Having kids start college at 12??

[wapiti]

There aren't many 12 y.o., even profoundly-gifted ones, who would be capable of a precalc that has significant depth, though certainly they exist, maybe even on this board. However, there are lots of accelerated math students in all walks of schooling - even if we say only the top two percent in ability (which is quite a wide spread in levels, as it turns out), that's an awful lot of kids. A 12 y.o. significantly accelerated in math has abilities that deserve to be developed. IMO, a college requiring only high-school-level math is the same as having no college math requirement. Attending a "college" that has zero math requirement is unlikely to be a fit when it comes to developing depth of intellect in other subjects as well.

 

Allowing exceptional ability to go under-developed through middle and high school (or early but mediocre/"lite" college that stands in for high school, that's not later developed further in another college setting) really limits that child's potential in ways they are far too young to imagine or decide for themselves, not to mention sets the stage for underachievement.

 

I say this as someone who tuned out of math by middle school because it was too easy and boring. I was never exposed to anything approaching true mathematics in school, and now that AoPS has provided the slightest glimpse, I'm angry sometimes about the education that I didn't get (wasn't made to get?). This is in spite of having taken AP Calc and more calc at a selective college. Why did I have to learn how to think - a somewhat painful process in my mid- to late-20s - in grad school? Why was I able to slide by easily until then, and how much learning did I miss along the way?

 

I feel like several ideas are getting conflated in this discussion, such as true college enrollment vs dual enrollment and acceleration of average vs high-ability students, even here in my own posts, as I see I'm contradicting myself (e.g., what good is a selective college if a high-ability student can still slide by, even with calc?). I'm talking about true college enrollment, not DE, and high-ability students, and acceleration of content coverage vs depth vs a combination of the two. I apologize that this post is so muddled - I'm not in a frame of mind to clearly articulate a few different points that I'd like to make... maybe I need more coffee... Maybe I'm not contradicting myself, because my point is that college is sometimes too late for exposure to depth.

 

Shallow acceleration will not allow for depth of intellectual development. I'm trying to find just the right quote from Rusczyk's problem-solving presentation at the 2009 Math Prize for Girls (there's also a video), but I'd really like to quote a good half of it. I'll leave this much for those who are not familiar with this perspective:

 

One of the big failures of our standard curriculum is, "Calculus is the Holy Grail." The students are taught from a very young age that, "If you get to calculus by 8th grade, you’re smart, because calculus is hard." Calculus is easy. How many of your students get to calculus and they think, "Hey, there are two ideas, and they’re just doing those same two ideas over and over again," and then they’ve got three more years of this. It’s easy, it’s not super challenging, and it doesn’t give the students a wide view of mathematics. It almost lies to them -- they get to calculus in 9th grade and they think they’re masters of mathematics, and yet they haven’t seen ninety percent of it. They’ve seen this one narrow slice and it’s not even a very challenging slice. The AP calculus exam is extremely easy. You take the AP calculus exam and you compare how students do on it to, say, the AMC contests or contests like this. You’ll see lots of kids who get fives on the AP calculus exam but can’t get anywhere on tests like the one the girls are taking today. But, you don’t see that streak going the other way. You don’t see people who can crush these really hard problems like the ones in The Math Prize for Girls and can’t do the AP calculus. It just doesn’t work that way.

 

The last thing is that problem solving is the thing you do on the third Friday of the month if you have a little extra time. In my world, it’s the whole game. This is the whole game: the goal of education is how to solve new problems. It’s not the extra thing. It’s not the buzzword of the week. It’s the whole point.

 

Eta, oh, I don't think I can limit myself to just one quote. here's another one:

First, most of you are pretty familiar with the problem with the lack of depth. In the standard curriculum, the problems are just way too easy. Your children will zip through them really quickly. They’re not challenged. They never learn how to confront very difficult problems.

 

Part of the problem also is that they develop a perfectionist streak. How many of your children are perfectionists, and it drives them nuts when they don’t get one hundred percent? They have to get over that. We don’t want them to get over that by slacking off. We want them to get over that by being presented with more meaningful challenges, because if you’re always getting a hundred percent on everything, you are not learning efficiently enough. You’re not learning as fast as you can and you’re not learning how to do things you haven’t seen before. What happens is just what we saw with my classmate. If the first time they can’t do something is college, they get so used to just being able to do everything because they’re "smart," that once they can’t do something, they figure, "I’ve hit the wall. I can’t do this anymore. I’m quitting." That’s another thing that the tyranny of 100% encourages in students. It encourages them to think, "I can do all this because I am so smart," and once you can’t do it, then you’re done, while smarter people can go on. That’s just not the case.

 

Last, you can memorize your way through most of the math texts. These bright students are very good pattern matchers. I could stand up here and teach a class in calculus in Latin to most of these students, if I knew Latin, and they would still be passing. They would still be getting fives on the BC Calculus exam because they’d see the weird little symbols I put on the board, they’d figure out the words, and they’d pattern match. Our curriculum encourages that approach to learning. While it may have been a wonderful thing to be able to memorize lots of facts a hundred years ago, we have Google for that now. We can spend our time developing other skills.

[Crimson Wife]

Taking college alg or precal dual enrolled is not a sign of being an academically radically accelerated student. Those are typical high school classes. No one is suggesting that you shouldn't dual enroll your students for those classes. The pt is that they are not the equivalent of standard level university classes being taken at incredibly young ages (like a 12 yr old.)

