Kathleen in VA Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I just thought I'd share an experience I had tonight as an example of why I appreciate this board and all the ladies here who may not be Christians (like me), but who nevertheless offer what I consider valid, reasonable, intelligent advice about a great many things. I was at a 4th of July outing where several people from my church (a church I have gone to for 22 years and where I have known these people for 22 years) were sitting around talking. One of them brought up a tv show (I'm thinking it was a sporting event) where a young girl sang "My Country, Tis of Thee." This person - someone I appreciate in many other ways - said that she was very annoyed that the little girl was "Japanese" and not "American." Well, I found that to be a rather ignorant pov - I'm sure I don't have to explain to y'all why I felt that way. This is a younger person - 25 or so - and I realize many of her viewpoints were ingrained in her by a not-so-sweet relative who was quite intolerant of other races to say it mildly. I feel bad for her since she was raised in this environment and otherwise is an extremely sweet, darling person - honest. I was actually shocked that she would say something so unenlightened, and I let her know so. All that to say, I think being a part of this board gave me courage to speak my mind and to try to set her straight and not just clamp my mouth shut to keep the peace. I wanted to show her how her pov was actually very unAmerican and that she needed to think through her initial response to the singer and realize that an "American" can be of any cultural background. I'm still kind of reeling to think she didn't really get it after I tried very kindly to educate her. The point is she goes to my church, she's a member of my church, we agree on many things, but boy oh boy, we sure did not see eye to eye on that one. I do chalk up a lot of her pov to immaturity and bad influences, but I just wanted to say that it doesn't matter which group you identify with, you will still find folks within that group who look at things in a very different way than you do. We, here at this board, are a group of homeschool parents. We have that in common and that is why I come here - not because a lot of you are Christians (not really sure about that anyway). So many non-Christians on this board have given me practical help using the boards, encouragement, and offered excellent advice. I would hate to miss out on that. The only time I think you are going to find someone who shares the same exact pov you have is when you look in the mirror. I think people *need* to interact with folks who do not agree with them. What if that person I encountered tonight always stuck with people who agreed with her? She may never have realized that her pov was not universally held (she was rather shocked that I didn't agree with her). It was good for her to hear someone else's pov on the matter. Yikes! If she only talked to people who agreed with her she'd have no idea that she might be wrong on the matter. OK, I see I'm rambling. I sure hope this made sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMom2One Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 What an eloquent and well thought out post. I appreciate all you said. I've been a follower of Christ most of my life, and have often found that I don't agree with everyone at church all the time too. There are times that I am so embarrassed for the church that I want to run and hide. We have to follow our conscience as God leads us, even to patiently teach others just as you tried to do tonight. I have friends from many cultures, lifestyles and backgrounds, and I love them all. My brother and some of our friends are gay, I have friends that are Budhists, Hindu and Islamic...and God tells me to love them all even though we are different in many ways. I've been concentrating on Christ's teachings rather than being religious, and because of that I've learned to become more compassionate. Thank you again for your post. I tried to give you rep, but I ran out tonight. Blessings, Lucinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Way to go Kathleen :thumbup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndsWell Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I think people *need* to interact with folks who do not agree with them. Absolutely. Being around a diversity of backgrounds and opinions should serve to strengthen your own (or change) through reflection and questioning. This is a great story - thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I commend you for speaking up to that girl! She may not have wanted to let on at the time, but I suspect your comments will have taken root. At least now she may question the beliefs she was brought up with (a tad). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Beautifully said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 Wow, I was so hesitant to hit the "Submit Thread" button last night because I was sure I was going to stick my foot in my mouth without realizing it. I knew it was a sensitive topic and was kind of scared of checking the board this morning for fear of finding I had been chastised publicly for saying something rude (can you tell how insecure I am??). Anyway, I am truly relieved and thankful for all the kind, encouraging comments I have read in response to my post. Thanks, guys. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I knew it was a sensitive topic and was kind of scared of checking the board this morning for fear of finding I had been chastised publicly for saying something rude (can you tell how insecure I am??).That was such a respectful post (even to the person you disagreed with), I don't see how anyone could take exception. Kudos to you for saying something. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genie Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Wow, I was so hesitant to hit the "Submit Thread" button last night because I was sure I was going to stick my foot in my mouth without realizing it. I knew it was a sensitive topic and was kind of scared of checking the board this morning for fear of finding I had been chastised publicly for saying something rude (can you tell how insecure I am??). Anyway, I am truly relieved and thankful for all the kind, encouraging comments I have read in response to my post. Thanks, guys. :) I find myself holding my tongue a LOT in those kinds of situations. I'm often worried I'll come off as completely judgmental when all I really wanted to do was share my opinion. Although this online format can be a hindrance to communication, where you can't hear someones tone and what not, it can also be a valuable tool to use in learning to phrase your words in a way that gets your point across in (hopefully) a non-offensive manner. If only you could edit the spoken word!