Reality dating/courtship?

[Joan in GE]

When one ds was recently discussing the activity he was going to be doing with a female friend, the idea that popped into my mind was that they should 'work' together rather than 'play' together....

 

Over the last couple of years I've been noticing the work that young couples do with young children and thinking how unlike the typical 'dating' experience 'real life' is....And suddenly the whole notion of getting to know someone by going to dinner and movies or perhaps even 'healthier' activities seemed like such an inadequate way to get to know what someone is really like....

 

What do they do when the brick falls on their foot? or children are screaming in confusion around them? or they need to be doing 5 things at once and change a baby's diaper?

 

This isn't a question of dating vs courtship and all that....

 

So I've been wondering if any of yours have done this kind of thing? should we call it 'reality dating' or 'reality courtship'? or something along these lines...

 

Joan

[dirty ethel rackham]

I think there needs to be a combination of both work and play together. If all you do in your lives together is work, the relationship can stagnate and die. Knowing how to keep the "play" in life during those exhausting early childhood years can really help a relationship in the long run.

[regentrude]

I find the whole "dating" construction highly artificial. In my home country, you don't "date". You happen to meet somebody doing something, and gradually spend more time together doing all kinds of things. Asking a person to have dinner or to see a movie is not fraught with meaning, because it is simply an innocent activity and does not imply any deeper romantic interest - yes, you might ask the person whom you are in love with, but you also might ask a casual friend. Takes a lot of pressure off by not making it a big deal with lots of expectations attached.

 

My friends who are married or in relationships met while doing something: taking classes in college, working, being engaged in an activity. They began cultivating their relationship at school, work, at the activity and eventually did things outside this context. I met DH first year in college; we spent a lot of time together studying and rock climbing - that's where we got to know each other very, very well. So, in a sense, both work and play.

We occasionally went to the theatre or to dinner, too, but I agree that this is really not how you get to know a person.

I dislike the whole dating culture, because IMO it puts an undue pressure on both participants and gets in the way of simply getting to know a person.

[Joan in GE]

Ok - we'll say work and play - but definitely some/a lot of work in there. :-).

 

I agree that a couple needs to know how to 'play' together - but I think of play more along the lines of what regentrude is describing - fun things, not going to dinner....now that I'm thinking more critically about this....

 

I don't know whether it is a city vs country thing, but watching one ds, here young people tend to go out in groups more than what I remember in the US....but still it tends to be city focused, occasionally they'll go skiing together and sometimes hiking.....I can't remember them volunteering together as a group.....

 

Ohhhh yes - that the focus is not on each other so much...but on reaching out in the world, doing things for others....

 

And the situations seem to generally be artificial.....don't want to say too much personal info about ds since the boards are more open these days....But I wonder - how would these young people adapt to the realities of life when children come along?

 

Joan

 

 

.

[regentrude]

...But I wonder - how would these young people adapt to the realities of life when children come along?

 

I do not think anything I did before kids prepared me for the realities of being a parent. It was also not a goal I had when I was younger; kids were far from my mind, I did not feel that I wanted to become a mother until I was at the right stage in my life (and in a relationship with DH for ten years!)- and we figured it out then.

For my kids' relationships, I believe they can learn the important skills of patience, compromising, perseverance in a variety of different circumstances. Rock climbing for example taught me to put things into perspective, LOL. Backpacking in the mountains, with a group, exhausted and sometimes cold, taught us all a lot about team work, patience, overcoming obstacles - skills that translate wonderfully into parenting. For others, it is playing in an orchestra together, singing in a choir, performing in community theatre, training horses.... I believe any of these activities are character building and teach valuable lessons about interacting with others. They don't have to practice all of this with their future spouses, or with the explicit goal of preparing for parenting.

 

I believe most young people are engaged in some sort of activity that teaches "real" life skills. So, I am not worried.

[bugs]

I do not think anything I did before kids prepared me for the realities of being a parent. It was also not a goal I had when I was younger; kids were far from my mind, I did not feel that I wanted to become a mother until I was at the right stage in my life.

 

Yikes! :iagree: This for me too.

 

I think it is all in stages. My barely 16 yo dd volunteered at a Christian camp last summer. While she was there she worked and played with other volunteers and had a lot of independence. She had stressful times while there as well. She came back indeed more mature and independent, but the scenario wasn't real life. She had someone else taking care of her basic needs and the nature of the camp in general was in semi-controlled conditions. She (and others) developed romatic relationships - yet the reality of the real world has ended hers.

 

I agree that the best way to "date" is to be doing the things you enjoy and reduce the "staged" dates to a minimum.

 

I've gotta stop typing, the response at this time is slow and the delay is driving me nut-so.

[angela in ohio]

My oldest is. They work, learn, or serve. They have frequently handled stressful situations together, and they are learning from it each time.

 

Not at liberty to say much more, in the interest of her privacy. :) I just wanted to let you know that you aren't the only one with that opinion/observation.

[Joan in GE]

I do not think anything I did before kids prepared me for the realities of being a parent.

:rofl:

 

It was also not a goal I had when I was younger; kids were far from my mind,

I guess I wish I had been better prepared....I did rock climbing and back packing in the rain leading younger girls, camp counselor, etc....and some of the others you mention....they just didn't really prepare me for the reality of 24/7 perhaps esp for the element of moral guidance, the seriousness of those young years when a small child is observing so much and you don't realize how it will all come out in years to come.......