 

 

OTOH, if the child was otherwise ready for college level work but had yet to take Algebra 2 or Pre-Calc., it seems a bit petty to keep him/her in high school just to complete the typical college prep. sequence. I had a sorority sister who did the PEG early college program at Mary Baldwin in lieu of high school and I'm pretty sure she hadn't completed the full high school math sequence before matriculating. She started a PhD. in econometrics at Stanford at 18 so clearly she got the math courses she needed at college to enter a quantitatively rigorous grad program.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

OTOH, if the child was otherwise ready for college level work but had yet to take Algebra 2 or Pre-Calc., it seems a bit petty to keep him/her in high school just to complete the typical college prep. sequence. I had a sorority sister who did the PEG early college program at Mary Baldwin in lieu of high school and I'm pretty sure she hadn't completed the full high school math sequence before matriculating. She started a PhD. in econometrics at Stanford at 18 so clearly she got the math courses she needed at college to enter a quantitatively rigorous grad program.

 

I am so with Wapiti in that I am obviously not communicating well in this discussion.

 

When someone says that an avg child is dual enrolling and will be taking college alg, pre-cal, and survey of calculus by 17 as demonstrating why it isn't necessarily true that a fully enrolled 12 yr isn't just an avg student, my point is that the 2 are not at all equivalent. What that child is accomplishing by 17 is completely avg and not at all unusual. (and that response was posted as a reply to my response (and very strong belief, btw) that avg kids are not ready to tackle college level work at 12)

 

And, while not all students are going to take heavy STEM courses, those that don't typically take heavy humanities courses. So, maturity to handle the workload if a student is enrolled full-time is going to have to come from one direction or the other. If not, what is the student actually taking? If the math classes are not upper level math and the humanities classes are not requiring analytical skills equivalent to reading complex lit like Milton w/output similar to multiple page papers of independent analysis.......what exactly are they taking that is making the courses college level? If college classes are not requiring higher rhetorical/analytical skills beyond the avg 12 yr old, our educational system is far worse than anyone imagines. (and I, for one, do not believe that to be true.....at least from the universities my kids have attended. Maybe some of their CC classes---but even then, more on par with the avg 15-16 yr old than 12 yr old.)

[Dmmetler]

 

OTOH, if the child was otherwise ready for college level work but had yet to take Algebra 2 or Pre-Calc., it seems a bit petty to keep him/her in high school just to complete the typical college prep. sequence. I had a sorority sister who did the PEG early college program at Mary Baldwin in lieu of high school and I'm pretty sure she hadn't completed the full high school math sequence before matriculating. She started a PhD. in econometrics at Stanford at 18 so clearly she got the math courses she needed at college to enter a quantitatively rigorous grad program.

PEG requires that the student complete Geometry-I'm not sure if that's expecting an Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II sequence, or Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry (both are fairly common) to enter.

[Mandy in TN]

Just look at the general education requirements for the state university closest to your home. For me that is MTSU, Middle Tennessee State University.

2 composition courses

1 speech course

2 history courses (US History 1 and 2, one may be substituted with TN history)

3 Fine Arts or Humanities courses (1 of these must be a literature course and the 2 literature courses that meet this requirement are Themes in Literature or Experience of Literature. The offerings change and include courses like: Power in The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, Children and Childhood in Literature, and Detective Literature.

1 math course whose requirement can be met with Math1010 Mathematics for General Studies

2 natural science courses that can be astronomy and topics in physical science

2 social behavioral courses that can be met with courses like Health and Wellness, Intro to Psychology, or Intro to Sociology

 

Of course, some of these requirements are determined by your major. Nursing majors take Statistics as their math class and that is the only math they must take. They have no further literature requirements. As you can see, a relatively young, average student could probably handle many of these general studies courses. :)

 

Mandy

 

 

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

Just look at the general education requirements for the state university closest to your home. For me that is MTSU, Middle Tennessee State University.

2 composition courses

1 speech course

2 history courses (US History 1 and 2, one may be substituted with TN history)

3 Fine Arts or Humanities courses (1 of these must be a literature course and the 2 literature courses that meet this requirement are Themes in Literature or Experience of Literature. The offerings change and include courses like: Power in The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, Children and Childhood in Literature, and Detective Literature.

1 math course whose requirement can be met with Math1010 Mathematics for General Studies

2 natural science courses that can be astronomy and topics in physical science

2 social behavioral courses that can be met with courses like Health and Wellness, Intro to Psychology, or Intro to Sociology

 

Of course, some of these requirements are determined by your major. Nursing majors take Statistics as their math class and that is the only math they must take. They have no further literature requirements. As you can see, a relatively young, average student could probably handle many of these general studies courses. :)

 

 

Sadly, yes, the bolded may be true.

This says more about the sorry level of this college education than about the abilities of the child.

[Jenny in Florida]

But if they are able to do college courses before they have officially graduated high school (certainly a 12 or 13 yo has not graduated high school?) they don't have to pay tuition? That sounds like the case at least in Florida, from what a PP shared, and maybe that's why the family in the above article does it that way?

 

1. My daughter had completed her high school graduation requirements when we sent her off to the early entrance program at age 12. She did it in three years.

2. At that point, her ACT scores were high enough to earn her a nice, solid merit-based scholarship from the college.

3. The school she attended was a small, private university. She was not "dual enrolled," which is defined as taking some college courses to fulfill high school requirements. Instead, she was enrolled as a full-time, degree-seeking student.

4. With the exception of the aforementioned scholarship, we paid the regular price for her education. Sending her to college early was in no way a cost-saving measure, just the right educational and social choice for her at the time. It is my understanding that, in general, only state colleges and community colleges offer free or very reduced rate tuition for dual enrolled students. This family's kids may certainly be earning merit scholarships or need-based aid, but the same would be true if the kids waited until a traditional age to enroll. I suspect, like all of the other families who choose early college for their kids, money is not the motivating factor.

5. In Florida, a high school student with a decent GPA and good enough scores on either the SAT/ACT or the PERT may do up to two years of dual enrollment at a community college more or less for free. Dual-enrolled students from public schools don't even pay for books, although homeschoolers are required to buy theirs. All the courses they take must meet some high school graduation requirement, and they can't take things like PE for free, only academic courses. As far as I know (based in part on lots of conversations with other parents who had kids enrolled in college courses before the age of 14), many or most states have programs similar to the one in Florida.

