So sad for a friend who announced she is getting a divorce..

[Koerarmoca]

Divorce is sad, when children are apart of it it is much worse. Currently dealing with a lot of issues with our nieces and nephews surrounding SILs divorce and quick remarriage. Truly heart breaking stuff.

[Dad 4 Boys]

Personally, I think a big reason divorce is more common is because people CAN. Women can be financially independent from men in ways they couldn't be two generations ago. No longer are you "trapped" in a situation you don't want to be in. Being a single parents to young children is not easy, so I don't think it's likely to be an impulsive decision for your friend.

 

Historically, the purpose of marriage was to transfer property. A man basically purchased a girl from her father. More recently it has evolved into a contract of codependency. Marriage allows people to share assets and make decisions for each other. Now that more women have the ability to earn their own money, marriage just isn't necessary in the way it used to be. Divorced parents can get child support and share custody.

 

I am married because I love my husband and our partnership WORKS. Yes, I am financially dependent on him, but he depends on me to keep his world right-side-up. If it stopped working, I would be able to brush-up my employable skills and not depend on him any longer.

 

I don't think marriages were ANY happier in the past. Plenty of men had their wives under their thumbs and didn't have much incentive to keep working on their relationships since she was trapped. Case in point:

 

 

 

None of those men have any honor. Any idea from what era this clipping was taken.

[klmama]

None of those men have any honor. Any idea from what era this clipping was taken.

 

Based on the address as "New York 4," it was probably from 1943-1963. After that, five-digit zip codes came into use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_code

[Dad 4 Boys]

Based on the address as "New York 4," it was probably from 1943-1963. After that, five-digit zip codes came into use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_code

 

 

Their opinions were probably a lot more popular back then than they would be now. However, I'm sure there are still quite a few men who truly feel this way, which is pretty sad.

[renmew]

I know my mother never meant to get divorced 30 years ago, but since my dad was already living with one of his girlfriends, I am glad she did it.

 

I never wanted to get a divorce, and I actually haven't yet. But, I have been separated for almost three years. My kids know who their dad is and he visits and even stays here for a few days when he is able. But, I probably will never live with him again... especially while the kids are at home. Living with the danger and instability created by his mental illness and drug abuse was not good for the kids. I have no intention of remarrying or even dating until my kids are grown.

 

None of this was decided lightly. I don't think it's fair to imply the divorced weren't willing to tough it out or try to get through the unhappy times.

[Liz CA]

I went to a women's retreat with ladies from my church this weekend. I met two divorcees who talked about how their marriages ended. One had two children under five and her husband, who she adored, suddenly left them.. It was such disgraceful behavior that her in laws helped her and her kids since her husbamd had run off with an employee. Then, in the other, the husband had a stroke and then decided he was gay and didn't want to be married. Again, there was a child in the picture. She says the stroke really changed his whole personality and he has had little to do with either his exwife or his now oung adult child. Anyway, these stories were a reminider to me that not everyone who is divorced is due to things like flightiness or craving for illusive perfection. I have met both men and women who were divorced because of appaling behavior of the other party. I just don't believe the adage that both are to blame. I think often that is not the case at all.

 

 

 

Every situation is different. It is true that often one spouse decides it's over and there is nothing the other can do. As usual, Eliana has put her finger on some very important points. Crises escalate without outside support, there is less incentive to work harder on one's marriage than there used to be. The easy way out is just that.

Nobody says a woman who has good reasons for divorce has taken the easy way out but everything has become a lot more difficult because many of us have to go it alone. Forums like these are our virtual support system now...and occasionally moderators have to delete something because what is being shared here should be shared with a counselor or a very good friend...but more often good support is hard to find.

[Liz CA]

I know my mother never meant to get divorced 30 years ago, but since my dad was already living with one of his girlfriends, I am glad she did it.

 

I never wanted to get a divorce, and I actually haven't yet. But, I have been separated for almost three years. My kids know who their dad is and he visits and even stays here for a few days when he is able. But, I probably will never live with him again... especially while the kids are at home. Living with the danger and instability created by his mental illness and drug abuse was not good for the kids. I have no intention of remarrying or even dating until my kids are grown.

