Another "early" question- Algebra in 3rd grade??

[lewelma]

I don't know as much about the NZ system of higher education, but isn't it more similar to the UK system where students enter with a declared major and take courses only towards that? I believe that the mathematics courses in such a system usually are significantly more theoretical and proof-oriented than the ones in the US, where at most universities (especially community colleges and smaller state colleges) students with multiple goals (med school, engineering, physics, geology, math) all take the same calculus I class.

 

definitely more like the UK system. So I hope you are right!

 

Were you thinking of him going to Victoria? Or somewhere else in NZ? Or out of NZ? If the first you could look at him sitting in on some stuff now and maybe getting to know a bit about the professors. That may allow him to skip some early stuff (he will probably be ready for 3rd year). Otherwise he may have to go through first year which will be repeats for him with A+ grades and then they will talk to him.

 

I just don't know. I need to do the research. Thanks for the ideas, though.

[kiwik]

 

 

This is eye opening and really disheartening. I've been thinking that all I need to do is get him to University, and all will be well. sigh.

 

 

Were you thinking of him going to Victoria? Or somewhere else in NZ? Or out of NZ? If the first you could look at him sitting in on some stuff now and maybe getting to know a bit about the professors. That may allow him to skip some early stuff (he will probably be ready for 3rd year). Otherwise he may have to go through first year which will be repeats for him with A+ grades and then they will talk to him.

[4KookieKids]

As far as the CC----our experience with multiple CCs over the yrs is that the classes are not taught on a very challenging level and the students in the classes have not been engaged in serious learning or have needed a lot of repetition of explanations. Not that all students fit that description, but enough that my kids complain a lot about it.....far more than in their university classes.

 

 

Can I ask what sort of classes you had this experience with? From what I've seen, the repetition is pretty standard in most of the entry level courses -- so in math, that would be stuff like algebra, trig, pre-calc, and even calc 1 and 2, to a degree, but I would guess the first 5 or 6 classes (depending on where you start, of course) -- are like this. Unfortunately, that's been true whether they were CC or 4 year or uni's, though it was much less true of the calculus courses at some of the larger uni's. It's just an unfortunate part of the current system, where the post secondary education system is getting students who, quite frankly, are not prepared for it. I know I found it especially painful as an undergrad, and I usually just brought other homework to work on quietly in the back of class during those classes because I could never quite bring myself to ditch. :) So they have my sympathy!

 

I found my CC to be better at this, and not quite so repetitive, but I'd guess that's only because I took Calc 3 there (rather than something earlier), and I also took it as a condensed summer course (so there just wasn't time to repeat as much).

 

On the other side of this, I've been super frustrated teaching classes like trig and pre-calc at my uni, because the students want (and some of them need) so much repetition! Often, the core problem is that they can't learn the material I'm presenting because their previous foundation (in algebra, for instance) is just too weak. But I always feel bad for the few students in my class who "get it" and are bored, because I've been there, and it stinks.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

Can I ask what sort of classes you had this experience with? From what I've seen, the repetition is pretty standard in most of the entry level courses -- so in math, that would be stuff like algebra, trig, pre-calc, and even calc 1 and 2, to a degree, but I would guess the first 5 or 6 classes (depending on where you start, of course) -- are like this. Unfortunately, that's been true whether they were CC or 4 year or uni's, though it was much less true of the calculus courses at some of the larger uni's. It's just an unfortunate part of the current system, where the post secondary education system is getting students who, quite frankly, are not prepared for it. I know I found it especially painful as an undergrad, and I usually just brought other homework to work on quietly in the back of class during those classes because I could never quite bring myself to ditch. :) So they have my sympathy!

 

I found my CC to be better at this, and not quite so repetitive, but I'd guess that's only because I took Calc 3 there (rather than something earlier), and I also took it as a condensed summer course (so there just wasn't time to repeat as much).

 

On the other side of this, I've been super frustrated teaching classes like trig and pre-calc at my uni, because the students want (and some of them need) so much repetition! Often, the core problem is that they can't learn the material I'm presenting because their previous foundation (in algebra, for instance) is just too weak. But I always feel bad for the few students in my class who "get it" and are bored, because I've been there, and it stinks.