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 As a non-christian I value these boards for precisely the same reasons. I have tried to do the same with people like your young lady, but I don't think I had nearly the level of your grace and decorum. Well done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Atl Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 All that they said and more! :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diane~KJ Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I really enjoyed your post, and couldn't have agreed with you more. I'm sort of a buddhist/wiccan gal myself and I don't readily advertise that little fact about myself, mainly because that is just one part of me, and I don't want to put people off about me on this board. I'm glad I found this board and everyone has been very helpful. Having the common interest of homeschooling our children is no small thing and I find everyone's point of veiw to be wonderful and helpful. I'm glad you were able to speak your conscience in an uncomfortable situation, I know how difficult that can be. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another. I hope that you sparked something in the thoughts of that unfortunate girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB in NJ Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Well done, Kathleen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosaicmind Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I have found that the most judgmental and condemning people are those that attend my church and call themselves "Christians." I accepted Christ when I was 16 and I am soon to be 40, but I do not profess to be sinless by any stretch of the imagination. I have always been taught to see others as Christ sees them, broken and yet beautiful at the same time. I appreciate your point of view, which lines up with mine and yet we are different (imagine that). I have friends who believe that they cannot associate with those that are not of their faith and I say that is hypocrisy. How can we be believers and yet dissociate ourselves from the world? Doesn't this contridict what Christ himself did as he walked among tax collectors, prostitutes, murderers, and the like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 I have found that the most judgmental and condemning people are those that attend my church and call themselves "Christians." I accepted Christ when I was 16 and I am soon to be 40, but I do not profess to be sinless by any stretch of the imagination. I have always been taught to see others as Christ sees them, broken and yet beautiful at the same time. I appreciate your point of view, which lines up with mine and yet we are different (imagine that). I have friends who believe that they cannot associate with those that are not of their faith and I say that is hypocrisy. How can we be believers and yet dissociate ourselves from the world? Doesn't this contridict what Christ himself did as he walked among tax collectors, prostitutes, murderers, and the like? Yup! ITA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGator Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 This person - someone I appreciate in many other ways - said that she was very annoyed that the little girl was "Japanese" and not "American." Well, I found that to be a rather ignorant pov - I'm sure I don't have to explain to y'all why I felt that way. I'm having a hard time understanding how this "ignorant pov" can be considered Christian in any vaguest stretch of the imagination. Let's not confuse people who meet in buildings with crosses on them to be Christians. I consider people who love and follow Jesus and his words to be Christians. John 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command. We don't start on our journey with Jesus perfect, but if we are following Jesus we will grow to be like him, a heart of love and kindness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Way to go! I'm impressed that you spoke up so eloquently. I asked about just this sort of thing yesterday in the post about my DD, and you give yet another example of how to handle the situation well. I agree with those who've said that being a Christian doesn't always mean that you completely agree with all the others who profess the same, just as being secular, Buddhist, Wiccan or whatever would assume you do so. We are individuals that don't do well lumped into a category, and we DO sharpen each other when we share our divergent points of view. Good girl! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I'm having a hard time understanding how this "ignorant pov" can be considered Christian in any vaguest stretch of the imagination. Let's not confuse people who meet in buildings with crosses on them to be Christians. I consider people who love and follow Jesus and his words to be Christians. John 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command. We don't start on our journey with Jesus perfect, but if we are following Jesus we will grow to be like him, a heart of love and kindness. Well, what if you are a Christian, truly loving and following the teachings of Christ (and whatever else your Christianity entails), and you've never been shown a different way? What if politics gets mixed up with faith at your church? What if all you have heard about Asians is that they are not, nor ever could be, Americans? It might not be a broadly Christian POV per se, but it could be a POV that is held by a sincere Christian who has a blind spot about other ethnicities and races. You spoke of a journey -- is a person less of a Christian at the start of the journey than at the end? (I know some believe this is so.) What if this person was only at the beginning of her journey to a heart of love and kindness? Just because she was ignorant (literally, "lacking information"), does that mean she was not Christian? I'd say a Christian can *hold* an ignorant POV just like any other human being can. I also think Kathleen's gentle correction will bear fruit in encouraging her toward another, broader, more informed POV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Buckin' Longhorn Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 :hurray: Hurray for you, Kathleen. It sounds like you handled this situation with grace and dignity, while educating at the same time. That's an extremely difficult combination to master. Many of us here try, but . . . well . . . I'm sure you've seen the results, LOL. You'll get no tomatoes from me. