Penn State Sanctions - What do you think?

[pdalley]

a comment about how some of the family members certainly knew and should be punished... and several about how they should not say anything. If someone accused my husband and I didn't believe it-I would protest publically no question. I expect nothing less of others. I don't think that makes them bad people. I also see people that want every penny Joe Pa ever made taken from his family... like they had anything to do with it.

 

As for Fred and Frieda-I was talking about the punishment of those that had nothing to do with it... not whether you would visit for Sunday Dinner. I dont' think Frieda's co-workers should be punished for Fred's crimes or Frieda's cover-up. I also wouldn't have a problem being around any other family members that did not know about Fred's crime-even if their first response what I cannot believe that Uncle Fred would do that...

 

As I said before.... when a college violates NCAA rules then everyone suffers. Sometimes kids that came to the college years after the violations took place have to suffer due to the sanctions. This is nothing new and I fail to see why people are up in arms over this when it comes to Penn State. Seriously, other colleges get smacked for recruiting violations, shaving points, etc but this is child rape that went on for a decade and it was systematically covered up and enabled.

 

Innocents always suffer.

 

As far as the pension I think some feel perhaps it was fruit of a poisonous tree. Criminals and those who engage in a conspiracy generally are not legally entitled to profit from doing so. Yet Sandusky and Paterno and the other admins will keep their high dollar pensions.

 

I don't think the families are bad for trying to defend Paterno. I just think they are coming across as tone deaf to the public outcry at the moment and might want to rethink that. The evidence is that Paterno did know since 98 and he enabled this serial predator. I could care less that he was great at coaching a game. His character was lacking when it counted.

[weaver_67579]

As I said before.... when a college violates NCAA rules then everyone suffers. Sometimes kids that came to the college years after the violations took place have to suffer due to the sanctions. This is nothing new and I fail to see why people are up in arms over this when it comes to Penn State. Seriously, other colleges get smacked for recruiting violations, shaving points, etc but this is child rape that went on for a decade and it was systematically covered up and enabled.

 

Innocents always suffer.

 

As far as the pension I think some feel perhaps it was fruit of a poisonous tree. Criminals and those who engage in a conspiracy generally are not legally entitled to profit from doing so. Yet Sandusky and Paterno and the other admins will keep their high dollar pensions.

 

I don't think the families are bad for trying to defend Paterno. I just think they are coming across as tone deaf to the public outcry at the moment and might want to rethink that. The evidence is that Paterno did know since 98 and he enabled this serial predator. I could care less that he was great at coaching a game. His character was lacking when it counted.

 

but that doesn't make it right-ever. I think what bothers me so much is that many of the same people that are so horrified at the innocent boys suffering (and who isn't) are more than ok with other innocent people being punished for it-some it seems with glee-in the stick it to them good because the whole culture is bad kind of way. I can't wrap my head around that the almost hateful and vengeful way it comes off and the complete lack of care for those that will be affected through no fault of their own.

[pageta]

that it is abhorrent that I can think that he was skilled in teaching football skills to his players? How is that offensive in any way? and how does that in any way have to do with the cover-up. They are two different things. I can be good at playing piano and drink too much and drive. That doesn't mean I am now not a good piano player... It means I am both a drunk driver and a good piano player. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

If you're conducting the orchestra and you know that players are drawing checks but aren't showing up for performances, then even though you may be awesome when conducting, you still have a stain on your reputation.

 

Knowing that your coaches are doing things like this within your program and ignoring it is a lot closer than just going home and being a drunk when you're off duty.

[weaver_67579]

If you're conducting the orchestra and you know that players are drawing checks but aren't showing up for performances, then even though you may be awesome when conducting, you still have a stain on your reputation.

 

Knowing that your coaches are doing things like this within your program and ignoring it is a lot closer than just going home and being a drunk when you're off duty.

 

that still does not take away the fact that the person is a good conductor. I just means that person is a good conductor that doesn't have good management skills.

[pageta]

that still does not take away the fact that the person is a good conductor. I just means that person is a good conductor that doesn't have good management skills.

 

Hitler was a great leader. Look what he got Germany to do! You have to be a great leader to get that many people to go against their consciences and do what the Germans did during WWII.

 

Why are you so bent on defending this guy?

[justasque]

There's more to the culture of JoePa than just the football aspect. This episode of This American Life covers the "party school" culture that goes along with the football games, and the alumni money that results. As TAL tells it, the school (and the town) was reluctant to appropriately police the party atmosphere (underaged drinking, binge drinking, etc.) fearing loss of alumni/legacy money.

 

#1 Party School

 

I visited the campus a few years back, just after this episode aired, and I was amazed that not once in the official presentation did anyone mention, or ask about, the party culture. I brought along three high school juniors who did not know anything about the football program; the JoePa hero worship was palatable in both the official presentations and the student-led tours, and really creeped them out. (As in, who is this JoePa guy and why is everyone so obsessed with him?) Everyone at the school, throughout the day, assumed that if you were looking at Penn State, you knew who JoePa was, and he was part of why you were there.

 

and there was plenty of drinking and plenty of people that didn't drink. It's your choice what you did and who you hang out with. As you know, it's a huge campus so you can find whatever kind of folks to hang around with that you want.

 

I should have added that I realize that not everyone who goes to Penn State is part of the party culture, the football culture, or the worship of JoePa. As several have mentioned, it's a very big school, with many well-respected programs. Any of us who live in PA know tons of people who went there (or are going there), the vast majority of whom aren't part of the problem.

 

HOWEVER - We need to recognize that the school used the worship of JoePa and the football culture extensively in their marketing. They built their brand on his reputation. He was a huge part of the "official", administration-approved culture/brand of Penn State. To try to minimize that is counter-productive - we need to see it, and understand the role it played in creating incentive to cover up anything that didn't go along with the official image of JoePa's football program and by extension the University, so that we can at least try to prevent it from happening again.

