then don't. Salvation is not in skirt-wearing or pant-wearing.

 

Join in as you can, and talk. For example, are there older girls taking care of a baby? Pitch in and help and talk about your own experiences with babies. Say things like "hey, did you know scientists figured out that babies understand words before they can speak them? If you teach babies some sign language, they can talk that way!" That's a silly example, but basically, even if you disagree with something like the teen girls taking care of the infants all day, you can still talk to them about taking care of infants and invite them to think of what we can learn about it. Unless there are many other ATI families around, that life can be a very lonely one.

[SarahW]

Which victims are you talking about? How do you define "victim"? Did someone commit a crime against said victims whom you say I'm blaming?

 

It's a cult.

 

I don't feel like airing my family's dirty secrets here, nor do I think it would be appropriate to do so.

[Susan in TN]

OP, it may help to know that I have relatives who were heavily into Gothard/ATI for many many years. No abuse that I know of, but the kids are now grown and on their own and except for a short estrangement from the mom and dad when one of the kids was married, they all seem to be doing well. The dd has a law degree and works at their state capital. I'm not sure, but I think they gradually moved away from that group and found a church that emphasized grace. My only advice is to love them and keep in relationship as much as you can. Grace trumps works.

[unfrumpable.]

 

Which victims are you talking about? How do you define "victim"? Did someone commit a crime against said victims whom you say I'm blaming?

 

 

One doesn't need to have a crime committed against them to be a victim.

[unfrumpable.]

Victim

[Joanne]

I believe that patriarchy, by definition, is abusive (from the controlling and power perspective).

 

The *parenting* and *discipline* and pedagogy involved in Gothard/Fundie/Pearl types is abuse. It's not theologically, human developmentally, or parenting theory supported.

 

Limiting access (as mentioned in the OP) to allopathic medicine, career options, heavily gender scripted role identity, micro managing dress, style, and creating a culture that disallows college throughout the childhood is educational, developmental, and medical neglect.

 

The abuse dynamic is in play; by the time these indoctinated kids get to chronological adulthood, they don't have access to the "choices" that other children/early adults do.

 

It is ALSO spiritual abuse.

 

When I see others limit abuse to physical and what *they* consider egregious, I cringe. I lost my soul, faith, and quality of life under that kind of paradigm.

 

Under our current US/Western culture, these parents are free to parent that way and be within laws. They can believe and behave as they do. And I can respond here, in writing, and in person, and clinically when needed and asked to the wreckage.

[Free]

I believe that patriarchy, by definition, is abusive (from the controlling and power perspective).

 

 

Yes. Thank you.

 

The *parenting* and *discipline* and pedagogy involved in Gothard/Fundie/Pearl types is abuse.

 

 

Limiting access (as mentioned in the OP) to allopathic medicine, career options, heavily gender scripted role identity, micro managing dress, style, and creating a culture that disallows college throughout the childhood is educational, developmental, and medical neglect.

 

 

...is also abuse.

 

The abuse dynamic is in play; by the time these indoctinated kids get to chronological adulthood, they don't have access to the "choices" that other children/early adults do.

 

It is ALSO spiritual abuse.

 

When I see others limit abuse to physical and what *they* consider egregious, I cringe. I lost my soul, faith, and quality of life under that kind of paradigm.

 

 

It is abuse. It is abuse. It is abuse.

[Free]

It hurt my heart to read this thread, but I have now. I get the impression that many people commenting here have little to no understanding of what emotional and psychological abuse looks like.

 

You really don't need to throw acid on people to bully them into submission.

 

People can be emotionally manipulated into hurting their children - not because they are evil and were anyways looking for an excuse to spank their infants but because when one is vulnerable, insecure and afraid one can be led into making very poor choices.

 

And yes, abuse can sometimes leave no visible scratches or bruises on the outside, but deep scars on the inside.

[Slartibartfast]

But they are not being forcibly prevented from attending college as adults. No one is locking them in houses or throwing acid on them if they do choose to attend college. Being discouraged from attending college, or risking losing family ties by attending college, is very different from physically being barred from seeking a higher education.

 

As far as not being adequately prepared for college MANY young adults are in the same boat for a variety of reasons and there are countless resources for them to remediate their education.