6. Many dual-enrolled students find it's possible to earn an associate's degree by the time they graduate from high school, because the college courses they take may be used for both.

[Jenny in Florida]

And the play is exactly what gives it away. PLaying swords and knights is not ready to read Dostoyevsky, Churchill and other books that require the nuance of maturity.

 

Right, because traditionally-aged college students don't "play." They don't run around in front of their dorms playing ultimate Frisbee. They don't stay up all night on the weekends playing Dungeons and Dragons (which is just swords and knights on paper). They don't form quidditch teams and dress up in uniforms based on those worn by characters in a series of children's books and chase around a person dressed like a snitch . . .

 

Oh, wait . . .

[Julie Smith]

Right, because traditionally-aged college students don't "play." They don't run around in front of their dorms playing ultimate Frisbee. They don't stay up all night on the weekends playing Dungeons and Dragons (which is just swords and knights on paper). They don't form quidditch teams and dress up in uniforms based on those worn by characters in a series of children's books and chase around a person dressed like a snitch . . .

 

Oh, wait . . .

 

Hay, you can play a version of Dungeons and Dragons where you dress up in costume and run around in the woods with swords. My husband did that lots in college, whole day affairs. All organized of course with hidden treasures and secret missions.

[regentrude]

 

Hay, you can play a version of Dungeons and Dragons where you dress up in costume and run around in the woods with swords. My husband did that lots in college, whole day affairs. All organized of course with hidden treasures and secret missions.

 

Our students are playing "Humans and Zombies", a campus wide affair with "humans" carrying huge plastic nerf guns and mountains of rolled up socks to throw at the zombies to freeze them

[I.Dup.]

1. My daughter had completed her high school graduation requirements when we sent her off to the early entrance program at age 12. She did it in three years.

 

6. Many dual-enrolled students find it's possible to earn an associate's degree by the time they graduate from high school, because the college courses they take may be used for both.

 

For #1 above, can you share how you did this? How would one go about making sure their young child completes high school? Do I just look up the local high school requirements? I will have to do more study on this. I don't know even how to keep transcripts and make sure they're getting the proper credit, I have not studied that yet as I thought I had a few years, but it would be good to know. I'm sure there are tons of these posts on the high school board.

 

For #6, are you saying that one cannot complete an undergrad degree for free? According to the links and information posted by PP, that is possible?

[Jenny in Florida]

My oldest is 5, LOL, so DE is far off. I'm going by what my high school did. Granted, that was almost 20 years ago, but as far as I can tell from the school site, the process is the same.

 

 

Having just signed an articulation agreement for my son at the local community college today, I can tell you the process is a little different now.

 

In order to be eligible for dual enrollment, a student must be a "rising junior or senior" (more on that below) with a cummulative GPA of at least 3.0. He must have SAT/ACT scores that meet specific cut-offs, which I don't remember off the top of my head, or earn appropriate scores on the CC's placement exam. He must have approval from his school.

 

What we discovered when we put in my son's application intially is that our local CC interprets that phrase "rising junior or senior" to mean "be at least 16 years old," at least in the case of homeschoolers. So, my son, who has almost enough credits, many of which he's earned through the state virtual school, to qualify as a senior and has ACT scores well above the required cut-offs and a CGPA higher than the minimal 3.0, was told he was not eligible to dual enroll because he was 14 years old. Despite the fact that no one could show us that age limitation in writing, we decided we just didn't feel like mustering the enthusiasm to argue about it and resigned ourselves to sticking with the virtual school for another year.

 

Apparently, someone took another look at his application, though, because we got a phone call the other day letting us know that they do have procedures in place to enroll underage students under certain circumstances. And it seems my son made the cut. As I said, we signed the basic articulation agreement (which is a form laying out the rules that govern dual enrollment in general, naming me as my son's school and other legal stuff) today. Next will come a meeting with another department, during which we'll go over the policies specific to having an underage student on campus and will sign a second form. Assuming that goes well, he'll be ready to register for the fall semester.

 

Also, the Florida requirements are that starting in 9th grade since 2006, dual enrollment courses have to be weighed the same as AP or IB courses.

 

 

That is correct. It was in the agreement we signed today.

[Jenny in Florida]

 

Yes. I went to a college prep academy and you took the DE courses there at the school.

 

 

That sounds almost more like AP.

[Jenny in Florida]

FWIW, this quote is directly from the FL website you linked: State universities are not required to weight dual enrollment credit in calculating grade point averages for admission.

 

No, universities are not required to weight ANY courses when calculating GPA for admission purposes. However, when ANY courses are weighted, Florida community colleges require that their courses are treated the same as AP/IB grades.

[Jenny in Florida]

 

Since you mention engineering: even most advanced 12 year olds will not be able to take any classwork that would give credit towards an engineering degree.

 

 

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

 

I'm in touch online with a number of families who have kids under the age of 14 taking college courses in a variety of disciplines. At the time I joined the group, my daughter was one of a very small minority of the kids who was pursuing an arts-related degree. Most of the kids were in STEM fields. And all of them were taking college courses, on campus, for credit. (Those were the criteria necessary to join the group.)

 

Since my daughter graduated almost two years ago, I'm not very active on the list any longer, and I don't remember off the top of my head what majors/degrees all of the kids are pursuing. But I can promise you that, at the time I was more involved, we had kids as young as 10 taking advanced math and science classes at several different four-year universities.

[*Michelle*]

That sounds almost more like AP.

 

 

4 AP courses were required for graduation. DE was separate and there was also IB.

[Jenny in Florida]

 

Hay, you can play a version of Dungeons and Dragons where you dress up in costume and run around in the woods with swords. My husband did that lots in college, whole day affairs. All organized of course with hidden treasures and secret missions.

