SOCIAL GROUP: Discussing Progressive Christianity

[Ibbygirl]

Jenny, I understand the struggle you are going through. I left my church of 16 years over the holidays and am searching in uncharted waters now. It's not easy, but I feel like every baby step forward I take is leading me closer to where i need to be. The prayer of my heart through this whole process has been, "Lord Jesus, please lead me to your Truth, whatever that may look like." I feel confident that if I keep diligently seeking I will find that truth at the end of my journey. I wish you well on your journey.

[Amethyst]

And now here it is the weekend again, and I should be deciding where I will go Sunday morning. And I just can't work up any enthusiasm for it. I may just skip it this week, but that won't solve the question in the long term. Anyone have any suggestions for me? Denominations I haven't investigated? Rocks I haven't turned over yet? Messages to give myself to bouy my spirits while I search? Those of you who have found spiritual communities that work for you, how did you find them? What was your process? How long did you search, and how did you know you were home?

Hi Jenny! Wow. It sounds like you have done a lot of work. I feel for you. I moved 2.5 years ago and I'm struggling in ways too. My struggles are more about finding some socialization for myself, not a church, but I can related to that searching for a place to fit in feeling. For me, since I'm Catholic, whenever we moved, we just joined the nearest parish. So, I'm no help. But I hope you find a spiritual community soon.

Wow, I really wish I had checked out this thread earlier because the above and the original "definition" of Progressive Christianity are almost exactly where I am. I currently have "Finding Your Religion" to read, which I was told was a more liberal perspective on religion, and I now have a few of the Borg books on hold at my library.

Welcome to the group!

 

I just finished reading Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time by Borg. Is that one of the books you have on hold by any chance?

I'm about half way through Excavating Jesus now and it has come to the point where the authors suggest that the original Christianity was all about sharing and that "agape" or "charity" meant caring by sharing, more specifically sharing food. The idea is that no one goes hungry and that food is shared in such a way that there is not "poor people food" and "rich people food." What do you think of this ?

I just started reading John Dominic Crossan's book The Greatest Prayer. I've only just started but in the introduction he talks briefly about "justice and righteousness" and that this means that God's world must be distributed fairly and equitably among God's people, and that this is what the Lord's Prayer proclaims. He then states that this is not "Liberalism, Socialism, or Communism. It is (if you need and -ism) Godism, Householdism or best of all, Enoughism." In other words, does everyone have enough? Or do some have too much while others have too little?

 

Are you specifically asking about the emphasis on food? I like the idea that there is no rich people food and poor people food. A more equal distribution of all riches seems the ideal to me.

[Onceuponatime]

 

Are you specifically asking about the emphasis on food? I like the idea that there is no rich people food and poor people food. A more equal distribution of all riches seems the ideal to me.

 

 

Yes, I am asking about the emphasis on food. In this book he talks about how Justice is connected to having enough, specifically enough to eat, which is connected to equitable distribution of land. Let me quote:

 

"Why do we find a shift in emphasis from distributive justice with regard to land (Old Testament teaching) to distributive justice with regard to food at the time of Jesus? ......Jesus' emphasis on food rather than on land indicated a ......present necessity. It indicated that the situation ......was too far gone to change the distribution of land.....Even to suggest the just distribution of land.....would almost inevitably have involved violent revolution. All that was still possible was the redistribution of eating and healing, of the material and spiritual bases of life, from the bottom upward. That was the Kingdom of God, on earth.

 

The fundamentally Jewish vision and program of Jesus in the tradition's first layer is land as food and justice as agape. And the fundamentally Jewish basis for that is a theology of creation that not only asks who Made the world, but who Owns it. We, humans, after all, have never suggested that we created the earth, but we normally presume we own it."

 

 

I don't think it is possible to consider equal distribution of All riches. But equal distribution of the basic necessities of life does strike me as a worthy cause, if we are going to consider all of creation as connected and all people as "brothers." When I think of certain countries around the globe that have recieved humanitarian aid food and leaders did not distribute it to the people for whom it was intended but kept it for their own personal use, it seems to illustrate what the author is talking about. Aid that is considered the most caring is almost always in the form of food, or medical services (healing). However, I believe the most effective way to do this would be for people to decide to share freely. This would contribute to the "salvation" of the world.

 

These are just my current thoughts. It certainly makes me look at certain aspects of my own life differently.

[Wheres Toto]

Welcome to the group! I just finished reading Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time by Borg. Is that one of the books you have on hold by any chance?

 

Thank you! Yes, that is one of them. The other is quotes from Jesus and Buddha that he is an editor on, that just looked interesting.