 

Well, I have never had a child take math at a CC, so my comparison is to other classes. (Since my kids that have needed math pursued (or want to pursue) engineering and physics, we opted for dual enrollment at universities over CCs based on our experience with the CCs in general.

 

Classes they have taken (ETA: not all of these have been taken as dual enrollment. 2 of my kids have taken classes after high school) that have been poor quality are English comp, speech, US history, chemistry, psychology. One that was ok--econ (actually 2 different econ classes. One took macro, the other took micro.) The only class that has been a really good class that was really on par with a university course was an art history class. That teacher was serious about her subject matter and did an awesome job. (That was one CC class that one of my kids actually had to put effort into.)

 

ETA: Are you familiar with AoPS? I wasn't sure b/c you reference low level math at CCs in your post. If you aren't familiar with AoPS, you might want to spend some time digging around their website. Very interesting courses that are not traditional in approach and are very theory oriented. http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/index.php?

[Meriwether]

This has been interesting. Dd9 will be doing Pre-Algebra next year. Math isn't really her thing, but she started at 4. We just do the next thing. We'll probably be one of those families that spends extra time on Pre-Algebra and Algebra. I'm in no rush.

.

[lewelma]

But I still think mathematical understanding can be cultivated by using developmentally appropriate (but challenging) means in younger kids, rather than simply waiting for them to mature to the point where they can (hopefully) use challenging courses designed for older kids.

This is so nicely put, Bill. My younger ds(9) has finished basic computation with SM but is not ready for AoPS, so I have been in a bit of a quandary as to what to do. I could use MUS Algebra now (I have seen it and he can handle it) and then switch to AoPS later, but then he looses the discovery method and its benefits. Or I could use AoPS preA now but do some MAJOR hand holding, but I am concerned that this will give him the wrong impression of what AoPS can be - independently used by a student. So I am looking for a way to develop his mathematical understanding rather than just waiting for him to mature, like you said. I am really interested in Mathematics: a Human Endeavor by Jacobs to fill this gap. Have you seen it? It is full of investigations, which I think will be good training for AoPS. And it covers some very unexpected topics like number theory, graph theory, combinatorics,inductive/deductive reasoning, probablity etc, but it does so in a way which is so much more accessible than AoPS preA. I don't want to put my ds in a holding pattern and he *wants* to learn new material - just not *more* computations. He is just sick of it. So I think I will be doing with my younger what you have suggested -- developing mathematical understanding without hurrying into algebra.

 

Ruth in NZ

[8filltheheart]

Wendy,

 

AoPS has a LaTex guide: http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Wiki/index.php/LaTeX:About

[kiana]

 

Thank you!

 

Looking at that makes me want to scream, but I think DS would totally take to that. I'd rather do things on paper, but I'm rather old fashioned that way.

 

I'll show it to him.

 

You get used to it REALLY quickly. I had to learn it for typing my dissertation and there are so many good points about it.

 

For one thing, when you need to use the same equation in multiple places you can just copy and paste. When you realize that one line doesn't make sense and needs to be changed you don't have to copy the whole thing again. et cetera.

[Dana]

I found my CC to be better at this, and not quite so repetitive, but I'd guess that's only because I took Calc 3 there (rather than something earlier), and I also took it as a condensed summer course (so there just wasn't time to repeat as much).

 

On the other side of this, I've been super frustrated teaching classes like trig and pre-calc at my uni, because the students want (and some of them need) so much repetition! Often, the core problem is that they can't learn the material I'm presenting because their previous foundation (in algebra, for instance) is just too weak. But I always feel bad for the few students in my class who "get it" and are bored, because I've been there, and it stinks.

 

If you're doing calc 3 at the cc, that's a very different experience than any of the prior classes.

cc's also vary in strength around the country.

 

I'm teaching a prealgebra course at the cc this semester. I test tomorrow. Of the 13 students still enrolled, only 6 have taken the quiz (practice test) that's due by midnight tonight. Average grade is 55.6, median 65.3. The lowest passing grade is a 75...anything below that is an F.

 

The calc 1 class that a friend is teaching only has about 5 or 6 students in it as I walk past the room.

 

Believe me, I understand the frustration you're experiencing at the uni.

Trust me... it's far worse at the cc in the lower levels... and even in the courses like college algebra.