 

Perhaps it's only living in a large family where one is required to help, or as an au pair where you would have more responsibility, observe the getting up in the middle of the night, having sick and crying children while trying to put dinner on the table...?....I actually grew up in a large family but, I hate to say it, did not help that much...I can never remember changing diapers and didn't have cooking responsibility, eg....

 

She (and others) developed romatic relationships - yet the reality of the real world has ended hers.

 

I agree that the best way to "date" is to be doing the things you enjoy and reduce the "staged" dates to a minimum.

 

Yeah - camp can be a whole other world.....very fun....You do get practice managing a group of kids as a counselor....Hmmm trying to think what makes it less real...is it being responsible for all the same aged kids - and perhaps older children who do not require constant attention...Babies require constant attention or awareness...

 

 

My oldest is. They work, learn, or serve. They have frequently handled stressful situations together, and they are learning from it each time.

 

Not at liberty to say much more, in the interest of her privacy. :) I just wanted to let you know that you aren't the only one with that opinion/observation.

 

Thank you Angela....Is there any way of saying what kind of work and still be private?

 

We went to a job/education fair today and even though dd doesn't want to become a preschool teacher, it is possible to spend time helping in such a place (yes 8FTH - I was thinking of your advice) to get an idea of what it is like...I realize this is not so realistic either but better than nothing...

 

Maybe it is even harder for males to get the real life experience that would give them some idea of what it is like to be a father????

 

Joan

[Joan in GE]

Hi loesje!

 

I think I understand what you are trying to say...

 

Do you think you really can be prepared for Parenthood?

 

I hesitate to say yes.

You can do 'jobs', you can learn 'skills', you can take 'responsibilities', but you will never feel that 24h/day, 7d/week feeling a parent has, until you are the parent. All the other things will be 'temperorily'.

 

I agree that one cannot know really what it will be like to be a parent.

 

When I was 'learning to know' DH, I wasn't looking for a father of my (hopefully to become) children (afterall they will leave the house) but someone who I liked enough to share all the days of my live, someone I want to become old with. I think you are looking with a different perspective

 

I'm not sure this is the right way to say what I think, so I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

I think you are right about the reason for marriage....

 

But it seems like there are so many divorces 'after' people have had children that somehow the reality of childrearing was 'too' far from people's mind....If the prechild relationship was just about focus on each other, then when the focus is turned to the children (though I don't think the children should be king of the house - that's not what I'm trying to say), mates can feel like they are suffering from lack of attention and look elsewhere....

 

So I guess I'm just wondering how to help prepare dc for life with children....

 

Joan (GenevaJ)

[regentrude]

Maybe it is even harder for males to get the real life experience that would give them some idea of what it is like to be a father????

 

 

Honestly, I do not believe it is possible unless the man is actually a father.

The issue is not diapering and feeding and waking up at night. The issue is that you have to let go of the idea that, if you can only organize your life well, things will not change. that, to me, was the biggest thing - because nobody tells you that. The notion is that you only have to be organized and prepared to be able to add a child and not go through dramatic changes. It is impossible to "get" this unless you live it... just like it is impossible for a parent of an only child to anticipate what changes a sibling is going to bring.

 

For my DH, the main issue was that he could no longer accomplish any work at home in the evenings and weekends, and that he needed to let go of the idea and the guilt. He needed to change his whole expectation about himself. He was depressed over it, and it took him about a year to adapt to the realization that, no matter how efficient you are and how well you plan, parenthood changes everything.

I do not believe any prior experience, even with childcare, can remedy that, because with any other child but your own you can leave in the evening and you are not one hundred percent responsible for the well being of this child. There is always a parent in the background.

 

If I would want to do anything to prepare my kids for being parents (which I do not, as both show no inclination at this point, and it is at least 10+ years in the future), it would be to tell them that they should not make plans, but be flexible and take things as they come.

 

ETA: I did not marry my DH because I thought him to be a good father to my children. We were together for ten years before we had kids - it was something that did not even enter our minds. I married him because we enjoy being with each other, and we lived through many different experiences before we made the decision. At that point, I knew that, whatever challenges we'd face, we could deal with them together. Parenthood was certainly a challenge ;-)

[stripe]

I'm still thinking about your post today, Joan.

Do you think you really can be prepared for Parenthood?

 

I hesitate to say yes.

You can do 'jobs', you can learn 'skills', you can take 'responsibilities', but you will never feel that 24h/day, 7d/week feeling a parent has, until you are the parent. All the other things will be 'temperorily'.

 

I think having experience with kids-- lots of experience -- helps have a sense of what is actually involved. It is not the same, but it's not being clueless.

 

I also think traditionally, parents were not responsible for their children 24 hours a day, seven days a week. People don't live in nuclear families; people live in extended families in many parts of this world to this day. Furthermore, living by oneself with kids and spouse is not really considered normal or ideal in many cultures. I think it helps new parents to be able to hand the screaming kid to the grandma or aunt, and take a break. I think it also prevents exhaustion and the sort of rage that can develop when children aren't sleeping or pee on the floor.

[Joan in GE]

Honestly, I do not believe it is possible unless the man is actually a father.

The issue is not diapering and feeding and waking up at night. The issue is that you have to let go of the idea that, if you can only organize your life well, things will not change. that, to me, was the biggest thing - because nobody tells you that. The notion is that you only have to be organized and prepared to be able to add a child and not go through dramatic changes. It is impossible to "get" this unless you live it... just like it is impossible for a parent of an only child to anticipate what changes a sibling is going to bring.