[Jenny in Florida]

Jenny, I understand the struggle you are going through. I left my church of 16 years over the holidays and am searching in uncharted waters now. It's not easy, but I feel like every baby step forward I take is leading me closer to where i need to be. The prayer of my heart through this whole process has been, "Lord Jesus, please lead me to your Truth, whatever that may look like." I feel confident that if I keep diligently seeking I will find that truth at the end of my journey. I wish you well on your journey.

 

Hi Jenny! Wow. It sounds like you have done a lot of work. I feel for you. I moved 2.5 years ago and I'm struggling in ways too. My struggles are more about finding some socialization for myself, not a church, but I can related to that searching for a place to fit in feeling. For me, since I'm Catholic, whenever we moved, we just joined the nearest parish. So, I'm no help. But I hope you find a spiritual community soon.

 

Thanks, both of you.

 

I ended up at a large United Methodist church on Sunday, one that I had seen mentioned on a progressive Christianity message board. It was kind of exciting to be in a large, thriving, busy place, with full pews and lots of things happening in the community. Other than that, though, I can't really evaluate anything about the church, since they had a (fantastic) visiting choir, and the whole service was given over primarily to them. So, there was no sermon, and I didn't get to hear what the music is like on an average Sunday. There weren't even many prayers said aloud. I may go back, since it's the only place I've visited that feels vibrant, and I didn't encounter anything that turned me off right away.

 

Honestly, though, I'm getting depressed about the whole thing. And I'm feeling very alone in the quest. My son will remain connected to the UU church, which is probably healthy and right for him. My daughter is busy most Sundays and not interested enough to get up and get dressed and go with me, and my husband is, shall we say, not supportive. I feel like I'm putting all of this energy into doing something -- or trying to do something -- that matters so much to me, and I'm failing, and I have no support system.

 

Maybe I need a few weeks off.

[Rosie_0801]

"Failing" is an ugly word for "still searching."

 

Maybe you do need a few weeks spent in the manner of the uncarved block. :grouphug:

[Amethyst]

 

 

Maybe you do need a few weeks spent in the manner of the uncarved block. :grouphug:

 

Hey, Rosie. I'm reading The Tao of Pooh because you mentioned it here. It's interesting, quick reading. It seems to be a good introduction to Taoism. So now I know what the uncarved block is. I'd probably have to do more research to more fully appreciate Taoism, but right now the biggest stumbling block for me seems like it will be the disdain it seems to have for "book learning". That might be a tough one for me to swallow. Or perhaps further readings would elucidate how someone with a doctorate (like me) can feel comfortable with that aspect of Taoism. It certainly has many aspects that sound nice. But that's the one that's tough for me.

[Rosie_0801]

Hey, Rosie. I'm reading The Tao of Pooh because you mentioned it here. It's interesting, quick reading. It seems to be a good introduction to Taoism. So now I know what the uncarved block is. I'd probably have to do more research to more fully appreciate Taoism, but right now the biggest stumbling block for me seems like it will be the disdain it seems to have for "book learning". That might be a tough one for me to swallow. Or perhaps further readings would elucidate how someone with a doctorate (like me) can feel comfortable with that aspect of Taoism. It certainly has many aspects that sound nice. But that's the one that's tough for me.

 

 

Who said you had to take any trouble to fully appreciate Taoism? :confused1: You don't owe it anything!

 

I've always figured it was not book learning that was the problem, but people who learn a great deal from books, but don't allow that knowledge to affect them. For example, my sister with an honours degree in Anthropology who couldn't think of a reason to be bothered making any effort to be an informed voter. This same sister now has a Masters degree in International Aid work (not what it is actually called, but I forget the official title,) who favours Israel over Palestine because she's Christian. Yup. A Masters degree she did very well in, a honours degree where she missed out on first class honours by only one mark (I think she should have appealed) and that's the best argument she could or would give! Obviously she can make a good argument in an essay, but she can't outside of one.

 

But I have never read the Tao Te Ching, so I'm not speaking on behalf of Taoism. I'm just bleating my own opinion :p

[Amethyst]

 

I've always figured it was not book learning that was the problem, but people who learn a great deal from books, but don't allow that knowledge to affect them.

 

Ok. I might be able to work with this. Thanks.

[Amethyst]

Thanks, both of you.

 

I ended up at a large United Methodist church on Sunday, one that I had seen mentioned on a progressive Christianity message board. It was kind of exciting to be in a large, thriving, busy place, with full pews and lots of things happening in the community. Other than that, though, I can't really evaluate anything about the church, since they had a (fantastic) visiting choir, and the whole service was given over primarily to them. So, there was no sermon, and I didn't get to hear what the music is like on an average Sunday. There weren't even many prayers said aloud. I may go back, since it's the only place I've visited that feels vibrant, and I didn't encounter anything that turned me off right away.