 

None of this was decided lightly. I don't think it's fair to imply the divorced weren't willing to tough it out or try to get through the unhappy times.

 

 

 

Living in the circumstances you describe does not fit my definition of toughing it out. You realized a dangerous situation and took your children to a better place.

When I wrote in one of my previous musings that people are less inclined to tough it out, I meant when there is trouble like "we have poor communication, we are fighting about money, we cannot agree on parenting issues," etc. These things can be improved with help by skilled counselors or even just by thinking things through and coming up with an alternative.

 

Serious issues, one of which I consider drug use, is beyond fixing it on your own, especially if the user is not willing to take the necessary steps.

Just thought I clarify. I really don't want anyone to think that I wish people stayed in dangerous and abusive marriages so they can tough it out to the bitter end.

[DawnM]

Not all men who lived back then were like this!

 

My father, my grandfather, my great grandfather, and my great-great grandfather (that is as far back as I am aware) were all very gentle men who would never, ever have laid a hand on a woman.

 

There WERE kind men back then.

 

Dawn

 

 

[DawnM]

I am VERY sorry for your friend. I have watched divorces over the years and it is never easy or fun. Children get hurt even if they are older children.

[Dad 4 Boys]

There's a whole lot of judging going on in this thread. :glare:

 

 

Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between judging and having an opinion. The Merriam Websters Collegiate Dictionary I have uses these as definitions for the word judge.

 

"to hold as an opinion" and "to form an estimate or evaluation of; esp: to form a negative opinion about"

 

Obviously, a negative opinion depends upon an individual's perspective. I think that the only times that I expressed what could be called a negative opinion was in my remarks about unfaithful spouses and the 40s/50s men who advocated spanking their wives.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I am so sorry for your friend. She is very lucky to have a friend who feels her pain so deeply.:grouphug:

Number 1 on that list cracked me up. In my social circle, of the three couple friends we started with that were "happily" Xtian, two of them are divorced. And the five athieist/agnostic couples we've been friends with for 15 years?? Uh, NONE of us divorced. And statistically, that is the trend:

 

The Barna Research Group, an evangelical Christian organization that does surveys and research to better understand what Christians believe and how they behave, studied divorce rates in America in 1999 and found surprising evidence that divorce is far lower among atheists than among conservative Christians - exactly the opposite of what they were probably expecting.

 

I kind of would have liked to see the survey analyzers faces when they figured this out. Whoops!

 

If you follow the link provided by another poster (thank you for that BTW) and look at the sample size, I would be hesitant to put much weight on those findings. The athiest sample consists of 269 people, compared to approximately 3500 Christians and those associated with non-Christian faith. Hardly an equal grouping.

 

The initial survey included over 5000 individuals, approx. 1300 of whom were never married, so their data was obviously not included in the divorce rates. I would like to know the cohabitation rates and religious affiliation of those 1300. It would change how we view the results if the majority of these individuals were non-christians who chose to cohabit instead of marry and yet had failed relationships.

 

The research group included a statement acknowledging that 'atheists and agnostics have lower rates of marriage and a higher likelihood of cohabitation, a combination of behaviors that distort comparisons with other segments.'

[bolt.]

Divorce is always deeply painful and incredibly stressful for everyone involved. No one should be thinking a case is 'probably' one where a person is divorcing flippantly -- because those cases are just so rare. Instead, it is wise to start out assuming that the person's most deep heart and their intimate world has suffered earth-shaking damage, and that those events of suffering have left them without hope.

 

Divorce is usually a public proclamation of private hopelessness and failure... And, as such, the people involved require gentleness in their season of dispair. If they receive the emotional support they need, they will be better able to shelter and support their children through the crisis.

 

I don't mean all divorces are "right" or that I "support" the idea of divorce. I just feel that we ought to offer emotional support because that's how we love people who are suffering, even when they are (possibly) part of the cause of their own suffering.

[Dad 4 Boys]

 

Your opinion would have been "having a strong faith in god helps me have a strong marriage and I believe it helps a lot of people". What you said was judgmental. As if an atheist couldn't likely have a strong marriage.

