s/o the "Fat" threads - what about kids' diets?

[SKL]

What do we know about the most healthy diets for growing kids?

 

I've always kept it fairly low-fat around here since my kids were tots. We don't eat meat every day, either, but we do a fair amount of lowfat / fat-free dairy. Our carb consumption varies a lot, though I try to work whole grains in when I can. Fruits and veggies are probably sufficient, but heavier on the fruits since the kids like them better.

 

What is the wisdom out there about kids' nutrition? I'm sure there are various opposing views, but I'd like to hear them. If there is complementing info on kids' exercise, throw that in too.

[amy g.]

I don't believe processed fat free products are healthy for anyone.

 

We eat fresh eggs, raw dairy, unprocessed meats, healthy fats and tons of fresh fruit and vegetables.

[SKL]

I should probably note that when I say we keep it pretty low fat around here, I mean we don't do butter on bread and gravy from animal fat and stuff like that, except for Sunday dinner when my sister cooks. I drink fat-free milk so that's what my kids drink too (at dinner), but for breakfast they drink liquid yogurt (organic) which is made with lowfat milk. Their daycare serves 2% milk with lunch for all kids over 2. If something comes from nature with fat in it, other than milk, we eat it that way.

 

I do have one child who gains fat quickly if her diet is fatty. She's been on our regular diet since before age 2 and is very intelligent, so I don't think it's hurting her any. Of course it's hard to say for sure.

[justamouse]

My kids eat as high fat I can give them. Lots of butter, whole milk, cheeses. IfI can put butter on it for them I do. We have so few processed foods it's negligible. My kids are skinny as all get out, and all of them have six packs, even the girls. Because they are so skinny, though I limit *sugar* in our daily lives, I do make them homemade bread, baked goods, and ice cream. They're not allowed to go to town on desserts, though. I have fruits around a lot.

 

 

We're not fat averse in my family, we're sugar averse. But I don't think they need to be as strict as I am.

[SKL]

Honestly, taking the emotion out of it, that other thread got me thinking a lot. I think maybe it's time I chilled a little on the fats and cut the starchy carbs.

 

The problem is that I LOOOOOOVE starchy carbs! But as I get older, I have gradually lost the need to pig out on them all the time. I guess I should thank my sister, who cooks a huge meal for us every Sunday and leaves the leftovers. I spend half the week eating the leftovers (heavy on the fatty meats etc.) and it hasn't killed me yet. However, last night I tried giving my kids low carb and they asked for bread and more bread.

[pixeldog]

We now eat high fat products as well, Wendy. I learned *a lot* about the benefits of traditional fats from the Weston A. Price Foundation (www.westonaprice.org) . I have always given my boys high quality fish oil, but have recently learned about the benefits of milk fat and grass fed meat fats. We're cutting out wheat, but we're loving the fat!

[justamouse]

This was the topic of Marks' blog post today. Is Wheat Addictive.

[Snickerdoodle]

We eat high fat. I cook with lard, butter, tallow, coconut oil. The only vegetable oil I tend to use is olive oil. And while I do eat meat regularly, it's actually not the bulk of my calorie intake. Really the bulk is through fat.

<snip>

I have several bowls of various fats on my counter. I'm pretty sure some people would faint dead at this thought.

This is us too, including the variety of fat on our counters too (lard, tallow, olive oil, bacon drippings, coconut oil)

[jenangelcat]

Kids need fat in their diets. It's essential to their development, which is why it's recommended that they eat full fat dairy products.

[Stellalarella]

Fats (hopefully good ones) seem to fill up the kids better. It's just exhausting to make a high carb breakfast (like hideous white pancakes with syrup) and then have the kids turn around in 45 minutes and say, "I'm hungry."

[Stacy in NJ]

My goal has been to reduce calories they get from carbs (mostly sugar and starch) and increase the calories they get from fat and protein.

 

My dss aren't sugar or carb free, but, as a percent of their diet, they've been significantly reduced in the past several months.

 

More eggs and bacon for breakfast, less cereal and fewer bagels.

 

More salads, veggies, ham, cheese, protein with dressing and or dip for lunch, less pizza, fewer sandwiches.

 

Less starches with dinner. Fewer potatoes, rice, pasta, more veggies, cheese, protein.