 

For my DH, the main issue was that he could no longer accomplish any work at home in the evenings and weekends, and that he needed to let go of the idea and the guilt. He needed to change his whole expectation about himself. He was depressed over it, and it took him about a year to adapt to the realization that, no matter how efficient you are and how well you plan, parenthood changes everything.

I do not believe any prior experience, even with childcare, can remedy that, because with any other child but your own you can leave in the evening and you are not one hundred percent responsible for the well being of this child. There is always a parent in the background.

 

If I would want to do anything to prepare my kids for being parents (which I do not, as both show no inclination at this point, and it is at least 10+ years in the future), it would be to tell them that they should not make plans, but be flexible and take things as they come.

 

ETA: I did not marry my DH because I thought him to be a good father to my children. We were together for ten years before we had kids - it was something that did not even enter our minds. I married him because we enjoy being with each other, and we lived through many different experiences before we made the decision. At that point, I knew that, whatever challenges we'd face, we could deal with them together. Parenthood was certainly a challenge ;-)

 

 

regentrude - I think those are really helpful observations.....being conscious of those coming changes and preparing 'mentally' for them would be a good thing. In a way this is even related to the efficiency thread....

 

I think having experience with kids-- lots of experience -- helps have a sense of what is actually involved. It is not the same, but it's not being clueless.

 

I also think traditionally, parents were not responsible for their children 24 hours a day, seven days a week. People don't live in nuclear families; people live in extended families in many parts of this world to this day. Furthermore, living by oneself with kids and spouse is not really considered normal or ideal in many cultures. I think it helps new parents to be able to hand the screaming kid to the grandma or aunt, and take a break. I think it also prevents exhaustion and the sort of rage that can develop when children aren't sleeping or pee on the floor.

 

This is a good point. We've always lived overseas and so never had the benefit of extended family except for some isolated visits....It probably makes a huge difference in adaptation as well....No relative to give advice...But in the US, many times people live quite far from extended family and don't see them much more than we did....

 

Joan

[regentrude]

regentrude - I think those are really helpful observations.....being conscious of those coming changes and preparing 'mentally' for them would be a good thing. In a way this is even related to the efficiency thread....

 

 

But my point is precisely that it is impossible to prepare mentally unless you are actually in the situation.

If you are used to accomplishing whatever tasks you have set for yourself, and then somebody is telling you that you will no longer be able to do that, but will have to drastically reduce your expectations, you can hear it - but you will still believe that you are the exception and can.make.it.work. if you only try hard enough.

 

I have seen the same thing with a coworker couple who are fighting tooth and nail to not give in an inch and to keep their productivity... at the expense of sleep and sanity.

Anybody telling a young person beforehand that the plans she/he is making are futile because they won't be able to follow through will not prepare the person for parenthood, because they will simply not believe it. I can think of nothing that would have convinced me.

[elegantlion]

 

 

I don't know whether it is a city vs country thing, but watching one ds, here young people tend to go out in groups more than what I remember in the US....but still it tends to be city focused, occasionally they'll go skiing together and sometimes hiking.....I can't remember them volunteering together as a group.....

 

Ohhhh yes - that the focus is not on each other so much...but on reaching out in the world, doing things for others....

 

And the situations seem to generally be artificial.....don't want to say too much personal info about ds since the boards are more open these days....But I wonder - how would these young people adapt to the realities of life when children come along?

 

Joan

 

 

.

 

 

Dh and I were adults when we met, at least in age. I was 23, he was almost 30. We didn't even think about children honestly. It wasn't on our radar because we thought we wouldn't be good parents, so we planned on not having children. As it turns out being parents is the one thing we don't have an issue about. Dh realized how he wanted to parent because his own father died when he was 9, so he wanted to be a part of everything in ds's life. It's the one area of our life where we are in constant agreement, parenting that is. Which is odd because we are so different and view the world differently. Still, I'm not sure what could have prepared us for parenting. We weren't around little kids, no extended family nearby, our friends weren't having children early either.

 

As for the dating, I hope ds finds someone through a friendship first, doing things together before the dinner and movie dates. I think there is value in the dating because after marriage and kids there is so much pressure, getting time for yourself and time for your relationship can be hard. Dating can place value of time together doing mundane things, creating conversation when you're doing nothing, watching how they handle little things like customer service and waiting and sitting. It's like a time of observation that not everyone shows while they are working. If that makes any sense.

[Rosie_0801]

But it seems like there are so many divorces 'after' people have had children that somehow the reality of childrearing was 'too' far from people's mind....If the prechild relationship was just about focus on each other, then when the focus is turned to the children (though I don't think the children should be king of the house - that's not what I'm trying to say), mates can feel like they are suffering from lack of attention and look elsewhere....

 

So I guess I'm just wondering how to help prepare dc for life with children....

 

Joan (GenevaJ)

 

Refer them to the thread from several months ago about how the average woman doesn't feel she's back to normal until her youngest is four? My ex and his first girlfriend wanted couples counselling through their church and pre-marital counselling was all that was available. Being a father was not touched on at all. It was all about being a good, Biblical husband, as though being a father had nothing to do with that. It would have been helpful had they mentioned the mother of his children may well be a sleep deprived mess for years on end. http://forums.welltr...n/#entry3952317 He may not have believed it, but maybe he would have.