 

Most of the people in my family aren't super religious and only one family member I know has ever been divorced. (Granted, totally anecdotal, but what else do I really have to go by in terms of examples?)

 

Nothing in my original post in any way stated that I thought atheists, or anyone else that doesn't share my beliefs, couldn't have a strong marriage. It was simply my opinion of some reasons I thought divorce rates are higher than they used to be. You took my statement, made assumptions and then attributed my "judgement" to your assumptions. I never said anything negative about any individual or group.

 

I'm curious what you mean by "super religious." When does one cross the line between regular or normally religious and super religious? How do you define that?

[Lady Florida.]

 

Nothing in my original post in any way stated that I thought atheists, or anyone else that doesn't share my beliefs, couldn't have a strong marriage. It was simply my opinion of some reasons I thought divorce rates are higher than they used to be.

 

 

If "lack of faith in god or some other higher being" is a reason divorce rates are higher, and if the number of atheists is on the rise, how is that not a judgement on atheists?

[Guest inoubliable]

If "lack of faith in god or some other higher being" is a reason divorce rates are higher, and if the number of atheists is on the rise, how is that not a judgement on atheists?

 

 

It is judgmental. He knows it.

Bad judgement call, too, seeing as how it's already been brought up that atheists/nones in general are more likely to not get married anyway. *shrug*

 

And that Barna study? LOL. Barna is an evangelical Xtian. He's not exactly biased towards the atheists/nones.

[Jennifer3141]

I am so sorry for your friend. She is very lucky to have a friend who feels her pain so deeply. :grouphug:

 

 

If you follow the link provided by another poster (thank you for that BTW) and look at the sample size, I would be hesitant to put much weight on those findings. The athiest sample consists of 269 people, compared to approximately 3500 Christians and those associated with non-Christian faith. Hardly an equal grouping.

 

The initial survey included over 5000 individuals, approx. 1300 of whom were never married, so their data was obviously not included in the divorce rates. I would like to know the cohabitation rates and religious affiliation of those 1300. It would change how we view the results if the majority of these individuals were non-christians who chose to cohabit instead of marry and yet had failed relationships.

 

The research group included a statement acknowledging that 'atheists and agnostics have lower rates of marriage and a higher likelihood of cohabitation, a combination of behaviors that distort comparisons with other segments.'

 

 

It was a Xtian group's study. They apparently had very little desire to study atheists. And I'm sure when the results and analysis started to come in, they had even LESS impetus to study atheists more. And i'm sure that if they even dared look at the gay marriage thing, that would probably terrify the wits out of them and skew the results in a direction this organization ins't willing or able to examine.

 

Their study is flawed because they presumed to know the outcome before they even began. And when it started to pan out in a different direction, they panicked and didn't expand or attempt to correct the statistical problems.

 

And your next statement will be that some atheist organization should do a study. But the truth is, we don't really care about your marriages. We don't actually care if you're divorced or cohabitating or cohabitating with 16,000 hamsters. It is amusing to us though when you try to couch your beliefs as facts when even YOUR organizations cannot actually PROVE those facts.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

And your next statement will be that some atheist organization should do a study. But the truth is, we don't really care about your marriages. We don't actually care if you're divorced or cohabitating or cohabitating with 16,000 hamsters. It is amusing to us though when you try to couch your beliefs as facts when even YOUR organizations cannot actually PROVE those facts.

 

 

True that.

[Jennifer3141]

 

How did they define Christian or identify the Christians?

 

 

 

It's an evangelical Xtian group. I would assume they defined Xtianity by their evangelical lens. But I know all of your sects have different rules and qualifications.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you tell people you're Xtian - you probably are. As an atheist, I could not care less if that means you had to take a swim in a pool or be "born again" or whatever. If you accept a self-identity label, then from my perspective that is what you are.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

Thank goodness it is harder to be the wrong kind of atheist.

 

 

LOL

[Dad 4 Boys]

Imagine if I made a list and said:

 

I think I'll make a list to discuss the reasons why marriages fail:

 

1. Belief in god or other higher power.

 

I'm sure I'd get some ruffled feathers. People would tell me I'm off my rocker. And I'd deserve that because it's not a reasonable statement. But it isn't reasonable in reverse either. And if one is going to quote some biased and poorly done study to support their statement I'm still not impressed.