 

As long as my kids are fit, I'm not fussing overly much about it. We do talk about balancing our fat/protein/carb and why fats are good. Much of the public tells them it's better to eat a bagel than eggs and bacon, and I do need to correct that, so conversation is necessary.

 

Also, if they're going to eat sugar, I'd much rather they get fat or protein with it. So, if they want ice cream, I'd rather they eat the full fat Haggen Daz than the low-fat frozen yogurt. It's more filling and less likely to lead to cravings for more. If they want cookies, I'd rather they eat the buttery sugar cookies than the lower fat alternative.

 

We completely gave up sugar drinks. No soda, Gatorade, or fruit juice. Once in awhile they'll have diet soda - not daily.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Stacy in NJ

[SKL]

I appreciate all the fat advice, but what else is out there? Do kids do better with more or less carbs? Does it matter if they eat fruits but shun veggies? (I used to insist on veggies only to find they came out pretty much the same way they went in. But I kept insisting anyway . . . until I got tired of it.)

 

ETA, I might have set myself up by mentioning "fat" in my title, but I meant to spin off the discussion about the reason Americans are fat, not really just discuss fat in diets.

Edited July 19, 2012 by SKL

[SKL]

Is there any research or are we just figuring this out as we go? I'm very reluctant to apply research on overweight adults to growing kids, unless there is some basis for it.

[Amy in TX]

I eat pretty low carb because it keeps my weight under control and makes me feel good (after a lifetime of suffering, IBS is virtually gone!).

 

My kids eat grains, though, in moderation. I don't want grains to be the majority of their diet, as they were for me growing up. But I don't mind them eating a serving of whole wheat bread or pasta per meal. Always available for snacking are fruits, veggies, nuts, cheese.

 

What I am really unhappy about is the amount of junk food and sugar that has slowly crept into their diets. I am partly to blame. Our library has a snack bar (yes really!) because it is part of a community college campus, and we go there once a week. I've always allowed them a bag of chips or a pop tart there. And we have a habit of shopping at Target on Friday afternoons... Target has a snack bar. So they've been getting junk food from me twice a week. Which on its own is probably not the end of the world, except that they are getting it from so many other people these days too. Dh brings home cookies and donuts from meetings at work (don't want to waste them!), and BIL brings over a dozen cupcakes from Sprinkles once or twice a month, although I have more than once asked him not to. My mom and sister bake a lot, and bring their goodies over here frequently.

 

I've decided to cut out the snacks at the library and Target, since I can control those, and talk to dh about helping me seriously stem the tide of other stuff that is constantly coming into the house. Sigh...

[Joker]

Fats (hopefully good ones) seem to fill up the kids better. It's just exhausting to make a high carb breakfast (like hideous white pancakes with syrup) and then have the kids turn around in 45 minutes and say, "I'm hungry."

 

My dds must be weird. A few days ago youngest had three over easy eggs and a generous side of bacon. Less than two hours later she was eating again. Today, I fed her homemade waffles and fruit. She hasn't wanted anything else to eat yet and it's been 2.5 hours.

 

To the OP, I don't buy anything that's low fat except yogurt. That's only because we all like Fage and/or Chobani. I feel most things are good in moderation so I feed them that way. I don't focus on one food group or type more than any other. We do have some form of meat with every dinner and we make baked goods 2-3 times a week. They're healthy and definitely on the thin side, so I don't stress over it.

 

ETA: As far as carbs, my dds love them ~ mac n cheese, lasagna, baked ziti, spaghetti and meatballs, beans & rice. It's all homemade and when I make one of these dishes for dinner (1-2 times week), I know there will be enough leftovers for two dinners and one to two lunches. They eat a big salad and have plenty of raw veggies to choose from along with the main dish so no one is overdoing it on the carbs.

[Stacy in NJ]

Is there any research or are we just figuring this out as we go? I'm very reluctant to apply research on overweight adults to growing kids, unless there is some basis for it.

 

I agree with you. I don't think an extreme carb restricted diet is necessary for most kids. If they're already overweight then it might be a consideration. Absent that, I'd just have a look at your kids and their diet.

 

Are they currently healthy? Are they growing/gaining at a healthy clip?

 

I think once they approach puberty this becomes a more urgent issue. Some of their poor eating habits, if they have any, will manifest themselves in weight issues once those hormones kick in.