 

 

Live-Action Role Play (affectionately known as LARP), and it's not limited to D&D.

[Jenny in Florida]

For #1 above, can you share how you did this? How would one go about making sure their young child completes high school? Do I just look up the local high school requirements? I will have to do more study on this. I don't know even how to keep transcripts and make sure they're getting the proper credit, I have not studied that yet as I thought I had a few years, but it would be good to know. I'm sure there are tons of these posts on the high school board.

 

For #6, are you saying that one cannot complete an undergrad degree for free? According to the links and information posted by PP, that is possible?

 

 

Like so much else about homeschooling, the answer to most of the questions in your first paragraph is, "It depends."

 

Florida doesn't actually require homeschoolers to do anything specific for high school. We played around with the idea of using a correspondence school or umbrella option to make her diploma look more "real," but ultimately decided it wasn't worth the money to us.

 

Instead, I looked up the requirements for high school graduation in our county and also what is required for admission to state universities and based our requirements on that list. Once my daughter crossed over to doing high school-level output as well as input, I made up my own transcript form (based on samples I found online) and started keeping records. She took a couple of classes each year through the state's online virtual school, but we mostly did our own thing. For any classes I designed, I wrote course descriptions and kept lists of all of the books she read and any materials she used, what assignments she completed, etc.

 

Because she tended to want to study lots of different things, she ended up taking more than the typical number of courses each year. We hadn't planned on graduating her as early as we did. Instead, I figured we'd just keep going until she was ready to move on, and she'd just graduate with more credits than usual. As it turned out, though, she was really wilting at home by the end of that third year, and it was clear she needed new challenges and some real academic and social peers.

 

Outside of an umbrella school of some kind, there is no "Proper Credit Fairy." Homeschoolers decide how much credit their students earn, when they earn it, etc. So, when it was time, I gathered up all of the notes and records I'd been keeping, formatted all of the course descriptions into a nice, neat portfolio, finished off the transcript, and sent them off with her application.

 

As for the second question, I can speak only for Florida. "Dual enrollment" is available for only two years for each student, equivalent to their junior and senior years of high school. After that, no matter whether they are 14 or 30, free dual enrollment ends.

 

However, like any other student, they are eligible for scholarships and grants and all financial aid both merit based and need based. A student who is truly stellar academically might certainly find a four-year university who offered a full ride for that last two years. And one who has a good academic record and can demonstrate serious financial need might end up paying little or nothing to complete a degree. In neither case would being under 18 affect those opportunities.

[regentrude]

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

I'm in touch online with a number of families who have kids under the age of 14 taking college courses in a variety of disciplines. At the time I joined the group, my daughter was one of a very small minority of the kids who was pursuing an arts-related degree. Most of the kids were in STEM fields. And ...

we had kids as young as 10 taking advanced math and science classes at several different four-year universities.

 

Jenny, please note that I said "most advanced 12 year olds".

 

I never said no 12 year old, or "the most advanced".

I am fully aware that such children exist, but I am sure you will agree with me that the children who manage to take these classes are exceptionally rare and not in the majority even among accelerated students.

[Χά�ων]

My DS is already thinking about what he wants to study and where he wants to go to college. He wants to start at 14. He is bouncing between two areas of study right now, both would suit his personality and interests but I really think one of the options will be what he ultimately decides to pursue because it has been a passion of his since he was 2. MOST of the older homeschooled teens we know IRL who go to college start college no later than 16. A rare few wait and start college the same time they would have had the gone the traditional education route. Starting a class or two between the ages of 12-14 is not unheard of or all that uncommon. The public school are really bad here though so a homeschooled 8th grader who has finished algebra 1 is above half the high school graduates who have to take remedial math.

[8filltheheart]

I had typed out a long post and my page refreshed itself and ate it. :( I don't have time to re-type it, but my question was why is it "a good" for college level classes to be easily accessible to avg younger students? Doesn't that reduce college level education to the new middle school/new high school? (It honestly depresses me (am I the only one?) that degree seeking at 12 or 14 or even 16 for **avg** students doesn't automatically seem out of the norm. This has absolutely **nothing** to do with age of the students but the perception of the quality of college level education.)

 

I had typed out examples about why course titles alone shouldn't be indicative of the required level ability. For example, American history is studied in elementary school, high school, and college. Is there not (or should there not be) an increased expectation of objectives? Shouldn't an elementary course be more factual based, a high school course be more comparative based, and a college course be more rhetorical based? Is it a positive reflection on the quality of education if a college level course is taught on a factual level? Should college students be expected to able analyze influences and outcomes via research and formulate independent opinions or should they simply be reading texts and regurgitating data and professors' lecture points? Or is it the norm for avg middle school students and avg high school students to be able to achieve high levels of rhetorical output?

 

If college level general ed requirements are easily achieved by **avg** high school students, what distinguishes high school from college? Why not end high school at 10th grade for college bound students and replace the last 2 yrs with freshman and sophomore college classes? (and if that is an acceptable outcome, do employers that used to want to see a high school diploma and now want a college degree, are they eventually going to want an advanced degree?)

 

FWIW.....this has nothing to do with students like those in the article or Jenny's kids. There is definitely a population of students that are ready. I am talking in terms of statistical bell curve norms and the avg student.

[flyingiguana]

Having seen several kids go this route AND having seen the write up in the paper about them, I'm actually VERY skeptical about this article. There seem to be parents who push this, and then justify it all by writing it up in glowing terms. But there's a lot of exaggeration and glossing over difficulties (like the classes that were failed, etc). I've seen it in action irl -- not just read about it on the web.

 

Just getting into the college classes does not mean a student will do well. And most kids, if they wait to the "right" age (no matter how accelerated they are) will likely make more of college if they have more background.

 

I also fail to see how running off to an institutionalized educational setting is going to broaden a child's mind. It just puts them in the groove that much earlier, so they are less likely to have any creativity.