 

 

I would say that I don't agree with you, but I do respect your opinion. I wouldn't call you judgemental because I don't think that the expression of an opinion like this is in any way judging me.

[NotSoObvious]

 

 

http://bit.ly/16vYXej

 

First link.

 

 

Wow! That was cool! I'd ask how you did that, but I should probably just google it. ;)

[Guest inoubliable]

 

It's my opinion you are being judgmental.

 

 

In my opinion, your opinion seems to be a fantastic interpretation of facts.

[Guest inoubliable]

Wow! That was cool! I'd ask how you did that, but I should probably just google it. ;)

 

 

Ha!

[Lady Florida.]

 

It's my opinion you are being judgmental.

 

 

:lol: :smilielol5:

[Lady Florida.]

Source

 

 

 

judg·men·tal

[juhj-men-tl]

 

adjective

1.

involving the use or exercise of judgment.

2.

tending to make moral judgments: to avoid a judgmental approach in dealing with divorced couples.

[Joanne]

 

 

I'm assuming that your 50 clients from the criminal justice system are all offenders of some type. If so, I would say that 2 - 4 most definitely apply. Otherwise, they most likely wouldn't have committed the offense that introduced them to the criminal justice system.

 

 

How do you accurately assume that having a criminal justice history means lack of planned family time? Or self centeredness? It would be easier to make a plausible case for non systematic set of morals/code of conduct. But, even that, many o my clients have a VERY strucutured and intentional code. It seems that maybe you menat YOUR code.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

And your next statement will be that some atheist organization should do a study. But the truth is, we don't really care about your marriages. We don't actually care if you're divorced or cohabitating or cohabitating with 16,000 hamsters. It is amusing to us though when you try to couch your beliefs as facts when even YOUR organizations cannot actually PROVE those facts.

 

 

Who do you mean by "your"? I certainly hope you are not talking about me, individually. I am fairly certain I haven't stated a theology or lack thereof in regards to this (or many other topics).

 

If by 'your' you are referring to the general christian assembly than have at it. But, please, don't presume to include me in your generalizations. That is unfair.

 

My only point was in saying that the sample isn't representative and the results cannot be taken seriously.

[Dad 4 Boys]

WendyK

 

I can sort of see your point, but I see your example as different than my original. Maybe it's just my perspective. I don't take broad general statements that personally. If you said that all people from Missouri are brainless hicks, I would just laugh because I know it isn't true. In the same vein, I don't see why anyone from any particular group gets that offended by someone's sweeping statements regarding their group.

 

I think we're at an impasse that we're never going to get around, so let's just agree to disagree.

[Dad 4 Boys]

How do you accurately assume that having a criminal justice history means lack of planned family time? Or self centeredness? It would be easier to make a plausible case for non systematic set of morals/code of conduct. But, even that, many o my clients have a VERY strucutured and intentional code. It seems that maybe you menat YOUR code.

 

 

If their structured and intentional code has caused or allowed them to become offenders of a local, state or federal judicial system, I would say that their code needs to be adjusted.

 

It's my opinion that good family time and lack of self centeredness would cause an individual to be less likely to run into trouble with our legal system.

[Jennifer3141]

Who do you mean by "your"? I certainly hope you are not talking about me, individually. I am fairly certain I haven't stated a theology or lack thereof in regards to this (or many other topics).

 

If by 'your' you are referring to the general christian assembly than have at it. But, please, don't presume to include me in your generalizations. That is unfair.

 

My only point was in saying that the sample isn't representative and the results cannot be taken seriously.

 

 

Well, since this thread has become atheists verses Xtians, I would assume that, "your" meant Xtianity. I am NOT Xtian. That is NOT my lens for looking at the world. It's well... YOURS.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

 

Well, since this thread has become atheists verses Xtians, I would assume that, "your" meant Xtianity. I am NOT Xtian. That is NOT my lens for looking at the world. It's well... YOURS.

 

 

I can't see where I stated I was a christian, which is my point. You are making an erroneous assumption.