 

Honestly, though, I'm getting depressed about the whole thing. And I'm feeling very alone in the quest. My son will remain connected to the UU church, which is probably healthy and right for him. My daughter is busy most Sundays and not interested enough to get up and get dressed and go with me, and my husband is, shall we say, not supportive. I feel like I'm putting all of this energy into doing something -- or trying to do something -- that matters so much to me, and I'm failing, and I have no support system.

 

Maybe I need a few weeks off.

 

Maybe rather than a few weeks off, you need to give the church a few more weeks? Or months? From my experience, it can take quite a while to feel comfortable at a new church.

[Halcyon]

Jenny-

I struggled for 2 years to find a church in Florida when we moved here from NYC. In NYC, I was a member of a wonderful, HUGE, vibrant, LGBT friendly church in downtown Manhattan with an amazing choir, so much history, ritual, moving sermons (they're available online if anyone is interested)....it was fantastic for me. My kids liked it okay. They were younger then, and didn't do Sunday school but just a care program while i was in church. The choir was amazing (they just sang with the Rolling Stones in a kind of gospel rock mashup a few weeks ago) and it was so moving. The building itself was/is gorgeous also.

 

Anyway, when we moved here every church was just....way....too....conservative. Very evangelical, non-denominational, literalist. The sermons were punchy and young and the pastor wore jeans and they were praise bands that played pseudo rock but really..not for me. I needed something deep. Something moving. Not something that told me that disciplining my kids with my hands was the best way, or that had pro life speakers come to talk politics. I looked for about a year and then gave up. My husband is Jewish, and I just found myself struggling to figure out what it was I believed in. I mean, why were churches and their sermons SO very different in the North? Why did they resonate with me so much more? Is it because it was "the big city" and the pastors were just ..... better at speaking? Or was Christianity itself not what I thought it was? Was it really rules and politics and "doing the right thing" and "having the right theology"? (Really, a good friend who attends a very conservative church said this to me when I found a church, finally. I told her about the good they were doing in the community, and the outreach and the sense of caring..and she asked "It sounds good, but make sure you check their theology." :crying:

 

So about 9 months ago I found a church, a UCC church, after checking them out on the recommendations of this board. I had mostly been looking at Episcopal churches, but down here, Episcopal is....different than up north :glare: . I miss the sacraments, the incense, the ritual. But the church is okay for us. It's not perfect. The sermons are sometimes uninspiring, and tend to focus more on the downtrodden, the pain, the hurt of life than I would like. I mean, there's absolutely a place for that, but sometimes you want your sermons to leave you feeling uplifted and joyous, right? Anyway, the kids really like it, even though it has a tiny kids' program. There is lots of room for me to get involved and I have. I was recently asked to join their leadership committee and I am going to help them figure out how to attract more families to the church. I love their outreach to the community and their stance on the tomato pickers here in Florida and the slavery conditions they live under. I hadn't found a church that paid much attention to those things, so that's good. And I am slowly, very slowly, getting to know people. I tend to be quiet and not able to introduce myself to new people in large groups like that, so it hasn't been easy. But for now, it's good.

 

I hope you find the right fit for you. And keep in mind that it often takes a few visits to find a fit. I too visited quite a few churches that had zero "zip" to them. It was almost depressing to sit there. (My church in NYC had thousands of people; perhaps too large in many ways, but WOW the collective energy was wonderful). So I do miss that.

 

Good luck.

[lovemykids]

Jenny-

I struggled for 2 years to find a church in Florida when we moved here from NYC. In NYC, I was a member of a wonderful, HUGE, vibrant, LGBT friendly church in downtown Manhattan with an amazing choir, so much history, ritual, moving sermons (they're available online if anyone is interested)....it was fantastic for me. My kids liked it okay. They were younger then, and didn't do Sunday school but just a care program while i was in church. The choir was amazing (they just sang with the Rolling Stones in a kind of gospel rock mashup a few weeks ago) and it was so moving. The building itself was/is gorgeous also.

 

Anyway, when we moved here every church was just....way....too....conservative. Very evangelical, non-denominational, literalist. The sermons were punchy and young and the pastor wore jeans and they were praise bands that played pseudo rock but really..not for me. I needed something deep. Something moving. Not something that told me that disciplining my kids with my hands was the best way, or that had pro life speakers come to talk politics. I looked for about a year and then gave up. My husband is Jewish, and I just found myself struggling to figure out what it was I believed in. I mean, why were churches and their sermons SO very different in the North? Why did they resonate with me so much more? Is it because it was "the big city" and the pastors were just ..... better at speaking? Or was Christianity itself not what I thought it was? Was it really rules and politics and "doing the right thing" and "having the right theology"? (Really, a good friend who attends a very conservative church said this to me when I found a church, finally. I told her about the good they were doing in the community, and the outreach and the sense of caring..and she asked "It sounds good, but make sure you check their theology." :crying:

 

I hope you find the right fit for you. And keep in mind that it often takes a few visits to find a fit. I too visited quite a few churches that had zero "zip" to them. It was almost depressing to sit there. (My church in NYC had thousands of people; perhaps too large in many ways, but WOW the collective energy was wonderful). So I do miss that.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Oh my goodness, I have witnessed this too. Going to church in the North versus the South can be very, very different, even within the same denomination. It’s a whole ‘nother ball game..LOL! Culture differences can even affect the most unified types of religions.