 

There are some special programs AT colleges that are FOR younger kids that do have a reasonable track record. I'm not necessarily talking about those. Although STEM professors I know who have had their kids in those sorts of programs, including very acclaimed ones, were less than enthusiastic about the experience.

 

I wouldn't do it to my kids. In fact, we chose not to do this to our elder child (even though she was obviously a good candidate). She spent her high school years on other things. Looking back on it, it was the best decision we could have made. She did start college classes earlier than 18, but didn't do college at 12 -- even though she certainly was bright enough to have gotten in. I think there's some mystique about how bright college students are -- a lot of them aren't, I'm sorry to say, and just because a younger kid is on the same level as the average or lower of 18 yr olds in college does not mean these bright kids wouldn't benefit from waiting. (and even if they're on the same level as the bright 18 yr olds....)

 

College is still gonna be there in 4-6 years, but the opportunity to do other things that are more broadening and enriching may not.

[Dana]

The public school are really bad here though so a homeschooled 8th grader who has finished algebra 1 is above half the high school graduates who have to take remedial math.

 

 

I just want to point out that most of the students in my remedial math classes have finished algebra 1. I've also had homeschooled students who have graduated and start in my class. So I wouldn't assume that finishing algebra 1 means having mastered algebra 1.

 

In our state, algebra 1 is the first course students can get high school credit for. To graduate, they need 3 credits of math. I am often very discouraged when I have 18-20 year olds in my class who are recent high school graduates.

 

As for early college, I can absolutely see it for some students - those students who are incredibly driven and pull their parents along. My son isn't one of those, even though he's advanced. I do see him taking some classes at the university here and possibly the cc. I also really know the educational quality at the cc here (and some at the uni), and although the courses will meed needs (group discussion, lab equipment, classes where the responsibility for learning is on him), it's definitely not what I see as my ideal "college experience" for him.

[flyingiguana]

 

 

If college level general ed requirements are easily achieved by **avg** high school students, what distinguishes high school from college? Why not end high school at 10th grade for college bound students and replace the last 2 yrs with freshman and sophomore college classes?

 

 

 

1. This is, unfortunately, true of a lot of gen ed courses. It would be nice if they were more challenging.

 

2. There are a lot of kids doing what you suggest -- basically finishing up high school in 10th grade and doing dual enrollment. It's nothing all that special (least, not around here). (Although I wonder about whether the professors are finding it difficult to deal with that age range, because many of the colleges around here are dropping that program)

 

It's the starting college before 16 that I find highly questionable.

 

Even in our really bright students, we see a LOT of maturation occurring between 18 and 21. For most kids, it really does make sense to "delay" college until 18, even if they're academically ready way earlier.

 

The problem is what to do with them in the mean time, because most high school programs aren't really geared toward teaching at a very high level. Oh, homeschooling. That would work....

[regentrude]

If college level general ed requirements are easily achieved by **avg** high school students, what distinguishes high school from college? Why not end high school at 10th grade for college bound students and replace the last 2 yrs with freshman and sophomore college classes? (and if that is an acceptable outcome, do employers that used to want to see a high school diploma and now want a college degree, are they eventually going to want an advanced degree?)

 

 

I have thought about this question a lot. I am teaching at a four year university with STEM focus, and to be honest, some classes are just high school level. For example, there is nothing "college level" about the algebra/trig based physics course I teach - the mandatory physics classes in any college prep high school in my home country by far exceed the level of this class (and thus my 13 y/o finishing on top of the class is not a particularly surprising feat). But since the students in this class never had to take any physics in high school, we are effectively teaching them material they should have, and could have, studied in high school.

 

I believe the problem with the low level of college courses can be traced back to the low level of the high school education students receive in this country. What passes for AP and is accessible only to the best students at well funded schools is a required class for every college prep student elsewhere in the world (as I said before, every German student who wants to go to university has studied calculus and two foreign languages for 7 and 10 years, resp.). But colleges have to pick up where the schools leave off. It took me several years after coming here to teach to fully understand why the level of classwork was so low.

 

I very much like the idea of graduating non-college bound students from high school after grade 10, as is done in Germany. Only college bound students attend high school for grades 11 and 12; the other students continue their education in vocational training, apprenticeships or schools that prepare for a specific career. I would also like to see more differentiation - in our school district, there is no differentiation until the strongest students are permitted to take pre-algebra in 7th instead of 8th grade. Thus it would easily be possible to give the able students a much stronger, college prep education and consequently raise the level of college classes.

[Χά�ων]

I had typed out a long post and my page refreshed itself and ate it. I don't have time to re-type it, but my question was why is it "a good" for college level classes to be easily accessible to avg younger students? Doesn't that reduce college level education to the new middle school/new high school? (It honestly depresses me (am I the only one?) that degree seeking at 12 or 14 or even 16 for **avg** students doesn't automatically seem out of the norm. This has absolutely **nothing** to do with age of the students but the perception of the quality of college level education.)

 

I had typed out examples about why course titles alone shouldn't be indicative of the required level ability. For example, American history is studied in elementary school, high school, and college. Is there not (or should there not be) an increased expectation of objectives? Shouldn't an elementary course be more factual based, a high school course be more comparative based, and a college course be more rhetorical based? Is it a positive reflection on the quality of education if a college level course is taught on a factual level? Should college students be expected to able analyze influences and outcomes via research and formulate independent opinions or should they simply be reading texts and regurgitating data and professors' lecture points? Or is it the norm for avg middle school students and avg high school students to be able to achieve high levels of rhetorical output?

 

If college level general ed requirements are easily achieved by **avg** high school students, what distinguishes high school from college? Why not end high school at 10th grade for college bound students and replace the last 2 yrs with freshman and sophomore college classes? (and if that is an acceptable outcome, do employers that used to want to see a high school diploma and now want a college degree, are they eventually going to want an advanced degree?)