[Guest inoubliable]

You know what leads to divorce??

 

 

 

 

 

Marriage.

 

Can we move on now?

[Dad 4 Boys]

How is it different? I think it's actually a more fair statement than yours since atheists are in the minority. I assume most divorces happen among people who identify with a religion since most people identify with a religion.

 

There is a completely different sense that comes across when a majority picks on a minority. For example, black people can make jokes about white people and you will find that a lot of people don't call that racist because of the minority position of blacks verses whites. But if a white person makes similar jokes about black people it's considered racist.

 

 

Well, I guess as a middle-aged, middle class, overweight, white, anglo saxon, protestant, heterosexual, fully able, mostly healthy, college educated, male, I'm a member of a lot of majority groups. Maybe that explains why I don't get personally offended by broad statements against any of my groups.

[SailorMom]

There are so many reasons people get divorced - i think it is impossible to try to categorize or label any features or situations that can lead to divorce.... I personally do think it's easier to list out pointers/secrets/ideas of how to have a good marriage.

I don't think my 20 years counts as "long" yet - but here's what I think and have experienced...

 

You have to be in it together, as a team

You can't keep score

Your main goal must be the happiness of the other person (of course, this only works if you're both doing it)

You have to chose love and commitment over and over again

You have to forgive over and over again

You have to communicate clearly and never play games

You can't lie - about anything except Christmas and Birthdays :)

In 99% of marriages - you have to have a loving, active, and fulfilling s_x life

You have to take time for each other and enjoy that time - it can't be a chore

[Dad 4 Boys]

 

How many broad statements are made against any of your groups? Honestly?

 

That all describes me except the protestant and male parts.

 

 

I think plenty of broad statements, both over and covert, are made against Protestants (i.e. Christians).

[Jennifer3141]

You know what leads to divorce??

 

 

 

 

 

Marriage.

 

Can we move on now?

 

 

 

Don't you ever just want to go back to dating?? Do you remember betting all excited because he was coming over but then you knew you'd also get a kick butt night of sleep all alone in the middle of your bed...

[Jennifer3141]

 

I can't see where I stated I was a christian, which is my point. You are making an erroneous assumption.

 

 

If by 'your' you are referring to the general christian assembly than have at it.

 

 

I "had at it" and you're stiill trying to argue. :lol:

[delaney]

I can honestly say that when I consider all of the marriages around me there is no religious rhyme or reason. 1 marriage the guy looked for younger greener pastures. That I believe was due to them just growing apart and not really having much in common anymore due to his change in professions(became a farmer and she is sooooo not a farm person). Another they were both VERY religious. He up and left her with 4 kids and a few years later the one son hung himself. No clue where he went off to. The next 3 are 3 of the 4 kids I grew up next to. Very catholic family. 1 is going on her third marriage, one her husband hit her and she left, the last the wife was totally controlling and he no longer even gets to see his kids.

I personally think that your spouse needs to be your number 1 priority so you don't lose sight of that person. No amount of religion or lack of religion is going to intervene and help if you aren't best friends.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I am so sorry for your friend. She is very lucky to have a friend who feels her pain so deeply. :grouphug:

 

 

If you follow the link provided by another poster (thank you for that BTW) and look at the sample size, I would be hesitant to put much weight on those findings. The athiest sample consists of 269 people, compared to approximately 3500 Christians and those associated with non-Christian faith. Hardly an equal grouping.

 

The initial survey included over 5000 individuals, approx. 1300 of whom were never married, so their data was obviously not included in the divorce rates. I would like to know the cohabitation rates and religious affiliation of those 1300. It would change how we view the results if the majority of these individuals were non-christians who chose to cohabit instead of marry and yet had failed relationships.

 

The research group included a statement acknowledging that 'atheists and agnostics have lower rates of marriage and a higher likelihood of cohabitation, a combination of behaviors that distort comparisons with other segments.'

 

 

A sample size of 269 is certainly adequate. Those numbers seem to reflect the population as a whole (and since it was a random sample, that is likely to be the case).