 

From your earlier post, yes, a student at a good cc can get a teacher who cares about teaching rather than a grad student possibly teaching for the first time or a professor who needs to be publishing... but they're also with a set of students that typically is at a lower level than corresponding university students (even at the higher classes). Unfortunately, the cc's do also have their share of poor teachers. There's one at ours that I try to steer students away from... he lets class out or cancels it regularly, gives take home tests, and students from his class are woefully (personally, criminally) unprepared for later classes. I don't know why the cc hasn't done anything about him. And his RMP evals are excellent... so I hate seeing people recommend RMP for picking instructors.

[4KookieKids]

 

Believe me, I understand the frustration you're experiencing at the uni.

Trust me... it's far worse at the cc in the lower levels... and even in the courses like college algebra.

 

From your earlier post, yes, a student at a good cc can get a teacher who cares about teaching rather than a grad student possibly teaching for the first time or a professor who needs to be publishing... but they're also with a set of students that typically is at a lower level than corresponding university students (even at the higher classes). Unfortunately, the cc's do also have their share of poor teachers.

 

That's unfortunate to hear. I knew the earlier classes were full of repetition and poor passing rates, but it always seemed comparable to me to what I've seen at uni (for the same level of course, that is). I guess I've just been lucky with my CC experiences and what I've heard in my circle of acquaintances. Or maybe I've just been lucky to be around fairly quality CCs. :)

[4KookieKids]

ETA: Are you familiar with AoPS? I wasn't sure b/c you reference low level math at CCs in your post. If you aren't familiar with AoPS, you might want to spend some time digging around their website. Very interesting courses that are not traditional in approach and are very theory oriented. http://www.artofprob...tore/index.php?

 

I don't know much about it, so I'll check it out. Thanks! I'm pretty new to the board/forum, and my kids are still young. So, while I've been doing math for a while, I confess I don't even know most of the abbreviations used here without googling them. :)

[kiana]

From your earlier post, yes, a student at a good cc can get a teacher who cares about teaching rather than a grad student possibly teaching for the first time or a professor who needs to be publishing... but they're also with a set of students that typically is at a lower level than corresponding university students (even at the higher classes). Unfortunately, the cc's do also have their share of poor teachers. There's one at ours that I try to steer students away from... he lets class out or cancels it regularly, gives take home tests, and students from his class are woefully (personally, criminally) unprepared for later classes. I don't know why the cc hasn't done anything about him. And his RMP evals are excellent... so I hate seeing people recommend RMP for picking instructors.

 

 

This is one reason the comments are SOO much more important than the numbers. If I saw a comment with anything like 'easiest prof ever!' I knew that would be a bad match for me.

[4KookieKids]

That's unfortunate to hear. I knew the earlier classes were full of repetition and poor passing rates, but it always seemed comparable to me to what I've seen at uni (for the same level of course, that is).

 

 

I should clarify, because I realize it may sound like I'm coming down really hard on universities: I really love my uni. I feel like the faculty do genuinely care about students, rather than just their research, and that the department genuinely encourages and supports excellent teaching by their graduate students too. I've just seen a lot of schools where this was very much not the case, as well.

[4KookieKids]

And his RMP evals are excellent... so I hate seeing people recommend RMP for picking instructors.

 

 

This made me laugh (in a "too true" sort of way), just because, even after teaching for years, I'm still generally disappointed when my "numbers" on my evals aren't super high. I get really great comments about my teaching, but my numbers always run lower than I'd like, and I know that that's what's being "tracked" (because you can't really "track" comments, of course).

[mathmarm]

Maybe I will feel differently when Jr. comes and starts growing, hopefully I will not.

I fail to see what is so mysterious to many parents about 'Algebra' I think we in the US demonize and ostracize Algebra as hard. We have placed it on this pedestal and such where it doesn't belong. Look at it as an abstraction of Arithmetic, a puzzle, a game. Its really just the logical next step.

 

If your kid has number sense and the will to learn and a great guide, then there is no reason to postpone Algebra until after arithmetic, fractions, decimals, percents, basic geometry, statistics, probability and alll the other topics that we typically stuff a K-8 math scope with, have been 'mastered'.

 

I was taught math by my parents at home even though I went to PS and I learned Algebra and Arithmetic almost simultaneously. I learned graphing and the Fundamental Theorems of Arithmetic, Algebra and Calculus by the time that I was about 10. It wasn't hard. I'm not special. My parents took extra time to explain things and show me and it just makes sense they way we do it in my family.