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 I'm having a hard time understanding how this "ignorant pov" can be considered Christian in any vaguest stretch of the imagination. Let's not confuse people who meet in buildings with crosses on them to be Christians. I consider people who love and follow Jesus and his words to be Christians. John 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command. We don't start on our journey with Jesus perfect, but if we are following Jesus we will grow to be like him, a heart of love and kindness. ***WARNING*** High Level of Christian Content in this Reply. I hope everyone reads it just to be able to get to know me, but please feel free to skip it if you feel it might offend. I understand completely. Well, first of all I didn't start this thread to attack the person I mentioned as having an ignorant pov. I never said or implied that her unfortunate pov was Christian. Not sure where you're getting that. I said *she* is a Christian. I believe Christians can be brought up in ignorant households and not realize they even hold anti-Christian viewpoints until someone who really cares about them takes a minute to point it out to them - in love. I think someone can trust that Christ died on the cross to pay for their sins and still carry around the residue of their faulty upbringing. I mean, isn't that kind of the point? Christ died to save sinners, not perfect people. Just because we recognize we are sinners and desire to follow Christ doesn't automatically transform us into perfect human beings. I think it can be especially hard for someone who has been taught from birth that a certain pov is truth and then becomes a Christian along the way may have a ton of baggage to unload. I think patience is in order here. I'm sure thankful for the folks I've met along the way who've been patient with my ignorant pov's - especially those I held as a young adult. In the case of the individual in question, the person who so wrongly indoctrinated her is no longer a part of her life. He abandoned the family (also not a very Christian thing to do), ran off with another woman and left his wife with the burden of raising their large family alone. He most definitely was NOT a Christian (he acknowledges this himself and at least had the decency to accept full blame for fracturing the family) and that is where she got her ideas from. It breaks my heart to see her so misled and not even realize it. I pray for her and hope that by the example of others around her, including me, she will eventually be able to shake off that devastating childhood indoctrination in bigotry. For now, I have to just be patient and lead her to question her own beliefs - to challenge her to hold them up to the light of God's word to see if they agree. She has a long way to go, but I consider her a victim and her father is the perpetrator of the crime. I hope this doesn't come across as "snarky" - I just feel the need to defend this poor girl. She said what she said in a very innocent way not at all expecting a voice of dissent from the crowd - that speaks volumes to me. She just doesn't get it. I really don't see anywhere in the Bible that says someone who claims Christ as their Savior should then be able to replicate the perfection of Christ in all their decisions and behavior from that moment on. I'm very thankful for a Savior who keeps picking me up, dusting me off, and setting me back in the right direction. I will never attain perfection on this earth. The whole point of Christ's life is that He lived the life that we *cannot* live. The process of sanctification is lifelong. I think this is why there are so many verses in the NT about forgiveness. When we become Christians we become forgiven, not perfect. Our lives are about forgiveness - needing it and giving it. "Be ye kind, one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Ephesians 4:32 How grateful I am that it is not up to me to live the perfect life - Christ lived it for me. I need His forgiveness, I need others' forgiveness, I need to forgive others. We all just to need to have patience with each other and keep pointing each other to Christ. This is why I put my faith in Christ, not Christians. Sorry about that little sermon for all you that are not Christians. I was directing these comments to those who are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGator Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 It might not be a broadly Christian POV per se, but it could be a POV that is held by a sincere Christian who has a blind spot about other ethnicities and races. You spoke of a journey -- is a person less of a Christian at the start of the journey than at the end? (I know some believe this is so.) What if this person was only at the beginning of her journey to a heart of love and kindness? I'm sorry, I did not mean to say or imply that the girl was not a Christian. I am horrified by the POV and the thought it is held or acceptable by some in the Christian community. If someone is a Christian there will be growth. Only Jesus will judge who is and who isn't a follower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 I'm sorry, I did not mean to say or imply that the girl was not a Christian. I am horrified by the POV and the thought it is held or acceptable by some in the Christian community. If someone is a Christian there will be growth. Only Jesus will judge who is and who isn't a follower. Well, I see you were posting this while I was gathering my thoughts for the post above. Now I feel like I jumped all over you. Sorry about that. I guess I was feeling very defensive in regards to a girl for whom I care very much. Forgive me? Oh, and you are right - only Jesus really knows who are His and who just say they are. I too was horrified - completely stunned - but I did not find it acceptable and I do look at her age and upbringing. I have the benefit here of having much more info that the rest of you in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in MO Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 What if this person was only at the beginning of her journey to a heart of love and kindness? and I've probably been in the same position myself---maybe not on the subject of race, but perhaps some other issue. Unfortunately, though, I have met some well-intentioned Christians in our area who have held deep-seated prejudices against Christians of a particular denomination (I'd rather not say which one). Some of the ignorance and misconceptions are very strongly held, and over time I've had to gently correct, as the opportunity presents itself, without trying to become "preachy" myself. Some of these people have been Christians for many, many years. I think it takes a while in these cases for convictions to change--and perhaps they may never change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGator Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I guess I was feeling very defensive in regards to a girl for whom I care very much. Forgive me?quote] I forgive you. It is a sore issue with me. I've been raised in the church all my life and know so many that have been Christians for 20, 30, and 40 years and don't show growth or a desire to know Jesus more. (They are not new Christians.) I have to leave it in Jesus' hands and accept that he knows who belongs to him. This issue gets me really upset. Jesus has his own purposes and plans for the his church. I see the world changing so quickly..