 

Good luck with finding your niche, Jenny. Just pray hard and keep trying; you can find the way for yourself.

[Amethyst]

Hey Jenny, the weekend is coming. What have you decided to do about church this weekend? Have you decided?

 

We've gotten into a rhythm of going to church every other Sunday and on the alternate Sundays we get my dh's uncle out of the nursing home and do something with him. I can't say that I'm happy with the situation, but my dh and I are both struggling with religion right now. My dh can't stand to sit still so Mass bothers him. He'd rather be doing something active. I don't quite understand why we can't do both on the same day, or get his uncle on Saturday and do Mass on Sunday, but dh says taking his uncle out of the nursing home just wipes him out. My second son recently declared himself an atheist. He's a wonderful boy and I can't say that I've instilled a deep faith, so I don't feel awful about that. He's also usually a very agreeable person but during the summer made it perfectly clear that he no longer wanted to go to Mass. I feel like that is something we've always done together, so I regret we don't do that any more as a family. But I told him that I would not force him to go, and I asked if for special occasions (weddings, funerals, holidays) he would consider going with us and he did for Christmas and I expect he will other times. Oh well. This son and my older daughter used to be in church choir together but son did not join this year and dd had a falling out with her girl friend in the choir so now she no longer goes to choir. So that has given us more reason to avoid church. (Or I should say, choir used to give us a reason to go that we no longer have.) We tried a new parish this past month. I like it. It's a beautiful building and the sermon was pretty good. Dh is not sold on it. He feels like since this parish has a Catholic school associated with it, all the resources will go to that and all the families will be from the school and it will make it hard for us to break into that social group. Oh brother. It sounds like I only go to church for the social aspects. That may be true at this point. Ugh.

 

So what about the rest of you? Do you have a regular church? Still looking for the perfect church? Given up on church?

[ktgrok]

Thanks, both of you.

 

I ended up at a large United Methodist church on Sunday, one that I had seen mentioned on a progressive Christianity message board. It was kind of exciting to be in a large, thriving, busy place, with full pews and lots of things happening in the community. Other than that, though, I can't really evaluate anything about the church, since they had a (fantastic) visiting choir, and the whole service was given over primarily to them. So, there was no sermon, and I didn't get to hear what the music is like on an average Sunday. There weren't even many prayers said aloud. I may go back, since it's the only place I've visited that feels vibrant, and I didn't encounter anything that turned me off right away.

 

Honestly, though, I'm getting depressed about the whole thing. And I'm feeling very alone in the quest. My son will remain connected to the UU church, which is probably healthy and right for him. My daughter is busy most Sundays and not interested enough to get up and get dressed and go with me, and my husband is, shall we say, not supportive. I feel like I'm putting all of this energy into doing something -- or trying to do something -- that matters so much to me, and I'm failing, and I have no support system.

 

Maybe I need a few weeks off.

 

 

Jenny, you are always welcome to attend with me and the kids. May not be what you are looking for...we don't have filled pews and the priest is probably more conservative than you are searching for, but she is sweet.

[lovemykids]

Update: After a few days of talking, it seems there is a need to clarify what is meant by the term "Progressive Christianity" in the title of this thread. Although everyone who has an interest is welcome to participate, I'm going to ask that those who wish to come in and chat recognize that our conversation here begins with the following definition:

 

By calling ourselves progressive, we mean we are Christians who…

 

1. Believe that following the path and teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness and experience of the Sacred and the Oneness and Unity of all life;

2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness and Oneness of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom in our spiritual journey;

3. Seek community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to:

• Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
  
• Believers and agnostics,
  
• Women and men,
  
• Those of all sexual orientations and gender identities,
  
• Those of all classes and abilities;
  

4. Know that the way we behave towards one another is the fullest expression of what we believe;

5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning than in absolutes;

6. Strive for peace and justice among all people;

7. Strive to protect and restore the integrity of our Earth;

8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love.

 

This statement comes from the website for the Center for Progressive Christianity (www.progressivechristianity.org). It's not a "statement of faith," just as good a place to start as any. It's not required that you completely accept every idea in order to come in here and chat, but I'd ask that posters be respectful of the fact that these ideas do resonate for many (most?) of the folks here.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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.I'm looking forward to reading what others are thinking, feeling, reading and exploring!