[pdalley]

but that doesn't make it right-ever. I think what bothers me so much is that many of the same people that are so horrified at the innocent boys suffering (and who isn't) are more than ok with other innocent people being punished for it-some it seems with glee-in the stick it to them good because the whole culture is bad kind of way. I can't wrap my head around that the almost hateful and vengeful way it comes off and the complete lack of care for those that will be affected through no fault of their own.

 

It's reality.

 

I'm supposed to be upset that some innocents might be inconvenienced? Children were raped. A predator was enabled for years and years. That's what I'll concentrate my outrage on. I feel no glee over anyone suffering but my head wants to explode that people would equate being inconvenienced to what those children experienced.

 

Really...

[pdalley]

that still does not take away the fact that the person is a good conductor. I just means that person is a good conductor that doesn't have good management skills.

 

Covering up child rape and enabling a child predator for years equals poor management skills? :confused:

 

Character counts. The music would sound like garbage to me if I knew he enabled child rape. I don't care how good a conductor he was.

[Audrey]

I just realized (and a quick google search confirmed it) that due to Paterno being stripped of his wins, Bobby Bowden of FSU is now the coach with the most wins. Florida State is my alma mater.

 

 

While I like to see Bobby and FSU on top, I have to say that I don't think Bobby would want the title this way. It's kind of tainted, KWIM?

[Audrey]

Isn't that mind boggling? I tend to think, then, that perhaps they should fork over multiple years' worth. If money was their god, then they should really suffer. As for the students? It's football...do people really choose a college because of a sport( when they're not even a player)? How, really, will the students "suffer" by missing bowl games. Are there no other quality sports for them to support? ? As for Paterno, I think he deserves to roast in hell, too, if he honestly helped in any knowing way to shield Sandusky.

 

Football funds itself and almost all other college sports. We are in Nebraska, and everything loses money except occasionally men's basketball and baseball...occasionally. So all of those womens' sports and all that? Would be extremely limited without a good football program.

 

So yes, you can be aghast at the money in football. Most of it is from tv contracts. But it also supports other sports programs, giving lots of people an opportunity they simply wouldn't have otherwise.

 

 

 

Believe it or not, but yes, people can choose a school because of football. Maybe they don't know that at first, but footbal schools run more than football off of football money. I went to OU because they gave me the biggest scholarship and I didn't have money (nor want loans) to go to university. Much, much later (after getting my doc elsewhere) I came back to OU and actually sat on a board that determined scholarship funding. MOST of the $$ available was there because of football in some way or another. Alumni pledges at football schools come in 10-fold more in a winning season than a losing one.

 

I.e. successful football program = big $$$$ all over the school.

[Supertechmom]

I should have added that I realize that not everyone who goes to Penn State is part of the party culture, the football culture, or the worship of JoePa. As several have mentioned, it's a very big school, with many well-respected programs. Any of us who live in PA know tons of people who went there (or are going there), the vast majority of whom aren't part of the problem.

 

HOWEVER - We need to recognize that the school used the worship of JoePa and the football culture extensively in their marketing. They built their brand on his reputation. He was a huge part of the "official", administration-approved culture/brand of Penn State. To try to minimize that is counter-productive - we need to see it, and understand the role it played in creating incentive to cover up anything that didn't go along with the official image of JoePa's football program and by extension the University, so that we can at least try to prevent it from happening again.

 

Well said. :iagree:

[weaver_67579]

Believe it or not, but yes, people can choose a school because of football. Maybe they don't know that at first, but footbal schools run more than football off of football money. I went to OU because they gave me the biggest scholarship and I didn't have money (nor want loans) to go to university. Much, much later (after getting my doc elsewhere) I came back to OU and actually sat on a board that determined scholarship funding. MOST of the $$ available was there because of football in some way or another. Alumni pledges at football schools come in 10-fold more in a winning season than a losing one.

 

I.e. successful football program = big $$$$ all over the school.

 

and it is not just sports that are supported by that money

[weaver_67579]

Hitler was a great leader. Look what he got Germany to do! You have to be a great leader to get that many people to go against their consciences and do what the Germans did during WWII.

 

Why are you so bent on defending this guy?

 

I am merely pointing out that people that still think he was a good coach are not bad people and that Joe Pa was not all bad or all good either. He can have good contributions to society and bad... just like me... and you (as in whoever you) and even Hitler-I hear he did a lot to improve the infrastructure of Germany. That does not make him a good human being, but he still did improve the infrastructure.

 

Why are you so bent on overlooking or even trying to take away any good he has ever done? I am capable of acknowledge both, without condoning his bad behavior.

[weaver_67579]

Covering up child rape and enabling a child predator for years equals poor management skills? :confused:

 

Character counts. The music would sound like garbage to me if I knew he enabled child rape. I don't care how good a conductor he was.

 

How is a conductor of an hypothetical orchestra with a bunch of drunk players = Joe Pa and child rape. It was used (along with me being the drunk that plays the piano well) as an example to show that people can be good and bad and it is ok to acknowlege both. One does not cancel out the other-people are both. I also never gave him a pass on his character flaws or lack of character. He can be lacking there and still have been an acomplished coach. I am finding it interesting that people cannot understand that. Maybe some just want to hate so much that they cannot see the truth in what I say...that people can be good and bad...

[Acorn]

I will never be able to see good in someone who condones child abuse. Some things are inexcusable.

[Caroline]

While I like to see Bobby and FSU on top, I have to say that I don't think Bobby would want the title this way. It's kind of tainted, KWIM?

 

I thought Bobby Bowden's statements today were appropriate and did reflect that he didn't really care about the title. He cared about Sandusky getting the deserved punishment and that kids would be safe. I am not an FSU fan, but I really gained more respect for Bobby Bowden today.