 

I fully intend to do the same thing with my kids.

[regentrude]

And his RMP evals are excellent... so I hate seeing people recommend RMP for picking instructors.

 

 

Yes. I teach 200 students per year and get maybe one RMP comment per year.

An RMP response rate of less than half a percent of my total students means absolutely nothing.

[Katy]

I was pretty accelerated in school but I'm not sure I'm particularly gifted. I think with the right environment almost every young child who is not developmentally delayed can learn much more than most people give them credit for. I'm sure in my case my acceleration was because of an older cousin who loved to "play school" with me every day when she came home from school. My aunt babysat me, and when my cousin came home she'd sit at the dining room table, show me what she was learning, give me a play "assignment" and we'd work together. Then at age 4 I was put into a private kindergarten where they taught us second and third grade math as part of the normal curriculum - I can remember doing multiplication, skip counting, and counting back change at a school assembly when I had been attending for only a few weeks. I think I was only in that school for a few months before it closed, but just those few months meant that my class was extremely accelerated when we entered public school a few months later. They determined that everyone that had been in our private kindergarten class had surpassed at least the second grade level when we were entering kindergarten, and some of us were at a 5th grade level at 5 years old. They opted to keep us with our age group peers and simply pull us out for a GT program. The experience convinced me kids are much more capable than people think they are, without pushing them.

 

Almost all elementary school mathematics are an extension of learning your facts well. If you have all your addition, subtraction, multiplication and division facts down you can easily start with 3rd or 4th grade math, depending on the curriculum. Because of the way the brain works, it's easier for kids to memorize facts when they are very young - the same way it's easier to learn languages when very young. Once they've figured out counting, a preschooler can learn math facts easier than an 8 or 10 year old. If you learn all your math facts by the age of six, start at 3rd or 4th grade math, and just keep working through, mostly year round without any breaks of longer than a few weeks, your kids are naturally going to get through 1.5-2 years of math per year, and that's assuming they don't need extra acceleration or do 3-4 lessons per day just because they enjoy them.

 

If at age 6 instead of first grade math they are doing 3rd & 4th grade math, at age 7 they will be doing 5th and 6th grade math. At age 8, 7th grade and prealgebra, which will lead to algebra at age 9. Some kids faster, some kids slower.

 

If you keep children challenged from a young age they are likely going to be doing college level work by the time they are high school age if not before. There is just that much time lost in review and testing and distractions and breaks in schools for them to not accelerate that way. As long as they learn every lesson to mastery and are doing the work so they don't end up with a swiss cheese education, they'll probably have better comprehension than most kids in traditional schools.

 

ETA: As for what to do with them after they've run through high school math I went to college early and I don't reccomend it. I was a fairly sheltered kid compared to the others there (by my own design I was more interested in academic things than in partying) and socially I wasn't ready for the partying atmosphere. We'll probably work through at least linear algebra at home - luckily DH was a math tutor in college so we've got that working for us. Then it will probably depend on where we live - if within commutting distance from a decent university we'll opt for them to live at home and either take classes in person or online. If that's not realistic we'll reach as deep and wide as possible and use lots of open courseware, coursera, edX, etc.

[Spy Car]

 

This is so nicely put, Bill. My younger ds(9) has finished basic computation with SM but is not ready for AoPS, so I have been in a bit of a quandary as to what to do. I could use MUS Algebra now (I have seen it and he can handle it) and then switch to AoPS later, but then he looses the discovery method and its benefits. Or I could use AoPS preA now but do some MAJOR hand holding, but I am concerned that this will give him the wrong impression of what AoPS can be - independently used by a student. So I am looking for a way to develop his mathematical understanding rather than just waiting for him to mature, like you said. I am really interested in Mathematics: a Human Endeavor by Jacobs to fill this gap. Have you seen it? It is full of investigations, which I think will be good training for AoPS. And it covers some very unexpected topics like number theory, graph theory, combinatorics,inductive/deductive reasoning, probablity etc, but it does so in a way which is so much more accessible than AoPS preA. I don't want to put my ds in a holding pattern and he *wants* to learn new material - just not *more* computations. He is just sick of it. So I think I will be doing with my younger what you have suggested -- developing mathematical understanding without hurrying into algebra.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Ruth, I'm more "aware" of Jacobs' Human Endeavor than familiar on a first-hand user level. It does seem intriguing and has been recommended on this forum by trusted sources.

