Reality dating/courtship?

[Durriyyah]

Durriyyah, I was reading up on Muslim marriage rights and responsibilities last night. :)

 

I hope you found it interesting, and hopefully you found a good site! :) Goodness knows, there are some websites out there that propagate a negative image with bogus "facts". We actually talked about this over dinner last night, especially the fact that my husband has no rights to any income I make. I told DD1 that I honestly think the guys get the short end of the stick in the situation. :laugh:

[Rosie_0801]

I hope you found it interesting, and hopefully you found a good site! :) Goodness knows, there are some websites out there that propagate a negative image with bogus "facts". We actually talked about this over dinner last night, especially the fact that my husband has no rights to any income I make. I told DD1 that I honestly think the guys get the short end of the stick in the situation. :laugh:

 

:D

 

It's a topic I've explored before and I've never found any sites worse than "iffy," lol. It was fun reading the different interpretations of verses on who is and isn't suitable to marry. The comments on a Muslim feminist chick's blog were, uh, interesting, hehe.

[ELITEANDLOVINGIT]

I don't believe there is anyway to prepare for the reality of parenthood. There are biological changes that occur in both the man and the woman as they become parents together. Parenthood in and of itself is a life long journey; from the day we are born until the day we give birth we are groomed into the type of parents we are to become.

 

I also don't believe that most young people have children on their minds. I am not sure how one could make children work together unless they were part of a closed social group like Amish or Mennonite (these groups I believe do help kids / young adults prepare).

 

I guess in the end, I tend to fall into the majority that believe we give our children roots and then wings. Once children are at the age of dating, I won't say the conversation is over, but I do think that its pace has evolved such that there are firm rules, clear guidelines and above all else support and honesty on both ends.

[Joan in GE]

It may be different in religious or ethnic circles, but your average Anglo-Australian can depend on her childcare provider to open its doors each weekday. Anything else, including a helpful husband because even the good ones have long commutes, is a bonus.

 

Is this because Australians move around a lot like Americans or what?

 

wow - it sounds kind of disconnected compared to the Swiss families I know here...but when it comes to expats - they're mostly in this boat because dh is frequently traveling, etc....

 

Joan

[Storm Bay]

When one ds was recently discussing the activity he was going to be doing with a female friend, the idea that popped into my mind was that they should 'work' together rather than 'play' together....

 

Over the last couple of years I've been noticing the work that young couples do with young children and thinking how unlike the typical 'dating' experience 'real life' is....And suddenly the whole notion of getting to know someone by going to dinner and movies or perhaps even 'healthier' activities seemed like such an inadequate way to get to know what someone is really like....

 

What do they do when the brick falls on their foot? or children are screaming in confusion around them? or they need to be doing 5 things at once and change a baby's diaper?

 

This isn't a question of dating vs courtship and all that....

 

So I've been wondering if any of yours have done this kind of thing? should we call it 'reality dating' or 'reality courtship'? or something along these lines...

 

Joan

 

 

While nothing truly prepares you for being a parent, it is important to work together as part of a courtship to see how you work together first as a couple (but you're never truly prepared for marriage either, are you? :)). I believe that the parents should be the centre of the family, not the dc (not that dc should be neglected, but to me this is part of the same problem as too much praise that came up in the punishment and rewards thread).

 

And while this isn't quite the answer to the original question, it also helps to have exposure to babies and children together or separately, because having a much younger brother and lots of experience with babies and toddlers helped more than if I'd been an only or youngest child with little time spent helping and caring for kids. However, I know of wonderful parents who initially never wanted to have children (I'm thinking of women I've known first off) so I don't know that that is always required.

[regentrude]

wow - it sounds kind of disconnected compared to the Swiss families I know here...but when it comes to expats - they're mostly in this boat because dh is frequently traveling, etc....

 

So how do the Swiss families help out?

We obviously have no help from family now, because they are overseas. But even when I was still home, living in the same city as my parents, they would maybe babysit twice a year or so. My mother still worked full time when my kids were born, and whatever time resources the family had went to my sister who was a single mother raising a disabled child while attending medical school - three reasons why she actually needed help. It would not have occurred to me to expect help: I had a husband and was able to stay home for 18 months with each (healthy) baby, so of course I should be able to manage on my own.

The majority of my friends have no help from parents, because their parents were still working while the kids were little. Only the ones who had their babies untypically late (late thirties/early fourties) had a grandmother who was already retired.

Are the Swiss women more likely to stay home and be available for child care for extended family? In the part of Germany where I am from, almost all women work, except for a few years when their kids are really little.