[Kathryn]

I thought Bobby Bowden's statements today were appropriate and did reflect that he didn't really care about the title. He cared about Sandusky getting the deserved punishment and that kids would be safe. I am not an FSU fan, but I really gained more respect for Bobby Bowden today.

 

I agree. The article I read also stated the number of wins for each, noting that Bowden's was once higher but was reduced by a self-reported academic scandal at the university.

[NittanyJen]

that he really is still the winningest coach? Even if they aren't official-like we don't know they actually won those games? What do people think we are stupid? Do you think fans of Joe Pa will now be like oh no his wins aren't official so I don't think they count to me? are our memories going to we wiped like Men in Black?:tongue_smilie:

 

Do the student athletes now have to leave that off their resume too? Oh well I was part of the team that won XYZ bowl in XYZ year but now we lost-seems kind of silly and petty to me.

 

It was extremely petty, and you are correct, games are won on the field, not awarded by the NCAA. No matter how they wish to call it, if we defeated another team 56-0, they will look kind of stupid claiming some kind of victory.

 

Where are the sanctions against ESPN for covering for Syracuse's coach while he continued to assault boys for another 10 years? Why not bar them from covering collegiate sports for five years?

 

Oh, right. Because none of this stuff from the NCAA has anything to do with concern for the kids. It is a naked power grab; it set a precedent by which they can ignore their own procedural safeguards and bylaws at will, when Penn State was in a position of being unable to protest without seeming crass.

[pageta]

It was extremely petty, and you are correct, games are won on the field, not awarded by the NCAA. No matter how they wish to call it, if we defeated another team 56-0, they will look kind of stupid claiming some kind of victory.

 

If a team lost to Penn State in one of the games that was forfeited, it is still shown as a loss on that team's record. So it is a loss-loss for the recordbooks.

[pdalley]

How is a conductor of an hypothetical orchestra with a bunch of drunk players = Joe Pa and child rape. It was used (along with me being the drunk that plays the piano well) as an example to show that people can be good and bad and it is ok to acknowlege both. One does not cancel out the other-people are both. I also never gave him a pass on his character flaws or lack of character. He can be lacking there and still have been an acomplished coach. I am finding it interesting that people cannot understand that. Maybe some just want to hate so much that they cannot see the truth in what I say...that people can be good and bad...

 

What I'm saying is that some things can be overlooked and some just can't. At least that's the way it is for me. I can't look at raw sewage and see something good in it.

 

I just do not see how you can look past someone covering up child rape to preserve their legacy and see a basically good person. Or care if he's an accomplished coach. If he's not a decent human being then the coach part doesn't matter to me. It's like saying Charles Mason was great for taking all those kids in - so what if he got them to murder some random strangers. I'm sure there are some good things about Charles Manson but you can't overlook the murders.

 

I'm saying I can't see past enabling child rape. If it were a lesser crime - maybe. But it isn't.

 

And it drives me nuts when I get dismissed as a 'hater' because I hold people to a standard of decency. I do not hate Joe Paterno. I just can't get past him overlooking and enabling Sandusky's reign of terror when he could of stopped it. That doesn't make me a hater. Just because I read the NCAA's report and think they actually got something right for once does not make me a hater.

 

I really do not understand how covering this up and enabling it can be justified. http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy

Edited July 24, 2012 by pdalley

[NittanyJen]

I thought Bobby Bowden's statements today were appropriate and did reflect that he didn't really care about the title. He cared about Sandusky getting the deserved punishment and that kids would be safe. I am not an FSU fan, but I really gained more respect for Bobby Bowden today.

 

I am not a Bowden fan, but it was nice to see him acting with decency. As a competitor, I am sure he does not consider it a win as it was not won on the field. I think he has the integrity to not want t this way, and to be sad that Joe never got a chance to give his side.

[pageta]

How is a conductor of an hypothetical orchestra with a bunch of drunk players = Joe Pa and child rape. It was used (along with me being the drunk that plays the piano well) as an example to show that people can be good and bad and it is ok to acknowlege both. One does not cancel out the other-people are both. I also never gave him a pass on his character flaws or lack of character. He can be lacking there and still have been an acomplished coach. I am finding it interesting that people cannot understand that. Maybe some just want to hate so much that they cannot see the truth in what I say...that people can be good and bad...

 

Sandusky was a good coach. He was to be the next head coach after Paterno. But Sandusky was using Penn St facilities to attract and rape these boys right under Paterno's nose, even after he had been relieved from his duties as coach at the age of 55. He continued committing the same crimes in the same place even though he no longer had any reason to be there.

 

Yes, Paterno is an accomplished coach, but lack of courage in this matter unfortunately outweighs any great coaching he may have done (which means it's really bad).

[pdalley]

I am not a Bowden fan, but it was nice to see him acting with decency. As a competitor, I am sure he does not consider it a win as it was not won on the field. I think he has the integrity to not want t this way, and to be sad that Joe never got a chance to give his side.

 

Joe had a chance. He lied to the grand jury. Joe had a chance when he found out about the 1998 investigation. Joe had a chance again in 2001 but he 'didn't want to ruin someone's weekend'.

 

Poor Joe.

 

I'll save my sympathy for that poor little boy in the shower than NONE of them cared enough to find.

[NittanyJen]

Hitler was a great leader. Look what he got Germany to do! You have to be a great leader to get that many people to go against their consciences and do what the Germans did during WWII.

 

Why are you so bent on defending this guy?

 

WHOA.

 

Stop. Time.out.

 

Major.line.crossed.

 

I wouldn't even know where to begin listing how many things are wrong with the above.

 

Now I know people have really lost all perspective.

[UnsinkableKristen]

WHOA.

 

Stop. Time.out.

 

Major.line.crossed.

 

I wouldn't even know where to begin listing how many things are wrong with the above.

 

Now I know people have really lost all perspective.

 

 

Nah, it's just Godwin's law at play again.

