Feminism/Feminist - What does the word mean to you?

[aggieamy]

I wanted to start a discussion on this today. I consider myself a feminist but I feel like the word still has such a negative connotation that I don't like using it and wish there was another phrase I could use. The word feels almost militant.

 

For example -

I own my own engineering business. I'm one of about three women in my field in the entire metro area that does. I'm an expert in certain areas in my field. I'm outspoken. I'm a huge advocate for equal rights for women. Discrimination (of all types) makes me furious. I want DD to grow up and do whatever she wants and have a million opportunities. She can write novels or be a homeschool mom or be an astronaut or a surgeon or join the Peace Corps or a librarian or a trial lawyer or chairman of the board. Anything. I don't want her ever to think she can't do something because she's a girl.

 

I also love my DH dearly and would do anything for him. I like to surprise him with fun dinners and get books from the library that I think he'd like. He's one of the smartest men I've ever known. I don't dislike men at all and have had some wonderful strong male role models. My grandfather and father both encouraged me to be an engineer despite it being an untraditional field for a gal.

 

Would you consider those attitudes to be consistent with the defintion of feminism?

 

Talk amongst yourselves.

 

:)

[Mekanamom]

 

Would you consider those attitudes to be consistent with the defintion of feminism?

 

Talk amongst yourselves.

 

:)

 

 

Yes.

 

Feminism: The doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

 

I also consider myself a feminist, using the above definition. Not a thing in there about disliking or putting men down. :)

 

[Guest inoubliable]

I've noticed that most people who take issue with the word "feminism" or the doctrine are confused about what it means. It's about equality, not taking men down a peg.

[jillian]

It means the freedom to choose. Do you want to be a mathematician or scientist great. If you want to be a homemaker great. It's not either or. I also see the flip side. If you (general) want to be treated as an equal be prepared to be an equal. My husband is an instructor and so many women in the program come to him and other male instructors and try to use their sexuality for easier exams and then cry foul if they are given the special treatment. If you want to be equal expect equal treatment.

 

Also to me there are some amazing differences between men and women. I think they should be embraced equally. There are things I can't do and things my husband can't do and we compliment each other because of that.

[redsquirrel]

I would add in there an idea that gender based inequality etc is created by society. Women are not inherently unequal, not as smart, not naturally ambitious etc. I do not subscribe to 'different realms' or anything like that.

 

One is not born, but becomes a woman

[Crimson Wife]

Equal treatment under the law- right to vote, right to own property, right to not be assaulted by their husbands or fathers, right to hold paid employment without needing permission from husband/father/brother/other male relative, right to equal pay for equal work given equal qualifications, right to drive, right to choose her own husband and to divorce him (though I'd like to see a much lower overall divorce rate), right to equal educational opportunities, etc.

 

Beyond those basic rights, a general freeing of women to make their own choices about their lives in accordance with their own personal circumstances. Trying to force all women into a stereotypically "male" career trajectory is just as bad as trying to force all women to spend their whole adult lives as FT homemakers. I get so mad when those women who have chosen a "male" career pattern bash other women who have chosen career sequencing, part-time/flex work, etc., etc.

[Orthodox6]

I don't use either word as a compliment because they imply superiority on the part of women, sometimes imply hostility toward men. Those are the commonplace overtones for most people, even if some of us use the words otherwise. I incline toward "people rights".

[gardenmom5]

I grew up across the street from a militant feminist. my family was fairly liberal - but even as a child I was uncomfortable around her. to me, it is a *big* negative. It is someone who is so activist at being "pro woman" they end up hurting men, children and even women. they demean men (look at how many commericals mock/demean men in the name of advertising. I once tried to buy a "humorous thinking of you card" and they were *all* either about sex or bashing men. I complained to the male chain store manager - who had no choice in what he stocked. they were all chosen by a woman.), they treat children as though they are a burden and tell women if they choose to caretake their children over a "career" they aren't worth much. (I got that last one *alot* in the 70's.).

 

another group where the radicals took over and the founders message of mutual respect got lost in the shuffle.

[SKL]

I think it has a negative connotation because it contains "fem" only.

 

And of course because if you study the history of feminism, the "equality" movement gets overshadowed by the angry militancy, even anger against our own biology (the fact that our uterus naturally sets us apart, for example).

 

When I was in college, I had to read Simone de Bouvoir (sp?) and she was utterly convinced that, among other things, the reason we give dolls to girls is to make them feel "less than." She even seemed angry that she could not conveniently stand to pee. That's a bit much for me. And still today, it's so-called "feminist groups" who loudly insist that the right to abortion is the key to women's well-being. I seem to recall that when the Komen foundation cut back support for Planned Parenthood, a feminist boycott ensued. This is a mindset I do not wish to be associated with.

 

But history aside, I don't see how you get away from the "fem" in "feminism."