 

You are ahead of us, but I can think of a couple more resources you might like.

 

Did you see the thread I made a few moths back linking to the (free to download)) math program from Phillips Exeter? All discovery oriented with no answer key (that I'm aware). Not good for everyone, but for you I'd think yes. It gets hard fast, but I was able glean some work for my 8 year old from Mathematics 1, and I'm sure you could glean much more.

 

Also free to download are all the old "School Mathematics Study Group" materials. The SMSG produced the very best of the New Math programs from the 1960s. While New Math was often lampooned as a movement, it is a revelation to look at these materials and see how strong they really are mathematically. All of it, teacher's materials, student texts, is archived online for download in a couple places. We glean from these as a "diversion."

 

Then there is Mathematics 6 (Russian) from Perpendicular Press. I've not used it, and have been waiting for a re-printing of the book, but after corresponding with the translator/publisher it seems the e-version will be all that exists going forward. But that might work for you with shipping factored in.

 

I will say that we've dipped our toe into the AoPS Pre-Agebra pool in a buddy approach (in addition to working through it myself) and I'm not so sure that—if one has the time—that the standard advice that it needs to be done "independently" is the only way to go.

 

We've done the rest of our math adventure together, with me being mindful to know when to step back and promote "discovery," when to engage in Socratic dialogue, and when to provide direct instruction.

 

That the AoPS method is heavy on the discovery aspect (which we both like) doesn't, to my mind, negate the idea that it could be done together in a sort of partnership, if the parent-partner is conscious of his or her role in the process, and doesn't step on the discovery aspect. But this isn't really much different than we've been doing all along.

 

Of course there is another part of my brain that hopes, in time, my child will reach the stage of maturity where he can use these AoPS books independently, and—frankly—leaves me in the dust. That is the ideal scenario. But if we continue to delve into Pre-Algebra as a "team" (with son taking the lead) I see no problem with such an approach.

 

Bill

[MBM]

My son participates in weekend math courses for junior and high schoolers with Prof Sally -- the Pirate Prof -- at U of Chicago. Sally has written a text that might be good for kids who are ready for more challenging, interesting math but are not quite ready for AoPS. I'm not sure if it would be something a young kid could do, or if it's meant more for an adult who is teaching the material. My guess is that it's geared more toward the latter. My son ordered it and should get his copy today. Might be worth a look.

 

http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top

 

Sally's wife, also taught math at college, has some texts that might be worth checking out, too.

 

ETA: Just got the book. It is definitely NOT something you'd use before AoPS. It would be used after AoPS. LOL.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This is so nicely put, Bill. My younger ds(9) has finished basic computation with SM but is not ready for AoPS, so I have been in a bit of a quandary as to what to do. I could use MUS Algebra now (I have seen it and he can handle it) and then switch to AoPS later, but then he looses the discovery method and its benefits. Or I could use AoPS preA now but do some MAJOR hand holding, but I am concerned that this will give him the wrong impression of what AoPS can be - independently used by a student. So I am looking for a way to develop his mathematical understanding rather than just waiting for him to mature, like you said. I am really interested in Mathematics: a Human Endeavor by Jacobs to fill this gap. Have you seen it? It is full of investigations, which I think will be good training for AoPS. And it covers some very unexpected topics like number theory, graph theory, combinatorics,inductive/deductive reasoning, probablity etc, but it does so in a way which is so much more accessible than AoPS preA. I don't want to put my ds in a holding pattern and he *wants* to learn new material - just not *more* computations. He is just sick of it. So I think I will be doing with my younger what you have suggested -- developing mathematical understanding without hurrying into algebra.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

Ruth,

I've been using Dolciani Mathematics Structure and Methodas a bridge between arithmetic and algebra. I was even able to get a teacher edition (which contains answers and nice points to cover in teaching each lesson as well as three suggested tracks for doing the book (minimum, average, maximum).

 

My youngest also liked doing lessons from the CSMP math seriesand another "new math" series. Don't dwell on the set theory (which was included in younger grades in provide parallel structure to the later years, but wasn't supposed to be the backbone of the curriculum (at least according to what I've read)).