[Galatea]

Sandusky was a good coach. He was to be the next head coach after Paterno. But Sandusky was using Penn St facilities to attract and rape these boys right under Paterno's nose, even after he had been relieved from his duties as coach at the age of 55. He continued committing the same crimes in the same place even though he no longer had any reason to be there.

 

Yes, Paterno is an accomplished coach, but lack of courage in this matter unfortunately outweighs any great coaching he may have done (which means it's really bad).

 

Heck, Sandusky still had his keys to the locker room when he was arrested, and an open investigation had been going on for quite a while. Even then, Paterno and the others couldn't bring themselves to do something to stop him.

[pageta]

WHOA.

 

Stop. Time.out.

 

Major.line.crossed.

 

I wouldn't even know where to begin listing how many things are wrong with the above.

 

Now I know people have really lost all perspective.

 

I'm not saying that his atrocities add up to Hitler's. I'm just saying you can take about anybody and say "he was a good coach" or "he was a good leader."

[Spy Car]

I don't have the answers to how to deal with this shameful tragedy.

 

I don't hate football. The truth is I loved playing the game. I played 8 years of youth and High School football and then a couple more years of "semi-pro" (which was more "semi" than "pro"). I love the game.

 

And I don't want to punish innocent people for the actions of a few.

 

But wow. I just don't feel the sort of remorse here across the country that I'd expect of actions that were this monsterously vile on the part of Sandusky and people in authority at Penn State, including the beloved (by some) Joe Paterno.

 

Coach Paterno failed. Moral leadership is job one as a coach as far as I'm concerned. His actions made him an accomplice to child rape. It is inexcusable!

 

I'm not on the ground in PA. I'm sure I'm not privy to all the details, nor have a full understanding of life at Penn State at the moment. But from here I am shocked at the excuses being made for "Joe Pa" and frankly it makes me sick.

 

I wish there were spontaneous shows of support for the victims. That students were pulling the Paterno name off the library instead of defending the man.

 

In this context I'd be more in favor of shutting down Penn State football for a solid decade (10 years) so that there would never be a question in anyones minds—including those of the victims of sexual abuse at Penn State—that anything like this will ever be tolerated, or swept under the rug.

 

I hate to saw it but to me it seems there is something seriously wrong with the football "culture" that has developed at Penn State. I think it was inexplicably bound up in the actions of the school's president, the athletic director, and Joe Paterno in covering up, and thereby aiding and abetting Jerry Sandusky in his perverted crimes.

 

So were it up to me I think we'd bid good-bye to football at Penn State until 2022. I don't yet see the NCAA decision as being the sort of "reality check" that some Nittnay Lions seem to require to wake up and see that there are more important endeavors than football.

 

My heart breaks for the boys Paterno allowed to be abused when he could have—and should have—stopped these crimes long ago. I'm sad to say I don't think the crowd at Penn State gets it. I hope I'm proved wrong.

 

Bill

Edited July 24, 2012 by Spy Car

[NittanyJen]

Joe had a chance. He lied to the grand jury. Joe had a chance when he found out about the 1998 investigation. Joe had a chance again in 2001 but he 'didn't want to ruin someone's weekend'.

 

Poor Joe.

 

I'll save my sympathy for that poor little boy in the shower than NONE of them cared enough to find.

 

I didn't ask for sympathy for Joe.

 

In 1998, an investigation cleared Sandusky of any wrongdoing. Not sure what you expected Joe, who was not Sandusky's supervisor at that point, to do about an ex-employee who had been apparently falsely accused (at that time).

 

And, according to the evidence presented in the Freeh report, there still is none that Joe knew in '98. There is email between Curley and Schultz, referencing 'Coach,' where in 1900 other pieces email Joe was always referred to as 'Joe.'. Freeh is guessing --only guessing-- that the coach anxious to know the status of the investigation is Paterno, being referred to by a different term in this one and only instance, rather than say, Sandusky, who knew he was being investigated and would also have been anxious to know what was up. There is no sound reason to assume that email refers to Paterno instead of Sandusky.

 

Such unfounded suppositions appear throughout the report.

 

Joe's 2001 statement, I agree with you, was horrible. He should have called Schultz, the head of police and whose job it was to notify C&Y, immediately even if it was 2am, and demanded a powwow with all authorities. I still have doubts that McQueary was very clear as he needed to be with Joe, but yes, a coach should be proactive and take the lead.

[Galatea]

but that doesn't make it right-ever. I think what bothers me so much is that many of the same people that are so horrified at the innocent boys suffering (and who isn't) are more than ok with other innocent people being punished for it-some it seems with glee-in the stick it to them good because the whole culture is bad kind of way. I can't wrap my head around that the almost hateful and vengeful way it comes off and the complete lack of care for those that will be affected through no fault of their own.

 

There is actually a lot written about the usefulness of group or collective punishments. These punishments can be very effective when we don't know with certainty who was at fault. You have to remember that the NCAA doesn't care about Sandusky, it is the government who has tried him criminally. The NCAA is punishing the people who knew about the abuse and looked the other way. THOSE people are ones that we may never know, because they gain nothing by admitting it but looking bad publicly. So there are people out there who let boys be raped because they wanted to protect football programs and money. Group sanctions are used to punish them.

 

If you're actually interested in understanding the reasons behind group punishment this is an academic piece published by UCONN that explains and evaluates the use of collective punishment.

[mom2hunangirls]

At the time Sandusky was barred from campus (?) what did every one think it was about? And why did he stop coaching?

I don't keep up with sports at all, but I thought both things were tied to suspicions?? If it was suspicions, how could everyone say they had no idea?

[Juniper]

I don't have the answers to how to deal with this shameful tragedy.

 

I don't hate football. The truth is I loved playing the game. I played 8 years of youth and High School football and then a couple more years of "semi-pro" (which was more "semi" than "pro"). I love the game.