[Joan in GE]

I am not sure how one could make children work together unless they were part of a closed social group like Amish or Mennonite (these groups I believe do help kids / young adults prepare).

 

Well I hadn't meant 'forcing'/making...but encouraging. I quite agree with the Punishment or Rewards thread answers about the young person having to 'own' the process and outcome....In my mind, the parent who can bring lots of experience and observations to the table can help the young person see advantages in various ways of handling life's many responsibilities which would increase the possibility that they would make wise choices. Nothing is 'foolproof' though - I'm not thinking that....

 

Before beginning the thread I was thinking how frequently young people don't spend much time around families with young children and therefore don't really imagine themselves having them and therefore preparing for the situation at some level. It might also be lack of expectations of peer groups....if peers aren't thinking of having children, then others won't either unless they are the less common ones who like to work in the nursery, love to babysit, etc....

 

I believe that the parents should be the centre of the family, not the dc (not that dc should be neglected, but to me this is part of the same problem as too much praise that came up in the punishment and rewards thread).

 

....it also helps to have exposure to babies and children together or separately, because having a much younger brother and lots of experience with babies and toddlers helped more than if I'd been an only or youngest child with little time spent helping and caring for kids. However, I know of wonderful parents who initially never wanted to have children (I'm thinking of women I've known first off) so I don't know that that is always required.

 

agree.....and there will always be exceptions to any group.....exposure certainly can't hurt if not difficult to come by....

 

Except in Japan where I believe there are lots of young women who aren't marrying (don't have statistics, just WOM) typically people do end up becoming a parent at some point in their lives.....

 

Joan

[regentrude]

Before beginning the thread I was thinking how frequently young people don't spend much time around families with young children and therefore don't really imagine themselves having them and therefore preparing for the situation at some level. It might also be lack of expectations of peer groups....if peers aren't thinking of having children, then others won't either unless they are the less common ones who like to work in the nursery, love to babysit, etc....

 

I see a big disconnect in time, at least for young people who are pursuing a higher education. They may have younger siblings or babysit, but between the time they leave the house at 18 and the time they are at a point in their professional life when it is feasible to have children, there is a 10+ year time gap. During college and graduate school, they will typically not be around little kids. So I don't think anything they do "preparing" as teens will have a big impact. In my group of friends, I was the first one to have children - at age 29. For many of my friends, it was much later.

[Joan in GE]

So how do the Swiss families help out?

We obviously have no help from family now, because they are overseas. But even when I was still home, living in the same city as my parents, they would maybe babysit twice a year or so. My mother still worked full time when my kids were born, and whatever time resources the family had went to my sister who was a single mother raising a disabled child while attending medical school - three reasons why she actually needed help. It would not have occurred to me to expect help: I had a husband and was able to stay home for 18 months with each (healthy) baby, so of course I should be able to manage on my own.

The majority of my friends have no help from parents, because their parents were still working while the kids were little. Only the ones who had their babies untypically late (late thirties/early fourties) had a grandmother who was already retired.

Are the Swiss women more likely to stay home and be available for child care for extended family? In the part of Germany where I am from, almost all women work, except for a few years when their kids are really little.

 

I have to put in a caveat as I do not know 'all' of Switzerland which is why I also put - 'the Swiss families I know'.....

 

I think the Swiss statistics are changing but this type of situation would be important for parents of young people today, thus those who were SAHMs (if my memory is correct, when we arrived 20+ years ago, I think it was 60% were SAHM's) - and not sure how it works in Germany and ex East G...but even now, lots of women don't work '100%'....lots will work 80 or 60 or 40%....Jobs are listed like that...With Wednesday being a day off or a half a day off for older kids in Geneva for example, lots of parents want to be with their children.....

 

But I do know women who are SAHM's even now....sometimes their children will go spend time with grandparents, overnight...

 

Anyway - what I see is not a fixed plan...Sometimes grandma will take the kids on the afternoon when they are off school or on vacation time or over the weekend or sporadically...One I know is taking the new grandson one day a week....Some people do two days a week....

 

People don't move around as much in Switzerland as in other places I think...which means that parents can be closer....

 

Anyway, I thought that at least in (ex West) Germany there were lots of SAHMs? and that is why kids could get off school at 1 or 2 pm....Mom was at home to help with schoolwork etc. I know this has drastically changed in the last 10 years but still - it used to be true....But I don't have a clue about German parents helping with grandchildren

 

I see a big disconnect in time, at least for young people who are pursuing a higher education. They may have younger siblings or babysit, but between the time they leave the house at 18 and the time they are at a point in their professional life when it is feasible to have children, there is a 10+ year time gap. During college and graduate school, they will typically not be around little kids. So I don't think anything they do "preparing" as teens will have a big impact. In my group of friends, I was the first one to have children - at age 29. For many of my friends, it was much later.