[stripe]

Good to see things in perspective, although it is my reality.

I don't say it is ideal, but I don't see how I could be prepared the life I live.

I can imagine different situations where the woman would say the same

 

I can say, I would like to have backup sometimes, to take a nap, eat my meal, or leave the house. Of course, everything has it's advantages and disadvantages. However, I do think having others around makes it easier to avoid total disaster, in some ways. I have seen posts on here that suggest that people living that way are not really grown up.

[southcarolinamom]

My ds's relationship with his "soon-to-be fiancee" started off more as a "working" relationship than dating. He went over to her parents' house and helped them plant container gardens, canned, helped in the kitchen before a big party, changed her mom's flat tire, etc. :laugh: I guess it demonstrated to her parents my ds's work ethic, and his ability to do the unexpected and still be happy "just being with her." Does that make sense?

[Joan in GE]

But my point is precisely that it is impossible to prepare mentally unless you are actually in the situation. <snip> Anybody telling a young person beforehand that the plans she/he is making are futile because they won't be able to follow through will not prepare the person for parenthood, because they will simply not believe it. I can think of nothing that would have convinced me.

This reminds me of an Oscar Wilde quote "I'm not young enough to know everything." :-)....and creeklands sig "Learn from others' mistakes. Life is WAY too short to make them all yourself".....

 

But aren't we as parents preparing them scholastically? So why not try to prepare them emotionally/socially too? After all, a person can be very successful careerwise and be a disaster in the home....At the end of one's life - one lives more with the home disaster than the career that might not have been so successful....By that I mean that if your children end up getting divorced there are all these social repercussions....

 

I do agree at one level with loesje who doesn't see how she could have been prepared for the life she leads now....but at some level I don't because of character traits/skills that can help one adjust to many different situations can be developed....

 

Perhaps the first one is 'Contentment' - hmmm - reminds me of the 'frugal' thread.....

 

It's the one area of our life where we are in constant agreement, parenting that is.

 

I think there is value in the dating because after marriage and kids there is so much pressure, getting time for yourself and time for your relationship can be hard. Dating can place value of time together doing mundane things, creating conversation when you're doing nothing, watching how they handle little things like customer service and waiting and sitting. It's like a time of observation that not everyone shows while they are working. If that makes any sense.

That's great that you are in agreement about parenting. :-)

 

Interesting point about the value of doing mundane things together and seeing how one responds to service situations....

 

Refer them to the thread from several months ago about how the average woman doesn't feel she's back to normal until her youngest is four? http://forums.welltr...n/#entry3952317 He may not have believed it, but maybe he would have.

 

Thanks for the link Rosie. I agree about the need for guidance for fathers.....

 

Maybe it is more preparing for not 'escaping when things get hard' , an illnes, no job, can give as much pressure as getting children. And one get prepared for some problems in life but not all ;-) Good to see things in perspective, although it is my reality. I don't say it is ideal, but I don't see how I could be prepared the life I live. I can imagine different situations where the woman would say the same

 

The bolded part I find to be a very good idea! This seems like something to start encouraging even when small.....comment about the other part above..

 

Of course, everything has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Yes it would all depend on the in-laws....or house help...

 

My ds's relationship with his "soon-to-be fiancee" started off more as a "working" relationship than dating. He went over to her parents' house and helped them plant container gardens, canned, helped in the kitchen before a big party, changed her mom's flat tire, etc. :laugh: I guess it demonstrated to her parents my ds's work ethic, and his ability to do the unexpected and still be happy "just being with her." Does that make sense?

 

Thank you - that's a nice example....:-)

 

 

Joan

[regentrude]

But aren't we as parents preparing them scholastically? So why not try to prepare them emotionally/socially too? After all, a person can be very successful careerwise and be a disaster in the home....At the end of one's life - one lives more with the home disaster than the career that might not have been so successful....By that I mean that if your children end up getting divorced there are all these social repercussions....

 

Of course we can and must prepare them emotionally and socially to be able to work with others, engage in healthy relationships, compromise, adapt to new situations, have perseverance and work ethic. But I still believe there is a limit as to what situations we can directly prepare them for.

We can certainly achieve some basic character building, and we can model a healthy relationship between parents. The latter, IMO, is the one factor that has the biggest impact on their future relationships; statistics support that (children of divorced parents have a higher probability of being divorced themselves; daughters of abusive parents have a higher risk of choosing an abusive husband...).

So, I think my role is to serve as an example. I have to model the relationship with my husband, I have to model good parenting. Nothing I tell them will prepare -and in this sense, telling them about the realities of having infants and toddlers will do absolutely nothing (other than make them feel bad fro what they put me through, which is not what I want)

 

But what I find important to remember is that: my life with my family is fundamentally different from the life of my parents when they had children. They had a live-in grandma, lived in the city they were born, lived under a communist regime with completely different challenges for managing daily life. I, OTOH, have it much easier in one respect because I live in a capitalist society where managing daily life is far less complicated - but OTOH, I have it more difficult because I moved overseas away from extended family and am raising my children bilingually in a country where the language spoken is not my native one. So, my life experiences are like nothing my parents could have possibly anticipated when they were raising me; anything they did to make me successful had to be generic, the basic traits I listed in my first sentence, but they could not do anything to prepare me for the specific challenges I would be facing.