 

And I don't want to punish innocent people for the actions of a few.

 

But wow. I just don't feel the sort of remorse here across the country that I'd expect of actions that were this monsterously vile on the part of Sandusky and people in authority at Penn State, including the beloved (by some) Joe Paterno.

 

Coach Paterno failed. Moral leadership is job one as a coach as far as I'm concerned. His actions made him an accomplice to child rape. It is inexcusable!

 

I'm not on the ground in PA. I'm sure I'm not privy to all the details, nor have a full understanding of life at Penn State at the moment. But from here I am shocked at the excuses being made for "Joe Pa" and frankly it makes me sick.

 

I wish there were spontaneous shows of support for the victims. That students were pulling the Paterno name off the library instead of defending the man.

 

In this context I'd be more in favor of shutting down Penn State football for a solid decade (10 years) so that there would never be a question in anyones minds—including those of the victims of sexual abuse at Penn State—that anything like this will ever bet tolerated, or swept under the rug.

 

I hate to saw it but to me it seems there is something seriously went with the football "culture" that has developed at Penn State. I think it was inexplicably bound up in the actions of the school's president, the athletic director, and Joe Paterno in covering up, and thereby aiding and abetting Jerry Sandusky in his perverted crimes.

 

So were it up to me I thick we'd bid good-bye to football at Penn State until 2022. I don't yet see the NCAA decision as being the sort of "reality check" that some Nittnay Lions seem to require to wake up and see that there are more important endeavors than football.

 

My heart breaks for the boys Paterno allowed to be abused when he could have—and should have—stopped these crimes long ago. I'm sad to say I don't think the crowd at Penn State gets it. I hope I'm proved wrong.

 

Bill

 

Thank you, Bill. I really cannot say more as I am in a very painful sort of shock over the things I am reading here and elsewhere.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

It was extremely petty, and you are correct, games are won on the field, not awarded by the NCAA. No matter how they wish to call it, if we defeated another team 56-0, they will look kind of stupid claiming some kind of victory.

 

Where are the sanctions against ESPN for covering for Syracuse's coach while he continued to assault boys for another 10 years? Why not bar them from covering collegiate sports for five years?

 

Oh, right. Because none of this stuff from the NCAA has anything to do with concern for the kids. It is a naked power grab; it set a precedent by which they can ignore their own procedural safeguards and bylaws at will, when Penn State was in a position of being unable to protest without seeming crass.

 

You have some issues with your argument.

1.) Bernie Fine has not been convicted of anything, and at least one accuser has said he fabricated the charge.

2.) The NCAA does not have the power to sanction ESPN. ESPN is not a member of the NCAA, and current sports contracts are negotiated via conferences not through the NCAA.

[NittanyJen]

Bill,

 

Penn State gets it. Frankly, some of us wonder if anyone else on the outside does. The students and alumni have been taking proactive steps to raise funds and support discovery of actual facts, instead of supporting a witch hunt and blindly accepting half truths and guesses and half-baked theories presented as factual.

 

We sadly accept that the truth will take years to unravel, and to some extent will never be fully known.

 

And unlike the rest of the nation focusing on football and Paterno, we have never forgotten Sandusky, the victims, or who we really are in the face of all the ridiculous stereotypes and irresponsible stereotypes people promulgate about us and who we are.

 

--Not proud of what happened to those kids, but always proud to be a Nittany Lion,

 

 

 

I don't have the answers to how to deal with this shameful tragedy.

 

I don't hate football. The truth is I loved playing the game. I played 8 years of youth and High School football and then a couple more years of "semi-pro" (which was more "semi" than "pro"). I love the game.

 

And I don't want to punish innocent people for the actions of a few.

 

But wow. I just don't feel the sort of remorse here across the country that I'd expect of actions that were this monsterously vile on the part of Sandusky and people in authority at Penn State, including the beloved (by some) Joe Paterno.

 

Coach Paterno failed. Moral leadership is job one as a coach as far as I'm concerned. His actions made him an accomplice to child rape. It is inexcusable!

 

I'm not on the ground in PA. I'm sure I'm not privy to all the details, nor have a full understanding of life at Penn State at the moment. But from here I am shocked at the excuses being made for "Joe Pa" and frankly it makes me sick.

 

I wish there were spontaneous shows of support for the victims. That students were pulling the Paterno name off the library instead of defending the man.

 

In this context I'd be more in favor of shutting down Penn State football for a solid decade (10 years) so that there would never be a question in anyones minds—including those of the victims of sexual abuse at Penn State—that anything like this will ever bet tolerated, or swept under the rug.

 

I hate to saw it but to me it seems there is something seriously went with the football "culture" that has developed at Penn State. I think it was inexplicably bound up in the actions of the school's president, the athletic director, and Joe Paterno in covering up, and thereby aiding and abetting Jerry Sandusky in this perverted crimes.

 

So were it up to me I thick we'd bid good-bye to football at Penn State until 2022. I don't yet see the NCAA decision as being the sort of "reality check" that some Nittnay Lions seem to require to wake up and see that there are more important endeavors than football.

 

My heart breaks for the boys Paterno allowed to be abused when he could have—and should have—stopped these crimes long ago. I'm sad to say I don't think the crowd at Penn State gets it. I hope I'm proved wrong.

 

Bill

[NittanyJen]

You have some issues with your argument.

1.) Bernie Fine has not been convicted of anything, and at least one accuser has said he fabricated the charge.

2.) The NCAA does not have the power to sanction ESPN. ESPN is not a member of the NCAA, and current sports contracts are negotiated via conferences not through the NCAA.

 

The NCAA can certainly pressure conferences to not enter contracts with ESPN. They demonstrated today their own bylaws mean nothing to them. If they permit contracts with ESPN, their supposed moral stance follows it right out the window.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

The NCAA can certainly pressure conferences to not enter contracts with ESPN. They demonstrated today their own bylaws mean nothing to them. If they permit contracts with ESPN, their supposed moral stance follows it right out the window.