 

I do believe that it can depend on the circle of friends and acquaintances....

 

I do know young people who will come and do the au pair thing even while they are in university over the holidays, eg....Those are young women, not young men though...thus my concern for young men....

 

One ds did get to go to Germany and spend time with a family with young children - but that is pretty unusual....

 

Joan

[regentrude]

Anyway, I thought that at least in (ex West) Germany there were lots of SAHMs? and that is why kids could get off school at 1 or 2 pm....Mom was at home to help with schoolwork etc. I know this has drastically changed in the last 10 years but still - it used to be true....

 

In WEST Germany, certainly, there are lots more women who stay home for extended periods. In East Germany, not so much. Most women stay home for 1-3 years when their children are very young, but almost all return to work by the time the kids are three. I have only one SAHM friend; she is a mother of five and still has the youngest at home - he will attend part time daycare as soon as he hits three.

 

Even in former communist East Germany where almost all mothers worked, elementary school was out before lunch. Kids who had no parent or grandparent home and who were not allowed to be home alone went to after care until their mothers got off work. Aftercare is still offered at pretty much all elementary schools in our state (often not directly in the school, but in a nearby aftercare center that might be associated with a daycare), until grade 4. As of 5th grade, it is fully expected that the student, who navigates public transit for his way to and from school independently, can stay home alone for a few hours.

[Joan in GE]

I heard Germany was getting pressure from the EU to not offer some financial encouragement to SAHM/F's of young children last spring.....Though I think historically Germany has put emphasis on the healthy development of children with less school hours than France for example, with the mandatory school age being 6-7 instead of 3-4 (now it is 4 in some cantons in CH)...

[regentrude]

I heard Germany was getting pressure from the EU to not offer some financial encouragement to SAHM/F's of young children last spring.

I have not followed the EU development, but the whole issue of subsidies is a very controversial one.

There is a movement, mainly within the conservative party, to reward families where the parent chooses to stay at home (and thus will not need state subsidized daycare) with extra money. This is extremely controversial because that would encourage the problem families - low income, poor knowledge of German language, no enriching family environment, abusive situations - to keep those children home who would most benefit from a quality early childhood education and whom this education would enable to enter school at age 6 or 7 less behind than their peers who come from families with a better education background.

 

The crux of the problem is, as with any subsidized product, the scarcity of the resource that is subsidized (this was the general motif of East German planned economy, btw) . In Germany, most daycare/preschool is highly subsidized by the state; thus, it is cheap for the families, and not enough spots are available. It would be much more sensible to get away from blanket subsidies for childcare, develop an actual market for childcare, and subsidize childcare only for low income families. But making daycare cheap and then paying families not to use it encourages exactly those people who most need them money and who are least equipped to prepare their children for school success.

...Though I think historically Germany has put emphasis on the healthy development of children with less school hours than France for example, with the mandatory school age being 6-7 instead of 3-4 (now it is 4 in some cantons in CH)...

 

I do not know to what extent this is a conscious decision for healthy child development - it has been like this forever, and seems immensely sensible to me. I can not detect any measurable advantage of the American model of memorizing the abcs and numbers in preschool; by age ten, there is no significant difference in reading abilities between those kids and the ones who started school at age 6/7 and learned their letters then. (My DD was the only kid entering K not knowing her letters, because we had just moved to the US from Germany and she did not go through preschool , yet she was the first in her class to read. )

 

When I talk about early childhood education in the above paragraph, I am not referring to a preschool type academic program as they would have in the US. In Germany, they would not work on letter and number recognition with 3 and 4 year olds; there are no formal academics, until maybe at age 5, the last year before they start school, they might do one hour pre-school per day. Instead, they do a lot of crafts, nature study, have several hours of outside play daily, sing songs, read books, go on field trips.

[Rosie_0801]

Is this because Australians move around a lot like Americans or what?

 

Yes, it is partly that and partly that the baby boomer generation seems not to be big on grandparenting. The younger end of the generation are still working and the older end have no desire to. They have a life, you know.

[mom4him]

When one ds was recently discussing the activity he was going to be doing with a female friend, the idea that popped into my mind was that they should 'work' together rather than 'play' together....

 

Over the last couple of years I've been noticing the work that young couples do with young children and thinking how unlike the typical 'dating' experience 'real life' is....And suddenly the whole notion of getting to know someone by going to dinner and movies or perhaps even 'healthier' activities seemed like such an inadequate way to get to know what someone is really like....