 

Overall, I'd just keep in the mind that the latest research tells us that fat isn't bad and is probably good, and that basically sugar is evil. Something our grandparents knew and warned us about.

[MIch elle]

Is your family overweight?

 

I would:

 

Cut or limit sugar (everything with sugar in it - soda, juice, cake, cookies, etc.)

Increase good fats (whole milk, butter, olive oil)

Increase whole grains (bread, cereals)

Decrease white products (potatoes, white bread, pasta)- IF your dc are overweight

[Firefly]

I don't believe processed fat free products are healthy for anyone.

 

We eat fresh eggs, raw dairy, unprocessed meats, healthy fats and tons of fresh fruit and vegetables.

 

:iagree: This is us exactly. I don't worry about fat, carbs, calories etc. We just enjoy a lot of fresh low/unprocessed foods. None of us are overweight.

[justamouse]

I agree with you. I don't think an extreme carb restricted diet is necessary for most kids. If they're already overweight then it might be a consideration. Absent that, I'd just have a look at your kids and their diet.

 

Are they currently healthy? Are they growing/gaining at a healthy clip?

 

I think once they approach puberty this becomes a more urgent issue. Some of their poor eating habits, if they have any, will manifest themselves in weight issues once those hormones kick in.

 

Overall, I'd just keep in the mind that the latest research tells us that fat isn't bad and is probably good, and that basically sugar is evil. Something our grandparents knew and warned us about.

 

SO true. I am reaping ill from letting my Dd17 too many carbs and sugar when she was smaller. She went to public school up until 4th, so after I brought her home, it was different, but by then she was on the chubbier side.

 

She shot through puberty and STILL wanted to eat like that and boy it was a wakeup call to her. She packed on the pounds. She had to really wrangle with her own eating habits, which she did, and she's svelte and gorgeous, but even she says she ate way too much sugar back then and it set her up for a world of hurt after that initial puberty spurt. Habits can make you or break you. How you develop the tastebuds of your kids is very important.

 

So now, though she's tall and thin, she's got the first signs of hypoglycemia, just like I did when I was her age. My youngers are *completely* different.

[SKL]

In response to some commenters, we are not overweight. But my kids' BMI percentiles are increasing over time, and as for me, I generally hover in the "I'd like to lose 5-10 lbs" space.

 

I'm not really sure what to make of the kids' BMIs (if anything). They are not fat (nor bony), so why do I care if their weight-height ratio is different from someone else's? Does anyone know how much BMI can vary from a muscular person to a couch potato of the same height and general build?

 

Like others have mentioned, I think I could be carefree if other people didn't feel the need to feed my kids crap. I did ask my sister to cut out the HCFS in the food she cooks weekly for us. I thought she'd be irritated, but I now think she's finding it interesting to read the labels and see what's really in the stuff we eat. I find that it helps to give people positive choices for feeding my kids versus just wishing they wouldn't do it. "You can share your fruits with them all you like, but please don't give them sweets, as I have special sweets set aside for them."

[Walking-Iris]

Well we eat a vegetarian diet. Even the kids. But my only other food no-nos would be additives. Colors and certain preservatives etc. Basically the stuff you find in junk food (like pop tarts or doritos). They really make my kids hyper active. We try to eat real food. Lots of fruit and veggies and a variety of grains and legumes and eggs and organic dairy. I also try to stay away from "white" carbs. I use olive oil almost exclusively (except baked goods). Sweets are usually homemade and not a regular thing.

 

I'm cool with real butter, and we drink 2% (don't like the taste of any other) although no one in my family are every day milk drinkers. My kids are allowed chocolate but we really avoid "candy"---suckers, gummis, taffy, nerds etc...---regardless of organic or natural etc. We never salt anything beyond the bare minimum needed to cook or bake. Our seasoning usually comes from pepper or garlic, basil or oregano.

 

My dh has an obsession with "fake" meats that I'm trying to break (mainly due to cost). He seems to think every thing in the world needs to be a sandwich. :lol: So I make homemade "garden veggie" patties. I also try to limit the juice the kids drink. OJ is fine and we do smoothies and I have a juicer. But I try to steer clear of bottled juices for the most part. My kids know that water needs to be the predominant drink throughout the day.

 

None of them have ever had a soda. My oldest had one small glass of Sprite during a stomach bug but that is all really.