 

FWIW.....this has nothing to do with students like those in the article or Jenny's kids. There is definitely a population of students that are ready. I am talking in terms of statistical bell curve norms and the avg student.

 

 

 

 

You raise good points. From what I have seen with the local schools (including where I attended) they just do not prepare students to take a rigorous college level course load. Everything is dumbed down to the point where the advanced students are taking what I view as an average course load. Colleges have to adapt. They do so by offering remedial courses and making course more accessible to incoming students.

 

I really believe that the average student could handle a more rigorous 6-12^th grade education then what is being provided. It is why I homeschool.

[Crimson Wife]

 

For #1 above, can you share how you did this? How would one go about making sure their young child completes high school? Do I just look up the local high school requirements? I will have to do more study on this. I don't know even how to keep transcripts and make sure they're getting the proper credit.

 

 

This is really going to vary by state. Here in California, college prep high school coursework has to be specifically approved by the UC Regents (gotta love the micromanaging this state does). There is a new online program called UC Scout, that is free to students enrolled in PS (including virtual charters) and $19/course for private school students (including private HSers) and out-of-state students that offers approved courses.

[Crimson Wife]

I had typed out a long post and my page refreshed itself and ate it. :( I don't have time to re-type it, but my question was why is it "a good" for college level classes to be easily accessible to avg younger students? Doesn't that reduce college level education to the new middle school/new high school? (It honestly depresses me (am I the only one?) that degree seeking at 12 or 14 or even 16 for **avg** students doesn't automatically seem out of the norm. This has absolutely **nothing** to do with age of the students but the perception of the quality of college level education.)

 

 

But the "average" homeschooled teen probably is (A) much better prepared and (B) quite possibly brighter than the average student at a CC or even many 4 year schools. HSers are a self-selected group, and I think that the upper end of the bell curve tends to be overrepresented among HSed children.

[wapiti]

(It honestly depresses me (am I the only one?) that degree seeking at 12 or 14 or even 16 for **avg** students doesn't automatically seem out of the norm. This has absolutely **nothing** to do with age of the students but the perception of the quality of college level education.)

 

 

The more I think about it, the more depressing it becomes. I go round and round in my mind. While I'm still somewhat skeptical of the extent to which it's true that an average young high school student is capable of work at an average state college (hoping this is true only for the core courses and not true for majors), I suppose college really is the new high school. The expense of what is essentially a high school education in "college" is enormous, both for the students themselves and the state taxpayers, not to mention the opportunity cost of what those students could do with two to four years if they had learned the same stuff in high school. The lack of mind-stretching experience even for average college students is sad and potential-limiting. The perceived value of the "degree" in the marketplace may be quite confusing for employers as well as students. I feel like I could go on and on, and I don't know who to blame except for PS K-12 education. No wonder competition for higher-tier schools is fiercer than ever.

[Χά�ων]

 

I just want to point out that most of the students in my remedial math classes have finished algebra 1. I've also had homeschooled students who have graduated and start in my class. So I wouldn't assume that finishing algebra 1 means having mastered algebra 1.

 

In our state, algebra 1 is the first course students can get high school credit for. To graduate, they need 3 credits of math. I am often very discouraged when I have 18-20 year olds in my class who are recent high school graduates.

 

As for early college, I can absolutely see it for some students - those students who are incredibly driven and pull their parents along. My son isn't one of those, even though he's advanced. I do see him taking some classes at the university here and possibly the cc. I also really know the educational quality at the cc here (and some at the uni), and although the courses will meed needs (group discussion, lab equipment, classes where the responsibility for learning is on him), it's definitely not what I see as my ideal "college experience" for him.

 

I should clarify that when I am teaching DS math I do not consider a level complete unless everything has been mastered. I forget that things are different elsewhere. I do recall taking algebra 1 but not until high school I took it my freshman year and I was in the advanced math group. Most kids did not take it until their sophomore or junior year. We got half way through the book like we did every year and just moved to the next level as long as we had a passing grade (C- or higher). Actually, now that I think about it we NEVER finished a math book any year I went to school. And we always started with the next book the following year.

This article shows that there is at least one third-tier college which will accept 12 years who aren't super gifted into a four year program. The implication here is that your undergraduate college doesn't matter at all, a bachelor's degree is just a piece of paper, a check-box to work through from any institution that will have you. I bet that if these kids waited until they were 18, they could get accepted to a more reputable and challenging school, not just the one that happens to be close enough to allow you to live at home.

[Χά�ων]

This article shows that there is at least one third-tier college which will accept 12 years who aren't super gifted into a four year program. The implication here is that your undergraduate college doesn't matter at all, a bachelor's degree is just a piece of paper, a check-box to work through from any institution that will have you. I bet that if these kids waited until they were 18, they could get accepted to a more reputable and challenging school, not just the one that happens to be close enough to allow you to live at home.

 

A bachelor's degree is required to get a job as a receptionist these days (A job I got right out of high school with just my diploma in hand). It has pretty much become just a piece of paper. Granted, an expensive piece of paper but still a piece of paper.

[regentrude]

But the "average" homeschooled teen probably is (A) much better prepared and ( B) quite possibly brighter than the average student at a CC or even many 4 year schools. HSers are a self-selected group, and I think that the upper end of the bell curve tends to be overrepresented among HSed children.

 

 

This is most definitely not the case among the homeschoolers I know IRL.

Most of those are behind where they would be in public school.

I know only one other family who homeschools because they want to provide superior academics.

None of the 18 year olds in our group are yet attending a college. None of the kids who would have been 9th graders in ps are doing high school level work.

[serendipitous journey]

This is most definitely not the case among the homeschoolers I know IRL.

Most of those are behind where they would be in public school.

I know only one other family who homeschools because they want to provide superior academics.

None of the 18 year olds in our group are yet attending a college. None of the kids who would have been 9th graders in ps are doing high school level work.