 

 

 

How is risking family ties any better than physically preventing someone from attending college? How is that not abusive?

[Slartibartfast]

I think it short sighted and foolish, but that's not illegal or abusive either.

 

To call those things abusive undermines what real abuse is imnsho.

 

 

 

There is more than one type of abuse, all are harmful.

 

To give something the label of abuse does not diminish those that suffer physical abuse in any way.

[bolt.]

I have deep concern for any family that is moving towards a stong adherence to Gothard/ATI. I don't mean "concerns" (ideas I find bothersome, wrong or personally repulsive) -- I mean "concern" -- the emotion of feeling protective and and worried about the personal suffering people in that situation may go through.

 

I have a "heart for" people who find themselves enmeshed with such paradigms and their "leaders"... So, I'm with those who say to you that you have strength in the situation through relationship, encouragement, compassion, affirmation -- not confrontation and alienation.

 

If it does come to a point where "escape" is warranted, you want to be a near-and-viable option. On the other hand, many good families do not descend to the kinds of things you read in escape blogs. The effects are more subtle -- and can be counter acted more subtlety. Try to be the person that proves, in real life, "It is possible to be a good person in faith and family without buying all the assertions of the hyper-conservative paradigm.

 

When someone says, "No marriage can thrive or be healthy/happy without one real leader doing his job." -- There are no stronger arguments than, "Hey, but I actually know someone with a long-term working marriage in the teamwork style. She's my sister, and she's not lying... What else is wrong with some of these bald assumptions and assertions?"

 

Similar with, "If a woman wears slacks, she does not look feminine." -- oh wait, I find a woman in slacks quite feminine, like my aunt... Who can imagine a man wearing women's slacks?

[JenniferB]

I used to attend a church who had some adherents to ATI/Pearls. I fell mildly into the thinking for several years. I never attended a conference nor read the big red book. I did however take Growing Kids God's Way seriously and I read some Pearl books.

 

I came out of that thinking when I noticed that wives seemed to admire other women's husbands who were leaders in these movements more than their own husbands. Ironically, it was reading Debbie Pearl's book and gaining a greater level of respect and admiration for my own husband that helped me out of that thinking and ultimately out of that whole crowd. My husband never bought into the ATI thing nor the Pearls but we both got into GKGW.

 

Some ideas on positively influencing the situation drawing off of what I remember it felt like to be in that thinking:

 

One on one time with your sister in law & becoming her sincere bosom friend (it's a lonely existence - relationships within ATI/Pearl are competitive and comparitave - the desire for real relationship is huge - the loneliness immense). When you spend time together be nonjudgmental in general toward her and just in general. She might be attracted to you and your ideas/influence if she sees a truly nonjudgmental person in contrast to the judgmental influences in her group. (For me a few nonjudgmental people helped me to open my eyes. It was so refreshing to me.)

 

Use questions rather than statements and sincere questions: "Have you ever wondered if any of your kids would fall away?"..."How would you handle that?" This would give you a peek into how deep/committed they are - are they willing to forsake all reason and stick to Gothard or do they have maneuverability? This also might help her to start questioning in her inner dialogue.

 

Show some interest in their ways. There is a tendency to take on disciples in those circles and you can use this as an opportunity to encourage questioning and critical thinking to kick in. (I believe the deeper you are in these things the more automatic thinking and less critical thinking takes place.) You could read a book of theirs - take your time - pose thought provoking questions as you read..."If God is love how can this suggestion in this book be godly?" Point out things in the book you agree with. Ask questions about flawed logic.

 

If it seems natural you could tell a story about something you read on No Longer Quivering. But it could push her away - you'll have to make sure she's ready to hear it.

 

The things that influenced me out of that thinking were: reading stories from disgruntled quivering family members, noticing the way the wives admired other women's husbands, noticing the hype associated with seminars, conferences and programs but not noticing any real healthy benefit to them, thinking about lots of things Jesus said and how he acted toward people and noticing that they seemed off compared to Jesus represented in the Gospels, and reading this blog (can't remember the name) where the author talked about the Gnostic and Platonic thinking engrained in modern evangelical Christianity.

 

Hope this or something else helps. Lord have mercy on us all.