 

I read Living the Questions and I really enjoyed it. I also enjoy Marcus Borg immensely and have read a few of his books! However, my faith in a (mostly) literal Bible remains strong. I identify somewhat with the description of “Progressive Christianityâ€, which seems to focus more on the teachings of Jesus and God's vast love for humankind. Putting an end to discrimination, injustice, and building up our compassion for one another are certainly attractive in my book.

[Wheres Toto]

I'm doing pretty good back at a UMC church. Interestingly, in today's bulletin was a quote by Marcus Borg. I'm about 1/2 way through Meeting Jesus Again For The First Time, and I"m really enjoying it.

[hands-on-mama]

I would like to come back and post here when I have time to read tomorrow. I live in an area where Southern Baptists prevail. I very much believe in God, but my beliefs do not line up with the churches here at all. One thing I really struggle with is now judgmental they are towards the gay/lesbian community. Don't agree with it at all. My husband and I are way too liberal for their tastes. ;p

[faiths13]

Hi! I just saw this thread and I find it really interesting. I wasm't exactly raised as a Mormon, but I did attend the Mormon church often as a child with my grandmother and then with my sister who was older. Then as a teen I decided I was an atheist for a few years, until I met a guy who completely opened up my eyes to a new way to look at God. He was Wiccan, and I really liked a lot of the ideas of Paganism. So I studies that and Buddhism for years. Then when I had my first son and my dh left me and my whole life fell apart I pretty much lost sight of my spirituality. It was in there somewhere, but too far away really.

Over the past 5 years or so I have had a deep longing to get back in touch with it and go to church. I tried to go to a Christian church, but I just have an animosity towards so many aspects of it because how many people Ive met who have been so judgmental and rude about their religion. So it took another few years and then I found the UU church. Like a few others have said here, I just didnt feel it left much room for growth. Then I found the Unity Church, which opened my eyes to Christianity and Jesus for the first time ever. It really enlightened me to the fact that the Bible doesn't need to be taken literally, and that it has a wealth of knowledge in it, just waiting to be tapped into. I just dont want to be told Im a sinner and going to hell. Anyway, we moved and the Unity church is farther than I would like to go. Also, after a couple of months I just wasnt quite feeling it anymore.

So we went to a nearby Presbyterian church and it was very different from any other Christian church I have seen or been to before. It was pretty nice. So I am very interested in reading the Bible, but I am really wanting a way to help interpret it and understand it so as to not take it literally. Does anyone know a good resource or book that could help me with that?

[Joanne]

I had a realization today while reading Anatomy of the Spirit. My realization belongs here more than the "alternative" spirituality thread. I realized that when I dumped Christianity as a label, I became free to embrace parts of it. I became free to "pick and choose" because I am NOT held to a standard that I have come to see as arbitrary, patriarchal, arhaic, and limiting.

 

Ironic that in shedding the label, I was able to more fully accept Jesus (though still non the way Christians would typically have me).

[SunnyDays]

I've been reading the thread but hadn't had much to contribute. I've been posting on the Lutheran thread and following some of the other religious groups out of curiosity. I'm realizing there's a lot I don't know about different faith stances!! :)

 

Joanne, that's an interesting way of putting it... I think it's a very accurate idea that shedding the label leaves you free to clarify your beliefs. I still hold to a more traditional Christian faith (like I said, I'm more middle of the road than anything), but I'm having a similar experience realizing that I don't really fit a "conservative" or "evangelical" Christian label anymore, and it leads me to think more deeply about different aspects of the faith.

 

Jenny... also curious how your quest for a church is going and what you ended up doing this weekend. It can be tough to find a good fit. We bopped around to a lot of different churches for a while, and the huge ELCA church we now attend doesn't check *every* single box for us, but overall it's a very good fit. Hugs to you as you continue the journey!!

[Amethyst]

I had a realization today while reading Anatomy of the Spirit. My realization belongs here more than the "alternative" spirituality thread. I realized that when I dumped Christianity as a label, I became free to embrace parts of it. I became free to "pick and choose" because I am NOT held to a standard that I have come to see as arbitrary, patriarchal, arhaic, and limiting.

 

Ironic that in shedding the label, I was able to more fully accept Jesus (though still non the way Christians would typically have me).

Joanne, this book sounds interesting. Do you think it is something that faiths13 would enjoy?

 

Welcome to the group, faiths13!