They could not prepare my sister for her specific challenges either- being a single mother at 18 of a baby with cerebral palsy is nothing anybody prepares you for. Again, the underlying basic character traits they helped us develop made my sister successful- but not any specific preparation for her specific situation.

So, even the circumstances of parenting are so vastly different - and I still do not think there is a specific preparation for it.

[Lizzie in Ma]

Well, I guess yes, our dd and her bf do indeed "reality date". We are together as families a great deal for a meal and movies and he has 3 siblings, two very much younger who always demand their attention. They each have a tween sister as well with all the joys that entails.

They serve together in occasional ministries such as Operation Christmas Child, they attend youth group at his church and ours as well as classes together.

As my dd is often not feeling well, he has been wonderful with her, comforting her, encouraging her and just hanging out playing games on her bad days.

They have yet, in 6 months to go on an actual "date", alone together. Though I believe he asked his parents if he could do so for his birthday next week.

So I guess, as a couple so far, they are pretty used to "reality".

[Durriyyah]

I think it's very important to know how a couple works together, and how they handle conflict. This is a big reason people encourage living together before getting married, though I think it can be achieved in other ways. My dh and I worked together before we were married, and we think this has helped us in having very good communication. Simply, we would go into a meeting needing to find a solution, and if we didn't agree we needed to find a resolution that would work for the team at large. Of course not everyone can do that, but I do think little things like the groom being involved in the wedding planning can help a couple work on their communication.

[Joan in GE]

But I still believe there is a limit as to what situations we can directly prepare them for.

 

But what I find important to remember is that: my life with my family is fundamentally different from the life of my parents when they had children.

 

Yes - my current life is enormously different than my childhood too - though certainly not as drastic as yours...

 

So I guess we agree that we're looking more for character development that will serve in various situations...

 

ETA - no - I just realized I'd gone astray there - I do still think that experiences which can give some idea of the reality of life as a parent are very useful and character development will help them appreciate those experiences as well as serve them in difficult situations....

 

So, I think my role is to serve as an example. I have to model the relationship with my husband, I have to model good parenting.

 

Definitely important....I see my behaviour mirrored in my children already....for better and for worse...

 

Well, I guess yes, our dd and her bf do indeed "reality date". We are together as families a great deal for a meal and movies and he has 3 siblings, two very much younger who always demand their attention. They each have a tween sister as well with all the joys that entails.

They serve together in occasional ministries such as Operation Christmas Child, they attend youth group at his church and ours as well as classes together.

As my dd is often not feeling well, he has been wonderful with her, comforting her, encouraging her and just hanging out playing games on her bad days.

They have yet, in 6 months to go on an actual "date", alone together. Though I believe he asked his parents if he could do so for his birthday next week.

So I guess, as a couple so far, they are pretty used to "reality".

 

Interesting - sounds like 'family dating' :-)

 

I think it's very important to know how a couple works together, and how they handle conflict.

 

I do agree this is very important!

 

This is a big reason people encourage living together before getting married, though I think it can be achieved in other ways.

 

I definitely think it can be achieved in other ways and just because people have lived together doesn't really mean that they know how to have good conflict resolution - though they could...

 

 

My dh and I worked together before we were married, and we think this has helped us in having very good communication. Simply, we would go into a meeting needing to find a solution, and if we didn't agree we needed to find a resolution that would work for the team at large. Of course not everyone can do that, but I do think little things like the groom being involved in the wedding planning can help a couple work on their communication.

 

It sounds like the place where you were working also had a good attitude towards finding solutions....Was it a business?

 

Joan

[Rosie_0801]

I think it's very important to know how a couple works together, and how they handle conflict. This is a big reason people encourage living together before getting married, though I think it can be achieved in other ways.

 

 

What difference do you see between defacto and married? Or are you talking about living together as in housemates? :confused:

[Joan in GE]

Hi Rosie - I think there's a big difference between being married and living together...but maybe my ideas are different than Durriyyah's

 

I've been sharing this thread with dd for Life Skills and it is interesting for her to read the different approaches people have...thanks to all who are sharing...

 

Joan

[regentrude]

Hi Rosie - I think there's a big difference between being married and living together

 

I don't.

I know people who have been living together unmarried, in sickness and in health, for many decades - a more stable relationship than many marriages. They displayed the same level of commitment as the best of marriages. OTOH, I have seen people married multiple times for short periods.

So, I don't think there has to be any difference in the relationship for the couple ( of course there is still a difference in how the relationship is perceived and treated by society).

 

Btw, in my circle of friends, it is quite typical to live together for extended periods (5 -15 years) and then eventually marry. In fact, I can not think of any married couple among my friends who did not first live together. (I can think of some who are still unmarried after decades)

[TranquilMind]

I find the whole "dating" construction highly artificial. In my home country, you don't "date". You happen to meet somebody doing something, and gradually spend more time together doing all kinds of things. Asking a person to have dinner or to see a movie is not fraught with meaning, because it is simply an innocent activity and does not imply any deeper romantic interest - yes, you might ask the person whom you are in love with, but you also might ask a casual friend. Takes a lot of pressure off by not making it a big deal with lots of expectations attached.

 

My friends who are married or in relationships met while doing something: taking classes in college, working, being engaged in an activity. They began cultivating their relationship at school, work, at the activity and eventually did things outside this context. I met DH first year in college; we spent a lot of time together studying and rock climbing - that's where we got to know each other very, very well. So, in a sense, both work and play.