 

What do they do when the brick falls on their foot? or children are screaming in confusion around them? or they need to be doing 5 things at once and change a baby's diaper?

 

This isn't a question of dating vs courtship and all that....

 

So I've been wondering if any of yours have done this kind of thing? should we call it 'reality dating' or 'reality courtship'? or something along these lines...

 

Joan

 

This is very much how my middle son and his wife started to get to know each other. They both ended up working with the tween kids at church. They descovered that they both really enjoy kids, out doors, kids, snow, kids, LOL It took my ds about 4 months before he came to me and asked, "Mom, what do you think of .....?" It was another couple months and they became engaged, another couple of months and they married. They now have 7 children, all either adopted or they have gardianship of them. I am totally proud of them both. They have received children into their home that to say were hurting and very difficult is putting it mild and have embraced them all into a fantastic family.

[Joan in GE]

They have a life, you know.

 

Oh you reminded me of my mom saying she was 'not going to be a babysitter'! (still trying to sort thru things about my mom who passed away so it is imp to think about this for me)...

 

It all depends on how you see it, doesn't it?....For me it will be a privilege but for her it was a burden - though she did change a bit after many years. Still I certainly was impressed that my kids were my responsibility.....I know she didn't want to be 'used'....

 

There is a movement, mainly within the conservative party, to reward families where the parent chooses to stay at home (and thus will not need state subsidized daycare) with extra money. This is extremely controversial because that would encourage the problem families - low income, poor knowledge of German language, no enriching family environment, abusive situations - to keep those children home who would most benefit from a quality early childhood education and whom this education would enable to enter school at age 6 or 7 less behind than their peers who come from families with a better education background.

......

I can not detect any measurable advantage of the American model of memorizing the abcs and numbers in preschool; by age ten, there is no significant difference in reading abilities between those kids and the ones who started school at age 6/7 and learned their letters then. (My DD was the only kid entering K not knowing her letters, because we had just moved to the US from Germany and she did not go through preschool , yet she was the first in her class to read. )

 

Thank you for helping me understand why the policy is so controversial - I really didn't understand and thought it is just to get women out in the workforce...BUT it is important for a parent to be at home with the children and I believe they should not be penalized for that choice AND that the government should realize that it is actually preferable to protect children's childhood. So I don't know how you get that into a policy...

 

regentrude - you listed a number of problematic home situations...

Two of these I think are definitely being misused for political purposes..

first - low income I think you should take out...it doesn't automatically mean bad - just as high income doesn't automatically mean good...There are lots of people in GE with high income whose children are a disaster....Money can have a very spoiling effect.

 

poor knowledge of German - this one I think you should take out too....they can learn German later - it's good to have a maternal tongue to wed the generations..

 

These two - I wonder if they have statistics and how they measure them....What percent are really abusive? I know there are some things that the German gov doesn't consider abusive that I do and vice versa....

 

- not enriching family environment - how on earth do you measure this - enough to make policies?

- abusive...

 

This is very much how my middle son and his wife started to get to know each other. They both ended up working with the tween kids at church. They descovered that they both really enjoy kids, out doors, kids, snow, kids, LOL It took my ds about 4 months before he came to me and asked, "Mom, what do you think of .....?" It was another couple months and they became engaged, another couple of months and they married. They now have 7 children, all either adopted or they have gardianship of them. I am totally proud of them both. They have received children into their home that to say were hurting and very difficult is putting it mild and have embraced them all into a fantastic family.

 

Sounds really great!!

 

Joan

[regentrude]

Thank you for helping me understand why the policy is so controversial - I really didn't understand and thought it is just to get women out in the workforce...BUT it is important for a parent to be at home with the children and I believe they should not be penalized for that choice AND that the government should realize that it is actually preferable to protect children's childhood.

 

There ARE already policies that support SAHMs - for example one year paid leave with guarantee to return to their same job; two extra months if fathers participate.

I do not think not being paid by the government for their choice to stay home would be a punishment.

 

regentrude - you listed a number of problematic home situations...

Two of these I think are definitely being misused for political purposes..

first - low income I think you should take out...it doesn't automatically mean bad - just as high income doesn't automatically mean good...There are lots of people in GE with high income whose children are a disaster....Money can have a very spoiling effect.

I did not mean that low income families neglect their children. I was typing in a hurry and should have been more specific: I was referring to what the German press calls the "Prekariat": the long term welfare families with low education level who have given up looking for work, participating in meaningful activities, investing energy into educating their children. It may not be politically correct to acknowledge the existence of such a group, but it is a problem. I am not talking about people who just have little money!