[Onceuponatime]

I've started a new book: Jesus and Paul by James Tabor. It is awsome! I'm only through the introduction and I am so impressed. This guy knows his stuff. He is an expert on Paul and has made him his life's study. The book basically covers how modern Christianity is really Pauline and not based on Jesus's original teachings. He goes through the new testament books and shows where Paul's teachings have influenced scripture, his relationship with the originial Christians who actually heard Jesus teach, and why the books that claim to be written by him, but weren't, were written. It is much more comprehensive than Borg's book on Paul.

[Halcyon]

I've started a new book: Jesus and Paul by James Tabor. It is awsome! I've only gotten through the introduction and I am so impressed. This guy knows his stuff. He is an expert on Paul and has made him his life's study. The book basically covers how modern Christianity is really Pauline and not based on Jesus's original teachings. He goes through the new testament books and shows where Paul's teachings have influenced scripture, his relationship with the originial Christians who actually heard Jesus teach, and why the books that claim to be written by him but weren't were written. It is much more comprehensive than Borg's book on Paul.

 

 

 

Thank you for this! I really appreciate it. They have this in my library so I just put it on hold.

 

A short ebook which I really have enjoyed and thought others might too is: The Freedom of Self-Forgetting. Only .99.

[SunnyDays]

The Tabor book looks really good.

 

You know, I find it interesting how many Christian women have trouble with Paul. I don't think it's just the "submission" bit either... there's something else going on. If you compare Paul's "tone" in scripture to the words of Jesus, I think there's a big difference... anyone else have the slightest clue what I mean?? :)

[Pawz4me]

The Tabor book looks really good.

 

You know, I find it interesting how many Christian women have trouble with Paul. I don't think it's just the "submission" bit either... there's something else going on. If you compare Paul's "tone" in scripture to the words of Jesus, I think there's a big difference... anyone else have the slightest clue what I mean?? :)

 

I can't better explain what you mean, but I totally agree. It's one of the reasons, I think, that I have so much trouble with finding a good church "fit." Christianity is much more heavily into Paul than into Jesus, it seems to me. And all too often give more weight to his words than to those of Jesus.

[Onceuponatime]

The Tabor book is giving me a revelation on every other page. It's pretty hard to get so many preconcieved ideas and life long teachings ripped out of you and replaced at one sitting. At least he does a better job of replacing the old teachings with new information than Borg did. It's still gut-wrenching in spite of the fact that I went looking for it. I can't help thinking that all this is preparing me for something to come. Is that naive?

[Amethyst]

I was at church on Sunday. The first reading was from the Old Testament. I don't know...Deuteronomy maybe...I forget. But it talked, as it frequently does, about the Chosen People. For some reason that really really irked me on Sunday. Nothing against the Jews, I just hate the idea of God playing favorites. It makes absolutely no sense. Whatsoever. I'm really fed up.

[Onceuponatime]

I was at church on Sunday. The first reading was from the Old Testament. I don't know...Deuteronomy maybe...I forget. But it talked, as it frequently does, about the Chosen People. For some reason that really really irked me on Sunday. Nothing against the Jews, I just hate the idea of God playing favorites. It makes absolutely no sense. Whatsoever. I'm really fed up.

 

I was taught in Christianity that the Jews were chosen for the purpose of being the conduit for the Christ so he could save the world.

 

 

Save the world from what you might ask. Tyranny. Oppression. Poverty. Disease. The Law appears to be the blueprint for a utopian society on Earth. This requires acceptance of the Jewish way of life.

 

Or

 

Save the world from it's sins, so anyone can become a new "spiritually" chosen person, sons and daughters of God in Heaven with a new spiritual body and life. Because, frankly this life on Earth is the pits and noone can fix it. This requires the acceptance of Jesus as the first to be resurrected from the dead as a son of God. He is also divine, because no mere human is perfect enough to redeem the rest of humanity.

 

 

The Bible is hyperfocused on the God of Israel because it is the religious document of one people. There were other peoples in the world with their own patron gods. Patron gods were once regional, attached to the land. Israel's God became different, a mobile, jealous God who wanted no competition. If the various books of the Bible had not been written and preserved, He might have gone the way of all the other gods we never hear of. The Bible's staying power is pretty amazing.

 

I understand your frustration. I'm having an internal crisis myself. It is very hard to sit and listen to things that are not relevant and no longer make sense. I took one of those "belief quizzes" recently and got a score of %100 liberal Quaker, 99% Unitarian Universalist, 99% Unity. I only meshed with my own denomination 11%. Potentially, I have a lot to lose. My husband, children, father, brother, and most of my friends, belong to the kind of church I attend. I don't think they would understand. So, I remain a hypocrite, perhaps for life.

[Amethyst]

I was taught in Christianity that the Jews were chosen for the purpose of being the conduit for the Christ so he could save the world.

 

 

Save the world from what you might ask. Tyranny. Oppression. Poverty. Disease. The Law appears to be the blueprint for a utopian society on Earth. This requires acceptance of the Jewish way of life.