We occasionally went to the theatre or to dinner, too, but I agree that this is really not how you get to know a person.

I dislike the whole dating culture, because IMO it puts an undue pressure on both participants and gets in the way of simply getting to know a person.

 

Totally agree. I met my husband while in grad school, and there was no time for dating, really. We just spent time together while doing our daily stuff.

[TranquilMind]

I

Btw, in my circle of friends, it is quite typical to live together for extended periods (5 -15 years) and then eventually marry. In fact, I can not think of any married couple among my friends who did not first live together. (I can think of some who are still unmarried after decades)

 

Yikes! That's a really long time. Here, in my circle, that meant that this person wasn't really interested in marriage with this partner at all.

[regentrude]

Yikes! That's a really long time. Here, in my circle, that meant that this person wasn't really interested in marriage with this partner at all.

 

For us/them, it means that they were committed to the relationship without needing a piece of paper and the external sanctioning.

 

(ETA: What gets them to marry eventually are legal advantages: taxes, custody of children, visa issues...Friends from college married after fifteen years, just before their child was born.)

 

So, the interesting question would be: WHY marry at all?

[TranquilMind]

For us/them, it means that they were committed to the relationship without needing a piece of paper and the external sanctioning.

 

(ETA: What gets them to marry eventually are legal advantages: taxes, custody of children, visa issues...)

 

I understand the legal advantages, but I can't see waiting 5 to 15 years for them. The religious vow component matters to me, and is what elevates the relationship from a merely contractual arrangement.

[regentrude]

The religious vow component matters to me, and is what elevates the relationship from a merely contractual arrangement.

 

Point taken. That makes perfect sense.

Most of my friends either do not have religious convictions, or the partners have different religions and are unable to have a religious wedding

 

I understand the legal advantages, but I can't see waiting 5 to 15 years for them.

 

Sometimes there are no legal advantages for many years: two working partners with roughly identical salary ranges have no tax benefits from filing jointly; if they are childless, custody is not an issue. Substantial legal benefits do not happen until they have children and one stays home.

[TranquilMind]

Point taken. That makes perfect sense.

Most of my friends either do not have religious convictions, or the partners have different religions and are unable to have a religious wedding

 

You know, I was thinking that the partners who didn't want to marry yet could still create a contract and get many, if not all, of the legal advantages? I don't know though...that might seem weird if you are in the relationship to contractually create this relationship without marrying?

[regentrude]

You know, I was thinking that the partners who didn't want to marry yet could still create a contract and get many, if not all, of the legal advantages? I don't know though...that might seem weird if you are in the relationship to contractually create this relationship without marrying?

 

 

That would be weird. You can either get married (which does not require religion) or not. Creating a legally binding contract is, IMO, a marriage (unless we are talking about couples who would like to marry, but are prevented from marrying by law and have to settle for a civil union)

Such an arrangement would make no sense to me.

[Joan in GE]

Margaret - thanks for the picture of how it worked for you....I bet by the end of those two summers you (as well as your dd even more importantly) knew him pretty well.....

 

About the marriage vs living together issue and how I see them as different - (of course there are exceptions to everything - trying to make generalities here)

 

for the couple - (while of course there are some who abandon their vows easily), I would say that there is a certain percentage who have stayed through difficult times, exactly because of the vows....and proceeded to work things out...

 

for the children - I think children feel more secure with the idea that their parents are married...of course if they are fighting all the time there will be a certain insecurity but not as great as not married (IMO)

 

for the relatives - generally I think it makes a huge difference if their son or daughter is married to the person or not....they perceive the relationship as one that should last and therefore would tend to invest more of their emotional and probably physical resources....

 

for society - it depends upon the society...

 

for the individuals themselves - I would trust that a person really cared about me at the subconscious level if he was married to me more than if not....

 

for God, from the Bible - well, it says that physical relationships outside marriage are wrong...and even the mental idea of a physical relationship outside marriage is wrong...so it seems that He puts a huge weight upon the idea....(just added this because we're openly discussing this - I know some would disagree)

 

Joan

[regentrude]

for the children - I think children feel more secure with the idea that their parents are married...of course if they are fighting all the time there will be a certain insecurity but not as great as not married (IMO)

for the relatives - generally I think it makes a huge difference if their son or daughter is married to the person or not....they perceive the relationship as one that should last and therefore would tend to invest more of their emotional and probably physical resources....

 

Why would marriage make such a difference if 50% of first marriages, 67% of second marriages, and 74% of third marriages end in divorce?

Child and relatives would know that the marriage has a 50% or higher chance of failing. Not exactly inspiring a lot of confidence.

Are there any data that show that long term unmarried relationships have a worse track record? (I am honestly asking, I do not know).

[TranquilMind]

Why would marriage make such a difference if 50% of first marriages, 67% of second marriages, and 74% of third marriages end in divorce?

Child and relatives would know that the marriage has a 50% or higher chance of failing. Not exactly inspiring a lot of confidence.

Are there any data that show that long term unmarried relationships have a worse track record? (I am honestly asking, I do not know).

 

So, don't be in that 50%! It doesn't have to happen. People make choices. Make a very wise decision going in, and your chances are much higher than 50%.

 

Almost 100% of all people who win lotteries blow the money because they can't handle money. We handle money very well. You can bet that if I won the lottery, that money is lasting for life.