 

 

offhand, I think perhaps the HSed children may be brighter than average AND lagging PSed children, though it's not clear what that implies for the topic of this thread. The HSers in my local community are certainly higher general IQ than the middle of the US population bell curve. They are also not driven by an interest in superior academics and many of the children, as far as I can tell, are behind where they would be in public school.

 

I'm not sure what this means for the college discussion, though ...

A bachelor's degree is required to get a job as a receptionist these days (A job I got right out of high school with just my diploma in hand). It has pretty much become just a piece of paper. Granted, an expensive piece of paper but still a piece of paper.

 

Even if your only goal in college is vocational, it still pays to go to a better school. To be hired as an entry-level receptionist, you can get by with a 4-year degree from any school. I guarantee you, though, that a four year degree from even big-state-school will open more doors than a BA from third tier local school.

 

And, it's not like you are saving money sending your twelve year old to the $13k/year private school either, versus waiting until they are 18 and sending them to big state school.

[YourFidgetyFriend]

Just look at the general education requirements for the state university closest to your home. For me that is MTSU, Middle Tennessee State University.

2 composition courses

1 speech course

2 history courses (US History 1 and 2, one may be substituted with TN history)

3 Fine Arts or Humanities courses (1 of these must be a literature course and the 2 literature courses that meet this requirement are Themes in Literature or Experience of Literature. The offerings change and include courses like: Power in The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, Children and Childhood in Literature, and Detective Literature.

1 math course whose requirement can be met with Math1010 Mathematics for General Studies

2 natural science courses that can be astronomy and topics in physical science

2 social behavioral courses that can be met with courses like Health and Wellness, Intro to Psychology, or Intro to Sociology

 

Of course, some of these requirements are determined by your major. Nursing majors take Statistics as their math class and that is the only math they must take. They have no further literature requirements. As you can see, a relatively young, average student could probably handle many of these general studies courses. :)

 

Mandy

 

I taught English at MTSU and while I agree that a bright 15yo or average 16yo who has had a good education prior to enrolling should be able handle the class I taught, I have my doubts than an average 12yo could. "Average" would be the key word here. I don't know about the other courses since I did not attend MTSU for UG, but the first 2 composition courses are considered weeding out classes for those who won't be able to handle college level material.

A couple of really telling quotes from the article:

 

"How's he doing?" I ask assistant professor Grover Plunkett.

"He's got the highest average in the class."

 

"It makes you wonder,†their friend Wesley Jimmerson says, shaking his head. "Are they advanced, or are we just really behind?"

[serendipitous journey]

This seems like such a neat family! But why start your kids in college classes THAT early, can't they only complete a 2-year degree unless they go off to university?

 

http://www.today.com...ge-12-1C9316706

 

WDYT?

 

That does seem to be a remarkable, healthy family. It is a joy to know of an American family like this -- it seems to me to personify much of the American dream/American ethos of entrepreneurship, down-to-earthness, hard work, civic service and exceptionality. The parents appear to have provided their children extraordinary opportunities to learn, to play, to grow and to thrive.

 

I do think that exceptionality is a key factor here. The family is exceptionally talented, whether the parents know it or not. :)

[I.Dup.]

I am still confused about the FL thing. Can you or can you not complete a 4-year undergrad degree during high school? Based on the previously linked DE requirements and what a PP said, it is possible. But Jenny said it's not?

[Χά�ων]

I am still confused about the FL thing. Can you or can you not complete a 4-year undergrad degree during high school? Based on the previously linked DE requirements and what a PP said, it is possible. But Jenny said it's not?

 

Yes, those of us who are now debating moving to FL wehn their child is high school age want to know.

[*Michelle*]

DE would allow you to complete an associate's degree, but not a bachelor's degree. The DE programs here are linked to the state college (formerly community college) system. Here's a really nice PDF that covers DE in Florida: http://www.fscj.edu/mydegree/pre-college/dual-enrollment/assets/documents/dual-enrollment-handbook.pdf

[I.Dup.]

DE would allow you to complete an associate's degree, but not a bachelor's degree. The DE programs here are linked to the state college (formerly community college) system. Here's a really nice PDF that covers DE in Florida: http://www.fscj.edu/...nt-handbook.pdf

 

 

OK, so that is exactly the same as my state (WA). I was thinking you could earn a bachelor's.

[Mandy in TN]

In TN the dual enrollment grant is for juniors and seniors and dual enrollment paperwork will state juniors and seniors. However, younger students with a 3.2 GPA may enroll at our local cc (that has transfer agreements with the state universities for all 41 general studies credit hours) if they have a G/T IEP for college classes. They are not eligible for the DE grant, so the course would need to be paid for at the regular rate. I have known two families who have done this with 12yo girls and after jumping through a few hoops (one was specifically for music theory so the hoops were a little different) they were pleased with the experience and both the young ladies did well. OTOH- I have been involved with a large homeschool community for many years and out of the hundreds of families who I met I have only known these 2 families IRL who have done this. This was also 5 years ago. The cc still has the same wording on their website, but I don't know anyone who has tried to do this recently.

 

Although the thought has occurred to me to try it with my youngest if he has interest in doing so. The satellite campus close to my home is one building and just offers a few small classes. I don't know that I will, but I like knowing that the option is there. I do think that a bachelor's degree is now required for many, many jobs that not so long ago only required a high school diploma. Also, in my admittedly limited experience it does seem that the general studies classes required by the state university are fairly close to what I remember as high school classes. :(

 

Mandy

 

[Jenny in Florida]

Jenny, please note that I said "most advanced 12 year olds".

 

I never said no 12 year old, or "the most advanced".

I am fully aware that such children exist, but I am sure you will agree with me that the children who manage to take these classes are exceptionally rare and not in the majority even among accelerated students.