 

Or

 

Save the world from it's sins, so anyone can become a new "spiritually" chosen person, sons and daughters of God in Heaven with a new spiritual body and life. Because, frankly this life on Earth is the pits and noone can fix it. This requires the acceptance of Jesus as the first to be resurrected from the dead as a son of God. He is also divine, because no mere human is perfect enough to redeem the rest of humanity.

 

 

The Bible is hyperfocused on the God of Israel because it is the religious document of one people. There were other peoples in the world with their own patron gods. Patron gods were once regional, attached to the land. Israel's God became different, a mobile, jealous God who wanted no competition. If the various books of the Bible had not been written and preserved, He might have gone the way of all the other gods we never hear of. The Bible's staying power is pretty amazing.

 

I understand your frustration. I'm having an internal crisis myself. It is very hard to sit and listen to things that are not relevant and no longer make sense. I took one of those "belief quizzes" recently and got a score of %100 liberal Quaker, 99% Unitarian Universalist, 99% Unity. I only meshed with my own denomination 11%. Potentially, I have a lot to lose. My husband, children, father, brother, and most of my friends, belong to the kind of church I attend. I don't think they would understand. So, I remain a hypocrite, perhaps for life.

 

 

Ok, so I'm supposed to believe that God chose the Jewish people 1000 years ahead of the birth of Christ just so that Jesus would be Jewish and would therefore be able to change the world using his Jewish-ness? Ugh. It still doesn't make sense. And perhaps that's my whole problem. I want religion to make sense. My dh keeps telling me that religion is an emotional thing and I can't look for logic there.

[Onceuponatime]

 

Ok, so I'm supposed to believe that God chose the Jewish people 1000 years ahead of the birth of Christ just so that Jesus would be Jewish and would therefore be able to change the world using his Jewish-ness? Ugh. It still doesn't make sense. And perhaps that's my whole problem. I want religion to make sense. My dh keeps telling me that religion is an emotional thing and I can't look for logic there.

 

Well, yes, some people would say that is what you are supposed to believe, or something along those lines. To many it makes perfect sense. The idea is that God did not choose the Jews because they are special, but they are special because God chose them. Some Christians would say God chose the Jews to bring Jesus into the world to save it. If I understand correctly, some Jews still believe a Messiah is coming who will bring all nations to God in some way. If you believe that someone must save humanity from its wickedness, where would he come from but a group of people who had been given special understanding of God, the world, and how to live in it?

 

This is just to show that there is a kind of logic in it, if you believe that God chose the Jews to begin with. There is always the possibility that somewhere in their history they decided for themselves that they were chosen. That is also assuming you believe there is a God that is the same God as the one in the Bible, and that he actually exists. There is the possibility that he started out as one of the many man-made regional gods and was transformed into the God of the Bible throughout time.

 

I don't think that religion is as much an emotional thing as it is an acceptance thing. Many religions contain the concept of submission and surrender. That sure makes it a lot easier to accept many teachings and philosophies. I've never been a very emotional person, but in the past I have accepted things that I can't now. I'm still teetering on the fence in this area. How much do I still accept? If I don't accept it does it mean I must reject it?

 

People who accept a religion wholeheartedly may be more content, or maybe they just think they are. :rolleyes:

[Aelwydd]

 

 

 

Yes, I am asking about the emphasis on food. In this book he talks about how Justice is connected to having enough, specifically enough to eat, which is connected to equitable distribution of land. Let me quote:

 

"Why do we find a shift in emphasis from distributive justice with regard to land (Old Testament teaching) to distributive justice with regard to food at the time of Jesus? ......Jesus' emphasis on food rather than on land indicated a ......present necessity. It indicated that the situation ......was too far gone to change the distribution of land.....Even to suggest the just distribution of land.....would almost inevitably have involved violent revolution. All that was still possible was the redistribution of eating and healing, of the material and spiritual bases of life, from the bottom upward. That was the Kingdom of God, on earth.

 

The fundamentally Jewish vision and program of Jesus in the tradition's first layer is land as food and justice as agape. And the fundamentally Jewish basis for that is a theology of creation that not only asks who Made the world, but who Owns it. We, humans, after all, have never suggested that we created the earth, but we normally presume we own it."

 

 

I don't think it is possible to consider equal distribution of All riches. But equal distribution of the basic necessities of life does strike me as a worthy cause, if we are going to consider all of creation as connected and all people as "brothers." When I think of certain countries around the globe that have recieved humanitarian aid food and leaders did not distribute it to the people for whom it was intended but kept it for their own personal use, it seems to illustrate what the author is talking about. Aid that is considered the most caring is almost always in the form of food, or medical services (healing). However, I believe the most effective way to do this would be for people to decide to share freely. This would contribute to the "salvation" of the world.