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 I guess I was feeling very defensive in regards to a girl for whom I care very much. Forgive me?quote] I forgive you. Thanks:). Oh, and I love Jane, too. Great quote from Lady Catherine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGator Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Thanks:). Oh, and I love Jane, too. Great quote from Lady Catherine. Jane knew how to express her frustrations and opinions in kind and loving ways in a time when womens' (especially an unmarried poor womens') were not welcomed or respected. Her heroines stood up to the "Lady Catherine's" of her day with lady-like grace, dignity and elegance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana in OR Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I have found that the most judgmental and condemning people are those that attend my church and call themselves "Christians." I accepted Christ when I was 16 and I am soon to be 40, but I do not profess to be sinless by any stretch of the imagination. I have always been taught to see others as Christ sees them, broken and yet beautiful at the same time. I appreciate your point of view, which lines up with mine and yet we are different (imagine that). I have friends who believe that they cannot associate with those that are not of their faith and I say that is hypocrisy. How can we be believers and yet dissociate ourselves from the world? Doesn't this contridict what Christ himself did as he walked among tax collectors, prostitutes, murderers, and the like? In my political life, I meet with people frequently who have a different political (and religious) pov than me, many who I find to be hard working, decent citizens, if not intellectually engaging and enjoyable company. In my evangelical, Christian circle, I am sometimes shocked by the snide remarks and eyerolls I receive that I would even associate with such individuals. It is sad, and it makes my stomach turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinmom Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Well, what if you are a Christian, truly loving and following the teachings of Christ (and whatever else your Christianity entails), and you've never been shown a different way? What if politics gets mixed up with faith at your church? What if all you have heard about Asians is that they are not, nor ever could be, Americans? It might not be a broadly Christian POV per se, but it could be a POV that is held by a sincere Christian who has a blind spot about other ethnicities and races. You spoke of a journey -- is a person less of a Christian at the start of the journey than at the end? (I know some believe this is so.) What if this person was only at the beginning of her journey to a heart of love and kindness? Just because she was ignorant (literally, "lacking information"), does that mean she was not Christian? I'd say a Christian can *hold* an ignorant POV just like any other human being can. I also think Kathleen's gentle correction will bear fruit in encouraging her toward another, broader, more informed POV. You are a wise woman, Pam! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Wow, I was so hesitant to hit the "Submit Thread" button last night because I was sure I was going to stick my foot in my mouth without realizing it. I knew it was a sensitive topic and was kind of scared of checking the board this morning for fear of finding I had been chastised publicly for saying something rude (can you tell how insecure I am??). Anyway, I am truly relieved and thankful for all the kind, encouraging comments I have read in response to my post. Thanks, guys. :) It's a good thing my mother spent so much time trying to teach me tact, or I'd be a lot worse! I've found though, as time goes on, it's not the situations where I've put my foot in it that come back to haunt me. It's the situations where I kept my mouth closed and I shouldn't have. Moral to my story is "Don't be wussy, Rosie!" :) Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy in IL Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I also value the diversity in this thread. I wish I had more of it in real time. I live in a big city, so we are around people of all sorts of races, nationalities, religions, etc, all the time. There is a difference between just walking by diversity and actually conversing and getting to know people. I was made quite aware of this about two weeks ago when my children met a neighborhood child. They were playing together and found out the little girl is Muslim. I was shocked when my oldest asked me, "Mom, is it okay to be friends with a Muslim?" I told her it absolutely was okay. I realized then that all her friends are from church, and she has never had a friend with a diffferent faith than ours. She has taken dance and played sports with children of different faiths, but this is the first real friend she has had who isn't from our church or a similar church. I think it is so important for my children to learn to understand and be friends with many different people. In the process they are also learning to define their worldview and solidify their faith. They are learning that they can be friends with someone and respect them without needing to think and believe the same about everything. Just like the op stated there are things that I don't see eye to eye on with people in our own church too. If we only had relationeships with people just like us, it seems life would get rather dull and beliefs wouldn't be challenged and sharpened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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