 

ETA: It took me a while to find the other program we'd dabbled with. It was SMSG and I found the materials here. The elementary level books (ie, before algebra) are part way down the page. My understanding is that the upper level books were written first, then the elementary books were written as a way to prep students for the higher level materials.

[wapiti]

I will say that we've dipped our toe into the AoPS Pre-Agebra pool in a buddy approach (in addition to working through it myself) and I'm not so sure that—if one has the time—that the standard advice that it needs to be done "independently" is the only way to go.

 

We've done the rest of our math adventure together, with me being mindful to know when to step back and promote "discovery," when to engage in Socratic dialogue, and when to provide direct instruction.

 

Bill, FWIW, a socratic style has worked well for us with the lesson problems. My dd (in 5th) did beginning of the book independently but hit a wall at ch 5, so we finished it more in the style that you describe. Ds10 (in 4th) has also done well with this style and has done a tremendous amount of the work orally due to handwriting issues. Knowing when to loosen the reins and when to tighten up is something I'm sure you'll have no trouble noticing because you are right there. For both of them, the second half of the book seemed easier than the first, though I'm still not sure whether that's a function of their particular learning styles (more spatial than sequential), whether the second half is actually easier, or whether they gained some combination of experience/maturity/intellectual development over the course of the book. I suppose it was probably all of the above.

 

My other ds10 started recently and is finishing ch 1. I consider the text to be therapy for his raging case of underachieving perfectionism. Ch 2 will be a rude awakening for him (what, I actually have to use my whole brain? for how many minutes?), but we will take it in small bites and increase our bite sizes gradually later on in the book.

[Dana]

 

 

I don't know much about it, so I'll check it out. Thanks! I'm pretty new to the board/forum, and my kids are still young. So, while I've been doing math for a while, I confess I don't even know most of the abbreviations used here without googling them. :)

 

The abbreviation sticky at the top of most forum pages can be VERY helpful :). Saves some google time!

 

And cc quality and uni quality varies widely. I think in many cases, a student gets out what they put in, but I do see a wide difference in general caliber of student at cc and at the local uni. I have had the privilege of teaching some students who are really hard workers and who are overcoming quite a lot, but even when teaching calc, I rarely (almost never) have had a student who just picks up the material. I've had a lot who think they should pass without doing the work though....

[kiana]

The abbreviation sticky at the top of most forum pages can be VERY helpful :). Saves some google time!

 

And cc quality and uni quality varies widely. I think in many cases, a student gets out what they put in, but I do see a wide difference in general caliber of student at cc and at the local uni. I have had the privilege of teaching some students who are really hard workers and who are overcoming quite a lot, but even when teaching calc, I rarely (almost never) have had a student who just picks up the material. I've had a lot who think they should pass without doing the work though....

 

But why are you so meaaaaan?! I studied for a whole three hours and you give me a 40?!

[Dana]

 

 

But why are you so meaaaaan?! I studied for a whole three hours and you give me a 40?!

 

 

My goodness...there have been occasions I'd have been thrilled if a student got a 40. I had one last semester actually take the test and scored a 0.

 

I really like using MyMathLab. I can see how long a student was logged in on an assignment :)

 

And yes, I am mean! :)

 

I do tell students I don't care how they do in my class...I want them to be able to succeed in their NEXT class. Most of the time they drop before they link, but I expect there'll be two or three Fs this semester in my class of 13. And I did have one semester where no one passed my college algebra class. Personally, I loathe dual enrollment as a result of that experience.

 

Sigh.

[Crimson Wife]

Maybe I will feel differently when Jr. comes and starts growing, hopefully I will not.

I fail to see what is so mysterious to many parents about 'Algebra' I think we in the US demonize and ostracize Algebra as hard. We have placed it on this pedestal and such where it doesn't belong. Look at it as an abstraction of Arithmetic, a puzzle, a game. Its really just the logical next step.

 

If your kid has number sense and the will to learn and a great guide, then there is no reason to postpone Algebra until after arithmetic, fractions, decimals, percents, basic geometry, statistics, probability and alll the other topics that we typically stuff a K-8 math scope with, have been 'mastered'.