[Alice]

When dh and I started dating and then became engaged we were living about 2 hours apart. I was in residency at the time and he was working. When we visited we would have very fun weekend that were very different from out normal lives. A full weekend off was precious during residency so we would pack it with all sorts of fun things. (We had been good friends for several years before I moved away, moving away made it obvious to us that we felt more for each other than friendship.)

 

About 6 months or so into the engagement dh told me that he wanted us to do more ordinary things during our time together. He felt that we were setting ourselves up for feeling like time together was always exciting and special and that marriage would feel like a let down of sorts. So we started doing more things like errands, doing more things with family as well as just each other, volunteering at church, etc. At the time I admit I felt a little cheated (those precious weekends off) but looking back I think it was really valuable for us to realize that we could have fun going to the grocery store or that it was nice just being in the same room even if we were each studying/working on something separate. Even now we love going out on special dates but we will also joke that it’s a “date night†if we get to go to the store alone or if the kids go to bed earlier than usual.

[Alice]

Double post, sigh.

[Tress]

You know, I was thinking that the partners who didn't want to marry yet could still create a contract and get many, if not all, of the legal advantages? I don't know though...that might seem weird if you are in the relationship to contractually create this relationship without marrying?

 

This type of contract is very common in the Netherlands, especially among higher educated people.

[Joan in GE]

Why would marriage make such a difference if 50% of first marriages, 67% of second marriages, and 74% of third marriages end in divorce?

Child and relatives would know that the marriage has a 50% or higher chance of failing. Not exactly inspiring a lot of confidence.

 

You should probably just talk about the relatives in relation to this point because at what age would the child start thinking about the probability of his/her parents staying together? S/he would have probably a good dozen years before contemplating that and after that only contemplating it if things were going downhill, where the family would become one of those statistics....

 

About the relatives - don't you think that they would 'hope' as the bride or groom would, that they were not going to be part of the negative statistics? And so they would put effort into it to try to help it be better?

 

Are there any data that show that long term unmarried relationships have a worse track record? (I am honestly asking, I do not know).

 

ETA - forgot to respond to this specifically because I started thinking about France (where I understand there are lots of people doing this....) and then went off on another tangent...So you could probably find statistics in some countries....

 

Well, there is also the point of 'time'...right now we're looking at statistics for our generation and the generations around us....And a certain culture that believes in monogamy......But over the course of history - what has the marriage relationship meant?

 

And in those earlier generations - what did dating mean? Did they even date? Is there an inverse relationship between 'non'dating and nondivorce? Ok that's getting into a dating/courtship issue which I hadn't really meant to include in this thread as I don't want it to turn into a culture disagreement......

 

So back to what do different families do about helping their young people be prepared?

 

Joan

[Joan in GE]

About 6 months or so into the engagement dh told me that he wanted us to do more ordinary things during our time together. He felt that we were setting ourselves up for feeling like time together was always exciting and special and that marriage would feel like a let down of sorts. So we started doing more things like errands, doing more things with family as well as just each other, volunteering at church, etc.

 

Your dh sounds like he was quite mature to realize that type of thing then....And it sounds like it has paid off....

 

Joan

[regentrude]

.But over the course of history - what has the marriage relationship meant?

 

 

Let's be honest: for a very long time, marriage meant an economic contract that gave a woman food and shelter in return for sex, children, and housework.

 

In the last century, the situation for women has changed dramatically. In Western societies, women now have the right to earn a living, to own property, to conduct their affairs, and most recently even to vote (did you know that Switzerland did not grant women this right until 1971???). Thus it is clear that the role of marriage nowadays must be fundamentally different from the role of marriage centuries ago.

[Joan in GE]

Let's be honest: for a very long time, marriage meant an economic contract that gave a woman food and shelter in return for sex, children, and housework.

 

In the last century, the situation for women has changed dramatically. In Western societies, women now have the right to earn a living, to own property, to conduct their affairs, and most recently even to vote (did you know that Switzerland did not grant women this right until 1971???). Thus it is clear that the role of marriage nowadays must be fundamentally different from the role of marriage centuries ago.

 

I enjoy discussing with you regentrude - and others of course as well - I think it does depend upon the culture and the era and the individual - you can read of some truly good relationships before the 1900's...:-)

 

As for another voting anecdote, did you know - it was not until 1983 that indigenous Australians had equivalent voting rights to other Australians, that is compulsory voting at all Commonwealth elections.^[1]?

 

Joan

[regentrude]

I think it does depend upon the culture and the era and the individual - you can read of some truly good relationships before the 1900's...:-)

Oh, absolutely - there must have been marriages between people who came to love each other and develop a real partnerships. OTOH, with women not having a viable alternative, there also were situations where women were no better than slaves.

 

As for another voting anecdote, did you know - it was not until 1983 that indigenous Australians had equivalent voting rights to other Australians, that is compulsory voting at all Commonwealth elections.^[1]?

 

I did not know about the Australians. The pros and cons of compulsory voting would be worth a discussion... but that would most definitely belong into an extra thread.

 

I do enjoy the discussions with you too, Joan, you raise very interesting questions, often some about which I never really thought.

[Durriyyah]

 

I definitely think it can be achieved in other ways and just because people have lived together doesn't really mean that they know how to have good conflict resolution - though they could...

 

 

It sounds like the place where you were working also had a good attitude towards finding solutions....Was it a business?