 

Honestly, I'm no longer sure such kids are as rare as we all want to believe. Is every kid who might get labelled "gifted" because she scored in the top 10% on the FCAT capable of acing college-level math? Of course not. But I suspect there are a lot more out there who might thrive on a whole lot more challenge than our educational system -- which likes to put people in neatly defined boxes based on chronology rather than ability -- normally allows.

 

I also suspect this is something that many folks don't want to admit, because it raises a whole lot of uncomfortable questions.

[Χά�ων]

 

OK, so that is exactly the same as my state (WA). I was thinking you could earn a bachelor's.

I would rather live in WA but I will readily admit that living in FL sounds nice in the middle of winter when I look outside and see 2 feet of snow covering my 400ft long driveway...

[Dicentra]

I very much like the idea of graduating non-college bound students from high school after grade 10, as is done in Germany. Only college bound students attend high school for grades 11 and 12; the other students continue their education in vocational training, apprenticeships or schools that prepare for a specific career. I would also like to see more differentiation - in our school district, there is no differentiation until the strongest students are permitted to take pre-algebra in 7th instead of 8th grade. Thus it would easily be possible to give the able students a much stronger, college prep education and consequently raise the level of college classes.

 

:iagree: My father emigrated from Germany when he was 16 and I've often heard him talk about the schooling system in Germany. I think it sounds like a very good idea.

 

I also believe in differentiated classes. When I first began teaching, the Ontario government was experimenting with "destreaming" the Grade 9 classes. I taught a Grade 9 Science class with 30 students in it and abilities ranged from "unable to read" to "reading at a Grade 12 level". The best I could do was to teach to the middle, help the struggling kids as much as I could, and let the advanced kids be bored. It wasn't a good situation for anyone. Thankfully, the government decided their "experiment" didn't work and went back to streaming a few year later. It certainly made me have a greater appreciation for elementary school teachers that have to work with classes like that all the time.

 

On a side note - do any other countries have dual enrollment besides the U.S.? I've heard of something somewhat similar here in Ontario but it's for students that are heading to tech voc training so that they can do part of an apprenticeship for a trade while still in high school. As far as I know, nothing like DE exists here for kids that are headed for university.

[Tress]

On a side note - do any other countries have dual enrollment besides the U.S.? I've heard of something somewhat similar here in Ontario but it's for students that are heading to tech voc training so that they can do part of an apprenticeship for a trade while still in high school. As far as I know, nothing like DE exists here for kids that are headed for university.

 

Just listening quietly to the conversation :)

 

Dicentra, I'm from the Netherlands and we do not have anything like DE. It sounds like a neat option. The only way to get access to university courses here is *after* having passed *all* (10-11) state exams.

[ebunny]

 

Honestly, I'm no longer sure such kids are as rare as we all want to believe. Is every kid who might get labelled "gifted" because she scored in the top 10% on the FCAT capable of acing college-level math? Of course not. But I suspect there are a lot more out there who might thrive on a whole lot more challenge than our educational system -- which likes to put people in neatly defined boxes based on chronology rather than ability -- normally allows.

 

I also suspect this is something that many folks don't want to admit, because it raises a whole lot of uncomfortable questions.

 

:iagree: . Especially the bolded.

[Hannah]

Just listening quietly to the conversation :)

 

Dicentra, I'm from the Netherlands and we do not have anything like DE. It sounds like a neat option. The only way to get access to university courses here is *after* having passed *all* (10-11) state exams.

 

Listening in too.

No dual enrollment here either and you also have to pass all high school exams and earn a certificate before entering university. We don't have transcripts.

Not that our school education system should be a model for anyone - South Africa scores close to bottom worldwide, but university degrees are still internationally accredited in most fields.

[Dmmetler]

In TN the dual enrollment grant is for juniors and seniors and dual enrollment paperwork will state juniors and seniors. However, younger students with a 3.2 GPA may enroll at our local cc (that has transfer agreements with the state universities for all 41 general studies credit hours) if they have a G/T IEP for college classes. They are not eligible for the DE grant, so the course would need to be paid for at the regular rate. I have known two families who have done this with 12yo girls and after jumping through a few hoops (one was specifically for music theory so the hoops were a little different) they were pleased with the experience and both the young ladies did well. OTOH- I have been involved with a large homeschool community for many years and out of the hundreds of families who I met I have only known these 2 families IRL who have done this. This was also 5 years ago. The cc still has the same wording on their website, but I don't know anyone who has tried to do this recently.

 

Although the thought has occurred to me to try it with my youngest if he has interest in doing so. The satellite campus close to my home is one building and just offers a few small classes. I don't know that I will, but I like knowing that the option is there. I do think that a bachelor's degree is now required for many, many jobs that not so long ago only required a high school diploma. Also, in my admittedly limited experience it does seem that the general studies classes required by the state university are fairly close to what I remember as high school classes. :(

 

Mandy

 

 

I'm in TN as well, and I've never heard of the possibility of getting a GT IEP for early college. We had to get one for DD to be able to enter K early (and she was supposedly the first child granted one for a ridiculously long time) because of the way TN has their education laws worded, but when I've called the school district about her IEP and what it takes to renew it, I've been told that since GT isn't an area that is required to be served for homeschoolers, they won't bother to go through the process until and unless she's returning to PS.

 

My cover school suggests, pretty much every semester after I turn in my grades, that we grade skip DD specifically so she can qualify for dual enrollment "when she's ready for it". Uh...I don't think so. I really don't want to be forced to graduate her early if she's not ready for it. I think a GT IEP to let her enter early would be preferable.

 

My preference would be to somehow find a really, really high level high school program that puts her with other talented kids her age, rather than put her in college classes with people above her age that really don't have the depth of discussion that she craves. Unfortunately, such programs seem to be few, far between, and come with either the requirement of living in a specific state or heavy price tags. We might be able to swing private high school, but only if we don't need to pay anything for college.