 

 

The easy parts of algebra I start fairly early on, with things like Hands-on Equations and Zacarro. However, I do think that the student needs a rock-solid foundation of pre-algebra skills before moving on to higher level math. I don't want my kids to be the ones who have completed through pre-calc or calc on paper but then placed into remedial math at college. Unfortunately, this happens a LOT here in the U.S.

 

Think of it like building a house- unless the foundation is solid, the whole thing is going to collapse.

[regentrude]

Most of the time they drop before they link, but I expect there'll be two or three Fs this semester in my class of 13. And I did have one semester where no one passed my college algebra class.

 

Personally, I loathe dual enrollment as a result of that experience.

 

 

Dana, why the bolded? Are these dually enrolled students in your class, or are you referring to the fact that CC classes have these kinds of students and thus would be a horrible environment for a strong high schooler?

[Dana]

 

 

Dana, why the bolded? Are these dually enrolled students in your class, or are you referring to the fact that CC classes have these kinds of students and thus would be a horrible environment for a strong high schooler?

 

 

I think dual enrollment can be good for some kids. I took courses at the cc while in hs.

 

I still see college algebra as a high school course and don't personally think it should be a college course. That semester, I was teaching two college algebra courses in the morning. Kids from the high school came to our campus during school time to take the course. Out of about 25 kids, I think under 5 passed. I had students coming late to class (30 min of a 50 min class), asking me for pencils, and just pulling all kinds of high school crap. They didn't have to take a placement test, they didn't know the quadratic formula, they refused to work.

 

They should have stayed on their own d@mn campus and taken a precalc course taught by a teacher at the high school.

 

I did everything I could think of with that class. It is one of my worst teaching experiences.

We should teach high school at the high schools. The cc or uni should be for courses that are not available at the high school. You want to take a discrete math course, come on over! You want calc and it's not offered? Welcome! You need precalc and have enough students to run a class at the hs? It's a hs level course...teach it there for hs credit! Especially if the students aren't prepared for college level work!

 

This is the course that got me checking placement scores. Some of these students had 430 on SAT math. They should never have been in my class.

[kiana]

Not having to take the placement test is a huge issue.

 

If they couldn't pass the placement test for college algebra, I honestly don't think they should have been in a precalc course at the high school either, but rather a transition course.

[regentrude]

This must ahve been so frustrating.

 

I still see college algebra as a high school course and don't personally think it should be a college course. That semester, I was teaching two college algebra courses in the morning. Kids from the high school came to our campus during school time to take the course. Out of about 25 kids, I think under 5 passed. I had students coming late to class (30 min of a 50 min class), asking me for pencils, and just pulling all kinds of high school crap. They didn't have to take a placement test, they didn't know the quadratic formula, they refused to work.

 

They should have stayed on their own d@mn campus and taken a precalc course taught by a teacher at the high school.

 

 

So who decides that they may take a CC course instead of a high school one? The school? Why does the CC enroll them?

 

 

We should teach high school at the high schools. The cc or uni should be for courses that are not available at the high school. You want to take a discrete math course, come on over! You want calc and it's not offered? Welcome! You need precalc and have enough students to run a class at the hs? It's a hs level course...teach it there for hs credit! Especially if the students aren't prepared for college level work!

 

This is the course that got me checking placement scores. Some of these students had 430 on SAT math. They should never have been in my class.

 

 

Sorry, I am not understanding: you said they did NOT have to take a placement test? Or is the SAT for general admission, but there is no extra placement for math?

[Dana]

This must ahve been so frustrating.

 

So who decides that they may take a CC course instead of a high school one? The school? Why does the CC enroll them?

 

Sorry, I am not understanding: you said they did NOT have to take a placement test? Or is the SAT for general admission, but there is no extra placement for math?

 

 

It was dreadfully frustrating. Prereq course taught quadratic formula. They didn't know it. I taught it and told the I'd quiz them on it next class. First question...state the quadratic formula. Over half couldn't do it. They refused to work.

 

I left that cc. They started sending instructors out to the high school to teach classes. It was miserable.

 

And the SAT wasn't required for admission. Really just a pulse and the ability to get a loan.

The math SAT was for placement. I think over 420 and you could take college algebra. I pushed to require the ASSET for math placement, but I couldn't get that changed.

 

Current cc I work at is much better.