 

I would not call myself a feminist because I don't consider my gender to be relevant to my rights. I too have built a successful career in a predominantly "men's" field, am a business owner, and expect to be respected based on what I've done, regardless of sex. I just don't see the "feminist" propoganda lending me any credibility in that regard.

[Ipsey]

It means that I should be paid the same amount as a man if I do the same work he does.

 

I asked my boss for a raise yesterday. Got it.

 

Then, I found out that a man I have _seniority_ over (by 3 years), and have commensurate evaluations to, has been being paid at this rate for the past 2 years.

 

Feminism. Because women are people too.

[gardenmom5]

It means that I should be paid the same amount as a man if I do the same work he does.

 

I asked my boss for a raise yesterday. Got it.

 

Then, I found out that a man I have _seniority_ over (by 3 years), and have commensurate evaluations to, has been being paid at this rate for the past 2 years.

 

 

and I know a man to whom that happened and the only difference was what university they attended.

[pdalley]

I grew up across the street from a militant feminist. my family was fairly liberal - but even as a child I was uncomfortable around her. to me, it is a *big* negative. It is someone who is so activist at being "pro woman" they end up hurting men, children and even women. they demean men (look at how many commericals mock/demean men in the name of advertising. I once tried to buy a "humorous thinking of you card" and they were *all* either about sex or bashing men. I complained to the male chain store manager - who had no choice in what he stocked. they were all chosen by a woman.), they treat children as though they are a burden and tell women if they choose to caretake their children over a "career" they aren't worth much. (I got that last one *alot* in the 70's.).

 

another group where the radicals took over and the founders message of mutual respect got lost in the shuffle.

 

 

 

I was raised by one. Needless to say, it left me with some negative connotations around the word. To me it should mean that everyone woman has the right and freedom to choose the path best for HER. And not one choice - SAHM or career is superior to the other. It's all about what is the best fit for that person and/or family.

 

I also - as the mother of three sons - dislike the male bashing aspect I've seen on the radical side of it.

[Ipsey]

and I know a man to whom that happened and the only difference was what university they attended.

 

Fair enough.

 

Two cases scarcely make the case, however.

 

I used to have Very Very negative understanding of feminism. I still have a hard time calling myself a feminist because of negative connotations, but if I go by the reality of numbers and the disparity of lives between men and women, I don't see how I can refuse to call myself a feminist.

 

If you take a look at the stats, you'll see that pay is very strongly skewed toward men. For all of the times this happens (as in your man acquaintance's case), it happens most often in the direction of the man benefiting. A high degree of the time.

[PeacefulChaos]

I consider those to be in line with what feminism should be.

 

I *think* that this is the definition MOST people agree with. Equal rights for women, etc. I guess that I'm feminist based on this definition.

I do, however, believe that there are some things that some people are better at than others - there aren't, for example, a heck of a lot of female construction workers who can hold their own with a guy in that field. I know there are a few, and I'm not saying that's impossible, I'm just saying that naturally most women don't want to go and work construction. I guess it isn't ability as much as just nature. Women by all means can do their equal share of physical work - please don't read that as me saying they can't!

 

I'm very anti-feminist when it's the militant, anti-feminine, 'I can do everything just as well or better than a guy JUST because I'm a woman' type feminism. I don't like the mainstream way that some places have been devaluing men as of late (commercials, etc, where the guy, or the dad, is useless and stupid.) That sort of stuff really p*sses me off, because men are smart and good, too. Women aren't better than men or vice versa.

 

Anyway, I guess I'm saying that I understand your discomfort with the word because there have been some - though by all means they aren't the majority - who have kind of taken the word and made it something that it wasn't intended to be. It stinks that the most extreme are often who we look at as the norm, even though it isn't the case. (Same goes with religion, imo!) :)

[Xuzi]

It means my gender doesn't determine my opportunities.

[myfunnybunch]

Honestly, when I hear or read the words, I have to look at the context and the speaker to decide what is meant by the terms feminist/feminism. It's one of those words that's been overused, and defined and redefined so many times by so many users that (imo) it has come to mean whatever the user wants it to mean.

 

I now avoid using those terms because I prefer to be more specific so that I don't have to deal with the context/baggage that other people bring to "feminist." I tend to talk about empowerment for women, or equal rights and treatment for women, or the ways that I struggle with the ideas that I should live my life in a particular way because I am a woman.

 

I hope that makes sense. I was talking about this just yesterday with a friend.

 

Cat

[gardenmom5]

If you take a look at the stats, you'll see that pay is very strongly skewed toward men. For all of the times this happens (as in your man acquaintance's case), it happens most often in the direction of the man benefiting. A high degree of the time.

I'd like to see the movement go back to it's founding ideals. along with men not treating women like meat, I'd like to see more being done to get women to stop treating *themselves* like a piece of meat. to stop being so silly. I never bought my dds clothes in the teen girls dept because they were all trashy

 

- when I was pregnant with dudeling, same thing. (I couldn't afford the shops where female excutives bought maternity clothes). I ended up being oh, so glad dudeling was a boy because the trashy girls clothes had made it to the toddler dept.