 

They can pressure all they want. The NCAA is made up of member institutions most of whom use ESPN for revenue. The membership will not agree to restricting conference contracts, and the power was taken from the NCAA long ago for a reason. (Hint: $$$)

 

You are also ignoring point #1. Unlike PSU, the primary villain has not been proven to be guilty of anything.

 

I will address some of your other statements shortly. While I advocated throughout this thread that PSU NOT get the death penalty (and angered quite a few while doing so), I do not believe they are absolved from receiving NCAA sanctions. The information used by the NCAA was paid for by PSU, and signed off on by your president and BOT. The sanctions received the approval of your president. The NCAA did step slightly outside of its normal procedure, but did so with the agreement of PSU.

[Riverland]

Joe had a chance. He lied to the grand jury. Joe had a chance when he found out about the 1998 investigation. Joe had a chance again in 2001 but he 'didn't want to ruin someone's weekend'.

:iagree: And, the Paterno family's reaction is so, so sad. Such blind denial.

 

WHOA.

 

Stop. Time.out.

 

Major.line.crossed.

 

If only Joe had said this to Jerry.

 

 

I don't have the answers to how to deal with this shameful tragedy.

 

I don't hate football. The truth is I loved playing the game. I played 8 years of youth and High School football and then a couple more years of "semi-pro" (which was more "semi" than "pro"). I love the game.

 

And I don't want to punish innocent people for the actions of a few.

 

But wow. I just don't feel the sort of remorse here across the country that I'd expect of actions that were this monsterously vile on the part of Sandusky and people in authority at Penn State, including the beloved (by some) Joe Paterno.

 

Coach Paterno failed. Moral leadership is job one as a coach as far as I'm concerned. His actions made him an accomplice to child rape. It is inexcusable!

 

I'm not on the ground in PA. I'm sure I'm not privy to all the details, nor have a full understanding of life at Penn State at the moment. But from here I am shocked at the excuses being made for "Joe Pa" and frankly it makes me sick.

 

I wish there were spontaneous shows of support for the victims. That students were pulling the Paterno name off the library instead of defending the man.

 

In this context I'd be more in favor of shutting down Penn State football for a solid decade (10 years) so that there would never be a question in anyones minds—including those of the victims of sexual abuse at Penn State—that anything like this will ever be tolerated, or swept under the rug.

 

I hate to saw it but to me it seems there is something seriously wrong with the football "culture" that has developed at Penn State. I think it was inexplicably bound up in the actions of the school's president, the athletic director, and Joe Paterno in covering up, and thereby aiding and abetting Jerry Sandusky in his perverted crimes.

 

So were it up to me I think we'd bid good-bye to football at Penn State until 2022. I don't yet see the NCAA decision as being the sort of "reality check" that some Nittnay Lions seem to require to wake up and see that there are more important endeavors than football.

 

My heart breaks for the boys Paterno allowed to be abused when he could have—and should have—stopped these crimes long ago. I'm sad to say I don't think the crowd at Penn State gets it. I hope I'm proved wrong.

 

Bill

 

Excellent post, Bill.

[Spy Car]

Bill,

 

Penn State gets it. Frankly, some of us wonder if anyone else on the outside does. The students and alumni have been taking proactive steps to raise funds and support discovery of actual facts, instead of supporting a witch hunt and blindly accepting half truths and guesses and half-baked theories presented as factual.

 

It seriously doesn't sound like that to me. I do not believe the investigation by Louis Freeh Was a "witch hunt" or an investigation based on half-truths. There evidence is documented, and it is ****ing.

 

Money rolling in to protect the reputation of Joe Paterno, sadly, looks like more proof Penn State fans just do not get it. It is why I think the sanctions by the NCAA are insufficient.

 

We sadly accept that the truth will take years to unravel, and to some extent will never be fully known.

 

The truth that Joe Paterno and the administration of the school put football above protecting boys from being raped on campus is clear. That truth is enough to expect a genuine sense of contrition rather than excuse making.

 

And unlike the rest of the nation focusing on football and Paterno, we have never forgotten Sandusky, the victims, or who we really are in the face of all the ridiculous stereotypes and irresponsible stereotypes people promulgate about us and who we are.

 

--Not proud of what happened to those kids, but always proud to be a Nittany Lion,

 

If the student and alumni of Penn State want to show they are serious they will pull Paterno's name off the school library and take actions to show how sorry they are about what happened on their campus.

 

Instead we see riots over Joe Pa being fired. There is a morality disconnect at Penn State, and that is not something about which one should feel proud.

 

Bill

[Mommy22alyns]

It's reality.

 

I'm supposed to be upset that some innocents might be inconvenienced? Children were raped. A predator was enabled for years and years. That's what I'll concentrate my outrage on. I feel no glee over anyone suffering but my head wants to explode that people would equate being inconvenienced to what those children experienced.

 

Really...

 

 

Absolutely agree. What on earth!??!? :confused:

[pdalley]

I didn't ask for sympathy for Joe.

 

In 1998, an investigation cleared Sandusky of any wrongdoing. Not sure what you expected Joe, who was not Sandusky's supervisor at that point, to do about an ex-employee who had been apparently falsely accused (at that time).

 

And, according to the evidence presented in the Freeh report, there still is none that Joe knew in '98. There is email between Curley and Schultz, referencing 'Coach,' where in 1900 other pieces email Joe was always referred to as 'Joe.'. Freeh is guessing --only guessing-- that the coach anxious to know the status of the investigation is Paterno, being referred to by a different term in this one and only instance, rather than say, Sandusky, who knew he was being investigated and would also have been anxious to know what was up. There is no sound reason to assume that email refers to Paterno instead of Sandusky.