 

You want to know really discouraging...I learned that some students didn't know how many states there were, so I put it as a bonus on the test.

(+ 1) There are ___ states in the United States of America.

In the alg 1 course, about half got it wrong. In calc 1, only 1/7 got it wrong, but she argued with me about the answer.

I didn't do it with that college algebra course, but I imagine it would have been poor.

 

So yeah...there's a potentially huge difference between the students you'll be working with at a cc and at a uni.

[Jane in NC]

I think dual enrollment can be good for some kids. I took courses at the cc while in hs.

 

I still see college algebra as a high school course and don't personally think it should be a college course. That semester, I was teaching two college algebra courses in the morning. Kids from the high school came to our campus during school time to take the course. Out of about 25 kids, I think under 5 passed. I had students coming late to class (30 min of a 50 min class), asking me for pencils, and just pulling all kinds of high school crap. They didn't have to take a placement test, they didn't know the quadratic formula, they refused to work.

 

They should have stayed on their own d@mn campus and taken a precalc course taught by a teacher at the high school.

 

I did everything I could think of with that class. It is one of my worst teaching experiences.

We should teach high school at the high schools. The cc or uni should be for courses that are not available at the high school. You want to take a discrete math course, come on over! You want calc and it's not offered? Welcome! You need precalc and have enough students to run a class at the hs? It's a hs level course...teach it there for hs credit! Especially if the students aren't prepared for college level work!

 

This is the course that got me checking placement scores. Some of these students had 430 on SAT math. They should never have been in my class.

 

 

I find this so odd that students from the brick and mortar would take their math courses at the CC. Who is advising them? Locally we have a guy on campus who is funded by both the CC and the public school system. He is the advisor for all dually enrolled students so he worked with us when my son took classes at the CC. I wanted my son to go the AP Calc route so I never pursued math classes at the CC, but he did have to have certain placement scores to take Chemistry. (They waived the usual placement test and accepted his ACT scores.)

[Dana]

Not having to take the placement test is a huge issue.

 

If they couldn't pass the placement test for college algebra, I honestly don't think they should have been in a precalc course at the high school either, but rather a transition course.

 

 

I absolutely agree!

I think with the dual enrollment issue, we were told that the hs said they could take the course and we weren't allowed to move them to a different course.

That's also part of why I'm anti dual enrollment.

 

I also see a LOT of student straight from high school where alg 1 is the lowest math they can take to graduate and they need three math credits to graduate. They take the placement test and test into algebra 1 or lower. What were they doing for those three years in high school?!?!

 

That is also why I'm very much in favor of exit exams for courses. I don't trust the teachers (but mainly administrators). In our state, students typically can't score below 50 on any assignments, no matter what they do. I've seen this on district websites. When I did my student teaching, it was district policy. The grading scale started at 50. F was 50-69.

 

It's no wonder they think I don't mean what I say in the syllabus and in class.

[regentrude]

So yeah...there's a potentially huge difference between the students you'll be working with at a cc and at a uni.

 

 

It sounds thoroughly unpleasant (and I remember you telling us about the number of states thing before, shudder.)

Your experience is exactly why we are doing dual enrollment at a four year STEM focused university.

[Dana]

I do and have had some great students. I do feel honored to be able to help some of them progress. Some of them are accomplishing tremendous things...especially with obstacles they're overcoming.

 

I expect I'll have my son take some science courses at the cc for the lab experiences.

I'll be careful who he takes though...and which classes.

 

Jane... I've worked with people from NCMATYC. The NC cc system seemed much saner from what I heard than our system :)

[Jane in NC]

I do and have had some great students. I do feel honored to be able to help some of them progress. Some of them are accomplishing tremendous things...especially with obstacles they're overcoming.

 

I expect I'll have my son take some science courses at the cc for the lab experiences.

I'll be careful who he takes though...and which classes.

 

Jane... I've worked with people from NCMATYC. The NC cc system seemed much saner from what I heard than our system :)

 

 

When I taught developmental math, it was a great pleasure to have the occasional student (usually an older adult--not a recent high school grad) who was thrilled to study and learn the math he/she never understood in high school. But the majority of developmental students that I had entered the classroom with attitudes. They were not the problem. Teachers failed them.

 

When my son took dual enrollment courses, we were very selective about instructors. You'll have the inside track for advising him!