 

I do agree that what they eat as kids matter in the long run. My inlaws and sil and bil for example think I'm depriving them of some essential childhood fun when they don't get the cotton candy or the soda. Or french fries and hamburgers from micky d's. My MIL even went so far as to bring them occasional happy meal toys because she felt so bad for them. But honestly at this point my kids don't even consider some of that real food. My kids would look at a garish colored sprinkled sugar cookie and wonder why anyone would eat that. Nor do they beg and plead to go to fast food places because they know it's not what we eat. I save a ton of money not taking kids out for Burger King. ;)

 

I definitely agree that diet choices start young.

[elise1mds]

My DD has congenitally high LDL cholesterol, so I do have to watch our fat selections carefully, but I still cook with healthful oils (no corn/vegetable/canola oil... we use olive oil, butter, and occasionally lard). We eat a lot whole grains and basically follow a low-carb diet without actually following a low-carb diet, if that makes any sense.

 

It's funny... when DD was going to school and I was purchasing the school lunches, she had higher cholesterol. When we found out that her cholesterol was still high, I started sending her lunches on a hunch. Her cholesterol dropped several points in just a month. The pediatrician wasn't surprised - school lunches, for all their 'requirements,' are notoriously unhealthful. She also lost some of her extra weight (she wasn't overweight, she just looked thick) when she stopped eating all the superfluous carbs.

 

I also have DD take omega-3 vitamins daily for her mood. They don't help DS with his ADHD, but they go a fair way toward helping DD control her mood issues.

[RoundAbout]

I don't believe in low-fat anything. My son drinks full fat milk, cheese, and real butter. He has always been about 97th percentile for height and around 30% for weight so we're talking complete string bean here. Even before going low carb myself I was trying to give him lots of fat and protein.

 

He eats lower-carb than most kids but not as much as DH and I. Mostly I try to avoid filler food that has little nutritional value (crackers, bread, pasta, white rice). He gets these probably once a day but I make sure they are paired with lots of protein and fat. The big thing I've done from day one is no juice at home ever. I am very judicious with fruit because I've seen too many kids eat unlimited fruit and develop a taste for sweet and become pickier about veggies.

 

Typical day for my 5 year-old might look something like:

 

Breakfast: eggs, sausage, whole milk

Lunch: grilled turkey and cheese with side of broccoli

Dinner: Salmon patty, black beans, carrot sticks, whole milk

Dessert: fruit (occasionally ice cream).

Snacks: nuts, olives, cheese, fruit, veggies+hummus.

 

When we eat out he can get whatever he wants except for soda.

 

If we follow a lower carb diet and he gets plenty of exercise then he sleeps like a baby for 11 hours a night and we have zero behavior problems. I can always tell when his diet or sleep is off just from behavior. Seriously, its like night and day in terms of attitude.

[LisaKinVA]

Sugar is what I really watch with the kids. Since we have gone to whole fats, my kids don't get as hungry any more. They eat at least 2 cups of veggies (usually raw) each day, with broccoli and carrots being their favorites. They will eat spinach and salads, too (salad is a staple item...). We have increased the meat and cheese they eat, but summer mornings it's usually a smoothie with whole milk and whole yogurt and frozen fruit and a muffin I've made (the oatmeal-orange-cranberry are really yummy and very filling). That basic breakfast fills them up until lunch time, and lunch usually fills them up until dinner.

 

We haven't cut out bread for them, but grains are not the basis of their calories.

 

All of my children have gotten leaner with this approach. My oldest is noticeably leaner, although he still gained weight this year and only grew an inch (his foot grew 3 sizes). They all have plenty of energy...my underweight girl is still underweight, though. And my "overweight" boy (40th percentile for height, 85th percentile weight) you can still see his "six pack". The doctor (although she commented on it), said it's obviously not an issue, because the children are obviously fit. My boys (and oldest daughter) are just obviously muscular...like me :D

[SKL]

School lunches! They frighten me. My kids are starting 1st grade next month, so I'm trying to figure this out. My tentative plan is to pack them a pbj with fruit/veg 4 days per week, and let them choose 1 day to eat the school lunch. I'm also wondering how to figure out snacks, since they will be in the "late room" for some hours after school lets out. They used to enjoy cereal bars, but now they hate them for some reason. (I shop at a crunchy store so our cereal bars etc. are healthy.) One of my kids is likely to eat her teacher if she doesn't get a snack in the afternoon.