 

who buys those clothes? women. who puts them on their girls? women.

 

there is a real seperation of women happening - the uber sillies, and the one's who actually pursue their dreams. I'd like to see the so-called feminists, aim their message at the uber sillies that they are worth more than being a piece of meat on display and to have some self-respect.

 

It was one line from Erin Brokovich I really liked. she talked about how she was used to walking in a room and people would look at her (she dressed *very* provacatively - more so than julia roberts did in the movie). after working on that case, she would walk into a room and people wanted to hear what she had to say. that's the message I want these silly girls to get. (and the silly ones need it the most.)

[Aelwydd]

I am a feminist in the sense that I am for the raising up of women to equal status to men, in those areas of society where there remains a gap. In this sense, the root "fem" is appropriate because the inequality being addressed is directly the result of being female, and not any other characteristic of a given person.

 

Years ago, I worked for a company where I had superior education, experience, and skills to young male worker that was hired. He was hired at the same wages I was being paid--not the same starting wage I had, two years previous. He was then given a raise sooner before me. It was not a question of superior performance, because I dressed better, worked harder and longer, and knew more of the business than he did. The only difference was his sex. It was especially galling because our manager was a woman (who was politically conservative, BTW), and I thought if anyone should appreciate making pay commiserate with work ethic and results, AND not counting one's gender against an employee, it should have been her.

 

In that case, yes, I most definitely define myself as a feminist.

 

When talking about those areas of society where neither male nor female has a distinct advantage over the other, or where certain elements of feminism go to extremes in trying to diminish men's rights in order to promote their own, I'm egalitarian.

 

But equality between the genders is and probably always will be a complex and nuanced issue, because biology does differentiate and give each sex inherent advantages and disadvantages. To me, the key is creating a system that does not give one sex a privileged economic, political, or intellectual position over the other on the basis of biological differences alone.

[Laurie4b]

It means that I should be paid the same amount as a man if I do the same work he does.

 

I asked my boss for a raise yesterday. Got it.

 

Then, I found out that a man I have _seniority_ over (by 3 years), and have commensurate evaluations to, has been being paid at this rate for the past 2 years.

 

 

 

That totally stinks. Totally. Sorry.

[Embassy]

To me it means equal rights. I wonder how men would define it.

[misty.warden]

The textbook definition has been said already, and I second it: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. The problem is that equality is hard to enforce without taking away the freedom to choose what is seen as the less equal option.

 

I dislike identifying with feminists is the double standard many of them have. I'm such a 1950's style cis-female (heterosexual, loves cooking and dresses, aspiring SAHM, liking the idea of the husband being head of household) that I have encountered so much negativity from the feminists saying I'm wasting my liberation and making them look bad by not having a high power career. There's so much in-fighting that we don't need the patriarchy to keep us down, we do it for them

 

The message was "Women can and should do what men do" rather than "Women can do what they want even if it is/is not what men do."

[Laurie4b]

I agree; to me, feminism has negative connotations because of the words/actions of some of the leaders in the 60s, some of whom still remain as leaders. Things that are negative for me are put-downs of men, viewing male-female sex as male domination, put-downs of women who choose to spend their lives at home with their kids, and abortion as a kind of holy grail.

 

However, I am a feminist in the sense that I think that women are equal to men and should get equal pay for equal work.

 

Additionally, and this part is harder to articulate, but in many ways, it's a "male world." My experience is that qualities and ways of approaching things that are more commonly found in men are "standard" and women have to adjust. Examples: I think in work situations, men seem to be able to speak up about problems that affect them and it's viewed as "assertive." When women do something that looks very similar, they risk being labeled as "whiners" or "*itches." or in general men seem to like "Give me the bottom line" in communications, even about things involving people, conflict, etc. I find myself being very careful to go in with a "bullet list" in situations that it would be more natural for me to proceed with narrative, or with mentioning people's feelings, etc. I am limited by time now in terms of being able to give more examples, but I wish that men would also adjust and my natural (and what I see more in other women than in men) ways of approaching things, interacting with people, etc. would be accepted and as valid. In other words, that people --both men and women-- in the workplace would make an effort to sometimes meet the other on their own ground.

 

On the other hand, I think that changes in the classrooms of the past couple decades have slanted classrooms to favor girls over boys and that isn't right, either. Many, many colleges now have a disparity in female over male enrollment equivalent to that reverse disparity of male over female college enrollment that prompted the whole "let's redo our educational environment" when the studies came out a couple decades ago. I see no uproar over this state of things. That's wrong, too.

[Rosie_0801]

I suppose second wave feminism was something the movement had to go through, but it was something it needed to grow out of too.