 

Joan

 

Yes, there are definitely people who sweep their issues under the rug instead of dealing with the conflict, but that's the reason it has been encouraged, at least in the circles I find myself in.

 

We worked at an Internet Service Provider. I was originally his boss, but he got promoted up to eventually be my peer. Some of the things we had to work on were scheduling technicians, processes for handling down servers, etc. Just the fact that we did not have the option of walking out of the meeting without a solution meant we got a lot of practice in finding solutions without ticking each other off and walking away. :)

 

What difference do you see between defacto and married? Or are you talking about living together as in housemates? :confused:

 

For me, it is the religious aspect of it, and the legal benefit is just that, a benefit. You have promised before God to fulfill your responsibilities and in return your spouse should give you your rights. Given that we expect/hope that our kids will wait for intimacy until marriage, living together would be quite the temptation. :laugh: In Islam we go as far as avoiding being alone with someone of the opposite gender, whenever possible, of course. Obviously my dh and I had to be alone in meetings when we worked on things, especially reviews for the techs since that's a pretty private matter. You find ways to be in public though and not at home, alone, with candles. :laugh:

 

I should say, I'm aware that not everyone fulfills their responsibilities, or gets their rights. Still, it is the goal. :thumbup:

 

The religious vow component matters to me, and is what elevates the relationship from a merely contractual arrangement.

 

This is exactly it. I agree 100%

This reminds me of an Oscar Wilde quote "I'm not young enough to know everything."

 

Actually, the quote is from J.M. Barrie...

 

 

And while I think it is very difficult to be completely prepared for parenting, it is a false dichotomy to say you are either completely prepared or not at all. While my first child turned my world upside-down in ways I never expected (like everyone, I suspect), there were a lot of things I had done that made me more prepared, than if I hadn't done them. Baby-sitting as kid, being an older sibling, being a leader in various social groups, helping out older friends and watching what they went through with their first children, etc. etc.

[Rosie_0801]

Double Post

[Rosie_0801]

About the relatives - don't you think that they would 'hope' as the bride or groom would, that they were not going to be part of the negative statistics? And so they would put effort into it to try to help it be better?

 

 

No. In the secular world no one outside the marriage/partnership would do much. People are either apathetic, believe in minding their own business, or think your partner is a lost cause and you'd be better off without them. Society expects much, much less of husbands and there is still a certain amount of respect for the man as head of his house. I had a few people tell me I ought to be a better wife, but no one ever said anything similar to my ex.

 

Interesting how different life can be in different places. I don't think any of the arguments in favour of marriage over defacto were valid in my local world.

[Rosie_0801]

Durriyyah, I was reading up on Muslim marriage rights and responsibilities last night. :)

[Joan in GE]

Actually, the quote is from J.M. Barrie...

 

Thanks for the correction. Interesting because we were recently in Dublin and there were magnets with Wilde's quotes (of which that one was one) at Trinity College - where you would think the scholarship would be good enough to know better with their impressive library that dates from the 18th century...It's curious how on Google search it comes up with Oscar Wilde as well unless you specifically type in Barrie...

 

 

helping out older friends and watching what they went through with their first children,

 

Yes, probably when you are closer to the age of the person having the children, it is easier to identify...And then if you are very good friends, they would discuss the challenges which would help you imagine yourself in the situation...good point...

 

there also were situations where women were no better than slaves.

We've just started Incidents in the LIfe of a Slave Girl (recommended in TWTM) which helps me understand your point even more....Highly recommend that book - though IMO best to prepare the reader with discussion and possible selection of passages depending on age of student...It could be a real shock!

 

I do enjoy the discussions with you too, Joan, you raise very interesting questions, often some about which I never really thought.

 

It's funny - you are living on the continent where I grew up (except I grew up in the East) and I'm living on your continent (except you grew up in The East). :-)

 

 

Just the fact that we did not have the option of walking out of the meeting without a solution meant we got a lot of practice in finding solutions without ticking each other off and walking away. :)

 

You find ways to be in public though and not at home, alone, with candles. :laugh:

 

I should say, I'm aware that not everyone fulfills their responsibilities, or gets their rights. Still, it is the goal. :thumbup:

 

Thanks for the example and ideas...

 

No. In the secular world no one outside the marriage/partnership would do much.

 

Interesting how different life can be in different places. I don't think any of the arguments in favour of marriage over defacto were valid in my local world.

 

Do you mean this even about relatives? Or do people tend to live far away from their relatives and thus have to depend on their friends and acquaintances in Australia?

 

One very important cultural difference which I think is regional - is whether one 'asks' for help or 'waits for an offer' of help....

 

For my in-laws - they do not want help unless they ask....For me, I would tend to wait for an 'offer' of help because that means the person is willing....

 

Joan

[Rosie_0801]

Yes, probably when you are closer to the age of the person having the children, it is easier to identify...And then if you are very good friends, they would discuss the challenges which would help you imagine yourself in the situation...good point...

 

Lol, I have a friend who is ten years older. She used to invite me to dinner and I'd have to cook it while she bathed the baby, or vice versa. :)

 

Do you mean this even about relatives? Or do people tend to live far away from their relatives and thus have to depend on their friends and acquaintances in Australia?

 

It may be different in religious or ethnic circles, but your average Anglo-Australian can depend on her childcare provider to open its doors each weekday. Anything else, including a helpful husband because even the good ones have long commutes, is a bonus.