 

And are you basically arguing that atheists are still immoral since the only reason they have a lower divorce rate is because they live together before they're married? Seems to me they don't want to enter into the "Institution of Marriage" unless they are confident it will succeed. Like, maybe they actually DO take the concept of marriage very, very seriously? Maybe atheists actually get married out of love and respect and not to please a higher being who really has no say in the relationship.

 

To the OP, I am sorry. We've been through a round of divorces among friends and it is sad.

[delaney]

A sample size of 269 is certainly adequate. Those numbers seem to reflect the population as a whole (and since it was a random sample, that is likely to be the case).

 

And are you basically arguing that atheists are still immoral since the only reason they have a lower divorce rate is because they live together before they're married? Seems to me they don't want to enter into the "Institution of Marriage" unless they are confident it will succeed. Like, maybe they actually DO take the concept of marriage very, very seriously? Maybe atheists actually get married out of love and respect and not to please a higher being who really has no say in the relationship.

 

To the OP, I am sorry. We've been through a round of divorces among friends and it is sad.

 

For me cohabitation is just outright admitting that you are having premarital sex instead of living apart pretending it isn't happening. I find it funny to even consider religion as a factor in divorce since most people have had premarital sex. Find me a religion that okays that. It's the old pick and choose which rules you want to follow game. 22 years and DH and I are still going strong. Is religion involved-heck no. Focusing on US is what has kept us together.

[VeritasMama]

And are you basically arguing that atheists are still immoral since the only reason they have a lower divorce rate is because they live together before they're married? Seems to me they don't want to enter into the "Institution of Marriage" unless they are confident it will succeed. Like, maybe they actually DO take the concept of marriage very, very seriously? Maybe atheists actually get married out of love and respect and not to please a higher being who really has no say in the relationship.

 

 

Divorce rates are not lower among couples who co-habitate. A study by the CDC released in 2002 showed divorce rates were double for couples who cohabitated compared to those who didn't, though the divorce rate of couples who cohabitate after becoming engaged is much lower than for couples who cohabitate before deciding to marry. Today there isn't as much of a discrepency in the divorce rate between couples who did or did not cohabitate before marriage, but there are a lot of contradicting studies in this area, it is hard to know for sure because there are so many factors to take into account.

 

I am not trying to argue for or against cohabitation, just trying to point out that it doesn't lead to lower divorce rates.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I "had at it" and you're stiill trying to argue. :lol:

 

LOL I guess I was argumentative today. DH made me go away for awhile (we are painting the dining room). It's all good!!!

[Granny_Weatherwax]

A sample size of 269 is certainly adequate. Those numbers seem to reflect the population as a whole (and since it was a random sample, that is likely to be the case).

 

And are you basically arguing that atheists are still immoral since the only reason they have a lower divorce rate is because they live together before they're married? Seems to me they don't want to enter into the "Institution of Marriage" unless they are confident it will succeed. Like, maybe they actually DO take the concept of marriage very, very seriously? Maybe atheists actually get married out of love and respect and not to please a higher being who really has no say in the relationship.

 

To the OP, I am sorry. We've been through a round of divorces among friends and it is sad.

 

Not arguing anything at all. I just don't think the sample sizes are representative. I didn't read the whole study though, so maybe I am missing something.

 

I also must be missing something I wrote in my original post ...gotta start watching what I write in between the lines...but I didn't imply anything about athiests. Just that single people were excluded from a survey about divorce (obviously) but I think the results would be different if people who were in committed long term relationships, who never married but had subsequent breakups were included. People who never marry but are committed also grieve when their relationships end. Just because there is no piece of paper declaring the end of the relationship doesn't make it any less significant or painful.

[Incognito]

For me cohabitation is just outright admitting that you are having premarital sex instead of living apart pretending it isn't happening. I find it funny to even consider religion as a factor in divorce since most people have had premarital sex. Find me a religion that okays that. It's the old pick and choose which rules you want to follow game. 22 years and DH and I are still going strong. Is religion involved-heck no. Focusing on US is what has kept us together.

I (mis)read the bolded as you and your DH focus on the United States and it keeps you together. I found that to be a surprisingly unique way to maintain a relationship ... :) I think DH and I would probably enjoy country studies...