In some cases, the problem families have a pretty decent material standard of living - but it is a atmosphere of educational neglect. I do not have a good English word for it - you are right, low income is incorrect.

 

poor knowledge of German - this one I think you should take out too....they can learn German later - it's good to have a maternal tongue to wed the generations..

 

They could, but a child who enters school at age 6 or 7 without speaking German will be behind form day one.

Remember, we are not talking about babies, but preschoolers. The German system is set up to provide language learning help at ages 4 and 5, before the kids enter real school. In real school, there is no infrastructure to deal with kids who do not speak the language.

The two things are not an exclusion- you can be fluent in your native language AND attend a preschool for a few hours a day where you become fluent in the language of the country. Surprisingly little time is necessary for that. I did it with my kids when we moved to England; attending preschool for four hours a day was sufficient to get them age-level fluent in a matter of months

 

These two - I wonder if they have statistics and how they measure them....What percent are really abusive? I know there are some things that the German gov doesn't consider abusive that I do and vice versa....

- not enriching family environment - how on earth do you measure this - enough to make policies?

- abusive...

 

Nobody goes into a family's home and decides that they must send their kids to preschool.

But people have been looking at the problems schools have with first graders who come in without age appropriate language skills, with poor fine motor skills, with lacking vocabulary, with speech defects - all things that attendance to a quality preschool program could have prevented (or that parents who are invested in home educating their children those first years would have remedied on their own!) Kids who enter school with these disadvantages are not prepared to succeed and the goal is to prepare children for school.

So, you'd want those families to send their kids to preschool. Offering a monetary incentive NOT to, however, would encourage exactly those families to take the money and stay home whose kids would most benefit from preschool services.

[Joan in GE]

The Flander government thinks it is quite simple to measure:

 

- education level of the mother

- education level of the father

- proficiency in Dutch

- number of books a household has

- acces to internet at home

- acces to library

- acces to musea and performances

etc.

etc.

 

Schools and departments have checklists / standards for this.

 

This is SO interesting! Could you fill in the other etc's?

 

I do find it a bit biased towards certain types of family values.....And for example, a family might not have the space or finances for a lot of books but go to the library every week....

 

Most of our politics are based on this type assumptions.

The evaluation of our homeschool is partly based on this type of questions.

 

Also very interesting - the GE law only asks us to follow the GE program and have a 'hygienic' home!

 

There ARE already policies that support SAHMs - for example one year paid leave with guarantee to return to their same job; two extra months if fathers participate.

I do not think not being paid by the government for their choice to stay home would be a punishment.

 

I did not mean that low income families neglect their children. I was typing in a hurry and should have been more specific: I was referring to what the German press calls the "Prekariat": the long term welfare families with low education level who have given up looking for work, participating in meaningful activities, investing energy into educating their children. It may not be politically correct to acknowledge the existence of such a group, but it is a problem. I am not talking about people who just have little money!

In some cases, the problem families have a pretty decent material standard of living - but it is a atmosphere of educational neglect. I do not have a good English word for it - you are right, low income is incorrect.

 

They could, but a child who enters school at age 6 or 7 without speaking German will be behind form day one.

Remember, we are not talking about babies, but preschoolers. The German system is set up to provide language learning help at ages 4 and 5, before the kids enter real school. In real school, there is no infrastructure to deal with kids who do not speak the language.

The two things are not an exclusion- you can be fluent in your native language AND attend a preschool for a few hours a day where you become fluent in the language of the country. Surprisingly little time is necessary for that. I did it with my kids when we moved to England; attending preschool for four hours a day was sufficient to get them age-level fluent in a matter of months

 

 

 

Nobody goes into a family's home and decides that they must send their kids to preschool.

But people have been looking at the problems schools have with first graders who come in without age appropriate language skills, with poor fine motor skills, with lacking vocabulary, with speech defects - all things that attendance to a quality preschool program could have prevented (or that parents who are invested in home educating their children those first years would have remedied on their own!) Kids who enter school with these disadvantages are not prepared to succeed and the goal is to prepare children for school.

So, you'd want those families to send their kids to preschool. Offering a monetary incentive NOT to, however, would encourage exactly those families to take the money and stay home whose kids would most benefit from preschool services.

 

regentrude - thank you for your patient explanation of all this.....

 

Only one quibble now....to me - one year at home does not make a 'stay at home' parent.....though I agree that they are at home for one year...But that is a very small amount of time....

 

Joan