 

These are just my current thoughts. It certainly makes me look at certain aspects of my own life differently.

 

 

I agree. I would add that Jesus' ministry, and his life on Earth, were centered on the poor, with the rich and the powerful on the outskirts. A fascinating juxtaposition of the usual norm, where it is the people "in power" are left on the outside "looking in."

 

The first shall be last, and the last shall be first.

[8circles]

I agree. I would add that Jesus' ministry, and his life on Earth, were centered on the poor, with the rich and the powerful on the outskirts. A fascinating juxtaposition of the usual norm, where it is the people "in power" are left on the outside "looking in."

 

The first shall be last, and the last shall be first.

 

 

Thanks for bumping this back up, Rebekah. I've been thinking of the post you quoted since I read it weeks ago but didn't remember where it was.

 

Onceuponatime, this is a very interesting point to me - lots of thinking to do...

[briansmama]

Ok. I am sooo happy to find this thread today! I really need some advice from other progressive Christian families here.

 

Long story short, my dc participate in a science field program that incorporates respect for the earth, animal tracking and awareness, wilderness survival skills, animal and plant identification, etc. The instructors include quite a bit of Native American skills and crafts, and some nature songs in the program.

 

I recently posted info on the program to our Christian homeschooling group of about 400 families. Now, I know that there are some very conservative families in this group, but (I thought) there are also a lot of other moms like me- interested in letting our children learn about other cultural traditions, especially in the context of wilderness survival skills and care for the earth.

 

Another family posted that the program is New Age and anti-Christian, and pleaded with other members to not allow their dc to attend this program. Several others chimed in with scripture about New Age practices on the rise, etc.

 

Another family in the group and I responded back that Native American skills are different from New Age practices.

 

Progressive Christians, thoughts?? Is this group just waaaay too conservative for our family? I just don't feel that Native American skills are anti-Christian and related to New Age practices.

[Wheres Toto]

I don't completely understand why New Age practices are anti-Christian, but I definitely wouldn't consider Native American skills New Age. :confused1:

 

It seems some people think that anything remotely spiritual that isn't explicitly Christian is automatically anti-Christian.

[Halcyon]

That would drive me nuts Briansmama, and I could see it happening in our local Christian group. Which is why I am not a member. In some ways, I wish i COULD be--it's the main hs-ing group here, lots of families, lots of great opportunities. But that (plus the statement of faith, which I won't sign) prevent us from joining.

[briansmama]

Thank you Dottie and Halcyon! I feel better :)

[Onceuponatime]

I'm glad this thread resurfaced. I just finished reading Ichabod Toward Home by Walter Brueggemann and have some thoughts/questions. The author starts out exploring an Old Testament story about the Philistines defeating Israel and taking the ark of the covenant. Bad Things happen until they decide to let it go back to the Israelites. The book moves rather slowly until it morphs into something else, a treatise on how we approach scripture.

 

So, eventually Mr. Brueggemann says that if modern/ postmodern Christians are going to continue to take the Bible seriously, they are going to have move beyond safe readings that depend on "history," "reason," or "canon." He also says we need to develop an intertextual way of reading the Bible that uses our imagination.

 

Bluntly, historical criticism doesn't matter. Working out the specific intended meaning of a text doesn't matter. Traditions of the church about a text don't matter. What matters is how we interact with the text. We should be willing to go where we have never gone before, looking forward not back.

 

This requires that we approach the text with "an intertextual attentiveness that discovers that this text sends out lines and lineaments to many other texts, many other scenarios, some Jewish, some Christian, some exilic, some late......The intertextual requires us to have all the texts in purview not just the ones we like, not just the ones familiar, in order to read any one text well." This sounds to me like he wants to make old fashioned rabbis of us all, lol.

 

I don't see the common Christian doing this kind of study. It seems more appropriate for dedicated scholars. I've always been in a tradition that says it values individual research and study, not relying on anyone person to tell you what "God's word" means. But in my experience, most people rely on what their leaders say. It saves a lot of time and effort in this modern, fast paced world. One of Brueggeman's points, however, was how we let the modern world swallow us and do not spend time to think, reflect, and just be.

 

I think I understand what he is trying to say, but I also think it is very unrealistic to expect, or even suggest, that people will set aside their established methods of approaching the Bible to go exploring with their imaginations. We are so addicted to being right and to having specific answers to specific questions. I can imagine it taking hundreds of years for most of Christendom to perhaps come around to his way of thinking, if something else doesn't come along in the meantime to lead them in another direction.

 

Which all leads me to wonder, what is the purpose of religion anyway? Was Marx right, is it really an opium for the people? What place does critical thinking have in religion?

 

""Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."