 

Such unfounded suppositions appear throughout the report.

 

Joe's 2001 statement, I agree with you, was horrible. He should have called Schultz, the head of police and whose job it was to notify C&Y, immediately even if it was 2am, and demanded a powwow with all authorities. I still have doubts that McQueary was very clear as he needed to be with Joe, but yes, a coach should be proactive and take the lead.

 

 

Penn State ordered the Freeh report. They agreed to be bound by it. I read it. All of it. I don't see how what you refer to is questionable.

 

Joe Paterno enabled a child predator. He protected him. He wasn't the only one. There's more than one email connecting Joe Paterno to preventing them from reporting Sandusky to the authorities. He also lied to a grand jury. I have no doubt he knew exactly what McQuery saw. He didn't want to ruin someone's weekend? A child's life was ruined!

 

He wishes he'd done more? I wish he'd done something.

 

So Joe doesn't get due process? Well, due process didn't make him the saint of Penn State. The court of public opinion did. It will also judge his legacy.

 

I cannot understand the constant justification and deification of Joe. Why the heck didn't he try to find that little boy if he was truly such a great man?

Edited July 24, 2012 by pdalley

[weaver_67579]

It's reality.

 

I'm supposed to be upset that some innocents might be inconvenienced? Children were raped. A predator was enabled for years and years. That's what I'll concentrate my outrage on. I feel no glee over anyone suffering but my head wants to explode that people would equate being inconvenienced to what those children experienced.

 

Really...

 

I did not say it was the same or equal. I saw nobody that said they weren't outraged by the molestation of those children on here or even among my alumni friends. The man that perpetrated that crime is in jail and if most of the people I know had a say-that would be the kindest fate he could ask for. A bunch of people deservedly lost their jobs for being involved and will be prosecuted for the role they played in the cover-up. Joe Pa is dead. The university and all involved will be sued beyond belief. I did say that two (or more) wrongs will never make a right. I am in no way belittling the victims and do not understand where the idea has come from that I do not find their treatment horrible. I did not say anyone should be upset. I did say I was. What is wrong with being upset when innocent people are punished for something they didn't do? Is losing a job merely an inconvience? Wow-I would be much more than inconvenienced if DH lost his job. My sister and her family live up near Penn State one of them losing their job due to the local economy tanking would not be out of the question. I have friends and former co-workers (I did work study at the university for 4 years at one of the agricultural research facilities) that still work for the university or have businesses in town... it would be more than an inconvenience for them. Maybe it is just that many on here are far removed from the seemingly acceptable "collateral damage" than I am.

[pdalley]

It seriously doesn't sound like that to me. I do not believe the investigation by Louis Freeh Was a "witch hunt" or an investigation based on half-truths. There evidence is documented, and it is ****ing.

 

Money rolling in to protect the reputation of Joe Paterno, sadly, looks like more proof Penn State fans just do not get it. It is why I think the sanctions by the NCAA are insufficient.

 

 

 

The truth that Joe Paterno and the administration of the school put football above protecting boys from being raped on campus is clear. That truth is enough to expect a genuine sense of contrition rather than excuse making.

 

 

 

If the student and alumni of Penn State want to show they are serious they will pull Paterno's name off the school library and take actions to show how sorry they are about what happened on their campus.

 

Instead we see riots over Joe Pa being fired. There is a morality disconnect at Penn State, and that is not something about which one should feel proud.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

 

Bill, you have said it better than I ever could. Really. This is one of the most heinous crimes in existence and the hoops being jumped through to justify a cover up are just beyond my comprehension.

 

The President of Penn State - the current one - seems to 'get' it. He is accepting the Freeh report they commissioned. He is accepting the penalty from the NCAA. He is taking the responsibility that none of the others - Spanier, Curley, Paterno, etc did. Even though he wasn't there at the time.

[Trish]

The family is obviously in denial and hurting, but I think they need to stop speaking publicly for a while.

 

Maybe if they scream loudly enough from a basement, someone will hear them. The wife, at least, should try it.

 

Anyway, yes, there are a lot of innocent victims in this (maybe a better term would be "collateral damage?"): current football players, the students, the community itself that will surely suffer a loss of revenue. At the same time, these populations also BENEFITED from Paterno & Company's silence. Now they are suffering from it. But the way I see it, the innocent people who will be harmed by the NCAA's punishment are victims of Sandusky (and Paterno et al,) not the NCAA.

 

To put it more simply, if a parent commits a crime and has to spend a number of years in jail, the children are being "punished" with loss of a parent. That isn't the fault of the legal system, it's the fault of the parent who committed the crime.

[weaver_67579]

Absolutely agree. What on earth!??!? :confused:

 

Who said anyone wasn't outraged by what happened to those boys? Everyone I know is! I also know that nobody I know equated the wrong done to the boys and the punishment to be absorbed by those in the Penn State community that did no wrong. Who said they were equal? I sure hope nobody was putting those words in my mouth. :glare:

[pdalley]

I did not say it was the same or equal. I saw nobody that said they weren't outraged by the molestation of those children on here or even among my alumni friends. The man that perpetrated that crime is in jail and if most of the people I know had a say-that would be the kindest fate he could ask for. A bunch of people deservedly lost their jobs for being involved and will be prosecuted for the role they played in the cover-up. Joe Pa is dead. The university and all involved will be sued beyond belief. I did say that two (or more) wrongs will never make a right. I am in no way belittling the victims and do not understand where the idea has come from that I do not find their treatment horrible. I did not say anyone should be upset. I did say I was. What is wrong with being upset when innocent people are punished for something they didn't do? Is losing a job merely an inconvience? Wow-I would be much more than inconvenienced if DH lost his job. My sister and her family live up near Penn State one of them losing their job due to the local economy tanking would not be out of the question. I have friends and former co-workers (I did work study at the university for 4 years at one of the agricultural research facilities) that still work for the university or have businesses in town... it would be more than an inconvenience for them. Maybe it is just that many on here are far removed from the seemingly acceptable "collateral damage" than I am.