[justLisa]

I wish I had started my kids right off the bat with LC/HF. They got used to certain things and it's hard for them to never have them. So I do give in sometimes. I've got one kid who loves rice and noodles. The other will eat anything. Seriously, anything I put in front of him he eats. So he is easy. But my 10 year old, no he wants carbs. Lots of carbs.

 

No kidding. I wish I never would have done the pastas and bread with everything, but that's how I grew up. I always wondered what the heck was wrong with me in highschool when I starved and nothing happened.

 

I have a husky boy, skinny girl. Girl could live on carbs, boy eats anything. I still give him full fats, whole foods. He doesn't have a sweet tooth either. DH was stocky growing up, so was my dad. But we are Polish and tend to be. We are never going to be lanky. DS is 8 and tall, he can literally pick me up off the ground. He is very healthy. He will eat 2 poached eggs, with full fat greek yogurt and some fruit and be good for hours. Or, at grandmas on Saturday she would make him toast, toast and more toast, and of course it's all over. We have started talking here about the importance of asking for what your body needs while over there. Thankfully my dad is a mean griller, so he gets great food over there now. I had to talk to mom about it, and she's on par now. DS actually prefers to eat like me.

[LG Gone Wild]

My mom fed us super healthy, nutritious food but I was always chubby and stocky. My dd has a *slight* tendency towards that. She loves *superfluous* carbs so I have to keep watch that she is taking in vegetables and fruits.

 

I am pretty relentless about limiting greasy, salty, sugary foods. We use real fats. NO DEEP FRYING.

[SKL]

Yeah it seems some schools have started serving better stuff, but not around here. The breakfast is particularly bad (Pop Tarts, french toast sticks, or super doughnut served with juice and fat free milk....just a sugary carb fest).

 

My kids' school doesn't do breakfast, but I looked at the lunch menu . . . basically every single day it's hot dogs, pizza, burgers, that type of stuff. EVERY day. And fries/chips EVERY day. That's party / travel / cookout food, not daily lunch. Yikes. Sad thing is, the kids will probably feel badly that they don't get to eat the "fun stuff" like their friends. (They do LOVE pbj, but "forbidden fruit" is so much cooler!)

[Amy in TX]

I used to have hard boiled egg molds. Basically you shove a hot pealed hard boiled egg into it and it came out looking like Hello Kitty's head.

 

:lol:

 

Oh my. I simply must have one of these.

[justLisa]

They make all sorts of shapes.

 

This is the one I had. Someone gave it to me though so I have no idea where to get one. I'm sure you could google it.

 

http://xmkairun.en.alibaba.com/product/303751505-212794736/hello_kitty_bento_tool_egg_mold_rice_mold.html

 

you can use it for rice too...

 

Oh I got a few of those from this Asian foods store! I don't have the patience for making elaborate bento stuff but it sure is cute!

[Seshet]

When it comes to food, our motto is "everything in moderation." I don't ban any food, unless it's because it's disgusting & I refuse to cook it. We have some sweets but not much. We eat some carbs, but don't go crazy with them. I don't buy low-fat foods, especially dairy (they just taste so much better when they are full-fat). I don't buy cereal often, as I find it a waste of money and mostly junk.

 

We eat meat. We could never be vegetarians. We like our meat too much. We do eat lots of fruits & veggies, though. We get at least 3 fruits each week. The kids each choose one & I choose the third. We also get several veggies each week. All of us eat salad. It's not uncommon for us to have 2 different veggies or a salad & a veggie at dinner.

 

We don't do a lot of convenience foods. The only things we regularly buy that can be considered convenience foods are plain pasta & bread. My family loves my homemade bread so much that I'd need to make 5-6 loaves a week as opposed to the one loaf of store bought.

 

Most of our meals are made from scratch, because it's healthier & tastes better. Soda is only allowed on occasion. The kids do get coffee regularly, though. The caffeine helps their ADHD. So, they each get one small mug of coffee most school days. I add just a little creamer (we use good quality flavored coffee and get flavored creamers as well). I add it to their coffee because they always add too much.

 

Both my kids are skinny & healthy. There has never been a concern about them being over weight. When ET1 hit puberty we didn't have a big problem of weight gain. At 14, ET1 is still just barely over 100lbs.

 

As for exercise, they get at least 1 hour outside every day that it is possible. They ride bikes & run around playing. We have a variety of exercise DVDs that they can use when the weather doesn't allow them outside. They aren't on teams for sports, but will play several sports with neighborhood kids or when we go to the park. We go for regular hikes as a family, and do archery as a family. So, they get plenty of exercise, at least one hour a day.

[Momof3littles]

Our whole family eats lower carb and higher fat. My kids typically eat things off of this list:

 

Breakfast:

cottage cheese (sometimes w/ tomatoes, salt, pepper)

full fat unsweetened yogurt, sometimes with some fruit, sometimes with a teensy touch of stevia

eggs

sausage

one minute muffin

dinner leftovers

occasionally a piece of sprouted wheat bread, but we don't keep it in the house all that often

coconut flour waffle

smoothie made unsweetened almond milk, when protein (Jay Robb or Jarrow unflavored), berries, a little stevia

hardboiled eggs

 

Lunch:

any of the above from breakfast

soups

chili

leftovers like drumsticks, etc.

raw veggies with whatever they are having

deli meat roll up (we look for nitrate/nitrite free) with cream cheese in the middle, sometimes a sliver of pickle

salad with a protein

chicken salad

salmon salad

burger

avocado with some leftovers

 

Dinner is usually 2-3 veggies and a protein

 

 

 

I have PCOS. My kids are not overweight but I'd like to keep my DD from being in a state of hyperinsulemia from the get go, having gone through infertility myself.

 

We do make LC baked goods with almond or coconut flour, or homemade ice cream with erythritol and stevia, etc. However, that's a once every 1-2 week thing at most. We freeze leftover smoothies into popsicle molds. I will heat them up some unsweetened almond milk with a tiny touch of NuNaturals stevia and a little sea salt, and they have "history and hot chocolate" time. We make "Frosties" out of ricotta, Hershey's special dark cocoa powder, erythritol, and unsweetened almond milk, and a little sea salt. Not every day, but this time of the year they have that maybe 1-2x every week or two.

 

THey do go out for the occasional ice cream cone, get the occasional dish of mac and cheese, etc. We don't deprive, but just aim for the above about 90 percent of the time. We focus on bringing healthy food into the house; I don't really "ban" anything, it just is a very small part of their diet or something they get once every week or two vs. daily. They do eat more fruit than I would. Bananas, citrus, etc. I stick mostly to berries, half a granny smith apple, occasionally a small peach (when in season), etc. They eat berries a LOT. I'm good with that! They do eat a good # of bananas per week along with other fruit that is too carby for me. But they are consuming far less sugar and grains than most kids their age. When we go out to eat, they order what they want.

 

Check the nomnom blog if you aren't averse to some language ;) SHe has 2 young boys who eat her paleo cooking.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Momof3littles

[LibraryLover]

I try to keep it to real food. Simple. Basic. Vegetables. Beans. Rice (Lundberg). Fruit. Our own chickens. Local beef, local fish or wild Salmon. Water for drinking. No or limited Franken foods (which include Quorn and Veggie Burgers made from GMO soy). Cold Pressed Olive Oils. Actual butter.

 

I keep in mind the Dirty Dozen etc.

 

I am often frustrated as well. Why does a tiny cup of organic yogurt contain 17 grams of sugar? Because it's low fat? There is no taste without fat. Give me real (plain) greek yogurt. I'll add fruit if we need to. A a little swirl of maple syrup. Or some cucumbers and lemon juice.

 

Few little 'packages' of food in lunches. No "Only 100 (empty!) Calories!" stuff. I admit, I make my 18 yr old son's lunch for work. He's off to college in the fall, and I want to do it. Lunch today was two apples, a container of a whole cut -up garden bell pepper, a whole sliced cucumber, salsa (our cherry tomatoes are growing!), blue organic corn chips (one of our fav treats) in a container, a granola bar. I can't break him of the peanut butter granola bar...it was organic, ;) yet only three grams of protein, but 10 grams of sugar. It's ridiculous! Still beats the McD's of most of the other counselors. Oh, and almond butter on Matthew's Bread. Mostly he takes dinner leftovers, as he doesn't care for sandwiches, but there were no leftovers this morning.

Edited July 24, 2012 by LibraryLover