 

Compared to being raped as a child - losing a job is an inconvenience. You can - more often than not - find another job eventually.

 

Child rape is like the murder of the child's soul. It can't be completely fixed or undone.

 

And innocents always always suffer. We can't prevent it. We can only try to minimize it in cases like this. We certainly can't pretend that it never happened. The entire culture of Penn State and it's obsession with football needs to be changed. That wasn't a statue - it was a shrine.

[redsquirrel]

:iagree:The current players had nothing to do with what happened then. I think it's sad that uninvolved people have to suffer the consequences of some with reprehensible judgment.

 

It is that kind of thinking that caused good people to keep their mouths shut and turn their faces from the evil right in front of them. There was always going to be fallout due to this. In an attempt to avoid consequences for innocent people it permitted the evil to continue.

 

The school has shown that all it values is money. This punishment is in a language they can understand.

 

I think they should have been banned from football one year for every guilty count. That would have been..approx 45 years.

[weaver_67579]

What I'm saying is that some things can be overlooked and some just can't. At least that's the way it is for me. I can't look at raw sewage and see something good in it.

 

I just do not see how you can look past someone covering up child rape to preserve their legacy and see a basically good person. Or care if he's an accomplished coach. If he's not a decent human being then the coach part doesn't matter to me. It's like saying Charles Mason was great for taking all those kids in - so what if he got them to murder some random strangers. I'm sure there are some good things about Charles Manson but you can't overlook the murders.

 

I'm saying I can't see past enabling child rape. If it were a lesser crime - maybe. But it isn't.

 

And it drives me nuts when I get dismissed as a 'hater' because I hold people to a standard of decency. I do not hate Joe Paterno. I just can't get past him overlooking and enabling Sandusky's reign of terror when he could of stopped it. That doesn't make me a hater. Just because I read the NCAA's report and think they actually got something right for once does not make me a hater.

 

I really do not understand how covering this up and enabling it can be justified. http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy

 

Did I say to that I overlooked anything? or that anyone else should? I can't find it...I don't even think I said I thought Joe Pa was a good person. I didn't know him well enough to determine that for myself either way. Nobody asked anyone else to like him or care if he was an accomplished coach either. What I did say over and over and over is that innocent people should not be punished for the guilty and that Joe Pa, and really every person, is neither entirely good or entirely bad. By extension, the people that still like Joe Pa or admire his coaching skill...or whatever are not necessarily wrong or bad either. Joe Pa was an effective coach as is evidenced by his large number of wins. That fact is not changed by the fact that he covered up the molestation of the boys. Both can be true. By saying that, I am not excusing or overlooking any wrongdoing on his part. I am merely stating two facts that are not mutually exclusive... I didn't think that would be so hard to understand.

[weaver_67579]

Sandusky was a good coach. He was to be the next head coach after Paterno. But Sandusky was using Penn St facilities to attract and rape these boys right under Paterno's nose, even after he had been relieved from his duties as coach at the age of 55. He continued committing the same crimes in the same place even though he no longer had any reason to be there.

 

Yes, Paterno is an accomplished coach, but lack of courage in this matter unfortunately outweighs any great coaching he may have done (which means it's really bad).

 

Sandusky was a good coach.... and a disgusting criminal creep. He is both. I didn't see anyone put any weight as to what part of Joe Pa should be put first. Just like Sandusky, Joe Pa did good and bad deeds. One does not make the other untrue.

[Trish]

Did I say to that I overlooked anything? or that anyone else should? I can't find it...I don't even think I said I thought Joe Pa was a good person. I didn't know him well enough to determine that for myself either way. Nobody asked anyone else to like him or care if he was an accomplished coach either. What I did say over and over and over is that innocent people should not be punished for the guilty and that Joe Pa, and really every person, is neither entirely good or entirely bad. By extension, the people that still like Joe Pa or admire his coaching skill...or whatever are not necessarily wrong or bad either. Joe Pa was an effective coach as is evidenced by his large number of wins. That fact is not changed by the fact that he covered up the molestation of the boys. Both can be true. By saying that, I am not excusing or overlooking any wrongdoing on his part. I am merely stating two facts that are not mutually exclusive... I didn't think that would be so hard to understand.

 

When you benefit from an entity that has done evil, then you get harmed when the entity is punished. That's the math. Too bad Jerry didn't consider the innocent people who would be harmed by his actions. Too bad Joe & Co. didn't consider the innocent people who would be harmed by their INactions.

 

See Joe. See Joe Coach. See Team Win.

 

Hear Boys Be Abused. See No Evil. Speak No Evil.

 

Have No Legacy.

 

I don't really care if he was an effective coach if he was an ineffective human being when it mattered most.

[weaver_67579]

Compared to being raped as a child - losing a job is an inconvenience. You can - more often than not - find another job eventually.

 

Child rape is like the murder of the child's soul. It can't be completely fixed or undone.

 

And innocents always always suffer. We can't prevent it. We can only try to minimize it in cases like this. We certainly can't pretend that it never happened. The entire culture of Penn State and it's obsession with football needs to be changed. That wasn't a statue - it was a shrine.

 

and am pretty sure I never said I was... I find what I perceive as a lack of caring for the seemingly acceptable "collateral damage" very sad. A lot of people do seem to be pretending the inevitable collateral damage won't happen or doesn't at all matter. There will be some to which it matters a great deal. Obviously what the boys went through can never be undone. I still will not trivialize the impact on individuals and the whole community. I still don't get the well at least it isn't this bad... so that must make it ok argument. I find neither to be ok.

 

I can also assure you that the entire culture of Penn State is not obsessed with football... being as I am included in that as an alumnus I am not at all a football fan ;)